When progressive values clash: the problem of safety in ladies' rooms

[pnwmom]

The story of the Colorado transgender girl made me think about the bathroom issue again, though I want to say up front that I DON’T think young elementary school kids pose a risk to anyone in bathrooms. What I’ve been thinking about is only connected to adults.

It seems to me that the problem of transgender people and bathrooms is one where progressive values clash. On the one hand, we want to make sure that women can fully participate in public life, and for that they need to feel safe in the public sphere. We also want transgender women to feel safe – whether they are fully transitioned or they are biologically still men. But these two values are in conflict.

I do NOT think that true transgender girls and women (i.e., sincerely identifying as women) are a risk to other women. The problem is that true transgender women who happen to have the genitals, size, and muscles of men, can’t be reliably distinguished from straight men who COULD be a risk to women in restrooms.

Transgender women say they’re afraid of being attacked if they enter a mens’ room. But ciswomen are also afraid of being attacked by men and they don’t want them in the ladies’ room, where women and girls are particularly vulnerable. How do they know whether the masculine-looking person entering the ladies room is an innocent non-transitioned transgender woman or a violent straight man looking for a woman to corner?

Is it fair or reasonable that in order for a small number of transgender women who are biological men to feel safer, we should change the laws to make rest rooms LESS safe for all other women (that is, ciswomen and transgender women who are fully transitioned)?

Yes, women have gotten assaulted in bathrooms even though men aren’t allowed in ladies’ rooms, but at least with the current laws in place they have a fighting chance. If they see a man in a bathroom, they know they should exit it and call the authorities. If someone outside sees a man enter a ladies’ room, that person knows they should notify store security. If the laws are changed to routinely allow all transgendered females into ladies’ rooms – including women with the bodies of men -- won’t ladies’ rooms be less safe than they are now?


http://www.easyreadernews.com/26491/assault-mall-restroom/

An El Segundo woman claimed that a man struck her and threatened to sexually assault her last week in a Manhattan Village Mall restroom if she didn’t hand cash over to him, police said.
The victim, a 28-year-old woman, claimed to police that on May 9, she entered a stall in a public, women’s restroom in the mall, and, shortly after, heard a voice outside the stall say something that “tricked her” into opening it, authorities said. No one else was present in the bathroom at the time.
The woman told police that when she opened the stall door, a man threatened to sexually assault her if she didn’t give him money. She said that the man grabbed her and struck her arm against the stall door several times while trying to grab her purse.

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/pima-college-student-assaulted-robbed-in-bathroom/article_d7837978-65b9-11e2-8999-0019bb2963f4.html

Pima Community College campus police are looking for a man who robbed and assaulted a woman in a bathroom Friday evening.
The student was leaving a stall in a women’s restroom in the main building on the downtown campus when a man with a gun came out of an adjoining stall and ordered her back into her stall.
He “demanded she turn over some personal property and then attempted to sexually assault her,” said Commander Manny Amado, spokesman for the Pima Community College Police Department.

http://www.citynews.ca/2012/11/20/woman-sexually-assaulted-in-pizza-store-bathroom/

Toronto police have released a security image of a suspect wanted in a sex assault at a pizza store near Bathurst and St. Clair Avenue West on Monday evening.

Around 7:30 p.m., a woman was in the lady’s washroom at a pizza store when she was accosted by a man.

He confined her to the washroom stall and then sexually assaulted her, threatened her and robbed her.

http://www.cityoftaylor.com/content/man-charged-sexual-assault-store-police-urge-caution-when-using-public-restrooms

A 34-year-old Detroit man has been charged with several crimes after he allegedly sexually assaulted a woman in a Meijer store ladies bathroom.
Donald Garrett, 34, was arraigned in 23rd District Court Friday on charges of second-degree criminal sexual conduct, which carries a maximum prison term of five years; fourth-degree criminal sexual conduct, a two-year misdemeanor; and indecent exposure, a one-year misdemeanor.
A woman told police that shortly before 7 a.m. Thursday, she entered the ladies bathroom in the Taylor Meijer store at Pardee and Eureka roads. The woman said she noticed a man leaning over the top of the stall and staring at her.She told police said she immediately exited the stall and the man was still and partially undressed.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/11/15/3666530/uncc-alert-woman-sexually-assaulted.html

UNC Charlotte police are still investigating after a woman said she was sexually assaulted in a campus bathroom on Wednesday afternoon.
On Thursday, campus police made another appeal for people to contact investigators with information about the suspect.
Officers said the assault happened around 5 p.m. Wednesday when a man followed a woman into a bathroom on the first floor of the Fretwell Building, and sexually assaulted her. The suspect did not have a weapon, police said.

http://www.cp24.com/news/police-warn-public-after-man-spotted-in-girls-bathroom-at-school-1.1066354

Police are warning the public after a young girl reported being physically assaulted by a man at a Toronto school Tuesday afternoon.
According to police, the girl was in a washroom at Portage Trail Community Junior School, near Weston Road and Sidney Belsey Crescent, at about 2 p.m. when a man entered and grabbed her.

[ZombieHorde]

1. Have men been dressing up as women in order to attack women in the bathroom?

Those attacks sound really scary, but will preventing transgender folks from using the bathroom of their gender decrease the attacks?

[pnwmom]

2. Not all transgender females wear dresses or look "girly." And the issue isn't whether

such attacks will decrease -- why should they decrease if the laws against physical men in bathrooms don't change?

The issue is whether attacks will increase because people stop reporting it when they see men enter ladies' rooms.

[Demo_Chris]

3. Excellent points. My solution....

It seems to me that the problem is that we attempt to sort in the first place. We've got men, women, and a thousand variations and shades in between -- ALL are deserving of our respect and acceptance and all should be accomodated.

Back when I was in the Army, for a while I was assigned to a unit that had men and women, but the barracks we were using was an old WWII German Army barracks that was not designed with this in mind. There was only the one large bathroom / shower per floor. The army finally settled the issue by installing privacy partitions (like you see today around toilet stalls) around every toilet and shower head, and then making every bathroom multi-gender.

At first, when we heard this, everyone was a little bit freaked out. I mean, you couldn't expect a woman to go to the bathroom or shower with only a thin piece of sheet metal separating her from men! What would prevent the men, who as everyone knows are completely unable to control themselves at any time, from looking over or under the stall walls! It took all of a day for everyone to pretty much get over it.

I suspect that the same solution solves this as well. Just make single bathrooms with stalls. Men, women, trans, whatever, all go into the same large room. All do their business inside the stalls. I mean, it's not as if a sign saying "women only" is going to stop someone who is planning on assaulting a woman inside. Women are no more "safe" in there than they would be in some communal bath -- and arguably less so, as a would-be attacked is going to be dealing with twice the traffic and has no way of knowing who is going in the door.

[pnwmom]

4. I don't think we're going to have a universal remodeling of bathrooms anytime soon. n/t

[dsc]

6. I will cop to not being in women's rooms ever

but I have been in many, many public men's rooms and virtually all of them have completely walled off toilets. I would be amazed if women's rooms did have those. Men's rooms also have urinals which would just stop being used under a multi gender restroom.

[notadmblnd]

52. we have unisex restrooms where I live

in addition to the traditional male and female restrooms.

[Demo_Chris]

38. Likely not. It's an interesting topic

Because it says a great deal about us, not as humans but as a society.

Why do we do it this way? Is there some objective practical reason? Who are we attempting to protect, and from what? What illusions are we trying to maintain?

[Honeycombe8]

56. I would rather hunker down behind a bush behind the mall than use a multi-gender

bathroom.

It's not just the possibility of men looking (and they would, for sure...there are some real creeps in the world), or of sexual assault...but there's also the modesty factor. I am not going to use the bathroom in front of a man, stranger or friend, even tho his back may be turned or there's a cubicle sheet between us.

[uppityperson]

61. Do you live alone? Have you ever had a male visit your house? What did you do then?

I mean, of course, a male with whom you were not sexually intimate.

[Honeycombe8]

62. They use the bathroom down the hall with the door closed...they go into a separate room.

It's not the same room with a thin cubicle that isn't insulated or reach to the ceiling and fully down to the floor.

[uppityperson]

64. So if you have to urinate, you send them down the hall to another room and have them close the door?

You have a closed door, a hall, another closed door, between you in the toilet and the male? Do you do this just with adults or with children also?

[s-cubed]

5. When one of my employees began the transition in the early 1990's, restrooms were a BIG issue.

The transgender person (female to male) offered to only use certain restrooms, so that anyone who was uncomfortable could avoid the person. We made it clear to all that this was not company policy, but a courtesy being extended by the person. Even so, a few of my other male employees began a voluntary escort service to ensure there were not any threats directed at the person.

I'm not suggesting that this is a solution: we were in a building with about 500 employees, so most people knew each other at least by sight. Of course we did have visitors who were not aware.

My answer to the issue you pose, is that allowing transgendered women or girls to use the women's room is not likely to significantly increase the risk of assault. I am more concerned when the public restroom is down a long corridor, far away from anyone, as is often the case. I do think transgender boys and men are at significant risk in men's rooms.

Perhaps a solution is that all public places have "family restrooms" which are non gender specific and are located near men's and women's rooms. In the case of the grade school child, the school has an obligation to accommodate the child without discrimination or stimatization and to educate all members of the school community that bullying will not be tolerated.

[Honeycombe8]

57. I don't think the girls at that school should be forced to use the bathroom...

with someone with male genitals. It is not discriminating against the transgender child, in my view. It's very simple. If you have a wee-wee....you use the wee-wee bathroom. If you have a ya-ya, you use the ya-ya bathroom. Even if you wear ribbons in your hair if you have a wee-wee.

The girls have a right not to have the risk of being exposed to a wee-wee at their young age.

It's not a big deal to use a separate bathroom that has been designated uni-sex. The child and her parents have already made it their mission for the child to be different. And different s/he is. No big deal. Just use the uni-sex bathroom. The girls and their parents have rights, too.

[uppityperson]

59. If you, as an adult, can not write PENIS or VAGINA, on a forum for adults, I am stumped. How about

making all the bathrooms unisex? Since you have no trouble with unisex facilities, why not make them all that?

[Honeycombe8]

70. I am speaking in the terms of young children.

That's how young they are. All children have rights, not just the different ones, though they have rights, too.

My point, which you missed, is that it's no big deal for the child to be treated differently, since the parents have decided it's okay for their child to be different in other areas. Surely the whole school knows about this child and her transgender identity. That was the parents' decision. They decided it's okay for their child to be seen as different. And the truth of it is, s/he IS different. It's not right for the child to use the male restroom, which is what her genitals would indicate, because she looks and dresses like a girl. That would subject her to taunting and such from the other boys. But it's not right for the child to use the female restroom.

A uni-sex restroom seems like a satisfactory solution, when there aren't any perfect solutions.

[uppityperson]

72. Are you saying parents decided to "let" their child be transgender? And because they are "different"

it is ok for them to be treated differently in other ways also?

"it's no big deal for the child to be treated differently, since the parents have decided it's okay for their child to be different in other areas."

WHAT?

The parents have decided it's okay for their child to be different, to be treated different since the child is transgender? Did the parents decide to tell "the whole school...bout this child and her transgender identity"?

"They decided it's okay for their child to be seen as different."

They decided to accept their child's orientation.

Since gay children are "different", should they have their own toilets also? Or at least use individual ones? I mean, the parents must've also "decided it's ok for their child to be seen as different".

Can you see how offensive this is?

"it's not right for the child to use the female restroom."
Why? Why is it not right? She goes into the main room, goes into a stall just like all the other girls. WHY is it not right?

Back to terminology.
And what is wrong with using the word "penis" for a gradeschooler rather than "wee-wee"? They know what it is, why not use the proper name? Same with "ya-ya". Young kids have a "right" to not be exposed to the words penis and vagina? Seriously?

[s-cubed]

69. If you are a girl or a woman, you go into a stall and shut the door. No one sees anything. Ant

[Honeycombe8]

71. In a perfect world, yes. I don't know where a perfect world exists.

A problem sooner or later...and most certainly by high school, will come up, with a boy with male gentials who is dressed and identifies as a girl, using the girls' restroom. While it's true that young males are more aggressive and bullying, there are quite a few tough girls these days. There were a few of those even in my day.

This is something the child will have to learn to deal with, since it will be a lifelong issue.

[uppityperson]

73. You want her to be restricted to her own toilet so others won't bully her. Wow.

[Iris]

7. A silouette of a woman in a dress keeps rapists and thieves from entering a space?

Who knew?

Couldn't a rapist or a thief who wanted to attack a woman hang around a relatively isolated public restroom?

I think the answer is to make all bathrooms gender neutral and design them in a way that doesn't make people, no matter what gender they are, vulnerable. I taught in a pubic high school where the bathrooms themselves were essentially small, individual closets and the sinks were in an open area with no doors.

[jberryhill]

8. Correct

Gender neutral bathrooms are common in some places.

This is an architectural issue, more than anything else, which arises from the gender assignment of the rooms themselves.

A proper gender neutral bathroom provides security and privacy.

[pnwmom]

9. No. But when people who look like men are seen entering ladies rooms,

they get reported to security because -- until now -- the law has said they don't belong there.

I'm all for improving bathroom design, but what do we do to keep women (including true transgender women) safe in the meantime?

[Iris]

10. If someone sees them, they get reported to security.

I just think the answer is making sure restrooms are not located in isolated places and if they are, perhaps there should be an attendant on duty. (For example, those mall restrooms where you walk down long corridors located within the bowels of the building)

[pnwmom]

11. Women have been assaulted in bathrooms that aren't in isolated places. And besides,

we're not going to have all-new, safer bathrooms anytime soon.

So how can we maintain safety in the meantime?

[MineralMan]

23. They've been assaulted by transgender women?

Really? Find me an example. The opposite is more likely to have taken place when some woman or women has or have attacked a transgender woman for daring to enter a women's restroom.

This seems very much like a shibboleth, to me. Perhaps a little more thought about it would be of benefit to you.

[pnwmom]

33. You didn't read the OP. That's not what I said or implied.

I did say:


I do NOT think that true transgender girls and women (i.e., sincerely identifying as women) are a risk to other women. The problem is that true transgender women who happen to have the genitals, size, and muscles of men, can’t be reliably distinguished from straight men who COULD be a risk to women in restrooms.

Transgender women say they’re afraid of being attacked if they enter a mens’ room. But ciswomen are also afraid of being attacked by men and they don’t want them in the ladies’ room, where women and girls are particularly vulnerable. How do they know whether the masculine-looking person entering the ladies room is an innocent non-transitioned transgender woman or a violent straight man looking for a woman to corner?

[uppityperson]

24. 2 interesting articles. Woman assaults a woman in br and about transgender in br bigotry

http://rochester.ynn.com/content/all_news/640677/falls-police-officer-accused-of-assaulting-woman-in-darien-lake-bathroom/

A Niagara Falls police officer has been charged with an assault that injured another woman in a Darien Lake bathroom, during a concert last summer.
Kelly Alcorn was indicted by a Genesee County grand jury for assault in the 2nd degree; a class D felony.

The incident happened on August 25th, 2012. Police said she and Elizabeth Dake were in a fight. Dake's head hit a cinderblock wall, causing injuries.

http://dctranscoalition.wordpress.com/campaigns/our-bathroom-safety-campaign/

All over the world, anti-trans bigots try to convince the public that trans people are somehow a “threat” in public bathrooms. We’ve seen it in New Hampshire, in Gainesville, Fl and close to home in Montgomery County, Md: Our opponents stereotype trans people as sexual predators and try to use “bathroom panic” to defeat legislation that would protect our ability to gain employment and live safe lives.

In Massachusetts, conservative opponents of a bill that would add gender identity and expression to the human rights law there began calling the legislation “the bathroom bill.” These anti-trans activists hoped to distract voters from the real issues at hand – fighting transphobic discrimination – by implying that trans women are shady deceivers who will somehow exploit the law in order to enter women’s bathroom and assault other women.

This line of reasoning is completely illogical. We’re already using public bathrooms, and have been since we have existed. There have never been any documented problems caused by us. While there are may be some trans individuals with histories of committing sexual assault, there are far more cisgender (non-trans) people who are sexual predators and this is never used as a reason to argue that cisgender people should be banned from bathrooms of a particular gender.

The idea that trans people are more likely to commit such crimes is only a harmful, bigoted stereotype. Further, even if trans people are allowed to use the bathroom that is consistent with our gender identity, there are already laws against sexual assault. Allowing us to pee in peace won’t change that, or make it easier for anyone to break those existing laws.

[uppityperson]

28. Do you mean how can we tell a transgendered woman from a man looking to hurt us?

Is that what you mean? Trying to figure out what you mean here. If you'd clarify it would be appreciated. Thank you.

[pnwmom]

50. I don't think there is a good way to reliably distinguish

between a transgender woman who has not transitioned -- who still has all the physical characteristics of a man, and who may or may not be wearing "girly" clothes -- and a straight man who doesn't belong in a ladies' room.

If there is such a way, please enlighten me.

[uppityperson]

58. Can you ever answer a question? Will you? Edited to address your "less safe" issue.

I am trying to figure out what you mean vs bashing and you are not helping clarify here. I am trying to understand your point.

Let me try again. I will phrase this in a couple different ways as I am not sure which you will understand.

Do you mean how can we tell a transgendered woman from a man looking to hurt us?

Yes or no?

Is your OP asking how can we tell is it is a transgendered or masculine appearing woman, or a man looking for trouble?

Yes or no?

Can you answer either of these? Will you simply answer?

ETA, rereading what you've written, and the question you asked me rather than saying "yes" or "no", I think this is the problem for you. Since we can not reliably tell whether a masculine looking person is a transgender or simply masculine looking person, or if they are a man coming into the rest room to assault you, all should be banned.

Is it fair or reasonable that in order for a small number of transgender women who are biological men to feel safer, we should change the laws to make rest rooms LESS safe for all other women (that is, ciswomen and transgender women who are fully transitioned)?

Yes, women have gotten assaulted in bathrooms even though men aren’t allowed in ladies’ rooms, but at least with the current laws in place they have a fighting chance. If they see a man in a bathroom, they know they should exit it and call the authorities. If someone outside sees a man enter a ladies’ room, that person knows they should notify store security. If the laws are changed to routinely allow all transgendered females into ladies’ rooms – including women with the bodies of men -- won’t ladies’ rooms be less safe than they are now?

Yes, it is fair and no, they won't be less safe. Any more than unisex multi-stall rest rooms are.

[Starry Messenger]

12. Maybe men shouldn't assault women in the bathroom.

Cis or transgender women.

I'm not seeing anything in these news items that suggest that the men were trying to get into the bathroom under pretense of being a transgender woman.

"How do they know whether the masculine-looking person entering the ladies room is an innocent non-transitioned transgender woman or a violent straight man looking for a woman to corner? "

Because the innocent transgender women is minding her own business and using the facilities? I can't imagine that most transgender women aren't keyed into the possible risks they take from being read wrong in public and take every precaution.

http://www.bilerico.com/2011/04/transwoman_severely_beaten_at_baltimore_mcdonalds.php

Transgender Woman Severely Beaten at Baltimore McDonalds While Employees Watch

"This is absolutely disgusting. After an unidentified transwoman tried to use the bathroom at a Baltimore McDonald's, two patrons started attacking her in full view of other customers and employees. What did the employees do? They filmed it on their phones.

While you can see the manager yelling stop at the two women attacking the customer, none of the other employees even try to intervene or keep the women from dragging the victim across the restaurant floor. Instead, it's the elderly female customer that seems to do the most to help. The manager and employees simply watch as the victim starts to have a seizure and offer no help whatsoever."

[HappyMe]

13. I agree. I don't think it has anything

to do with somebody pretending to be someone they are not. I haven't ever felt unsafe in the ladies' at the local watering hole. There are a couple of people in different stages of transitioning. I just smile and give them a 'hi, how are you today?'.

I think self defense classes should be offered at more locations and be affordable for all.

[Starry Messenger]

15. Same here.

My cousin is transitioning mtf this year, and I worry for her safety.

[HappyMe]

19. These people are mtf also.

I got a 'tsk, you need to wear a different shade of eye shadow' from K. Two of the regulars threw a guy out of the bar for making fun of them. The guy that got thrown out wasn't one of the usual customers, and he hasn't been back since.


edit to add --- SM, you may poke around and see if there are self defense classes near your cousin. You could give her a gift certificate as a kind of 'birthday' present. I wish her well.

[Starry Messenger]

30. Thank you.

That's a good idea. She is part of a supportive community, so hopefully my fears are unfounded. But this OP made me worry again.

[Lex]

14. I'm not worried about transgender folks attacking me anywhere

even in the bathroom. I suppose you could pick 'n choose police stories to worry about whatever it is that you want to worry about.

[MineralMan]

16. None of your examples illustrate a situation where

a man disguised himself to enter the women's bathroom. I can't imagine that is something that happens. Instead, they were men who entered the bathroom with bad intent.

I don't think there's any way to prevent that from happening.

I would not want to see transgender women prohibited from using the bathroom for their gender. It would be unsafe in many places for them to use the men's room.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't see that the solution is to prohibit people from using facilities, based on their genitals. Gender, yes, but not genitals.

[Lex]

17. The OP tying this issue to transgendered people is not cool. nt

[MineralMan]

20. That was my reaction, too.

None of the transgender women I have met would have been a physical threat to anyone but themselves. The bigotry against transgender folks can certainly be a source of depression and fear for them, though. I have nothing but concern for them. I can't imagine any reason to fear them.

[Starry Messenger]

22. +1

[HappyMe]

27. I agree whole heartedly.

Not fucking cool.

[Aerows]

40. I'm really not fond of it either

Some people want to stir up a hornet's nest by pretending to be "concerned" about something that if they just exercised some common sense and judgment wouldn't be an issue at all.

I don't like what is being implied by the OP whatsoever, and this "concern" is ridiculous.

[redqueen]

18. I don't agree that this is any kind of real problem.

Women have been conditioned to be afraid of men as a potential threat and though I understand that fear, it is unfair to men who pose no threat. It is doubly unfair to ftm's, who are also in danger from other men, just as women and girls are.

Reasonable fear can help us avoid dangerous situations. Irrational fear doesn't help anyone.

[uppityperson]

21. Do only men assault women? And wtf does this have to do with transgender?

Quick search, first result:
Man assaults man
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/eye-on-baseball/20151091/alleged-bathroom-assault-during-dodgers-giants-game-leads-to-arrest

Maybe they should work on making rest rooms safe for everyone rather than focusing on the genitals of people in them? And wtf does this have to do with transgender since NONE of the cases you site are about that?

"How do they know whether the masculine-looking person entering the ladies room is an innocent non-transitioned transgender woman or a violent straight man looking for a woman to corner? "

How do they know whether the woman entering is an innocent woman or a violent woman looking for someone to corner. "I do NOT think that true transgender girls and women (i.e., sincerely identifying as women) are a risk to other women." Women do not assault women? What? Seriously? I do not know of cases of transgendered women attacking other women but sure as shit women assault other women.

Many places have non-gender specific toilets and I do not recall stories of them having problems. The problem is making toilets more hospitable for all.

[pnwmom]

35. Can you give me links reporting a woman raping a woman in a public restroom? n/t

[uppityperson]

36. I thought you were talking about assault. Here is one about assault.

http://rochester.ynn.com/content/all_news/640677/falls-police-officer-accused-of-assaulting-woman-in-darien-lake-bathroom/

Is your OP asking how can we tell is it is a transgendered or masculine appearing woman or a man looking for trouble? Is this right?

[gollygee]

25. I've been in the restroom when someone who was transsgendered has come in

and I've never felt any kind of discomfort or fear. I think people who are transgendered are in a big enough state of discomfort over where they're supposed to go to the bathroom and who is going to give them trouble that they don't need to be thrown under the bus here, plus I don't think worrying about transgendered people is going to help make restrooms safer anyway.

I see this as a big red herring. I've never heard of a woman being raped in a restroom by someone who was transgendered. I don't think transgendered people need to worry about even more people reporting them when they walk into a restroom. I don't think the reports would help anyone.

[uppityperson]

26. I think you are saying how can we tell is it is a legitimate transgendered woman or a man looking

for trouble? Is this right?

[Sheldon Cooper]

29. Are you saying that we should be concerned about men, who are not in the

process of transgendering, throwing on a skirt and a wig and going into ladies rooms to assault women? Or are you talking about masculine-looking men, in tank tops and jeans and maybe sporting a beard, going into ladies rooms to assault women? I can't figure out who you're worried about.

[uppityperson]

31. I'd like clarification too. I think she is saying we don't know so should be scared of everyone

since it might be a "legitimate" transgendered or masculine looking woman or it might be a man out to assault us.

Since you can't tell which group they are in, you should be very nervous of masculine or transgendered women because they might in reality be a man masquerading? Or something like that.

It is odd. Maybe "legitimate" transgendered and masculine appearing women should have a big F tattooed on their foreheads so she doesn't have to be scared if they come into a public restroom. That is sarcasm.

This OP is odd, unclear.

[Matariki]

32. ONE - I fucking hate the word 'ciswoman'. It sounds like a disease.

And as a woman I demand to be called what I want to be called, just as I extend that curtesy to everyone else.

And TWO, transgender women in NO WAY pose a danger to other women in a public bathroom, FFS. This is such a non issue.

[pnwmom]

34. I never said transgender women pose a risk to other woman. I explicitly said they did not.

Try reading the whole OP if you actually care what I said.

[Matariki]

41. Perhaps your OP wasn't as clear as you think

as a number of people confused what you wrote. I did in fact read your whole OP, but perhaps not with as much concentration as I would have had I not been put off by that stupid term 'ciswomen'. Why do you use it? I find it offensive.

[pnwmom]

45. I don't know why you find it offensive.It's a term that is used in college classes in gender studies

to mean women who are biological women and identify as women.

[Matariki]

42. And IF what you're saying is that you're afraid a man will dress as a woman to sneak into a restroom

to attack women, what does that even remotely have to do with trans-women?

I don't get the connection. It seems like a far fetched and irrational fear. How many instances do you know of that happening?

[pnwmom]

46. Transgender females don't always wear dresses and skirts anymore than women who are born female do.

So how would you distinguish between a transgender woman who has not physically transitioned and still has male strength, size, and genitals, and a straight man with those same characteristics?

[Lex]

47. Be afraid of everyone--

maybe that will work.

[pnwmom]

48. The threat of rape and assault is all too real for women and girls.

Some men don't understand that.

But transgender females do. That's why they don't want to be in mens' rooms.

[uppityperson]

65. Which is why they should be allowed to be in the women's room. Or why we should make all unisex

restrooms.

[talkingmime]

37. That's a really difficult issue to address. Transgenders of either side should be free...

... to use the restroom of their preference and current persona of the moment. I've known transgenders and some like to go back and forth.

The fundamental problem is that we view restrooms and locker rooms as "male" or "female". That's basically a result of our hangups about sex and sexuality in general. It will take a fundamental change in social norms to overcome this. For a start, I'd like to see three multi-stall public restrooms instead of two - one male, one female, and one unisex. Let each person choose which one to use.

Ultimately it would be good to just drop it to a larger unisex restroom. If you think about it, that would actually be safer. If I heard a woman calling for help in a unisex restroom I'd beat the crap out of the assailant and be proud of it. In general, men are stronger, true, but that's also the main point of my argument. A man preying on women in a ladies room can wait for the opportunity to get a woman alone and she could feel defenseless. If there were other men around that would be far less likely to happen.

Overall I think Americans need a more healthy attitude about sex in general. The "curiosity" and "allure" if you will are the catalysts behind such assaults, but when it comes down to it, rape is an act of violence, not of sex. My daughter has lived in a coed dorm for four years, and shared the bathrooms, and nothing has happened. I know that's anectdotal, but I do think it is typical. My wife spent one year in an all-female dorm and frequently had her fellow dormates' boyfriends invade the shower area (which had no doors or curtains) and make rude comments. My daughter's boyfriend often stays over in her room and I KNOW he would kick the shit out of anyone that messed with her.

It's really about our social hang-up over sex. Sex is natural. It's normal. Some industries depend on said hang-up, like porn and the women's "how to make your guy cum 51 different ways" magazine covers that haven't changed in 50 years other than to get more risque. Okay, okay, they use PhotoShop now instead of manual airbrushing to make unrealistic body shapes, but you know what I mean.

[Aerows]

39. I don't really get this

And I will say this much - if I see a masculine male come into the ladies' room while I'm in there or not - you are damn right I'm going to report him. If I see a woman that I suspect might be transgendered? I'm going to mind my own business, because obviously, that person identifies as a woman.

People need to exercise common sense and judgement. I've known a few transgendered folks, and if they are doing things like using the men's room or the ladies' room, they are passing. If someone is passing, the last thing they want is for someone to out them as being of the other gender. A person with nefarious purposes in mind, like sexual assault and robbery, isn't "passing".

I suppose somewhere, someway, somehow somebody could dress up as a woman to rob women in the bathroom, but that's so far outside of the realm of what transgendered people do it's unreasonable to even worry about it.

This isn't a cool topic, at all. Exercise some common damn sense.

ETA: Frankly, I think this is a "concern" designed to stir up controversy where there really isn't any.

[lumberjack_jeff]

43. Porcelain placement doesn't care about identity, only physiology.

Are bathrooms "safe spaces" or are they for eliminating wastes?

In general, it would seem to me that a person who ordinarily pees while standing would be better served by the configuration of the mens room.

[backscatter712]

51. And watch as trans-women get bullied and attacked...

What's so hard about sitting in the stall with the door closed like every other woman to do her business?

[Bluenorthwest]

44. What do your stories of men lurking in bathrooms dressed as men have to do with trans people?

Isn't this a bit like attacking Iraq for something done by Saudis? I think that it is.

[backscatter712]

49. The bathroom thing is nothing more than right-wing scare-tactics.

It's not like the real rapists can't sneak into the lady's room in defiance of the rules.

And the scare tactics make it so transgender people suffer from harassment and worse no matter what bathroom they go to.

Allowing trans-women to use lady's rooms will have zero-impact on the rate of sexual assaults and related crimes.

[Cleita]

53. When I was a bartender, we had a cross dressing man come in, sometimes as

a guy and sometimes as a lady. It took us a bit of time to figure out who he was in his lady gear, but when we did, we girls had a pow wow about it. We decided it was okay for him to use the ladies room. For one thing, there are stalls there and privacy. We thought if he went into the men's room in drag, he would probably get beaten up. (It was the seventies and there was a lot of homophobia then.) He never bothered any of the girls in either dress. Your post does present problems and I don't have an answer, but this is how one problem got solved. It was really just using common sense regarding an individual and going with it.

[Prism]

55. I think when an epidemic of men start dressing up as women to commit bathroom crimes

Then maybe this topic might be revisited.

I don't see anything in the links where someone passing or being transgendered offered any threat.

I'm a little baffled how these two issues are being joined. It doesn't seem warranted.

[Zorra]

60. Thanks so much for your great concern!

I declare, some random man assaults a woman in the bathroom, and in a burst of inspiration, for some reason you decide it's a great opportunity to not really all that subtly trash LGBT folks.

Again.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002800255

Why, bless your lil ol' heart for your so very deep obvious concern.

I do believe I'm about to cry; such benevolent altruism is taking an enormous troll toll on my poor constitution.

[Starry Messenger]

68. +1

Forgot that link. Repeat offender is obvious.

[uppityperson]

63. This sounds similar to supporting the idea of facilities separated by skin color.

Is it fair or reasonable that in order for a small number of transgender women who are biological men to feel safer, we should change the laws to make rest rooms LESS safe for all other women (that is, ciswomen and transgender women who are fully transitioned)?

Yes, women have gotten assaulted in bathrooms even though men aren’t allowed in ladies’ rooms, but at least with the current laws in place they have a fighting chance. If they see a man in a bathroom, they know they should exit it and call the authorities. If someone outside sees a man enter a ladies’ room, that person knows they should notify store security. If the laws are changed to routinely allow all transgendered females into ladies’ rooms – including women with the bodies of men -- won’t ladies’ rooms be less safe than they are now?

You sound like you believe that by allowing people who appear masculine in a now female appointed rest room, women will be less safe.

I say make them all unisex instead.

This sounds similar to someone saying since more violent crime is committed by people with dark skin, or people with dark skin have assaulted others, they should not be allowed in a rest room for people with lighter skin. Because, after all, how would you know if they were there for a legitimate reason or to assault you.

[snooper2]

66. Don't all the womens bathrooms have a door..

I mean, like every stall?

[uppityperson]

67. Yup. nt