Is there still room for Catholics among rank-and-file Dems?

[reformist2]

I'm seriously beginning to wonder.

[GodlessBiker]

1. Oh, stop. This is about the constant assault by the Catholic hierarchy on children, women, and ...

gay people. This has nothing to do with the Catholic laity.

[BeyondGeography]

11. There are many here who see the laity as enablers

And they post with knives clenched between their teeth.

[redqueen]

12. I can personally attest to seeing posts that disagree with you.

I'm with the OP.

[pnwmom]

86. There have been several OP's today that specifically called out members, not just the hierarchy.

But go ahead and keep your blinders on.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

157. No that's simply factually incorrect - DU is brimming with attacks on the catholic laity.

You, personally, may be being scrupulously careful about limiting your attacks to the Catholic hierarchy, but that's not relevant when so many others are not.

[Zorra]

166. Ya know, it's strange, but I've yet to see any of the laity here express any overt dismay over the

fact that their new leader is a flaming bigot who would be banned from DU in a shrews' heartbeat for blatant unabashed homophobia.

Is it because Catholics are forbidden to, or are afraid to, criticize their leaders, or something like that?

Geez, if I were a Catholic, my humble little flaming liberal yellowdog Democrat self would first be apologizing to those who will most certainly be harmed by the new Pope. Then I'd be kicking ass, taking names, and attempting major house cleaning over this horrendous choice for God's highest representative on earth.

You can bet your life that if some LGBT leader came out and said that Catholics were evil and not deserving of basic human rights and should not be able to get married that most LGBT folks would be screaming bloody murder right along side the victimized Catholics.

Honestly, the roar of the crickets here on DU is very unnerving for me as an openly LGBT person. I know for an absolute fact that there are many awesome good hearted Catholic folks here who dearly want to see LGBT persons achieve the equal status with straight people that we fully deserve as equal human beings.

If any Catholics truly feel victimized by criticism of other DUers over their church hierarchies' heinous choice for leader, please keep in mind that it is only a very minute fraction of how LGBT people work so hard to resist feeling every day of our lives.

We have done absolutely nothing to deserve the hate and persecution that many cultures and societies have laid on century after century.

It would be constructive for everyone if lay Catholics and some of the awesome parish priests out there took it upon themselves help lead their leaders into the light, cuz they are very obviously in serious desperate need of enlightenment.

[liberal_at_heart]

2. this website is very anti-religion but

there are in fact a lot of religious democrats.

[patrice]

10. a.k.a. "spiritual" Democrats, Free Democrats, Progressive in the artistic-sense Democrats, like what

used to be called Progressive Jazz, . . . immediate, emergent Democrats.

[arely staircase]

94. and there are christians, like me

who are also, hopefully, all the cool things you mention. we worship a christ who is anti-war and anti-bigotry.

[patrice]

99. I came of age during Vatican II: Christian FIRST, Catholic second, although that's really more like

Family FIRST and then other things . . . .

and I don't think that's the slightest bit disrespectful to Catholicism; like my family, no matter how much I "change," that can't be taken away from me and establishing an appropriate order of priorities actually makes it possible to be more authentic/honest, more in touch with the truth, and hence more respectful to one's church and others, as far as that is honestly possible. That's part of what freedom is about.

It's like loving any person; it's not possible if you don't recognize the ways that s/he is a problem of some sort.


Reality, or at least as close to it as possible, is so much more interesting than our fairy tales about it are.

[snooper2]

128. Is that the same christ who wiped out almost all of mankind?

[arely staircase]

142. no

eom

[snooper2]

143. Huh? you got me confused...

there are two christs?

You were referring the one who makes big ass floods right?

[arely staircase]

144. jesus and the flood, huh?

lol

first of all i don't take the flood story literally - you may if you wish.

the flood story predates jesus by hundreds of years.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

158. Anti-christianity more than anti-religion, I think.

There seems to be far less hostility to other religions.

[JI7]

3. isn't the Vice President a Catholic ?

[Go Vols]

7. Yep

plus six of the nine current Supreme Court justices are Catholics too.

[JI7]

14. Catholics also make up the largest number of Dem Senators

not the majority but more catholics than other groups.

[sabrina 1]

137. Yes, Biden and Kerry and Ted Kennedy among other Democrats, are/were Catholics.

I guess they do not belong in the Democratic Party.

[patrice]

4. You favor a purge? or oppose alienation? either way it's a fascistic impulse in service to

divide and conquer.

[Paul E Ester]

26. It's confusing too

Our brothers and sisters from central and south america often identify with the catholic church on a religious and cultural basis. These are not just insults upon their faith but an assault on their culture, that has parallels to other religious bigotry. I'm happy to see skinners post on the pope, to me it sets a nice example/tone.

[HuckleB]

88. +1

[freshwest]

168. Thanks, you always give me a lot to think about.

[Matariki]

5. I'm not a Catholic but I seriously get pissed off at the inconsiderate bigotry I sometimes see here.

Don't let it get you down, I think it's mostly a small group of loud mouths who think it's perfectly fine to mock other people's spiritual beliefs.

[MindPilot]

29. I think you forgot your sarcasm thingy

Around here it is perfectly acceptable to mock and deride atheists with comments that if they were applied to any other minority would get you banned in a heartbeat. But the belief that spirits are real is somehow absolutely sacrosanct.

[kwassa]

54. Where?

Got links?

[cordelia]

127. Of course there are no links.

[Matariki]

65. I think it's equally inconsiderate to mock atheists beliefs.

I think I see more derisive comments toward religious people here than toward atheists. But either way, it's just rude.

[bowens43]

126. why? So now we shouldnt be rude? Religion is the worst thing man ever invented.

it is directly responsible for the vast majority of ignorance, hatred and bigotry in the world today.

why should it be tolerated? It should be discouraged.

[Puzzledtraveller]

132. Why be rude at all?

[Matariki]

147. Religion is not the worst thing man ever invented.

It's just sometimes used by some people as a justification for the worst in human nature. But that doesn't invalidate all religious belief. I think the people who use it that way would just find something else to justify their 'inhumanity to man' if not some religion.

[CAG]

103. Oh for Gosh sake. Believers sit here DAILY and hear the snark from atheists, and you for

one second think there is anywhere NEAR the same crap delt to atheists???? As another poster replied, got links?? I've got one of several from today alone for my team:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2500458

[alp227]

75. Mocking beliefs is really that harmful?

I have yet to see a regional reason why other than "IT HURTS MY FEELINGS" & other I/me/my/self centered attitudes.

[HuckleB]

89. Criticism of bigotry is not bigotry.

[Zorra]

145. Thank you. + 100,000,000. nt

[Matariki]

146. I don't disagree with youi.

That wasn't what I was referring to.

[Marrah_G]

6. I don't think people are angry at catholics

HOWEVER, the hierarchy of your church is corrupt and criminal. If you think people are NOT going to bring that up just to spare you feelings, you are are mistaken.

It's your church, own it and fix it. If you can't or won't, then quite frankly, learn to deal with the fact that others will criticize it.

Personally, the Vatican could burn to the ground and in my opinion it would only make the world a better place. Local churches and the priests and people who do wonderful things are FAR removed from the politics and money in Rome.

[Control-Z]

9. +1000 (nt)

[forestpath]

58. +1001

[reformist2]

13. I'm suggesting that it might be prudent to tone it down a few notches, that's all.

The level of animosity here towards the church is pretty severe.

[Arugula Latte]

21. The level of anomosity towards women and gays by the Church is pretty severe.

So, yeah, that church has earned a lot of well-deserved contempt and ire.

[Puzzledtraveller]

133. So you are not a Catholic am I correct?

May I guess that you are also not a white supremacist and member of the KKK. I am not a Catholic, or a member of the KKK either.

[Marrah_G]

23. For me, that is not going to happen

People I love were molested/raped by a member of the clergy. The diocese of Boston covered that up and moved priests around to allow them to have MORE victims. The reaction in Rome by the last two Popes was to bring Cardinal Law back to Rome and to give him the prestigious honor of becoming one of four Archbishops of Rome. A real slap in the face and a very telling move.

This type of corrupt and criminal behavior has been going on since the very start.

Yes, my level of animosity for the hierarchy of the Catholic church is very high. In fact, I despise them. I think they are poison for society.

Anytime someone start about what victims Catholics are because people have had enough with the disgusting actions portrayed by their churches leader, quite frankly it makes me want to puke.

The Catholic church is NOT the victim.

[Dorian Gray]

120. The Church

is often great at "demoting UP." It's horrific. The Church should have handed violators to prosecutors. They failed many people, including your family/friends who were abused.

It's something that I think this Pope intends to address.

And the Church talks about humility quite often while the leaders rarely show it. A show of humility is necessary in healing the crimes that they've perpetuated. My local parish is an amazing place. Our pastor is critical of the hierarchy. (He's a friend and we've had many conversations about the leadership in our diocese and the vatican.)

I get the criticism. It's deserved.

[Warpy]

41. The animosity toward church hierarchy is well deserved

and, since it's such a closed off old boys' club, that hierarchy is unlikely to take any of it to heart.

You need to realize that's what is happening here, animosity toward a corrupt institution that has been corrupt for many centuries.

Rank and file Catholics are a more liberal bunch than their Protestant brethren. As such, they're completely welcome here.

Bishops, Cardinals, and the rest of the hierarchy, not so much.

[2ndAmForComputers]

70. No.

[redqueen]

19. "Local churches and the priests and people who do wonderful things are FAR removed..."

That's how I see it too.

But that's being challenged here I just realized. I'm glad I haven't looked in any pope threads until today.

Wtf...

[southernyankeebelle]

56. I hate to say it but you see a lot of catholic hate. People just can't help themselves.

You see they blame ALL priest for abusing children. It's just as bad as when some say all gays abuse children when we all know damn well that isn't true. Just like not all priests abuse children either. Or when your hear minorities are lazy when we know that isn't true either.

[Arugula Latte]

136. What we hate is a Church that insists on crushing the lives of women and gays and poor people

and the support they garner from otherwise well-meaning, "liberal" people who are enabling a very rightwing, repressive institution to continue to do its work, such as suppressing birth control in places where it is most needed.

[southernyankeebelle]

139. It doesn't matter what you think. We who still like what our church stands for don't like

hearing all the time about your hating on the church. We know the problems in the church and many go to mass because of their faith not for the priest and surely not for the pope. I hope this Pope gets back to the basics worrying about the poor people and helping them find jobs, affordable housing. If it does those two things I will be happy. You have a right to join the church or not. The church will have to change but they are like turtles that move extremely slow. Now don't get me wrong I don't go a lot any more and I certainly don't give the money to the church any more. I support gay rights and choice for women and especially birth control. I know one thing for sure you can find wrong in many different religions. I just don't want to hear constant hate on the church. They do do some good. I just don't think people give them the credit for that. Until the church really starts getting rid of the abusers things won't change. But the hate on DU is just to much at times and as a catholic even a cafeteria catholic I feel it to much at times. I think when people try to defend their point people seem to go after them. That isn't right

[Arugula Latte]

140. Well, this is a liberal discussion board.

So, yeah, people express animosity towards harmful rightwing institutions. That's the way it goes.

[southernyankeebelle]

141. True but I always thought liberals were more tolerant then the right wing. The

unbashed hate shown to catholics isn't right. We don't expect hate talk about minorities or gays to be allowed without people saying that isn't right. It isn't and it shouldn't be tolerated by anyone. Well neither should this unbashed hate for the church. You can disagree but we can do it respectfully not out of hate. You aren't going to change 2,000 yrs of history in 20 or 30 yrs. It isn't going to happen. The church moves very slowly. It will change or it will die.

[Arugula Latte]

152. This is what I don't get:

"We don't expect hate talk about minorities or gays to be allowed without people saying that isn't right."

Why do you tolerate hate talk about gays and women from the leadership of your own Church? The Church does not operate in a vacuum -- it has a direct influence on the lives of millions. Gays and women are regarded by Church hierarchy as second-class citizens whose rights should be curbed because they are not heterosexual men. That's a fact. I saw those bastards testifying in front of the U.S. Congress recently in an attempt to curb our access to contraception! In 2012! I've sat through Catholic wedding ceremonies where I was basically called a vessel and a helpmate to a man. I saw how the Church in cahoots with the Mormons threw its financial heft behind Prop 8 -- to keep gays down. Is that not intolerant? This "hate" for the Church does not come out of thin air. It is based on centuries of people feeling oppressed by the Church, and the attempted oppression continues to this day, in this country, and therefore animosity toward the Church continues, and grows.

I don't get why you think people pointing out intolerance and bigotry by the Catholic church leadership is itself intolerance. Why would you support intolerance by your Church by continuing to patronize it, but be offended by what you see as intolerance here when people criticize that very intolerance?

[southernyankeebelle]

153. Well I don't like the level of hate, period. There are many many good local priests that

I know and one that I work with. He didn't judge anyone. The only thing he wanted if you wanted to get married then he asked have you attend church and do you plan on raising your children in the faith. I never heard him say anything negative about gays or even the birth control. Some priest know their people are taking birth control but don't say anything. If I heard a priest say something I don't agree with you can bet I will let him know. I have worked in a chapel at the miltiary base. My husband was a chaplain assistant. So I have had the opportunity to see many chaplains of different faiths. Many of them share the same ideas as catholic priests do. I am not going to give up my faith because of some bastard I don't agree with. You feel the way you feel and that is fine. I can't help the way I feel. I know the church has warts.

[sabrina 1]

156. So do you think we should express this animosity towards prominent Catholic

Democrats, like Biden and Kerry? Did you vote for Obama/Biden? If I felt the way you do and blamed rank and file members of any organization for what the CEOs do, I would boycott the entire membership. After all, the Catholic Church could not exist without its membership, which includes some people you most likely voted for.

Do you think we should purge the Dem Party of Catholics then?

[Arugula Latte]

161. I'm expressing animosity towards the church leadership and its policies.

And I don't think liberals should support an institution that has misogyny and homophobia as some of its core tenets. That goes for Joe Biden, yes. I don't hate Joe Biden and I don't hate liberal Catholics. I hate the Vatican, its leadership, its completely brutal and repressive history, and the way it tries to influence U.S. public policy and the policies in many other countries (no contraception, women and gays as second-class citizens, etc.)

I did vote for Obama/Biden. My choice was to 1. vote for Obama/Biden or 2. vote for Romney/Ryan (the Mormon Church leadership is obviously completely fucked up/bigoted/misogynistic and racist to boot) or 3. vote for a minor candidate with no chance of winning or 4. not vote. Obviously #1 was the best choice. But, people do have a choice whether or not to support an institution. Why liberals continue to patronize this church is beyond me.

[earthside]

34. Respect people--not hurtful or silly beliefs.

In this country, or course, individuals are free to believe whatever they want. And I think most folks at DU respect people's right to do that ... and respect them as individuals with character, freedom, personal prerogatives, etc.

However, in this instance, in my opinion, one does not and probably should not have any respect for bigoted dogma and actions, and/or just plain silly behavior and 'religious' ideas.

Since today is 'Pope' day, we are discussing the Roman church ... and let's face it, for the good it has done and the well intentioned actions of individual Catholics, this organization has an overwhelmingly odious history of oppression and atrocity.

[pnwmom]

91. There were hate posts today specifically directed at members, not just the hierarchy,

and others referring to the whole Church as nothing more than a pedophile sex ring.

That is hate talk.

(I'm not putting your post in that category, by the way. But they are out there.)

[Dorian Gray]

121. That's very sad

I've been staying out of these posts til this morning. Perhaps I should just continue to do that so I don't get riled up.

[Dorian Gray]

119. As a practicing Catholic

I hear you and am not offended by this. (Except for the Vatican burning to the ground. But only because it's a cultural and artistic masterpiece. When China burned temples to the ground in the cultural revolution, it was one of the greatest losses of architectural grandeur in the last century. I would hate to lose something like that for historical/architectural/artistic integrity.)

[Donald Ian Rankin]

159. What so say is factually incorrect - a brief scan of DU will find many posts that are clearly angry

at catholics.

There are some posts which are limited to attacking the hierarchy of the catholic church; there are some which are not.

[reformist2]

8. So basically it's OK to bash every institution in the world except overtly liberal ones?

Keep up that attitude, and you will end up seizing defeat from the jaws of victory. Or however that saying goes.

[JI7]

15. if they are anti gay, anti women etc yes they should be criticized

they don't have to be very liberal. but these days you are considered a liberal if you are against hating gays and taking away women's rights.

[Puzzledtraveller]

134. then make a list, better start now

because it's will be VERY long.

So, why bother right?

[patrice]

16. NO shortage of Catholic bashing here & just to be sure, I should put you in the purge the party

column, correct?

[Apophis]

38. Do you support the church's stance on gays and women?

[marmar]

63. When an institution enshrines discrimination as official doctrine, yes it is.

This is not about the rank-and-file. It's an intellectually dishonest argument.

[aquart]

114. We don't bash "liberal institutions"?

Darling, where have you been?

[KittyWampus]

17. There is no room for spirituality of any kind here on DU, whether as part of a religion or not.

The overwhelming majority of posters are Scientific Materialists without even knowing what that means.

As for the implications of espousing Scientific Materialism as your world view (knowingly or unknowingly)… well, it's counter to all that is considered progressive or liberal.

[Humanist_Activist]

22. Explain what you mean by Scientific Materialism being country to all that is considered progressive.

n/t

[MattBaggins]

35. Don't hold your tongue

It's the newest fad word like synergy and quantum.

[jsr]

50. I bet 99% of the hipsters who jabber about quantum theory

don't know what an eigenvalue is.

[corneliamcgillicutty]

42. Well stated!

[alp227]

78. O M F G WHAT DID I JUST READ?

As for the implications of espousing Scientific Materialism as your world view (knowingly or unknowingly)… well, it's counter to all that is considered progressive or liberal.

"scientific materialism" you mean reality? What EVIDENCE do you have for spiritual higher power?

Did you seriously just use intelligent design argument as a trap to "open mind"?

Sometimes I wish the left were a strictly secular movement.

[RainDog]

90. it's like the fountain of bullshit

what's so funny is the unearned air of superiority.

[KittyWampus]

97. Philosophical dwarves… it's hilarious. My post points out really super basic philosophical camps.

That is what is so pathetic.

Simple distinctions are totally beyond the grasp of DU'ers who think their well informed.

But then, Philosophy isn't taught any more. It's a shame.

[RainDog]

98. It's "they're" not "their"

you of mighty mind.

[KittyWampus]

96. Reality has been proven by science to be non-local. And many scientists of note are Idealists

& not Materialists.

[Humanist_Activist]

109. Anyone who uses the phrase "proven by science" doesn't know how science works.

The rest of your post is nonsense.

[RainDog]

118. What's also obnoxious

is the statement that she was using basic philosophical terms and thinks no one knows what those are, and thinks people here don't know the term scientific materialism. Or that they are unfamiliar with Plato.



this isn't the only subject where this unearned superiority is claimed, btw. mostly I just try to ignore this shit, but sometimes it's just too much.

[KittyWampus]

149. LOL! Spare me your adolescent rhetorical attempts at making your own ignorance.

[RainDog]

151. LOL. You're a trip.

a bad one.

[SidDithers]

84. ...

Sid

[Puzzledtraveller]

135. That deserves a standing ovation

[eShirl]

150. lol!

I'm really hoping this is just satire

[Zorra]

163. Generally, no one here is worried about spiritual folks who don't belong to organizations

that espouse harming others and causing harm to others.

Personally, I don't much care what anyone believes as long as this belief does not lead to the deliberate harm of innocent people. Unfortunately, some people believe that they have the divinely sanctioned right to deliberately harm others.

Most of us here sincerely wish to prevent innocent others from being harmed by the people who support the malevolent policies and practices of religions that encourage their adherents to deliberately cause harm to innocent others, and who cause direct harm to innocent people.

I consider myself a spiritual person, and I sweat sometimes, and I used to sit up; but a primary understanding in my being is to do my best to not harm others, and I do not allow any woman or man to guide or control what I believe, or what I do.

I particularly avoid, to the greatest extent possible, any person who claims religious or spiritual authority over another person, most especially if this false authority claimer is openly malevolent.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

18. no...there simply isn't

it is a simple fact... evidence is everywhere.

sP

[upaloopa]

20. Put it another way. Does the Catholic Church

support Democratic positions?
Equality. No
Choice. No
On the other hand the Church was not pro war.
Not pro the Ryan budget.
Yet yet the Church in many communities tells people not to vote for Dems.
Your call.
If you are a Catholic do you belong in the Democratic Party?

[BeyondGeography]

28. Winning Hispanics 2-1 put Obama in the White House

They may have been voting primarily on non-faith-related issues, but being Catholic didn't get in their way, did it? Of course, if they were constantly told by our Party that they are child abuse enablers just for being churchgoing Catholics...

[upaloopa]

36. No one said the "faithful" are child abuse enablers.

My brother is a priest. I have mentioned this some time back and someone here called him a child molester and they never met him. You got to chalk it up to their ignorance. In other words consider the source.
To me those people have something to hide, the old reaction formation thing because they are so out there.

[liberal_at_heart]

44. yes the democratic party cannot become too arrogant

A large portion of the Hispanic demographic is Catholic.

[RainDog]

116. 63% of Democrats in a Pew Poll identified as "no religion"

So, you're trying to make the claim that THE MAJORITY - 63% of the Democratic voters- hate Obama and don't view it as a positive thing that he won the White House?

You're lying.

[Paul E Ester]

51. I passed your message onto the Kennedy family.

They send their regards.

[Comrade Grumpy]

95. Is that really a question you want Catholics to be asking themselves?

Are you inviting them to leave?

[pnwmom]

101. The Dem party would not have carried the election without a majority of Catholic voters.

So it's stupid to alienate individual Catholics with broad-brushed slurs, as many on DU like to do.

[muriel_volestrangler]

122. Only if you mean "if all Catholics had voted against Obama, he'd have lost"

The Catholic vote in the exit poll was 50-48 for Obama, just the same as the overall result.

http://www.pewforum.org/Politics-and-Elections/How-the-Faithful-Voted-2012-Preliminary-Exit-Poll-Analysis.aspx

If Catholics had voted equally for Obama and Romney, or had voted for neither, then Obama would still have won the popular vote - they were only 25% of voters, so the Obama-Romney difference would have had to be 4 times the overall difference to be able to say "it was the Catholic vote that made the difference".

[hughee99]

167. Okay, let's look at states with the highest percentages of catholics.

Last edited Fri Mar 15, 2013, 01:47 AM - Edit history (1)

A vast majority of the 25 states with the HIGHEST percentage of catholics voted for Obama in 2012. Only 7 of the top 25 went for Rmoney. Only 1 of the top 10 did and that was #10.

Catholics don't seem to listen very much to their church's leadership when it comes to voting.

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/peo_rom_cat_per_of_cat-people-roman-catholicism-percentage-catholics

Rank States Amount
# 1 Rhode Island: 63
# 2 Massachusetts: 47
# 3 New Mexico: 41
= 4 New Jersey: 39
= 4 Vermont: 39
# 6 New York: 38
# 7 New Hampshire: 35
= 8 California: 34
= 8 Connecticut: 34
# 10 Arizona: 31
= 11 Illinois: 30
= 11 North Dakota: 30
= 11 Louisiana: 30
= 14 Texas: 29
= 14 Wisconsin: 29
# 16 Nebraska: 28
# 17 Pennsylvania: 27
# 18 Florida: 26
= 19 South Dakota: 25
= 19 Minnesota: 25
= 19 Maine: 25
= 22 Colorado: 24
= 22 Hawaii: 24
= 22 Nevada: 24
= 22 Montana: 24

[Tommy_Carcetti]

24. I sure hope so. Else what am I doing here?

I'm a Catholic.

Not a lapsed Catholic or a former Catholic or a self-hating Catholic or a Christmas-and-Easter Catholic or non-practicing Catholic. But a regular once-a-week mass-attending, Eucharist recieving CCD-reared practicing Catholic.

But I'm not a blind sheep either.

I've long been frustrated at the church's leadership. They suffer from chronic group think and they've become their own worst enemy in damaging the church's image. Which is a damn shame because even they will often speak out for the right things--about addressing poverty, decrying the death penalty, decrying unjustified warfare. And yet it all gets obscured by their dysfunction that they brought upon themselves.

I'd like for them to allow married people into the priesthood. And women too. Getting rid of celibacy requirements would go miles to help address the recent sex abuse scandals. And I think dropping their ridicioulous position on contraception would make infinite sense if they want to maintain an opposition to abortion.

I'm a Catholic of the Cardinal Bernadin cloth--the seamless garment, the consistent life ethic. Otherwise I'm nothing but a big ol hypocrite.

But it's my church, just like the Democratic Party is my political party. And I don't intend on disavowing either of them, no matter how ridiculously dysfunctional they get.

[Hekate]

33. Thank you for putting this so well, Tommy

[CurtEastPoint]

39. amen, Tommy

And thanks for this.

[liberal_at_heart]

40. well said!

[davidthegnome]

110. Great post.

Well said.

[klook]

25. Of course there is.

There are many socially progressive Catholics and Catholic institutions.

There are also right-wing Catholics. There is no room for them among rank-and-file Dems.

I, an atheist and rank-and-file Democrat, welcome conscientious and progressive Catholics and look forward to working side-by-side with them for a better world.

[redqueen]

27. +1

Well said.

[liberal_at_heart]

31. voice of reason. Thank you.

[TacoD]

138. Agreed 100%, from another atheist and rank-and-file Democrat. (nt)

[Hekate]

30. One really has to wonder about the shrill voices on DU...

And I do mean the DUers who condemn all Catholic believers without exception, and not just the actions of those in the hierarchy who committed crimes.

DU does not equal the Democratic Party, and sometimes I am grateful for that.

[liberal_at_heart]

37. DU does not equal the Democratic Party

Exactly and thank goodness it does not.

[chieftain]

45. Thanks for pointing that out.

Does the OP actually think that DU is an official organ of the Democratic Party? If not how about some detail about what the party, not independent posters on DU, is doing to drive Catholics away. The OP is either pretty disingenuous or pretty short on detail.

[liberal_at_heart]

47. don't get me wrong I think there is a very loud wing of DU that is very anti-religion

Many of us get very tired of the vitriol. It's just reassuring to know that DU does not represent all of the democratic party. As a liberal I have to remind myself of that a lot.

[chieftain]

59. I take your point.

I get tired of the bashing my church takes here. Some of it is anti-Catholic bigotry, some of it is ignorance and a whole heck of a lot of it, the church got the old fashioned way. It earned it. I just wonder why the OP would conflate DU with the Democratic Party.

[Bobbie Jo]

62. and it most certainly does not represent

rank and file Dems. Not by a long shot.

[Posteritatis]

32. ITT: People scrambling to paint one sixth of the planet with a single brush. (nt)

[Zax2me]

43. Well, not if you look around at the threads posted today.

In fact, if you use postings here as a template, Islam is the only 'accepted' organized religion.
The question is can this site be used as a gauge?

[jsr]

53. Correct observation.

[etherealtruth]

46. Though I no longer consider my self Catholic

I come from a very devout Catholic family. I also come from a family that votes strongly (exclusively) Democratic. I also credit the Catholic Church (and my family) with instilling a deep sense of social justice.


DU may not always be the most welcoming place for Catholics (or the religious) ... however, the Democratic Party, is extremely welcoming.

by the way, many here are very welcoming to the religious devout, as well!

[11 Bravo]

48. Among rank-and-file Dems, certainly. At DU, not so much.

[MH1]

49. IMO, "rank and file" Catholics have as much room with rank and file Dems

as do members of any other flawed organization.

Hopefully you recognize the aspects of official Catholic doctrine that are at odds with core Democratic ideals, but on balance find your membership in the church to be a positive.

Since that describes most Democrats who are involved in some other organization, if you substitute the other organization name for Catholic, it really shouldn't be an issue.

As to the new Pope, I think people should relax and see if this guy moves the Church even a little bit in a more progressive direction. Despite some of the things being posted here at DU, he does sound like he will be an improvement in some areas (while being perhaps a disappointment but not a surprise or a step backward in others).

[H2O Man]

52. Pennsylvania?

It's bigger than DU, and has more influence in presidential elections.

[southernyankeebelle]

55. Excuse me but who are you to make that judgement? I am a catholic and a liberal

democrat since I have been able to vote. Catholics are a lot more excepting of gays, birth control and equal rights for minorities and women. Why would you say something like that. That is kind of offensive.

[etherealtruth]

57. Obviously, I can't speak for the OP ...

... but your response seems to be what the poster meant. S/he appears to be implying that they are accepting of the things you list but are feeling unwelcome (here?) despite that .... simply because they are also Catholic.

I didn't read it as a "slam" against Catholics ... maybe a lament about some of the hostility (real and perceived) directed toward Catholics (here)

[southernyankeebelle]

61. Yes your right. There is a lot of mean things said about catholics when really the

majority of catholics are alot more liberal then people give a credit for. I don't think no church is perfect. But it is the church I was raised in. I have to admit I don't give them my money any more because I don't like what they do towards women issues and against gay issues. I don't blame god I blame the pope who doesn't get rid of the bad apples.

[etherealtruth]

64. Though I don't consider myself Catholic (or any religion) now ... (ofor a very long time)

I come from a very devout Catholic family ... my family is also choc'ful'o VERY liberal Democrats. Oddly, I credit the Catholic Church (and my family) for my very liberal beliefs. Yes, I am aware of how badly the Catholic hierarchy "sucks," but, I think the liberalism of MANY Catholics is (purposely?) overlooked!

[liberal_at_heart]

66. people on this website were quick to use Catholics in their argument for birth control

siting the fact that something like 98% of Catholic women have used birth control in their lifetime. They will conveniently use them in an argument but won't give them credit for holding those beliefs. Once they're done using them in their argument those Catholics just go back to being enablers of molesters.

[southernyankeebelle]

67. Yes I know your right on. It's the same way in my family.

[Fresh_Start]

60. Of course there is....

luckily most Catholics have a lot more humanity and common sense then the church leadership.

[etherealtruth]

72. I want to make sure I get this straight

The group you are slamming is not the entity known as the Catholic Church ... not the hierarchy of the Catholic Church ... the group you have decided to take issue with is (specifically) Catholic DUers ... "The whiny catholics on this site sound like the fucking Paterno defenders" ... "I don't care how many catholics voted for Obama"

[distantearlywarning]

69. I alerted on a rude, bigoted post today

It was not hidden. One of the jurors said something to the effect of, "you people need to get over yourselves".

I'm not a Catholic (or even a member of any other organized religion), so I'm not actually a "you people". I just thought it was an ugly, unfair sentiment on a progressive site, and one that would probably make me feel unwelcome if I were a Catholic, so I alerted on it.

But apparently certain types of "you people" are in fact unwelcome here these days. Sorry. I tried.

[liberal_at_heart]

71. I was on a jury today that voted 6-0 to hide a nasty, bigoted, personal post!

but too many have been allowed to stay that's for sure.

[Posteritatis]

73. I saw a 5-1 to keep one throwing ethnic slurs around because the target's acceptable.

The place is pretty sad today.

[patrice]

100. DU stands strong for the 1st Amendment. I like cultivating the possibility that such posts

can be handled out in the open, by means of a sharp, respectful without being soft, hard-edged rational critique.

Take them apart, in public, without providing faults in one's own style which faults allow others to discount what one is saying on grounds that are irrelevant to an issue at hand.

[bobduca]

74. Yes, especially the liberation theology Catholics!

The Opus Dei cultists and those who want to revert to the Latin Mass and practice self-flagellation, not so much. American catholics are known for our independence from the pope. at least I used to think that when I was a practicing catholic.

[graham4anything]

76. What about Vice President Joe Biden and the Kennedy's?

[Purveyor]

77. I'm starting to wonder that myself, indeed. Will be a hell of a loss to the party should they

decide not to turn out next election over this bullshit.

Just saying.

[alp227]

79. This party should be a secular one.

I await the day when god is dropped from the platform. Too bad Antonio Villaraigosa vetoed.

[LeftyMom]

80. Bigotry is really shitty.

Rank and file Dems should stop financing it.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

105. A+

Its amazing that not supporting a bigoted corrupt institution is considered bigotry in itself. Just because you were born into something doesn't make it right. There are other options outside of Catholicism, if you choose to belong to an organization that's bigoted and sexist, that's on you!

[LeftyMom]

108. Usually the excuse is some nonsense about changing from within.

As if a two thousand year old institution that's gone to literal wars over angels dancing on the head of a pin hair-splitting nonsense is going to change because some Americans say so.

We're talking about a church that kept using a language nobody else spoke for a thousand fucking years, that still hasn't got over the fall of the Roman empire. The church does not do change.

[davidthegnome]

111. Not supporting it is not the same

as painting all Catholics with the same broad brush. The suggestions from some here that all Catholics are bigoted and sexist is as ridiculous as the idea that you could be a bigot for simply not supporting the Catholic church.

As a former Catholic, I don't support the hierarchy, the patriarchy of the Church. I do not support the Vatican or the Pope. However, I am well aware of the fact that there's a large number of Catholics that are not sexist, or bigoted, that are disgusted by the scandal and the attempted cover ups. Lumping all Catholics in together with people like Ratzinger is a mistake.

That said, I wish more Catholic Priests, bishops, and Cardinals were more like Andrew Greeley.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

160. Uh huh.

Thats like saying "i belong to the Klan but I really don't believe all that racist stuff". The organization is homophobic and sexist if you choose to stay a member of that organization you are part of the problem.

[davidthegnome]

162. How about this?

I'm an American, but I didn't believe in the Iraq war. The fact that I'm still an American then (by your logic) makes me part of the problem because I've paid taxes that have gone to support the war... this would also mean that anyone who remains an American tax payer is somehow guilty by association of the drone strikes, torture, and so on.

Americans are frequently painted with the same broad brush, but I would not say that we are all part of the problem. Many of us took part in protests, many of us argued long and loudly against the war. There are many Catholics (especially the reformers) that do not approve of the Church's misogyny or homophobia and have made that known.

The Catholic laity, more than the church, is an ever-evolving group. I have known many Catholics and Priests who are and were truly fantastic people.

There's also the fact that the klan is generally defined as racist, because, that's basically the main purpose of it. The Catholic church is quite a bit more broad than that. Look into almost any religious group and you will likely find instances of oppression, misogyny, sexism, racism, greed, cruelty - and so on, both now and throughout history. This does not mean that the entire group was guilty of all of these things. You will also find instances of charity, kindness, forgiveness, understanding...

Your world might be black and white, but mine is not.

[still_one]

81. So are you painting individual's posts with all of DU? I have seen post not favorable to Jews,

Baptists, other nonCatholic Christians, and religion in general

Everyone's post is only representative of that poster, and cannot be inferred otherwise

I have seen a lot of anger on these forums expressed against specific religions

My suggestion is if you do not wish to be part of such dialog because you believe it is offensive, or prejudicial, then those posts should be alerted, or a thread locked

[MFrohike]

82. Only if you want to win elections

If your goal is permanent minority party status, purge at will.

[HuckleB]

83. I know plenty of rank-and-file Dems who are Catholics.

None of them are happy with any Pope in our lifetimes, and this one is no different.

Please cut the crap.

[arely staircase]

85. most top ranking dems ARE catholics eom

[lonestarnot]

87. I am not a Catholic. As a rule, Catholics

do not try to push anything on me, I love President Kennedy and I love Mr. Vice President, so in answer to your question, it doesn't apply to me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. Yes. I have a problem with the intolerant ricks,

But yes.

[Politicub]

93. Yes

That was easy.

If the Catholic Church is ever going to change it will be because progressive Catholics demand it.

But don't get too upset that some people are a little annoyed at the outpouring of ecstasy about a guy who said some rotten things about GLBT marriage and families. Surely you can understand some of the pent up anger.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

102. No one is forcing you to be Catholic.

The Catholic church is inherently sexist, homophobic and has been complacent in the systematic abuse of children.

If I started a club for people based on homophobia, sexism and child abuse I would be ridiculed and rightly so.

If you choose to donate money or belong to such a corrupt perverted institution I'm never going to fully trust you.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

104. My wife's a Catholic, a Democrat, and a Marxist. But, she doesn't owe fealty to any of them.

I assume that other Catholics are capable of making a choice about which party they want to belong to.

[Buzz Clik]

106. Not sure. How's your personal hygiene?

[Rowdyboy]

107. DU is not "rank and file" Dems....DU is an amazing conglomeration of leftists, Wiccans, trolls.....

Progressives, union workers, teachers and everyone else the cat drug in all mixed into one often toxic brew. It is not, in any way representative of the Democratic party other than in its name.

Of course theres room for Catholics, and Methodists and Lutherans and Episcopalians and Jews and Muslims and Atheists in our party. Always has been and always will be. DU is DU-take it for what its worth. I remember one poll here where over 60% declared themselves as Atheists or Wiccans. That really doesn't compare very closely to the actual electorate but for DU its about average.

[aquart]

112. Goodness, what a perfectly silly thing to say.

If I can put up with the raging anti-Semitism, you can handle mass disappointment in your Pope pick.

The fact that people are disappointed is actually a sign that they hoped for great things from a new Pope no matter how little the previous evidence. Now that's true faith.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

115. Assuming you're a Democrat, you seem to still be here.

[Summer Hathaway]

117. There is always room

for Catholics in the Democratic Party.

There seems to be little room for Catholics on DU.



Thankfully, the two are not one and the same.

[LWolf]

123. There's room for neoliberals.

Why wouldn't there be room for Catholics, or any other faith?

[el_bryanto]

124. This subject just depresses me- because, let's be honest, it's more do Catholics belong at DU

You can't ask that question, though. But that's the point - if Catholics don't belong among rank-and-file Dems they don't belong at DU, do they?

As the member of another religious group (Mormon) that might be seen as not belonging among the rank and file Dems or at DU it depresses me.

Bryant

[MNBrewer]

125. Kinda depends on the Catholic, doesn't it?

[dmallind]

129. For them? Sure. For their corrupt church to be held free from criticism? Fuck no.

Plenty of fat, white, suburban, heterosexual male gunowning well to do types manage to be Democrats despite broad criticism of all those characteristics, and none of them involve paying to protect pederasts.

[cherokeeprogressive]

130. Not unless you believe an institution can be hated without hating

Those that empower it.

DU can at times be one of the most hateful and intolerant places I've encountered on the nets.

Other times it's unequalled for it's compassion and empathy.

I just wish those times weren't so utterly predictable.

[murielm99]

131. Of course there is room.

DU has certain things they get rabid about. Christianity and Catholicism are just a couple of them.

If you were to say anything remotely anti-Islam, there would be a great outcry about your prejudice.

This place is not an indication of the rest of the Democratic party, or the rest of society.

Trying to defend Christianity or Catholicism on DU is a lost cause. You will be attacked by a bunch of people who pile on like fourth graders.

Are you an atheist? Okay. Live and let live.

I you are disturbed by the nasty children, make liberal use of the features that help you hide threads and ignore annoying DU members.

[redqueen]

148. You should have included a couple of quotes to illustrate what you're referring to.

Obviously a lot of people are confused and thinking that you're upset about criticism of the pope or the church itself.

Sigh.

[WilliamPitt]

154. There better be

if Dems want the EC votes from New England, Michigan, Pennsylvania, etc.

[mvd]

155. Yes, there should be

However, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be challenged when they have the same discriminatory ideas the church has - or if they defend those ideas. I assume a lot of Democratic Catholics have more progressive ideas of things than the church hierarchy. When they don't, then they don't fit the Democratic party principles well.

I grew up a Catholic but now consider myself a liberal Christian because I felt I was too far apart from the Catholic Church.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

164. LOL

[MNBrewer]

165. Is there still room in the Catholic church for rank-and-file Democrats?