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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOh so some people are tired of hearing about rape and how to try to stop it?
Well, NEWSFLASH, women are beyond tired of being raped.
AND there does need to be a conversation with men and boys about not raping women. I am talking about date rape, rape by those with power over others, and any other form you can think of.
When this is brought up, some automatically think of the the rapists who break in or jump out of bushes. These are generally men who wouldn't listen or are level II or III sex offenders who are sociopaths. Those conversations would be wasted IMHO.
It's bullshit to think that rape is discussed in a lot of families. Hell, people won't even talk about sex much less rape. Add to that the ignorant statements of 'fact' by the Akins of the world and you have teh stupid running all over the place. Don't assume what he says is dismissed by one and all.
If teaching men not to rape was so widespread as to be a boring topic, then why is there an epidemic in our armed forces. The message either wasn't taught, didn't get through, wasn't enforced or all three.
Those who discuss rape with males in the family are taking the right approach. However, to assume your actions are the norm in this nation is arrogant and self-centered.
Women are told ad nauseum how they should avoid being raped. That is only HALF or less of the problem. As I stated, the sociopaths are beyond help in this regard. The rest of the male population isn't or gawd help us all.
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Squinch
(50,949 posts)Many of the responders who were saying, "I'm so tired of hearing about this" and "this needs to be discussed where I can't see it" were actually agreeing with the point of the post which was the same as yours: we need to educate men and boys better, more consistently, and more publicly, just like we do girls.
I don't even think the guys fighting it yesterday understood that they were in agreement with the post.
The knee-jerk is strong.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)Leaving aside the fact that I'm not sure why the rest of us should care if someone's "tired of hearing about it," except insofar as to be irritated by that mindset..
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Towards men might help! To be honest, I got the feeling they didn't give a shit either way if things got better. Because they continued to make it all about themselves. That's kind of telling.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Nothing pisses me off more than that! 
LiberalLoner
(9,761 posts)
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)
cate94
(2,810 posts)Comrade_McKenzie
(2,526 posts)But rape isn't one of them. It is a real problem that should be discussed beyond levels of comfortability.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Which is simply an easy way to deflect from the real focus, which was start telling men.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)But it's a feminist issue, so everyone is suddenly parsing each word as if they're gold.
Words lawyers! Tiresome, and deliberately obtuse.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)subject is uncomfortable, there are those who will avoid it like the plague.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)As has been said, some would admit that they agreed that men needed to be targeted with Men Can Stop Rape type campaigns, but then go back to focusing on the rhetorical device.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)And if and when you break through that shit, you get to the next level: "We'll, of you only explained it all nicely".
Gosh, I love Capt Awkward.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)If I've heard of that I've forgotten it. Sounds familiar. I'll have to look that up.
It sure is annoying.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)her thread about having "a case of the creepy guy" put her on the map. some amazing comments on that thread.
mostly geared towards younger women who need help "finding their words", but very useful and witty.
definitely look up that thread, Red!
tblue37
(65,357 posts)of claiming that opinion pieces against gun proliferation are so wrong that the topic shouldn't even be discussed.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Words have meaning and ways of saying things yield responses based on the way they are phrased.
Shit, knock me over with a feather!
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)They seem to take it so personally, which I suppose is just a method of derailing the conversation by making it all about themselves. I find myself getting upset and defensive, when discussing the crimes of white people, exactly....never.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)but they don't see themselves as rapists
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)You would have thought it was their head she chopped off.
ismnotwasm
(41,980 posts)
CrispyQ
(36,464 posts)This: It's bullshit to think that rape is discussed in a lot of families.
My mother was the pretty open about sex education, but we never talked about rape. We talked about abortion with Roe v Wade, but never rape. Even when I was a young woman living on my own & dating, we never talked about rape. Besides it being an uncomfortable topic, I wonder if there is a kind of superstition about it -- if I talk to my girl/boy, she/he will be raped/become a rapist. ???
We have to get past this & start talking about how girls/women are viewed & treated in our societies. That's where it all starts.
It's time to kill the patriarchy.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Avoiding alleys and parking lots, don't wear short skirts, etc. I really wasn't prepared to think it could be my brothers friend or my boss, you know? Those messages give a totally false picture of the risks.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Zax2me
(2,515 posts)"When's the last time you heard about rape on a college campus?" he asked.
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)If someone wants to blame men collectively for rape, have at it. It doesn't really bother me. I have a pretty strong misandrist streak of my own.
But if you want to place some inane effort at rhetorically modifying the behavior of violent criminals above educating women about safety then you have crossed over into the same headspace as the abstinence only crowd. In no other context would anyone even entertain a similar argument. I have to go to anti-kidnapping seminars every two years as a condition of employment. Would anyone seriously suggest that educating the third world gangs that might kidnap me instead is a possible alternative? Of course not, like rapists, they're violent criminals.
I posted about this months ago but nobody seemed interested: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021907622
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)some of the violent criminals you refer to are coworkers and maybe friends. they just were never prosecuted.
it's not all about being beaten in dark alleys, it's often about young men on college campuses giving each other a pass on this behavior.
like lot of people, you have made this all about your own limited experience, and insist on telling women they are wrong- on a subject you apparently know or understand little about. Gee, thanks.
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)Nobody is telling women their argument is philosophically wrong.
What people are saying is that when the argument morphs into a position where any call to mitigate risk is just too offensive for public display and any message along the lines of "hey, drinking yourself unconscious is a really bad idea" is shouted down that the argument just becomes asinine.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Because, that was the point. Just saying.
No one would be fed up with the rape tips of they were not the ONLY message.
You seriously missed that part? Really?
They don't actually cover much ground, and give you a false sense of security.
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)If you want to go stand outside Kappa Delta Dickhead with a megaphone have at it, nobody is censoring you. But the idea that predatory men can be pacified with a stern talking to has never gained much traction. This line of argument wouldn't be entertained by anybody in discussing any other sort of crime.
I don't disagree with the fundamental point but trying to connect with predatory men rhetorically as an alternative course of action is ridiculous. You're dealing with sociopathy, entitlement and impulse control dulled by alcohol, not a sweeping inability to correctly interpret the word "no" or prevailing norm that sex with an unconscious woman is okay.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)From the fraternities ypu cite to India and back to Stuebenville- and the very real need to change those cultures. As well as - in adiition to having better info out there for woman than to beware of parking lots. Because the parking lot scenario is the much rarer one.
Isn't that a worthy aim? Or you a fatalist who thinks our culture is etched in stone?
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)and pretend no one he knows would do such a thing, when statistics show he, as well as the rest of us, is very likely to know a number of rapists. While society more broadly enables rape in a myriad of ways.
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)Not a prevailing attitude that the conduct is okay.
It might be a worthy aim, but the proposed strategy isn't terribly realistic. This is a criminal issue, not a sociological one.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)That allowed it to continue, that helped cover it up- just a massive cluster of sociopaths? Or was it a bunch of people frightened to stop it or speak up because shit like that goes on for years - and they are all waiting for someone else to say something? Group dynamics play heavily into that situation.
And denying its a cultural problem in India that is based in a deeply sexist culture is nonsense. outrageous violence has become normal in India. It's a society that needs much work- and not the apathy you offer.
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)Consider the entire "stop snitching" phenomenon. That is a group dynamic but nothing about it is unique to rape. Less than 65% of homicides are ever solved. In large cities it can be terrifyingly low.
You can work on society all you like, but the message just isn't going to influence the character of man who does these things. For how many millenia have human societies been trying to get people to stop stealing? It always comes back to the same point. Substitute any other crime and ask yourself does any of this make sense?
Want to open a "dialogue" with rapists? Castrate them. You might not change their attitude, but preserving their cherished masculinity might at least change their behavior.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)But in order to castrate or punish anyone, we have to remove the fog some people have over the issue. Starting with the still widely held belief that anyone owes anyone sex in demand. It used to be law, if you recall. Now it's just assumed on the third date, or after a large gift. Attitudes do change, not overnight - but they certainly do.
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)Where do you get this stuff? You have been repeatedly told women think about safety issues EVERY SINGLE DAY. There is not a woman on this planet that doesn't consider such things. The OP specifically said it's not about blaming all men, but that men must also be educated. What you are saying is that men should have to hear nothing about rape because it is the responsibility is on women to keep themselves from being raped.
For men it's really simple: A woman says no, you don't have sex with her. If she's drunk or under the influence, you don't have sex with her. Americans need to raise their sons to respect women and not dismiss their concerns as you are doing here. Rapists are not a small percentage of the population. In fact research suggests a sizable percentage of men have committed rape.
One in 12 male students surveyed had committed acts that met the legal definition of rape.
16 percent of male students who had committed rape took part in episodes with more than one attacker's gang rape.
75 percent of male students and 55 percent of female students involved in date rape had been drunk or using drugs.*
33 percent of males surveyed said that they would commit rape if they could escape detection.**
25 percent of men surveyed believed that rape was acceptable if the woman asks the man out, the man pays for the date or the woman goes back to the man's room after the date. ***
http://rwu.edu/campus-life/health-counseling/counseling-center/sexual-assault/rape-myths-and-fac
Are_grits_groceries
(17,111 posts)I specifically stated that talking to the violent sociopaths was a waste of time.
How many women on DU do you think have not had to seriously consider what to do because they have found themselves in a potentially unsafe situation? A situation such as walking to their car at night, and I'm not talking about 3am in some godforsaken place. Even that mundane move can make women consider their options no matter when and where.
These are not philosophical considerations. Most women are always considering their safety or being told to and how to do it.
It's time to ADD discussing rape with men and boys. Women are never going to be able to stop considering their safety.
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)The problem is that while perhaps not you specifically, most discussion about safety, particularly where alcohol is concerned is immediately shouted down and that is where the frustration with the whole debate comes from.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Something important only because you want to split hairs. Just get past it and stop using it as an excuse to avoid the discussion.
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)Substitute the word rape for any other felony and see if anyone perceives a serious conversation to be had.
The only people doing the shouting down are the ones who demand the removal of any suggestion that binge drinking might lead to negative outcomes.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Augmented with ones towards the culture at large. Look at the stats on student attitudes posted to you and then tell me things can't get better in Stubenville, in India, and on campuses across the country.
People are lacking info and understanding- they don't feel empowered because that sick behavior has become the norm. It can be reversed.
It's not just random sociopaths by anyone's measure.
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)Most of it has oriented around, or at least started with thrashing at campaigns targeting binge drinking claiming that they were blaming the victim.
And I didn't say it was just random sociopaths, I also said it was entitlement and impulse control, which usually means alcohol.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)And frankly, were sick of seeing them. But we also know they couldn't disappear if you wanted them to- they get emailed and reposted and shared way way too frequently. LOL.
It's time for new messages.Men need to get on board and start dealing with it too.
I'm glad I could clear that up, and reassure you that those old messages aren't going anywhere- so you could stop repeatedly expressing your concern about it.
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)Where the argument is that the inherently unreasonable can be reasoned with and that reasoning with them is a plausible course of action.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I don't know what I can say to change your mind. I think they have learned to live in a very sick way, and I know it can get better.
But if we dismiss the issue, it never will.
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)sociopathic they should all be locked up? Is that really what you think, because the statistics I showed you in another post indicates that's the percentage of college men who ADMIT would rape a woman if they could get away with it. Imagine how many didn't admit their feelings.
You continue to hold on to the fiction that most women and girls are raped by strangers when in fact they are raped by acquaintances, dates, husbands, fathers, uncles and others they know. A woman could keep herself cloistered her entire life, and she wouldn't be safe from the most common perpetrators of rape. That is why education for BOTH men and women, boys and girls, is essential. Is that 33% of men really incapable of human decency? I think not. In fact, we have seen posts on DU from rapists who didn't appear to know what they did was wrong at the time but have since learned, sort of. I seem to have a much more optimistic view of the potential of the male sex than you do. I do not believe they are irredeemably criminal. Actually I don't think most people who break the law are beyond redemption or reeducation. The problem is so many seem to resist the idea that they should be expected to learn anything, and they need not be rapists to take that attitude.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"All I see is exasperation with a philosophical argument..."
I think that's because we often see only that which we wish to see, and often fail to see those items which would invalidate or weaken our own presumptions.
You can of course link us to a post or a thread which want s to blame all men, yes?
Arcanetrance
(2,670 posts)It shouldn't be a comfortable conversation it's not a comfortable topic. We as guys have to come to terms with the fact it's up to us to stop rape. When one guy rapes the rest of us suffer the poisonous fruit of what he's done. So therefore it's up to us to police each other and change the current boys will be boys mentality.
Melon_Lord
(105 posts)Reality is that defensive measures are more likely to work than asking and educating...
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)A woman is much, much more likely to be assaulted in her own home, by someone she knows.
The current defensive measures focus almost exclusively on stranger rape in dark parking lots or unpopulated areas. Places that are, statistically, perfectly safe to walk through or even hang out in.
What this comes down to is the propaganda of fear. We need to stop teaching women to fear certain spaces.