To the DU Catholics

[JanMichael]

At least enjoy the music. I am so sorry.

[Swamp Lover]

1. Do you reperesent all ignorant bigots, or just you?

[Sheldon Cooper]

2. We took a vote, and we named Jan Michael as our spokesman.

[Marrah_G]

23. lol!

[Ian David]

26. That would explain the purple smoke from the DU chimney. n/t

[Dorian Gray]

115. ha

[HuckleB]

14. "Ignorant bigots?"

You mean like the new pope?

[Swamp Lover]

21. The day you feed, clothe, and attend to as many poor...

...as does the Catholic Church, I'll give a shit what you think.

When a young, idealistic, Barack Obama wished to make a difference through service to the poor, he went to work for Catholic Charities as a Community Organizer.

When you want to make a difference, look us up. Until then, maintain your FreeRepublic intolerance and bigotry.

[HuckleB]

33. The Catholic does more damage to the poor than it does good.

Calling out bigotry does not equate to bigotry, so cut the ugly crap.

And this new Pope is a sick joke.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/jan/04/argenitina-videla-bergoglio-repentance

[Posteritatis]

37. We'd see this many tantrums no matter who was elected, anyway

It's as much the denomination as the individual; if the conclave sucked Francis of Assisi himself through a hole in time and gave him the pontificate we'd still see dozens of threads talking about how anyone who's a member of the RCC sucks, that they should be purged from the site, etc. etc. etc.

Hell, there were people genuinely furious and personally offended that the conclave started on a Tuesday instead of a Monday. When people are that reflexive at getting angry at anything that has anything to do with a subject there's really no point in dirtying yourself by engaging with them. It's like reading the comments on news articles, and probably will be until a week or two after Francis' installation next week.

[Cerridwen]

45. Would those be the same poor...

Would those be the same poor the catholic church helped to make?

You know, the catholic church that says have as many children as you can and that poverty is sacred.

The catholic church who denied medical care to those tribes who refused to convert?

The catholic church who makes it "a-okay" to despise homosexuals and who would deny the matrimonial sacrament to those who can't reproduce and therefore become poverty stricken?

The same catholic church who hides the priests who bugger little boys and little girls?

That catholic church?

Read up on the history of the mighty catholic church; burned, hanged, crushed people to death. The pope who boiled his wife in oil; the pope who declared war on anyone not the pope, the borgias, the pedophiles, the rapists, the power mongers.

Then get back to us about our bigotry against their bigotry.

[RKP5637]

76. +++ 1,000 +++ n/t

[HuckleB]

81. Yup.

[Swamp Lover]

86. How did the church prevent YOU from providing

medical care, birth control, guidance, education?

[Fearless]

87. Are you serious?

Intelligent design being taught in classrooms... CREATIONISM being taught in classrooms? Condoms being held behind pharmacy counters for DECADES. Companies whose health plans don't cover family planning. Abstinence only education. And so on.

What's to stop me from correcting these issues? How about the full power and wealth of a multi-national church?

[Swamp Lover]

88. Clearly what is stopping you is a clue.

The Catholic Church does not teach Creationism or Intelligent Design. The church does not own pharmacies or insurance companies.

I attended catholic schools and was taught Evolution, sex ed, all the trappings of a developed, modern world.

The church does not support birth control, but the church members always have.

If you don't agree with the church, don't be Catholic.

If you think you can do a better job, educating, feeding, providing medical care. Have at it. The President I support wished to serve the community after he graduated college so he went to work for Catholic Charities. If you wish to do something else, so be it.

[Fearless]

89. Really?

Aside from having gone to Catholic school myself until high school... The church does not believe in evolution. The church does not believe in sex ed except for abstinence only. The church, as you said, does not support birth control... or abortion services, or adoption services for gay couples.

The Catholic Church has spent millions of dollars lobbying for it's own good. It has millions of people convinced that the world was created in seven days. That evolution does not exist. That condoms CAUSE HIV even. This isn't ancient history, this is all happening TODAY.

The church doesn't need to own pharmacies, if they can convince pharmacists not to sell Plan B or other birth control. They do not need to own insurance companies, when they can use the issue as an excuse not to cover people.

I can do a better job helping people. I do do a better job helping people. I don't judge others. I don't force conformity under the threat of eternal damnation. I love unconditionally. And I do within my means what I can to help others. Unlike the Church, who makes billions of tax free money each year and hoards it instead of helping the poor. Point to one person they "help" conditionally and I'll point back at a golden idol sitting on an altar that could feed and clothe the poor of the world for months if not years. And it is conditionally. Ask the native South Americans that the Portuguese and Spanish "helped" for instance. How are they doing lately? You'd think after 400 years of "help" they'd be doing alright for themselves. Right?

[Swamp Lover]

90. I live in the liberal church that formed the beliefs of our president.

http://illinoisissues.uis.edu/archives/2009/03/kellman.html

Perhaps you will let loose of hatred of others, self-hatred and intolerance to join us some day.

Until then, Farewell.

[Fearless]

91. There is a difference between

"A" Catholic Church and "THE" Catholic Church. A Catholic Church has local power if any at all. THE Catholic Church has widespread power and ability to affect positive and negative dogmatic changes. They have consistently desired to remain in the 19th Century. Good riddance.

[TommyCelt]

106. "Fearless"

"I don't judge others....I love unconditionally."

Except Catholics.

[Fearless]

127. It would take Catholicism to suggest that judging others

Actions or beliefs to be improper. In fact, we judge everyone all the time. We judge Republicans for anti-gay and anti-woman platforms. We judge racists for views against Black people. We judge the Catholic Church for knowingly protecting pedophiles.

We all judge constantly. And there's nothing wrong with that. "Judge not lest ye be judged" is a quaint little way for saying get back in line and don't question us or our suspect beliefs.

[TommyCelt]

150. So make up your mind...

In one post you don't judge other and love unconditionally, in the next you "judge constantly and there's nothing wrong with that".

Pretty harsh conditions for loving unconditionally.

[Fearless]

157. Judging and unconditional love are not mutually exclusive

Although I'm not sure where I've said I constantly or even consistently do either. But such is life.

[TommyCelt]

158. Check post #89 nt

[Dorian Gray]

117. I think you missed some of your science classes

at Catholic school, unless you went in 1400. The church certainly does believe in evolution. That's not in contention.

[Fearless]

126. It does not doctrinially believe in evolution.

Again the only mention of it in a Papal Edict is in 1950 saying that it was possibly but only if god was the cause. It did not affirm evolution. Innumerable times however they have affirmed the Bible as being the word of god. The Bible cites the world being created in six days.

[whathehell]

176. Do you know of any religion which "doctrinally" believes in evolution?

"Innumerable times, however, they have affirmed the Bible as being the word of God".

No kidding -- All Christian religions do that. Unlike the Fundies, however, they don't insist you

believe it to be the LITERAL word of God. Big dif.

[Fearless]

178. Again I'm not talking about other religions

On evolution many are just as bad and worse. I am talking about Catholicism. And because of their power and numbers in the world, it actually is a big difference.

[whathehell]

183. Whatever, Ignore

If it took you this long, I doubt you found one.

[Dorian Gray]

116. The Catholic Church

doesn't teach either creationism or intelligent design.

The church is against condoms, however I personally know nuns who work in the trenches with disadvantaged teens who are pro-condom and provide them for the kids so that they don't get sick or pregnant. Yes, against church teaching, but it's the religious doing what they can in the trenches.

There are problems, of course, but when criticizing an organization, it's best not to lead with two things that aren't at all an issue.

[Fearless]

125. Really the church isn't anti-condom now?

Oh, wait you said they were and then said I was wrong for using that as an argument because it isn't one... Say what?

[Dorian Gray]

143. I didn't say you were wrong

using that as an argument. I said you were correct, even though there are instances of some religious people ignoring the doctrine and being pragmatic. But you were right about that.

I did say you were incorrect about the church's stance on evolution.

[whathehell]

128. Excuse me, but the Catholic Church does NOT deny evolution and doesn't teach "intelligent design"

Those are Christian Evangelicals you're thinking of.

[Fearless]

129. Wrong.

On both counts. I have not said they deny it. I said that they accept it may be possible but only if god created it. See several posts ago.

[whathehell]

139. Right, on both counts.

A. Believing in evolution does not require that one be an atheist.

B. Unlike the Fundies, they do not insist on a literal translation of the bible

and so you are TOTALLY wrong in stating that they teach "creationism" or "intelligent design".

I went to catholic school from 1956 until 1967 and they weren't even doing that then.

[Fearless]

140. Actually doctrinially I am completely right

Again I will state the difference between A Catholic Church and THE Catholic Church. Doctrine is made by THE Catholic Church and THE Catholic Church has made only ONE doctrinal statement on evolution and it is that it is POSSIBLE, though not affirmed, and that it must be god-started.

And believing in evolution does not require one to be an atheist. I have never said it does. However, as the Church's position is that evolution is guided by god, there is no scientific basis for that assumption. You can believe it all you want, but there is no scientific basis for that belief. It is... a belief.

And I went to Catholic schools in the 90's and yes it was taught there or omitted entirely. And yes, to a person, any teacher at those schools would suggest that god created the world in six days and that man didn't "come from monkeys". But, again this is not my point, my point is regarding Papal Edict. And there was only one describing evolution. It was from 1950. And it said exactly what I said above.

[whathehell]

162. Okay, so you're finding fault with the fact that a religion believes there's a "god" in the equation

Gotcha:

Yes, they teach that evolution is "possible", which is a significant improvement over

the teachings of the Fundamentalists, since they claim it to be IMPOSSIBLE.

Bitter as you may be with the church, you'd have to admit that this

is more rational and an undeniable improvement over the science-denying

Fundamentalists. As for the Book of Genesis, yes, of course they

teach from the Book of Genesis -- all Judeo Christian religions do.

The big difference between their teaching and that of the Fundies is that

Catholics allow for a metaphorical interpretation of it rather than a strictly

literal one and so it is not in conflict with science.

[Fearless]

163. I am finding fault with the issues brought up in the OP.

The church wields power to hurt women, gays, condone slavery for generations. This church that doesn't conflict with science is the same one that only pardoned Galileo in 2000 for daring to say that the solar system isn't geocentric. And why is it that it takes them so long to follow on this scientific fact and why does it continue to lag on others like homosexuality being natural, women not being unclean or inferior to men, abstinence only sex-ed, anti-condom policies, and all the rest? Because it's about power. POWER in capitals. They will do and say anything to maintain POWER over people. They will guilt them, threaten them, in the past jail and kill them, and shun them most of all.

I conflict with their ideals. I find fault in their outdated and ridiculous doctrinal policies.

[whathehell]

173. Uh huh

"The church wields power to hurt women, gays condone slavery for generations"....Say what?...I get the first two,

but I fail to recognize the business about "condoning slavery for generations".......Where?..Show me the

where, in Canon law, or in any of their writings, the RC church "condones slavery".

They may have failed to condemn it, and in this they SHARE culpability with Protestantism and Judaism...Hell,

you can't find a condemnation of slavery in the bible OR the Talmud!

As for Galileo, yes, they are often slow to act...They waited five hundred years to canonize Joan of Arc

a saint!

The thing that's clear, though, is that you were, by your own admission, raised Catholic and so

single them out as THE greatest devils in the religious world, while you don't seem to realize that

most, if not all of their iniquities were and ARE shared by others.

[Fearless]

174. The Church condoned slavery for generations

That's fact. Look at colonial South America. Look at the legions of Catholic missionaries from Portugal and Spain in particular. Look at the Bible and every person who accepts and owns slaves. I'm not saying other religions are not involved, I am saying that Catholicism is. I am aware slavery isn't condemned in the Bible. I wasn't discussing other religions. This isn't a "lesser of two evils" or "but everyone else does it" argument. No matter how many groups condoned slaver it is still wrong that the Catholic Church did.

I have not singled the Catholic Church out as the greatest evil in the world. They are however the biggest of those evils in religious circles by power, influence, wealth, and parishioners and have been for over a thousand years. So, yes they take a larger bulk of criticism.

My argument is not that others do not share in inequities caused by the Catholic Church, but that those inequities do exist, many to this day. Just because others do it too, isn't a valid excuse.

[whathehell]

175. Again, can you show me the quote in which the Catholic Church "condones" slavery?

You can't because it's not there -- Simply repeating an assertion doesn't make it true.

Did you know that the Islamic Saudis didn't ban slavery until the 1930's?

Slavery should have been actively condemned by the church, but it is no more guilty

of this than Protestantism, Islam, or Judaism. Slavery existed in ALL of the "desert" religions, including Judaism,

and that's an inequity that could hardly have been "caused" by the Church as you

charge, because Judaism predates Catholicism and all Christianity.

You can continue to hate on Catholicism and continue to consider it the "worst" of all religions,

but I'm simply no longer interested in the subject.

[Fearless]

179. Here are some quotes from the Bible condoning slavery...

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)


If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21 - 2-6 NLT)



The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)



When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21 -11 NLT)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)


------------------------

And as I've said in several other places, I am not talking about other religions. Just because other religions do the same does not mean that they aren't to be held to the same standards of morals as everyone else.

[whathehell]

180. The Bible is embraced by ALL Christians, & parts by Jews, so how can you single out Catholics?

Your antipathy toward the church you were raised in is evident,

but you'll have to develop a better "aim" if you want to make a clear

and cogent anti-Catholic argument.

P.S. The first six parts of the Bible is embraced by Judaism.

As I already told you, ALL of the desert religions tolerated slavery...duh.

Please come back when you're able to construct an intelligent argument.

Until then, I'm not wasting anymore time with you.

Welcome to the big "I".

[Fearless]

181. I can single out Catholics?

I am not singling out anyone. They all do it to one extent or another. The Catholic Church however is the BIGGEST, by far, that does it. So, that is why.

Because other people did it is NOT a justification or resolution to the fact that they did and that their beliefs still do, though thankfully not so much in practice any more.

[lame54]

101. all those are provided with the taxes I pay

[Cerridwen]

124. Do you understand the word "systemic"?

I didn't think so.

Learn that. Then get back to me about individuals versus systemic.

Then; when you've made it that far; learn about the dynamics of power over. The individual versus the system; the generational versus the "in perpetuity".

Until you can define and understand those desperate terms; keep reading and perhaps, remember you have 2 ears and 1 mouth; even if the "mouth" is a post on a message board.

In case I need to spell it out for you; understand twice as much as you speak.

[MrMickeysMom]

85. Catholic Church, no problem... the Papacy and Vatican...

Not so much charity.

I love what the real church does and not the hierarchy of Rome... and I think that's what those comments may be more about (maybe not, but that's what I thought)

[Skittles]

131. do you even realize AT ALL

how much poverty and hunger is CREATED by the Catholic Church's INSANE policy on birth control? DO YOU???

[olddots]

133. the day you get a sense of humor

I'll loose mine

[MoclipsHumptulips]

138. The Catholic 'church'

creates the poor to stay in their glided world.

Ugh.

[Bluenorthwest]

148. The American taxpayer pays for most of the Catholic Charities budget:

Catholic Charities gets 65 percent of its $2.3 billion annual budget now flowing from government sources. That means the poster you are chiding paid for those good deeds as much as anyone, and that collectively we the People paid for those good deeds far more than the 'Catholic Charities' themselves did.
So the day that poster did all of those good deeds was the day the RCC took his money to do those good deeds.
Funny that this fact is always absent from the proclamations of great good works. Who did those works? Mostly the taxpayer, 65% to 45%.
Is it in fact honest at all to claim that 'Catholic Charities' does that which is paid for by taxes? I don't think that it is honest. I think it is mendacious. Veering toward the fraudulent. I keep reading that those 'good works' excuse child abuse and bigotry, but if that is the exchange being made, 65% of the excuses are null and void.

[Phillip McCleod]

177. why on earth should we celebrate coronation of an absolute monarchy?

pope 'francis'? would we be anti-british bigots if (sorry.. when..) we ridicule the coronation of king charles?

the pope is a political leader, as absolute ruler of the micronation he calls home, and as head of the hierarchy that comprises the backbone of the rcc. he's a public figure and he's fair game.

we can not only ridicule him, we can downright disparage him, and we have not betrayed one iota of bigotry. i am a proud democrat and a patriotic american with ancestors who died to establish a democratic republic with expanding constitutional rights.

you CANNOT ask me to celebrate the coronation of any monarch, papal or otherwise. and you MAY NOT call me a bigot when i refuse the invitation.

p.s. it's not fair that catholics get to equally share in all the good works the rcc does in their name, but none of the blame for the coverup of child abuse. can't buy that kinda double standard in D.C.

[backscatter712]

18. What can I say? I'm bigoted against bigots.

My condolences to you for your new Pope.

[pinto]

3. Great song. But why use it to bash fellow DU members?

Cheap shot, imo.

[JanMichael]

4. I wasn't bashing

I am not kidding; I am seriously sorry. This guy is going to be pretty bad imo.

[HuckleB]

15. Meet the new Pope.

Same as the old Pope.

[BainsBane]

5. This is the way to do it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2500426

[JanMichael]

7. No. I am am not going to congratulate

DU Catholics on a homophobe. I think the choice is incredibly disheartening. I think many people here are reading about him and feeling the same way. I wrote, and I meant, "I am sorry."

Go jump on the people calling him names.

[BainsBane]

8. the point is

Skinner was showing respect to fellow DUers.

I'm wondering which choice wouldn't have been disheartening? The College of Cardinals has been filled with conservatives over the last two papacies. This is the first pope from outside of Europe. That means a lot to Catholics in the Global South, particularly from Latin America.

[JanMichael]

9. Skinner posted that before

the Pope was named. I posted afterwards. I realize the "significance" of a Latin American Pope.

[BainsBane]

10. I can't see what difference that makes

You didn't actually think the pope wouldn't be reactionary, did you? They aren't picking from nuns or parish priests. Only cardinals are eligible.

[JanMichael]

11. Do you understand the significance of you wanting

congratulations on a man who supported the right wing factions in Latin American during the fifties? A man who OPPOSED Liberation Theology?

My god, have Dems become that "milk toast."

Yeah, I guess we have.

Whatever....if you hate what I wrote...and I did mean "I am sorry"....NOT in the smarmy, smart aleck way you think it was written...then please quit kicking this thread. Let it go.

[BainsBane]

22. I don't want congratulations

I'm not a practicing Catholic. What I'm suggesting is that you have respect for DU members who are Catholics. Trying to shame fellow DUers based on the little information you have about the Church is unfortunate and disrespectful, but of course that's what the popular crowed is doing today.

The Argentine government you're thinking of was in the 1970s and early 80s, not the 50s. Peron was in power during the 50s. There isn't a Cardinal left who supported Liberation Theology. They were either murdered with our tax dollars, retired, or were replaced with more conservative members.

All the Cardinals are reactionary. There was no option other than a right winger on CULTURAL issues. The last two Popes have been conservative, and they have appointed the regular clergy in bishoprics, archbishoprics, and as cardinals. Not knowing who the choice was is irrelevant. There was never going to be someone in favor of gay marriage or ordination of women because they don't exist in the College of Cardinals.

Now Francis I, in addition to being the first Latin American, is the first Jesuit, practically miraculous for those who know anything about the history of the Church and its long antagonistic relationship with the free-thinking Jesuit order. That there was a Jesuit cardinal was already extraordinary. His choice of Francis as a name indicates his commitment to serving the poor as, reportedly, does his own frugal life style. So the Church hierarchy is reactionary on cultural issues but far to the left of the Democratic party when it comes to social justice. For those who care about poverty and social justice, this is probably the best choice they could have hoped for.

[Summer Hathaway]

27. I'm not a Catholic either

but I have no compulsion to disrespect the religious beliefs of others.

As to what you've posted here, all I can say is:

[Hekate]

79. Thanks for that, BB

I learned a few things I didn't know, and I applaud your request for a bit of respect here as well.

[WilliamPitt]

93. "Let it go."

Follow your own advice and self-delete this shit thread.

[Dorian Gray]

118. I approve this message

[treestar]

62. Nobody who could get the office is going to be in favor of gay rights

Fortunately, the Pope can do little to stop the advance of anyone's rights. And indeed, Argentina adopted gay marriage.

As for other issues, this Pope may be good. His views of poverty are certainly all right. And he did work in an AIDS clinic - one commentator said he was hard on the doctrine but soft on the people.

As Popes go, he may be an advance, which is a good sign all round, as the RC Church is hardly going to be the leader on gay rights or women's rights. But the softer they get on the issues, the more evidence there is that the world is moving forward.

[HuckleB]

16. Sorry, but we should be talking about the ridiculous press coverage of this "event."

And it's time we stop kowtowing to bigotry.

[JanMichael]

17. Thank you

this lends credence to institutionalized bigotry. And we are supposed to write "congratulations?" No. I think it's incredibly sad. The people that will suffer under this man....under this church now...

I know DU Catholics aren't like that. I know liberation theologists don't believe in this.

Christ...I hate the leadership of that church.

[HuckleB]

19. +1

[corneliamcgillicutty]

112. "hate the leadership of that church"--

how sad for you to be so immersed in such acrimony.

[BainsBane]

24. Are you accusing Skinner of kowtowing to bigotry?

I would never suggest you kowtow to bigotry, but it's possible to be respectful of fellow DUers who are Catholics at the same time.

I don't know about the press coverage since I haven't had the TV on. No one forces you to watch it. They'll do anything to avoid actual reporting.

[JanMichael]

32. No one, except you, has made this

about anyone other than the Pope. You keep whining about the Catholic members of the church. Now, you are pissing me off. This is only about me feeling sorry for them having a shit for a leader, much as I would feel sorry for EVERY American with that dipshit Romney in the WH. Please stop your crap. The man...the new Pope...is a RW jackass.......and you pretending like we are talking about the Christ or the Buddha is beyond ridiculous.

[BainsBane]

38. of course

How many times have I said any pope chosen was gong to be reactionary on cultural issues. What I don't understand is how you could possibly find that surprising? Who did you think was going to be Pope?

He's not a dip shit. He''s a Jesuit who speaks four languages and is a trained chemist. I'm sure he also knows the difference between a pro-worker populist government under Juan Peron and a right-wing dictatorship under the military.

[JanMichael]

46. I never said he was stupid. I suspect he knew the difference

and he chose, didn't he. The Right Wing. Aren't you proud.

[HuckleB]

34. "Respect" doesn't mean failing to call an institution that is failing humanity for what it is.

Start your own crap storm.

[BainsBane]

39. I never suggested you shouldn't.

Now that's the second time I've said that. You need only read a few words.

[HuckleB]

41. Hogwash.

You can talk out of both sides of your mouth all you want...

[BainsBane]

43. You can read, or not

your choice.

[HuckleB]

44. I read just fine.

[JanMichael]

47. the poster you

are responding to is just trying to bait you. I am not going to "see" that person again...I strongly suggest you do the same.

Seeing alot of that here on DU recently. Odd...the first two that responded to me...clear as a bell. I can't "see" them anymore either.

Thanks for helping me on this issue

Good to see a real liberal every now and then!

[BainsBane]

51. my

You are delicate.

No, I'm not a true liberal. Classical liberalism rests faith in "free markets" and imagines them to be natural and superior. I do not share that view. I am a leftist.

[HuckleB]

56. Why are you here?

It's a serious question.

[BainsBane]

58. I entered this thread because I don't like bigotry

I despise bigotry as manifested by the pope and Catholic hierarchy and I despise bigotry against Catholics, Jews, Muslims, and everyone else. That is why I responded to this thread.

[HuckleB]

52. It's funny.

That poster just responded to a few MLK quotes I posted, feigning that they were "Luther" quotes, as in the old white guy. What's the point?

[BainsBane]

72. Yes, but I acknowledged my error

while you haven't.

[HuckleB]

80. I haven't made an error.

It took several prompts for you to finally figure out something that should have been very obvious in the first place. When I posted the above response, you had yet to figure it out.

[Brickbat]

6. Ha!

I've had this in my head ever since the announcement!

[Go Vols]

12. 4-2 to leave

[JanMichael]

13. Heh

Thanks.

I figured it was alerted on. I didn't mean this to be ugly, I really sincerely meant "I am sorry."

The man is a homophobe....he is opposed to everything I believe to be good and right. I am horrified, and sorry for the Church...and the members who believe in Liberation Theology.

[HuckleB]

20. Some prescient quotes from MLK.

“The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.”
― Martin Luther King, Jr.

“In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.”
― Martin Luther King, Jr.

“Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.”
― Martin Luther King, Jr.

“There comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular, but he must take it because conscience tells him it is right.”
― Martin Luther King, Jr.

For me, sitting back in a kindly fashion, saying, "Congratulations!" equates to remaining silent in the face of institutionalized bigotry and oppression.

[BainsBane]

49. Edited for misreading

[HuckleB]

50. Someone can't read.

And it's not me.

[BainsBane]

53. You cited Luther

Here is my first post you say never existed:
"I would never suggest you kowtow to bigotry, but it's possible to be respectful of fellow DUers who are Catholics at the same time."

This is obviously going nowhere. I wish you a good night.

[HuckleB]

54. No, I didn't.

Try again.

[BainsBane]

55. You're right

I stand corrected.

[HuckleB]

57. It's about time.

Sheesh.

[BainsBane]

60. but you also misread my post

I repeat it here:
"I would never suggest you kowtow to bigotry, but it's possible to be respectful of fellow DUers who are Catholics at the same time.

That's what you call talking out of both sides of my mouth. You see the world isn't one dimensional. People and institutions are multi-faceted. There are things to loathe in the Catholic Church and things to admire. It is possible to do both.
"

[HuckleB]

82. I did not misread your post.

Offering up a caveat does not change the deception you offer afterwards.

Try again.

[BainsBane]

83. It's not deception

You obviously think about the world in one dimensional terms. That is entirely your problem.

[HuckleB]

92. Nope.

Sorry that your bad propaganda did not get a sale here.

Cut the crap. Honesty is the way to go.

[BainsBane]

94. Something you have steadfastly refused to do

There is nothing noble about hating 1/3 of the world's population, particularly when it' premised on knowing as little as you can about the issue.

Skinner called out this thread in ATA as being particularly offensive.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1259610

[HuckleB]

102. Your response makes no sense.

It does not address my last post about your attempts to push a dishonest viewpoint. In fact, it appears that you're simply up another red herring here.

Please stop.

[BainsBane]

119. There is nothing dishonest about what I have said

Point to one thing I have said that is dishonest. Find proof. That is a serious charge. You better be able to back it up.

What is dishonest? I said it is possible to speak out against the church's position on cultural issues while still showing respect for fellow DUers. I said there was no possibility of a culturally progressive pope because all of the cardinals are conservative on the issues that matter most to you, but not on social justice and poverty. You have repeatedly called me a liar yet provide NO EVIDENCE whatsoever to support your charges. That is because you have none.

[BainsBane]

25. THIS you have to see!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2502935

[rdharma]

28. Meet the new boss......WORSE than the old boss! nt

[HuckleB]

35. +1

[gateley]

29. I'm sure you're very sorry. How mature.

[Egalitarian Thug]

30. Bizarrely inappropriate song. Being fooled is their reason and justification for living.

What good is a flock if you don't shear them?

[Thinkingabout]

31. It sounds like I am reading a repub section, This is not what DU should do. If you do not

Like the selection of Pope Francis hope for him to be more open hearted as I hope for those who does not like this man. He will be the leader of the RCC and we should respect him and his members. As much as I would like to believe Democrats are the greatest they have not always stood where we are now. Let us hope for the best, leave the dirty ugly thoughts to the TP people we are better than they are.

[HuckleB]

36. Please stop the ad hominem nonsense.

Educate yourself: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/jan/04/argenitina-videla-bergoglio-repentance

[struggle4progress]

132. I see O'Shaughnessy has already had to retract a glaringly inaccurate claim in the original version

of his column, as indicated by the correction note at the end. So I might doubt the accuracy of some of the rest of it, as well

[Zax2me]

40. Any anti-Islam videos in your pocket?

[guardian]

42. uh oh I don't think so

that would require courage

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

48. Courage? In the US bashing muslims isn't a profile in courage, it's a fucking past-time.

All world religions are equally fucked up. People at DU bash christianity because that particular religion has a tremendous effect on our culture and political arena.

If you're turned off by people on a liberal message board bashing a hate group you're affiliated with, then leave the church.

[guardian]

59. The lady doth protest too much, methinks

All world religions are equally fucked up.

No. Some are more fucked up than others.

If you're turned off by people on a liberal message board bashing a hate group you're affiliated with, then leave the church.

Such tremendous insight. You're something of a combination between The Mentalist and Sherlock Holmes. Pray tell, what else can you discern about me? So with which church hate group am I affiliated?

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

63. No,

they're all equally fucked up, and I go out of my way to avoid the people who adhere to them.

[guardian]

66. Very inclusive

to actively avoid 84% of the planet's population.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

74. It's for my own good.

They believe in myths, and have proven over time to be capable of some pretty fucked up things.

[BainsBane]

64. So which isn't fucked up?

Let me guess. . . yours?

[guardian]

68. I don't have a dog in this fight

I'm an atheist.

[BainsBane]

69. I think most are fucked up in one way or another

but they also have positive dimensions.

[guardian]

70. I'll agree with that.

I just dispute a previous comment that all are "equally fucked up".

Were I a 15 year girl that had just been gang raped I'd rather live in a town of Zen Buddhists rather than Muslims. I never heard of Zen Buddhists stoning or whipping a minor female rape victim to death.

[BainsBane]

71. that may be an exception

but there are probably some SOB Buddhists in the world too.
There are also fine Muslims and Catholics who commit their lives to doing good in the world. I believe in assessing a person for who he or she is, not based on an idea I may have about what I think their religion or culture is like.

[guardian]

73. I agree with that too.

However, when I see posters that make blanket statements that impune entire groups I can't help myself from jabbing and prodding to get a reaction. It's fun to twist their own words, do the same thing in a different direction, and throw it back at them. A character flaw on my part I guess.

[BainsBane]

75. Perhaps I misunderstood you

but I thought you were suggesting that Catholicism (or Islam?) was more fucked up than the rest.

[BainsBane]

65. I wish I could disagree

[blue neen]

67. I have no dog in this fight,

but this OP should have been hidden.

[Trajan]

77. Im with ya on that ...

I'm a rather intense atheist, but this kind of statement is completely over the top ....

I'm surprised it is still standing ....

[BeyondGeography]

78. Yet another entry in today's Ledger of Lame

Walk with pride, lad.

[WilliamPitt]

84. Singling out a group of board members for ridicule makes DU suck.

I hope you accomplished more than this today. Otherwise you just wasted everyone else's oxygen.

[muriel_volestrangler]

95. To you, and others who think this is too disrepectful:

"Meet the new boss (same as the old boss) has been used about the following people on DU:

the Iraq government, 2004:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=901139&mesg_id=901194
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=631136&mesg_id=631172

Nancy Pelosi, 2006:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2331128&mesg_id=2331218

The White House, 2010:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4566059&mesg_id=4566208

The State Dept, 2011:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=5020383&mesg_id=5020434

Do you really think that a new homophobic pope, who any realist expected would be just as reactionary as the last one (see eg reply #10), deserves respect that DU didn't pay to Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton? Or that his nominal supporters on DU should be somehow protected in GD when the supporters of those Democrats aren't?

[WilliamPitt]

96. You're comparing insults leveled at elected officials and governmental departments

to insults leveled at a worldwide religion.

I love your posts, and double-mega-epic love the way you write...surely you can understand the incredibly heightened sensitivity attached to insulting someone's faith vs. insulting someone's elected official.

[muriel_volestrangler]

97. It's no more 'insulting the faith' than those others were 'insulting the USA'

It's criticism aimed at the 'boss' - the leaders that don't change their ways.

[WilliamPitt]

98. On this, we disagree. n/t

[Humanist_Activist]

100. Any added sensitivity is the problem of the adherent, not the critic...

and the critic shouldn't have to use that as a consideration in their criticism. Religion has, for far too long, been considered above reproach, when it should be considered just as critically as every other belief system on the planet.

[WilliamPitt]

103. Critically does not have to be cruel.

If people are just looking to cause hurt, that's one thing and there's nothing for it. If people think they're right and want to change minds, however, drawing blood - especially on the sensitive subject of religion - is not the best tactic. More flies with honey, etc., is all I'm saying.

[Humanist_Activist]

110. Generally I find tone to not matter, any criticism of religion, to the religious...

is generally met with over the top responses. Its more than just sensitivity, its over-sensitivity to the point of ridiculousness.

[WilliamPitt]

111. No disagreement.

When one is around deeply-buried land mines, one treads softly. Not how I think it should be. Just how it is. The hard work is digging up the mines and defusing them.

[Humanist_Activist]

164. Frankly, I find tact and politeness to be lost on the religious when...

talking about their religion, generally they redefine words on a whim, for example, calling anyone who doesn't show their religion deference or reverence bigots. Which is just stupid, not to mention insulting and inaccurate.

[HuckleB]

105. This post is aimed at the hierarchy of that religion.

If others want to be offended by it, that's a little odd.

[Ichingcarpenter]

137. Catholicism is not a democracy

Catholicism is not a democracy

The 'flock' have little or no voice in the matters of the church, the flock is meant as a flock of sheep not birds. Unless the OP is a bishop, cardinal, priest or pope the church knows what's best for their 'flock'. Any pretension that their institution is democratic is an absurdity.


The church’s absolute prohibition on birth control is almost unanimously ignored by lay Catholics. The prohibition of divorce is also widely disregarded. Marriage equality for same-sex couples now enjoys majority support in the U.S. and elsewhere, and is becoming the norm even in historical strongholds of Catholicism like Spain and Portugal, in defiance of the Vatican’s wishes.

If the church cared what its members thought, it would long since have abolished the teachings that a vast majority of them refuse to accept. Instead, if anything, the Vatican has redoubled its insistence that agreeing with everything it teaches is essential to Catholic faith.

Although liberal and progressive Catholics may be well-intentioned, they’re acting as if they don’t understand what it is they’ve signed up for. The Roman Catholic church is not a democracy. The church hierarchy isn’t elected, doesn’t have any checks or balances, and it doesn’t solicit or care about the opinions of ordinary churchgoers as to how things should be run. On the contrary, the Catholic church is an absolute monarchy! It’s run by a dictator-for-life who’s not accountable to anyone, who can’t be overruled, and who effectively chooses his own successor.


Because the hierarchy is self-perpetuating, it has no accountability and no need to pay attention to outside criticism. The only influence that ordinary Catholics can exert, the only way they can signal their disapproval, is through the indirect route of no longer attending services or giving money. Anything else, the church can and will take as support for their current political program.

The church was born in an era of empires and monarchies, and it modeled its leadership on the societies of the time. But while all those empires have fallen and those monarchies have become democracies, the church has stayed mired in the past, clinging to the medieval model of one absolute ruler who makes the decisions for everyone. If ordinary Catholics are surprised or dismayed to realize this, it’s only because they made the mistaken assumption that moral progress within the church has kept pace with moral progress in the wider world.

[JanMichael]

121. I wasn't ridiculing anyone. I was/am

genuinely sorry.

I think this man is going to push the church in the wrong direction again. I find that incredibly sad; particularly for the Sisters in the US.

[cordelia]

141. Yes you were. It was the intent of your OP.

[muriel_volestrangler]

142. Who knew DU had mind readers?

Can you read anyone's mind, or is it just people you disagree with?

[JanMichael]

144. Thank you

I didn't know how to respond to this without sounding snarky. I have really tried to avoid that on this thread. I wrote what I meant....I felt bad for the liberal Catholics when the new Pope was announced; and for people who live in areas/ countries that will be affected by this decision. I guess it's just business as usual in the Church.

[cordelia]

146. Didn't take mind reading abilities to see exactly what

was intended in the OP. None at all.

[JanMichael]

147. Wrong

I really resent what you are saying. I meant precisely what I wrote; as a history major who had an interest in Latin American history, I was genuinely sorry to see this selection. It is surprising to me the number of people who keep trying to read a "deeper meaning" into the three words "I am sorry."

This entire thread is about the hierarchy of an international religious organization that many members here are members of.

Quit trying to turn it into something it's not.

[cordelia]

169. Right

I frankly don't care whether you resent what I said or not.

I didn't turn this into anything; you did that yourself with your transparent insult in the OP.

[hlthe2b]

99. One doesn't fight bigotry with more bigotry....

I, for one, am sorry to see DUers attack other DUers in such a manner. I am not Catholic, but the broad-brush attacks and smearing is offensive to me as well. As Skinner has clearly pointed out:

"Everybody here knows that the Catholic Church is completely wrong on many issues.
Most of all our fellow DUers who are Catholic. Nobody here is cheerleading the institution, and nobody here supports the Catholic Church's backward teachings on homosexuality, women's rights, or other issues. Trying to tar liberal DU Catholics with the bigoted teachings of the church hierarchy is just wrong. All it does is make Catholic DUers feel unwelcome here".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1259&pid=637

and further,

"Liberal believers are going to be the people who ultimately bring change to their own religions."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1259572

I could not agree more.

[HuckleB]

104. How does this Who song count as bigotry?

What does Skiner's comments have to do with the song?

Seriously. They don't even connect, even if Skinner is trying to connect them, it makes no sense.

[hlthe2b]

107. It applies to the ugly comments, such as many of your own the thread has elicited.

[JanMichael]

122. Did you read what I wrote?

I NEVER put the Church down, nor the members. I said, and I meant, then and now "I am sorry."

Incredibly sad choice.

[hlthe2b]

136. Yes and I concur with Skinner..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1259610
Skinner (56,858 posts)
1. I agree it's bull.
I noticed that later in the thread the OP claimed that he was merely expressing his sympathy for Catholics. I tend to think if he was serious about supporting DU Catholics, he would self-delete that OP.

[TommyCelt]

108. Great song.

Don't you wish you weren't the 740,762,369th genius to light-bulb the "new boss, same as the old boss" schtick since the conclave ended?

Meet the new DU/HuffPo poster....same as the old DU/HuffPo poster.

[JanMichael]

149. never posted on HuffPo

?

[TommyCelt]

153. The Who lyrics

have been all over HuffPo as well.

[JanMichael]

154. OK...I don't read that site unless

someone links to it. Too many ads/ popups.

Thanks for the explanation

[HockeyMom]

109. As a former Catholic with 12 years of Catholic school

They can go their way, and let me go my way. Never the twain shall meet. Unfortunately, the Pope, US Cardinals Bishops, and Repuke Catholic Congresspeople don't want that to happen. THAT will get a fight from me. Keep your Catholic religion PRIVATE, and don't attempt to legislate any of it.

[JanMichael]

123. Exactly

There are so many people that will suffer because of this new Pope. I feel bad for all my Catholic friends.

[MellowDem]

114. K&R

Seriously, I am sorry you have another homophobic, misogynist Pope. We'll all suffer as a result, Catholic and non-Cathlic alike.

[BainsBane]

120. see this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1259610

How on earth are you going to suffer? You might not like something you hear on television? How strange that you feel your life to be governed by the Pope when Catholics don't take that position.

[BellaLuna]

130. Obviously the fragile don't get your post

Or they're still in brainwashed 'victim' mode like they were taught as kids.

ANYONE who does not get the criticism of the Catholic hierarchy is part of the problem. Until the followers rise up and demand change they will continue to be more corrupt than holy. Not acknowledging the 'change' the Church made does not include better treatment of women an homosexuals etc.. blows your hurt feelings out the window. You can't have it both ways.

Even my elderly mother gets this and she is a saint. It's not the faith - it's the leadership. Defending your 'faith' is admirable - defending the institution should be against your views as a Liberal.

Buck up offended ones - the drama is so old and unjustified.

[hlthe2b]

135. So, you apparently are including our Admins--specifically Skinner in your "fragile" assessment...

Star Member Skinner (56,858 posts)
1. I agree it's bull.
I noticed that later in the thread the OP claimed that he was merely expressing his sympathy for Catholics. I tend to think if he was serious about supporting DU Catholics, he would self-delete that OP.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1259610


Ummm, ok... Keep up the ugly bigotry. It says more about you than any of the DU Catholics (or the non-Catholics as myself that find this behavior extremely offensive)

[JanMichael]

145. I read what Skinner wrote

This is the first time I can remember that I respectfully disagree with him. That said, it appears as if he is respectfully disagreeing with me also. If he needs to write something specifically to me, then he has both DU PM message system, and my wife and my joint personal email. (we both check it; unlikely we would miss one)

[BellaLuna]

155. I can't disagree with Skinner?

I never saw he setup a site that every post had to agree with him. Perhaps I give him more credit than you do?

I stand by what I said. YOU obviously do not believe the OP's explanation as to what they meant that all of you so eagerly misinterpreted.

Tolerating the sins of the Catholic hierarchy is NOT a value to defend. But go ahead - have at it.

[hlthe2b]

159. It is ugly denunciation of DU Catholics, rather than criticism of the hiearchy that is going on here

and that is very very ugly and unwarranted. Skinner likewise has interpreted the comments in this and other threads similarly--which lead to his own comments as posted in this and ATA threads.

[BellaLuna]

165. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

AGAIN.. you want to be outraged. The OP clarified the intent but it's not good enough.

btw: i am Catholic. I also have the ability to separate the faith from the bad of the Church. No apoligist BS from me with the hierarchy. I doubt I live long enough to see the leadership not be corrupt.


bye

[backscatter712]

134. Since we're talking music, here's a tune the new Pope should listen to...

[gateley]

151. I'm not religious and don't view organized religions favorably, but I would never

insult those who are adherents to ANY religion as you have done here. It's really uncaring and cold.

Insulting those who CLAIM to be true followers of a religion yet live their lives not walking the talk, is a different matter.

But that's not what you did here. Some DUers are Catholics. You just dismissed them and their beliefs.

[JanMichael]

152. wrong. I did NOT dismiss anyone's belief system.

I do not care for the new Pope; many people here do not, including, I suspect some of the Catholics.

I saw posts making fun of people for all belief systems (comments about "flying spaghetti monsters," etc. type posts)....posts from lapsed Catholics (there are one or two on this thread alone)--

I wrote nothing other than I am sorry. I am sorry for many of the world's leaders right now, religious or not.

Quit trying to make this into something it's not.

[BellaLuna]

156. but but but... it's so much more fun to be outraged!

It doesn't matter you clarified your intent - Some people seem to be outraged all the time. They are walking a very fine line in defending their 'faith' and not the corrupt hierarchy. IF they cannot see criticism is warranted against the misogynist, homophobic and corrupt leadership - THEY are missing the point of the faith itself.

It would be funny if it wasn't so disgusting to see their 'hurt'.

[JanMichael]

160. It's OK, Bella....let it go. If you want some "fun"

go look at the other thread I started....Re: the thread about the new Pope in 2005. Very different tone, even from one of our most "esteemed DUers." No one was scared to criticize him...

This one is different for some reason; and there are about 3 posters taking it as a condemnation of "their faith." It doesn't matter that I have not written one word about their "faith," or their "belief."

[JanMichael]

161. I requested this be locked. To some of the responders

sometimes a cigar really is just a cigar. I have never seen three words cause so much trauma in a few posters.

[aikoaiko]

168. You are the OP. Why not just hit the self-delete button at the bottom left corner of your OP.

You are the change that you seek.

[pintobean]

171. I wish I could rec Skinner's reply to that request

Skinner 7:44 AM #1

Response to JanMichael (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 07:44 AM

Star Member Skinner (56,875 posts)
1. We don't lock threads at the request of the author

If you want it to go away, you can self-delete. If not, you enjoy the blowback.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1259686#post1

[unapatriciated]

170. Wanted to let you know .....

being raised Catholic, taught by Jesuits and a practicing Catholic until my 40's. I understand the difference in the church and THE CHURCH and also offer my condolences to those who are still within the faith. This man is a Jesuit in name only, he is not a free thinker like those who taught much of the Catholic youth in the 60's. "The CHURCH" took a hard right turn in the 80's and has failed to correct that error. One of many reasons I left the Church. Those who believe that the right wing views of THE CHURCH do not influence Good American Catholics, did not go to mass in a variety of parishes during the election of 2003. I did and it put the final nail into the coffin for me. Because of Kerry's stance on birth control, THE CHURCH went after him. My sister's parrish, at the urging of their priest re-registered as Republican in protest of Kerry's views on birth control (and many voted for bush as well)l. My parents parrish priest had no problem supporting bush from the pulpit during that election. Because of that my parents walked out during mass and never returned. It was the same for my Mother-in-law's parrish. The Catholic Church played an important role in helping bush. Some Catholic democrats were repulsed by it but too many were not. THE CHURCH is not going to change anytime soon, there are only a few Cardinals that are eligible for the status of Pope and they are all pretty RW. This is something all Catholics should be concerned with because a big portion of their weekly donation to their local parrish goes to the Vatican.

edited to add: the parishes I refereed to were all in blue states.

[JanMichael]

172. Interesting

My wife is an Episcopalian; we have watched the church split over the past decade (or more...really for the past 30 years)...we were wondering when that was going to happen to the Catholic Church, but, frankly...from some of the responses on this thread, it appears that the one of the few options is to leave if you really dislike the Pope.

Thanks for the non-knee jerk feedback.