The bad news: the 76 year old Catholic pope, like the rest of the Vatican, opposes gay marriage.

[pnwmom]

Surprise, surprise.

The good news: rank and file Catholics don't much care. Here in WA, Catholic voters were more likely to vote for gay marriage than voters overall, so Catholics were instrumental in passing the measure.

[Tx4obama]

1. Oh he opposed other things too. See link below

Here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022502407

[kelliekat44]

21. So he is opposed to it. Can he stop it? People have a right to their own beliefs...at least no one

can stop you from having "beliefs." Can he really stop a gay marriage? Hell, the catholic church is opposed to divorce but can't stop it from happening.

[Skittles]

2. so you're saying

they go against the teachings of their own church; got it

[pnwmom]

3. Yes, they do. And so do right-wing Catholics who oppose the Church's

economic social teachings.

[Skittles]

6. then WHY

be a part of an institution that openly practices and teaches sexism, homophobia, over-population, etc.? WHY?

[pnwmom]

7. Because we don't expect the Church to be perfect any more than we expect that from anyone else.

But, for those who stay, the good outweighs the bad.

And especially, the many good people like Joe Biden, Justice Sotomayor, the "nuns of the bus," etc.

[Gravitycollapse]

9. If you conflate perfection with not despising gay people...Well, that's a problem.

[pnwmom]

10. Catholics are MUCH more likely to support gay marriage than the public overall.

If that's the issue you most care about, then you should be singling out non-Catholics for your criticism.

[Gravitycollapse]

11. Yeah I get that. It's unfortunate that the leader of their faith is such an asshole.

[pnwmom]

12. Then why did you make that comment about Catholics and despising gay people?

If you "get that."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/08/catholics-gay-marriage-support_n_2835847.html

The Quinnipiac University poll found 54 percent of Catholics support same-sex marriage while just 38 percent are opposed, compared to a 47-43 percent margin among all American voters.

Pope Francis is 76 years old. How many 76 year olds, inside and outside the Catholic Church, do you think support gay marriage?

[Gravitycollapse]

13. I was commenting on the Church and Church doctrine.

Which makes explicit it's vehement hatred of homosexuality.

But let's be real here. When you take on the label "Catholic," you are accepting the identity associated with Catholicism. And you damn well better get use to the fact that people anticipate your support of the institution from which you derive such an identity.

If I say I'm a member of the Latter Day Saints, I am identifying with the LDS as an institution. And with that comes the burden of explaining why I would continue to identify with such filthy liars and bastards.

[pnwmom]

14. The Church includes more than a billion members, only a tiny fraction

of whom are members of the hierarchy you hate.

I don't identify with filthy liars and bastards, but I do admire Catholics like Joe Biden and the "nuns on the bus."

[Skittles]

15. perfect?

I don't eat at Chik-Fil-A because I find their homophobic practices offensive, yet I am just supposed to respect it here? And *PLEASE* STOP NAMING PEOPLE; I would ask them the same question

[pnwmom]

16. Catholics are LESS homophobic than the average American voter -- by far.

If that's your big issue, you should be criticizing non-Catholics instead.

In my state gay marriage wouldn't have passed without the Catholic vote. And the same trend holds nationwide.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/08/catholics-gay-marriage-support_n_2835847.html

The Quinnipiac University poll found 54 percent of Catholics support same-sex marriage while just 38 percent are opposed, compared to a 47-43 percent margin among all American voters.

Pope Francis is 76 years old. How many 76 year olds, inside and outside the Catholic Church, do you think support gay marriage?

[Skittles]

17. done here

I'm sure most of the workers at Chik-Fil-A are not homophobic but I refuse to help support THE BUSINESS

[pnwmom]

19. The Church comprises ALL its members, not just the hierarchy. And the laity are not employees.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/08/catholics-gay-marriage-support_n_2835847.html

The Quinnipiac University poll found 54 percent of Catholics support same-sex marriage while just 38 percent are opposed, compared to a 47-43 percent margin among all American voters.

[Skittles]

20. like talking to a wall

[MoclipsHumptulips]

18. Thank You

from the outside looking in here.

I say thank you for this question/post Skittles.

And I say there is no reason at all.

None.



Again Skittles, thanks, you mean a lot.

[Arugula Latte]

43. I don't get that either. If you realize most of what a religion teaches is b.s., what's the point?

And if you want to do "good" in the world, you don't need a church. Volunteer at a food bank, clean cages at an animal shelter, help kids to read, pull invasive plants, whatever -- no church needed. And then you won't be supporting and enabling an institution that crushes women and gays and increases poverty by preventing people from using contraception.

[Skittles]

44. my guess is they are simply unable to leave

due to pressure from family & community - it is sad but that is a big part of religion

[Renew Deal]

30. The same reason you voted for Obama in 2008

[Skittles]

39. in 2008 Obama was homophobic misgogynist?

[Renew Deal]

42. He was anti-marriage equality

Though I don't think most people believed that anyway.

[Whisp]

37. Yeh, I don't get that at all.

If the leader of your faith represents all the faithful of the church on earth, represents God in fact, iirc.

And he is a bigoted asshole but you don't really have to follow his lead, even though God said he is speaking for God himself.

I don't get it. If a Church does not represent you why be in the church?

There has to be much more to it, maybe it's just the 'I'm a member of a big assed club' thing? Maybe it's the Masses and stuff - they can be pretty impressive - all that pomp and stuff.

[Skittles]

40. I think they don't think they have an alternative

that's what they are expected to be so that is what they are

[Lint Head]

4. In 4 years he'll be 80. I see another Pope very soon.

[pnwmom]

5. I've already heard speculation that he might be a "bridge" pope.

And that wouldn't be a terrible thing.

[AngryOldDem]

24. But does that really help with reform?

I don't want to see another Pope John XXIII, who may institute some changes only to have them undermined by his successors.

The Church needs someone who can serve long term if any head way is to be made in cleaning up this mess.

As a former Catholic I'm interested to see how this all plays out. The Church is truly at a crossroads.

[CanonRay]

28. What makes you think anybody in the Vatican wants reform?

I don't see any positive indications. The insiders spend their lives in ease and luxury, being catered to and cared for. Why change? Changing the Catholic Church is harder than turning the Titanic.

[cliffordu]

8. Yea? Well fuck him and the homophobic horse he rode in on.

The clowncar of organized religion needs to be fumigated.

I sam SOOO fucking over this shit.

Fundamentalists are killing us all.

Believe what you will, but keep your fucking faith out of my way.

I'll do the same for you.


Word.

[Ichingcarpenter]

22. I wonder if the new pope

would be allowed to post on DU considering his stances on homosexuality, abortion, contraceptives etc.....LOL

[LuvNewcastle]

25. That's a damn good question!

People are cheering on someone who we wouldn't even allow to associate with us on this board. Thanks for putting things into perspective.

[Quantess]

26. Hah! He could get away with 1000 posts just fine, by flying just under the radar.

We've seen it done before.

[oldhippie]

36. Good point .....

He would be PPRed in a few posts of his ideas.

[ZOB]

27. The Catholic Church has always opposed homosexuality

...and they're entitled to their beliefs.

I think it's pretty unrealistic to expect a pro-LGBT Pope. It's sort of like condemning a pro-choice Pope. You're just never going to see one, because it's in opposition to the core beliefs of Catholicism.

The rest of us are free to simply not be Catholic.

[CanonRay]

29. My sentiments exactly

[Apophis]

41. Agreed.

[AngryOldDem]

23. I think that's what gets lost in all this.

Yes, the Vatican itself and the Corporate Roman Catholic Church are corrupt cesspools. That's why, I think, most Catholics choose to ignore what comes out of Rome in favor of their own spirituality and common sense. Rome realizes this, and also realizes that it's powerless to stop it, hence these ever-increasing lurches to the far right in an effort of reestablish its authority.

To get respect you have to earn it. And over the past several decades (if not longer) the RCC has done precious little to do that with its flock.

Gay marriage, use of contraceptives, etc. -- I think it's been pretty well borne out that a majority of Catholics share mainstream opinions on these, despite what the Vatican says.

[Javaman]

31. My opinion on the new pope...

I think he's been selected for the sole purpose of being a "cleaner". Lots of stuff was going down when ratzo handed in his papers. If anyone had been following the bizarre recent antics of the pope and his crew, you would know that there is something rotten in Denmark.

As a result, when you want something to be fixed, you bring in the Jesuits. On top of that, he's someone from the "outside" (not really but more outside than the others).

While all will appear as "business as usual", there will be a lot of "fixing" of things left over from the last several popes that was "kicked down the road" for someone else to deal with.

This is why, as I stated in another post, there would never ever be an American pope or another Italian pope (for a least a very long time) An American pope is a long shot. Too unpredictable. An Italian pope would continue with the same old same old and nothing would get fixed.

They needed to find a "cleaner" someone that a core of people at the center of the church could trust to take names and kick ass.

So over the next few years you will see various bishops, cardinals, least of all priests, etc be reassigned or retired.

My prediction is: this guy will serve for about 7 to 10 years, then a young (50 to 60 year old) pope will be selected and it will be someone who while it will appear to be the type to follow traditional catholic doctrine, but will actually be the one to institute real reform.

The church realizes that they can't continue on the path they are going. They are losing market share aka parishioners year on year and there are less and less new priests in the pipeline. They have to do something but that something can't happen now until all the obvious corruption is dealt with, because instituting any reform now will knock out any remaining support with the long time followers in a heart beat. By the time Francis moves on, a large portion of the aging devotees, will have also passed on, paving the way for reform, even if those reforms are pretty small.

Just my two cents.

Full disclosure, I'm an Atheist that was brought up catholic, while I don't believe in god or organized religion of any sort, the catholic church is still a fascinating topic for discussion.

[Laelth]

32. Your analysis may be spot-on.

I certainly don't disagree. As a lapsed Catholic, I share your distant interest in the Church's workings. The Cardinals are not stupid, and they know the RCC is in trouble. Something must be done. Whether it's this Pope or the next who reforms the Church remains to be seen, but something must be done. There are not enough new Priests to sustain the religion.

-Laelth

[Javaman]

35. One thing is for sure...

the church works very slowly.

You might be right when you say, "Whether it's this Pope or the next who reforms the Church remains to be seen"

It might not even be the next pope or even the one after that.

[Bluenorthwest]

33. What's the difference between the Pope and Fred Phelps?

The 'rank and file members' who are not homophobic and anti woman need to tell that to their church leadership, not to those who criticize the leadership. If regular members were constantly informing the Pope that they reject his bullshit, regular members would be known and evidenced supporters of equality. As long as they remain 'in the closet' nodding along with the hateful leadership one minute and then denying all the dogma when asked about the ignorance and bigotry then next they just seem like folks who say and do whatever makes them feel good about themselves.

[Skittles]

46. THANK YOU

they are COMPLICIT all the way

[Zorra]

47. Excellent post. Great points. Very true....Locking. nt

[yellowcanine]

34. His opinion on that will matter almost as much as his opinion on contraception!

[yellowcanine]

38. The bigger problem the Catholic Church has is with the lack of women priests.

The patriarchy thing isn't cutting it anymore for many women and the majority of faithful Catholics are women. Therein lies the rub.

[WilliamPitt]

45. This is why there will never be an American pope