General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNot only am I against the dp in all cases, I'm against prisons being hell holes.
I'm against super max prisons and extreme isolation. I'm against the mentality of "throw him into general population". I'm against demeaning, dehumanizing treatment of prisoners, even those who have committed the most heinous crimes. I'm against raping the rapists.
I believe that even the most depraved murderer should be treated with basic human dignity, and that's more about us than about the incarcerated murderer or rapist.
And no, I'm not calling for plush vacationland prisons. There's a wide gulf between "hell hole" and "vacationland".
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)Something about that the greatness of Nations should be judged upon how they treat their worst criminals.
Absolutely agree. "Payback" is not justice.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)Who else... thx
The prisons in this country seem almost designed to turn a nonviolent offender into a hardened criminal.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)And so am I.
Much of our culture is based on retribution and vengeance...and anyone who disagrees with them are called soft on crime.
Daemonaquila
(1,712 posts)when their barbaric methods have been shown only to perpetuate and expand criminal activity.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)If you are invested in the prison system or law enforcement....there a constant growing business is a good thing.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)OceanEcosystem
(275 posts)Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)was swinging all the way from being ambivalent to the death penalty to being totally opposed as you say, also to include war, drones, et al.
freedom fighter jh
(1,782 posts)Treating people badly does not teach them to improve their behavior -- quite the opposite.
The worst criminals often have a history of being abused. In a world where the rules seem to be that others beat up on you and you have no rights, it may be only natural to treat others the same way. Decent treatment, even in prison, can show people that there is a better way. No, not a country club, just a place where more pain and suffering do not reside around every corner.
Iggo
(47,571 posts)helveticas
(35 posts)durec
EastKYLiberal
(429 posts)Nonviolent criminals should get many chances and rehabilitation.
Once you harm someone, I don't give a fuck what happens to you. And neither should the rest of society.
Because there isn't one in the afterlife.
cali
(114,904 posts)what does it achieve for society?
And as I said, it's about who we are as a society as well as being about the perpetrator.
And what does your "hell on earth" look like? Into torture are you?
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)white_wolf
(6,238 posts)Your attitude is disgusting and barbaric.
pampango
(24,692 posts)You obviously have not learned that we teach people to respect "basic human dignity" by taking it away if they don't.
mzteris
(16,232 posts)With privatization, it became all about the profits. It's in their best interst to create hardened criminals who can't get out or become repeat customers.
Education, not in creation. Spend more on the former than the latter. Prison should be used for mental health and drug treatment, behavior modification therapy, job training skills.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts)are treated with respect and dignity and afforded educational and cultural opportunities in accordance with their racial, ethnic and spiritual preferences. Anything less is nothing but punishment, and no one would want to go there.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Netherlands to close prisons for lack of criminals.
http://vorige.nrc.nl/international/article2246821.ece/Netherlands_to_close_prisons_for_lack_of_criminals
sorefeet
(1,241 posts)The counry should be ashamed. I understand right from wrong and the need for punishment and treatment/rehab, and our system is nothing but a big FAIL. First, as many people who have been found innocent on DEATH ROW and released I can only imagine how many in regular prison/jail are innocent? Must be in the 10's of thousands out of the two plus million. Warehousing humans for profit has to be a human rights violation, it is so obviously corrupt. How many of our politicians have stock in the prison industrial complex? I have known several people in my life who have gone thru the system, have heard some bad stories. They are aware if you get in the system they don't want to let you go very easy. Some of the things are just to sad to repeat, and I'm not talking about rape, but how they let them die.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)I think we should punish felons, whether making them pay their victims, community service and other kinds of punishment that makes their lives uncomfortable. I think dangerous felons should be incarcerated somehow, but not in a prison, maybe a mental hospital or similar institution. All of them should hold down jobs to pay for their incarceration even if it's on the grounds of a facility.
cali
(114,904 posts)You couldn't very well house murderers and rapists with the non-offending mentally ill. I worked for an organization that advocated for the mentally ill and part of my territory was the criminal wing of the State Hospital. It was, in effect, a prison.
And what is a "similar institution" to a mental hospital? There is no such thing.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)other mentally ill would not be housed with the bad guys, I think it would run the private prisons out of business. I think they are an abomination anyway.
patrice
(47,992 posts)MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)Comatose Sphagetti
(836 posts)That the majority of those who champion harsh punishment are authoritarian, conservative, and christian.
Our penal system is a direct result of biblical 'eye-for-an-eye' bullshit.
petronius
(26,604 posts)Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)I agree we basically everything you said with one exception.
I used to work in a "supermax" prison. For three years I worked in a unit divided with death row inmates on the one side and "high risk potential" disciplinary detention inmates on the others. The unit was set up this way because death row inmates, at least in that system and state, were largely maintenance and trouble free, which allowed more time to deal with those on the other side.
The HRP inmates were a special case, and one that it is important to understand.
There are a good number of people in prison who are simply evil. I understand that some would like to pretend that this is not the case, but the reality is that it is true. I do not believe that this label applies to most inmates, even many who are convicted of murder, but it is a mistake to believe that it does not exist. There are some, however, who go WAY beyond this. There are some people who are not only evil, not only violent, but absolutely brilliant (or otherwise "gifted" as well. In my state's prison system, housing many tens of thousands of inmates, we had about twenty people who fell into this category. It is these men I want to tell you about.
These are men who devote every waking hour of the day towards one thought only: they want to kill ANYONE and EVERYONE they can. They will spend days, weeks, months, watching for repeated mistakes, for any pattern they can exploit, thinking of nothing but how they can main or kill. And again, and this is critical to understand, these people were -- almost to a man -- absolutely brilliant. They are people smart enough to figure out how to turn mac and cheese into an explosive, and then figure out how to get it into the cell next to theirs. Smart enough, and patient enough, to devote months towards studying what made people tick, and how to exploit it.
These men were kept in what amounted to a steel box. Think solid door, no gaps even on the bottom. None the less, I am not exaggerating when I say that there were many officers who quit before spending even a single day in that unit. It was always very dangerous. I understand that this is hard to believe, but there it is. You simply cannot understand how LETHAL people can be until you encounter a sociopathic genius. When a smart person turns their entire mind and purpose for living to murder, heaven help you if you are anywhere in the vicinity.
These are men who MUST be kept in the closest isolation possible. If you have ever worked with them you would understand.
Understand as well that all of us assigned to work with these guys (and there were not many) did everything in our power to treat them with respect, courtesy, and as much kindness and compassion as we possibly could. Even when, as so often happened, someone on our team got creamed by one of these guys, no one EVER retaliated or treated these monsters in anything less than a professional manner. Not that I ever saw, and if I had that officer would have been gone immediately. We didn't tolerate that nonsense at all.
Anyway, YES, I agree with much of what you say. But there is an exception. For every ten or twenty thousand inmates, there is that one exception. And any plan for reform should keep that in mind.
white_wolf
(6,238 posts)Of those few exceptions that you say are truly "evil" (I don't like that term personally) I'm curious to get your opinion on something. It seems to me that our prison system often takes decent people who made bad choices and turns them into "evil" people just to survive. A single person alone will have a hard time surviving in prison so they may have to turn to a gang for protection and by the time they get out they are worse than they were to start with. I'm just curious if that's true in your experience, do you think our prison system fails at a rehabilitation aspect and if so what can we do to improve on it?
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)Without a doubt. Everything you said is accurate, and if anything it understates the case.
In my opinion the entire system is flawed -- I suspect largely because we are asking the wrong things from it. Worse, these demands are contradictory. We want "justice" (defined as confinement in a horrific dehumanizing setting), while also expecting "rehabilitation." Then when they do get out, when they are finally free from their anti-social society, we do everything we can to ensure that their reintegration back into this society is as difficult as possible. The results are predictable. It would be silly were it not so tragic.
Criminals are people who, for any number of reasons, failed to make it in our society without getting caught breaking the law. Very few are monsters who were just born bad, they all have their stories to tell, and while in many cases these stories involve bad decisions and poor choices, they are mistakes and choices many of us might have made under similar circumstances and life-experiences. I am not pardoning criminals, simply saying that things are not as black and white as some suggest.
I once took on an abused dog with severe psychological problems. This is a dog that would literally piss all over the place if anyone so much as looked at her. No exaggeration, she was that terrified. She loved people, she wanted to be around them, but she was sooo scared she couldn't help herself. It took three or four months and a lot of work (and paper towels) before she would come when called (you couldn't look at her while doing it though). She loved to be petted, but even after all those months she would panic if you looked at her while petting her. She would sneak up to cuddle, but only behind you. It took years, but by the time she died no one would have ever suspected that this was that same dog -- she was everyone's buddy.
If I went about saving the dog the way our criminal justice system deals with inmates, instead of compassion and understanding and trying to work through her problems, I would have beaten her every time she failed to perform the way a proper dog should. It would not have worked with that dog and it does not work well with people.
Comatose Sphagetti
(836 posts)There is no 'evil.'
But there is illness.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)In any case, I understand your point.
aikoaiko
(34,184 posts)I'm fine with providing these needs as a basic human dignity.
white_wolf
(6,238 posts)From what I've heard even guards and wardens can be in danger at times, so I highly doubt your average inmate is safe.
aikoaiko
(34,184 posts)Its expensive though.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)This OP is the best I have seen in a while.
markpkessinger
(8,401 posts)And one about which I am in 100% agreement with you. It amazes me that people don't seem to grasp that, when you incarcerate someone, for any period of time, separating him/her from everything he or she cares about -- from their friends, from their family, indeed from their life -- that is already a HUGE punishment in and of itself. The idea that you have to heap additional punishment on top of that -- indeed, treating people like animals -- is simply barbaric. It serves no useful purpose (beyond satisfying a certain public sadism), and should have no place in a civilized society.
My aunt's ex-husband worked for many years as a prison guard at one of the State correctional facilities in PA. (He was also certified to teach publish school, and so taught adult education courses to the inmates in addition to his guard duties.) I remember during the '80s and '90s, when nearly all politicians of both parties were pandering to the "get tough on crime" sentiment that swept the country. At one point, there was a debate about having gymnasiums, weight-lifting equipment, etc. in prisons. Lots of people were making the argument that there should be nothing to "benefit" prisoners in any way, physically, psychologically or emotionally. But my (now former) uncle had a different take on things. He pointed out that a relatively small number of guards are charged with keeping inmates, and themselves, safe during their incarceration. He pointed out that the very LAST thing he, a as a guard, would want, is a population of prisoners, some of whom were seriously bad news, sitting around idle with nothing to occupy their time for long stretches. As he pointed out -- and I suspect he was right -- that's just creating a breeding ground for violence among inmates.
Coyote_Tan
(194 posts)I think prison should be hell on earth...
PufPuf23
(8,839 posts)Auntie Bush
(17,528 posts)And close all the private prisons while you're at it. Eliminate the death penalty and let out the casual drug users...create more halfway houses.
donheld
(21,311 posts)It's horrible and must end.