Hey friends, need a little quick help with some fact links about the 1% screwing the 99%

[navarth]

I know it's lame of me to ask, but I need to do this quick so I'm going to ask for some links I can post. The google search is going too slowly and I'm hoping that a bunch of you will be able to help me with some undeniable facts I can post. I've been carrying on a conversation/argument with a guy on facebook about the Occupy Patriots and he's...not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I'm just not ready to give up on him. He's clearly bought into the meme that Occupy is all about jealousy of the rich (classic projection there??) and I've finally wrangled him into a spot where he's asking for facts.

I'm going to continue searching and googling but if some of you good folks can offer assistance, who knows? Maybe I can reach this guy. I've gone out of my way not to use ad hominem (tempted though I may be, he really is a doofus) so I don't think his mind is totally closed.

Any help is greatly appreciated. Please keep it simple! As I said this guy is not the smartest person you'll ever run into. But I hope to reach him, and I'll continue my own research in the meantime.

Thanks so much,

Navarth

[lumberjack_jeff]

1. Massive inequality destroyed Rome.

It's doing the same thing here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/romans/fallofrome_article_01.shtml#two

[navarth]

5. thanks, Mr. lumberjack

Appreciate the link. I think it would be good to show this guy that inequality is bad; but he needs facts about how the 1% rig the system to create the inequality.

I like your Smedley Butler avatar. Good on ya.

[Johnson20]

15. Well,

illegal immigration and the Visigoths may have had just a little to do with it as well.

http://www.worldhistory.org/2008/09/illegal-immigrants-and-the-end-of-the-late-roman-empire/

Also read Heather's book.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/How+immigration+destroyed+Rome.+Oxford+historian+Peter+Heather+has...-a0141907543

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0JZS/is_3_22/ai_n24981808/

[lumberjack_jeff]

16. As more and more wealthy romans were exempted from taxation

... and those below were impoverished, the empire couldn't simultaneously pay an army to repel the visigoths and build monuments to the emperors coolness.

It all boiled down to wealth concentration.

[Johnson20]

23. See my remark below.n/t

[Blue_Tires]

17. The sourcing on that site is shaky, to say the least

And titles like this don't help their credibility:

"Canada Is Not A Real Country, And Why Americans Should Care"

[Johnson20]

22. This is a direct quote from

the OP's source:

"A two-stage process occurred between the battle of Hadrianople in 378 AD, when the emperor Valens and two-thirds of his army (upwards of 10,000 men) fell in a single afternoon at the hands of an army of Gothic migrants, to the deposition of Romulus Augustulus nearly a century later....

This process created the successor kingdoms. Stage one consisted of immigration onto Roman soil, followed by a second stage of aggressive expansion of the territory under the migrants' control. All of it was carried forward at the point of the sword.

The central Roman state collapsed because the migrants forcibly stripped it of its tax base.

The central Roman state collapsed because the migrants forcibly stripped it of the tax base which it had used to fund its armies, not because of long-term 'organic' transformations."

Did you read the OP's source?

[Blue_Tires]

24. Of course I read it

My differences with the author aside (Based upon my research as a student years ago "illegal" immigration may have been number 9 or 10 on the list of things that brought down the Romans), any "history" blog promoting birtherism doesn't have a leg to stand on...

I did a search for that book and it's pretty much being pimped only on RW blogs, so that raises suspicions as well...

[cbayer]

2. What are your thoughts on how the 1% have screwed the 99%?

[navarth]

7. referring to me?

My thoughts are no doubt the same as yours...I think the 1% buys elections to control how the system gets rigged, for instance, using Citizen's United to do it with impunity.

But you see, I've already done all this with the guy. What I need are absolute rock solid facts that he can't discount as 'just my opinion'.

Does that answer your question? I'm not sure if I understood it. In any event, thanks for the response, I do appreciate it.

[cbayer]

10. I guess I am unsure as to what you mean by "rock solid facts".

Could you be more specific?

[navarth]

12. um,

I guess I can take a run at being more specific....sorry if I'm not clear enough, doing this in-between operations at work.

If I can find documentation of individuals in the 1% gaming the system to screw the 99%, he won't be able to say it's just my opinion.

I found this one

http://money.msn.com/investing/latest.aspx?post=0844157f-5e1d-4785-a57a-3fce887ef3e1

and it's a pretty good example; I just need more and I was hoping you good folks here would have a good assortment of them.

The Bill Moyers link is an excellent idea, I just want to get all I can before I go back to the fray.

I hope it's a bit clearer now, if not please accept my apology.

[cbayer]

14. For a comical look, send him this piece from the Daily Show

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-january-24-2012/jason-jonez-prezentz-mtv-s-tax-avoidance-strategies-for-high-net-worth-individualz

The bottom line is this - the more money you have, the more options you have for keeping it. The tax code shelters the rich, while leaving the poor completely exposed.

[navarth]

25. thanks! eom

[Kellerfeller]

3. I'm not sure what kind of facts would help

Determining the "real" motivation of the movement would be difficult to prove.

Even if they were carrying signs saying " this isn't about jealousy", your "friend" would/could easily discount them as being propaganda to hide what he believes to be the "real" motivation since jealousy would feed into the criticism.

[navarth]

8. Precisely, thank you.

This is the very gist of my problem. His mind is almost completely closed and he'll go to any length to disbelieve me, it seems.

If I have simple facts about one percenters using their wealth in unfair ways to rig the system it might reach this guy.

Thanks for the response, appreciate it.

[cbayer]

4. A good place to start would be the first episode of Moyers & Company

http://billmoyers.com/episode/on-winner-take-all-politics/

[navarth]

9. Duh!! Why didn't I think of this one...

I saw this show, it's an excellent piece for my needs. No guarantee this guy will watch it, but it's excellent.

Thanks!

[limpyhobbler]

6. try this link (Mother Jones infographs)

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph

They have lots of infographics.











http://assets.motherjones.com/politics/2011/inequality-who'swinning_3.png




And they have many more on there.

[navarth]

11. These are excedllent, thanks

The problem is that this guy doesn't seem to care about inequality, he repeatedly posts replies about how the rich started out as poor, etc. I've addressed that many times, it's like talking to a poodle.

I will use these, but what I need most is a collection of hard facts that will illustrate how the 1% games the system to screw the 99%.

Thanks very much for your help!

[kestrel91316]

13. The full text of the US tax code should fit the bill. It is written by the 1% to

ensure they STAY the 1%.

[PETRUS]

18. This person should care about inequality.

Higher levels of wealth inequality produce bad economic results in total. Inequality also correlates with higher levels of violent crime, worse health and educational outcomes, and lower socioeconomic mobility, among other problems. And there is a preponderance of evidence to suggest that extreme inequality is incompatible with democracy. Regression studies show that our elected officials are unresponsive to the interests of the middle class (and poor) unless those interests are also supported by the very rich.

The occasional poor person does get wealthy, but there are always outliers. And in some ways that only proves the central point - our economic system is one in which a very few people do fabulously well while many others struggle. Half the wealth in the Fortune 400 is inherited. A person born in the bottom 20% has a 1 in 5 chance of ever cracking the top 50%, let alone making it to the top 20%, 10%, or 1%.

Here is an example of one way people with deep pockets can game the system:

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/npr-does-fluff-piece-for-private-equity

Note that it happens at the expense of the taxpayer.


Here is a letter from an investment fund manager describing the 1%, their wealth, and where it comes from:

http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/investment_manager.html

Note that he questions whether or not these financial games are adding any value to the economy or simply diverting funds upward.

[navarth]

19. Oh of course he should! Problem is...

He won't admit it (intellectual cowardice) but he obviously gets his info from the right wing bubbleshpere. I've called him out several times and he acts like I didn't say a thing.

I say that to illustrate why it's not likely that he's going to care about inequality; Rush Limbaugh, no doubt, has told him that the Occupy Patriots are just jealous.

Perhaps this good information you're providing will sway him? I try to never give up on anybody.

[PETRUS]

20. Good luck.

Often enough, these arguments are lost causes.

Your debate adversary probably believes that we have equality of opportunity and a level playing field. The myth of equality of opportunity should be easy enough to dispel - common sense is enough to understand that (for starters, access to quality education, nutrition, healthcare, etc. is largely a function of where and to whom you are born). But most people don't understand economics, finance, and the law well enough to fully grasp how heavily tilted the playing field is.

[navarth]

21. Ha. Thanks...

I really have no idea if he'll respond. He's been pretty chicken shit throughout the discussion.

What kills me is this guy's supposed to be some kind of baptist preacher or something. Another friend called him on that, in effect bringing the jesus into it, with his purported comments about the money changers and wealthy people being unable to get into heaven...it had no effect.

But the hypocrisy bugs me and I hate the idea of this guy being able to spread his ill-informed shit to his 'flock'. Oh well....