Things I've learned on DU - Part 1 - It is 'SEXIST' to hold a door open for a women

[Fix The Stupid]

Consider me educated now.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022511124


I just can't believe this. I do this all the time, I help out women at the grocery store all the time, offer to take their bags to their cars, etc.

I once stopped and helped a little old lady clear her driveway of snow - there she was, about 75 years old, struggling to clear the end of her laneway. I stopped my truck, got out, and took me all of 5 minutes to clear the snow. She was very happy and offered me a coffee...I declined.

Little did I know I was being a 'benevolent sexist'.

Thought I'd seen it all here, lol.

Sad. Sad. Sad.

I will not stop holding the doors open for women, men, turtles, dogs, robots or whatever.

I'm a 'sexist'. or better yet, a 'benevolent sexist'. Yeeesh.

[Buzz Clik]

1. You can "learn" a lot of things at DU that just aren't so.

It happens.

[MineralMan]

2. Nonsense. It is never sexist to assist someone

who needs assistance. As for holding doors, just do it for everyone. That's the polite thing to do.

However, it is possible for what you think to be doing something nice to be sexist. For example, if you rush to open a door for a woman and say, "Let me get that for you, little lady," it's probably a sexist thing you're doing.

The thing is that, if you're opening a door just because the person is a woman, but you wouldn't do it for people who were not women, then your motivation may be sexist. All you have to do is think about why you are doing something.

Clearing the end of someone's driveway is a nice thing to do. I do that for four of my neighbors every time the snow plow goes by and pushes up a windrow of snow into driveway outlets. One of those neighbors is a woman who works during the day. Another is an elderly couple (I'm 67, so elderly means someone over 75 and unable to do that job safely). The other two neighbors have day jobs, too, and it's a bummer to come home from work to find a two-foot high mound of snow blocking your driveway.

Being polite because it's the right thing to do is not sexist.

[unblock]

21. if you do it for everyone, or randomly, then it's not sexist

if you always help women (even when they don't need it) and never help men (even when they do) then of course it's sexist.

it's benevolent, but it's also sexist.

[MineralMan]

22. Yes. I think I said that in my post. nt

[lapislzi]

3. Wait a second.

So, by your own admission, you help women. You don't help "the elderly" or "the disabled," which would only be common courtesy.

You help women because....they are helpless? Because you have a fantasy of being some goody white knight character?

Your penultimate sentence is absurd, and you are, indeed, a sexist.

[Fix The Stupid]

24. Thats absurd.

I help everyone. I hold the door open for everyone, regardless of sex, age, etc.

Common courtesy.

And I am not a sexist.

[lapislzi]

48. So it's not just women?

And your examples were purely anecdotal?

Why your post then? To announce to the world your opinion of DU?

I'm confused.

[kestrel91316]

67. He's not the only DUer who thinks the labelling of opening doors for women

as sexist is completely insane. And I'm a woman and feminist.

IMHO the DUer who yells about this the loudest (I won't name her) has a few screws loose on some days, and the day she made that comment was one of them. And I don't get it - sometimes she's spot on, most the time she makes sense.......but some days she just says the most awful things.

[lapislzi]

81. Believe it or not, I do get this.

It is a point of contention between me and a friend who also considers herself a feminist. We have to agree to disagree. She is aware of the benevolent sexism evident in many apparently benign behaviors, but she chooses to allow herself to accept the mild flattery. The same behaviors make me uncomfortable, but I know there's not much I can do to change them.

[seabeyond]

4. you might actually learn what benevolent sexism is and understand the concept, and why it is harmful

towards women... whether you continue to be helpful or not. understanding takes a person a long way in getting it. or you can be snarky and remain uninformed.

[redqueen]

10. Oh but it is ever so much more fun to get defensive and kneejerkingly throw out

a bunch of 'those feminists have gone too far!' type reactions than to actually read and think, let alone attempt to learn.

[seabeyond]

16. yup. and it take little to no work. certainly no thinking involved. lol. so much easier. nt

[Ian David]

14. I would go out of my way to make the door close on your face.

Not all women.

Just you.

[seabeyond]

17. wow. ok. whatever. nothing like a little hostility going on because someone suggests

a person actually educate himself and know or have a clue what he is ranting about.

[lumberjack_jeff]

32. +100

[galileoreloaded]

79. This is funny. Men, once again, not voting their best interests

by retaining middle age concepts like chivalry without fully understanding it's historical perspective. just like the 'pubs. Fascinating.

[redqueen]

5. You are not being clear.

First you singled out women, then later you said you help men, too.

Which is it?

If you don't single out women, it isn't sexist.

[bemildred]

6. You won't last long here if that sort of thing gets you all upset. nt

[unblock]

7. why not dispute whether or not it's a bad thing. but it's obviously, definitionally, "sexism".

if you're treating women differently, it's by definition "sexism". the term is undeniably appropriate.

the question you want to make is "is benevolent sexism a bad thing".

that's a more interesting question anyway and "what word or term should apply to this".


as the other thread indicated, i do think it's kind in the moment but can lead to longer term problems.

[HERVEPA]

8. Settle down. You didn't learn this. You heard the opinion of some people, that's all.

It bothers some women, most it doesn't.
I think offering to take bags to car for a woman who you have no reason to believe isn't as capable of this as you is a bit sexist (I'm a guy).
For an elderly or infirm person, man or woman, no problem.
And I hold the door for everyone. Just common courtesy.
Peace

[Fix The Stupid]

26. Good point. Thanks n/t

[fadedrose]

33. Sometimes opening a door for someone not disabled...

is a way of flirting. That never happens to me anymore, but I get more young guys opening the door now than when I was young, and I think they are sweet. Even girls at the register call me "honey" or "sweetie."

By the way, I watched a program about Argentina, and you were right about criticizing my opinions. Rachel had a segment about the pope.

Bless you too...

[Recursion]

9. If the worst thing that happens to you today is getting called sexist for holding a door

then things are going pretty well. Relax.

[Fix The Stupid]

28. lol. Yep, put it that way, good point. thanks n/t

[newfie11]

11. As a woman I don't consider that sexist

I consider that good manners. I have held the door open for men if the opportunity worked out that way.

This is just being nice to another human not sexist. IMHO

[Gidney N Cloyd]

13. So is Benevolent Sexism the theme for today?

[theKed]

25. You said the secret word!

[Bicoastal]

41. Holy crap that picture is suggestive. nt

[WorseBeforeBetter]

51. I've made it half a century without "benevolent sexism"...

as part of my vocabulary. Christ, it's a wonder I can function at all.

[onehandle]

15. I held the door open for a dude with his arms full arriving at my office today.

Glad it wasn't a woman.

[leftynyc]

18. You are NOT a sexist

And I would be saying my thanks for you opening a door and helping out with any of the things you listed. If women are so insecure about their own feminism, that is certainly not your problem. Because that's all that crap is - nothing different than men getting bent out of shape about getting hit on by another man - only a man totally insecure in his own masculinity would react badly.

[snooper2]

19. There are positive sexism and negative sexism

Just like positive energy in the universe and negative energy...


I'm working on a new theory

[gollygee]

20. Oh for God's sake

If you're holding it open for "women, men, turtles, dogs, robots, or whatever," it isn't sexist. If you are only holding it open for women because they're women and you feel men specifically should hold doors open for women specifically, then it is benevolent sexism.

I also hold the door open for women, men, turtles, dogs, robots, or whatever. Go for it.

Edited to add that I hope you're not among those who call feminists at DU "outrage trolls" or complain about us being outraged. Because I have a feeling your OP will not be called outrage, when it is, but when feminists respond, regardless of whether they act outraged, we will be called "outrage trolls."

[Fix The Stupid]

40. Not calling anyone an "outrage troll"

No need for any personal attacks to enter any discussions. That's juvenile.

So you feel my OP is "outrage" considering this line?

"because I have a feeling your OP will not be called outrage, when it is,"

Sorry, not outrage, just genuine confusion. I don't get the labeling of 'benevolent sexism''...All these terms and definitions are used divide us, keep us sniping at each other - it's silly.

Where does it end?

Has society done away with these notions as well?

1) A fire alarm goes off - is it still women and children out first? Or should we all just act like selfish pricks and only think of ourselves?
2) A cruise ship is going down - is it still women and children first on the lifeboats or is there a perfect mathematical equation I'm not hip to?? Say a lifeboat holds 20 people - can it be launched with 11 women and 9 men on it? Isn't that sexist too by this definition?

Thanks

[lapislzi]

52. Oh, come now.

There is a huge difference between "women and children first" and "every (man) for (himself.)"

The building is burning, the ship is sinking. The able-bodied, strong people help out the less capable. How is this a difficult concept? And why need it be gender-based?

IF you assume that women are naturally helpless and in need of (male) assistance in an emergency, then you are a sexist. (Kids should be helped no matter what).

[sorefeet]

93. My life lesson at 13 was

in the 7th grade I walked into the office at school and an old teacher was following, I DIDN'T hold the door. She grabbed the closing door and said "thank you". I knew right then that I fucked up, so I hold the door for everyone now days, I'm 60.

[hfojvt]

55. important to keep in mind though

that 13 year olds are NOT children - not if they are male http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1076073

[gollygee]

68. It's been over 100 years now

It might be time to use the past tense. 13-year-old boys WERE not considered children on the Titanic when choosing who was on the lifeboat.

[hfojvt]

82. Are you sure that things have changed in that regard?

That just happens to be the only example that I know of.

[bettyellen]

91. I remember reading about studies of fatal disasters, that men most often trampled kids and women

to get to the exits. I know this was true of airline crashes, I think it might have been shown for other fatal disasters where everyone was rushing for the exits too.

[treestar]

62. In disasters, there is likely all sorts of behavior

That's an emergency. People don't have rules for emergencies. No it should not be women and children first, it should as many people as can be removed from the situation. I can see making children a priority but not either gender.

[gollygee]

69. Well I certainly hope boats have enough lifeboats on them now

Everyone should be given a lifeboat. The Titanic was over 100 years ago.

We need to take care to help children out because they rely on others, but women don't rely on other people to find the exit.

[TreasonousBastard]

23. Well, I made the mistake of reading that thread...

before I logged in and my ignore list kicked in. My eyes bled for a moment and once I realized my mistake, I quickly logged in and it all went away.

The ignore list-- it doesn't exactly, ummm... fix the stupid, but hides it well enough.

(FWIW, I understand that true equality means giving up some "symbolic" privileges, but it just gets out of hand sometimes.)

[fadedrose]

29. I'm 74 and like having the door opened

My arms aren't as strong as they used to be, as witnessed by the flab I try to hide in my upper arms.

I open doors for people who are even older than me, or younger, if they are pushing a wheelchair, driving a cart for disabled people, carrying a big package, are pregnant or are struggling with toddlers, or have big packages, man or woman...

Keep it up. You ARE appreciated, and don't let people who are out looking to criticize others get the best (out) of you...

It's hard not to be nice when you're nice.

[malaise]

30. Please keep it up

I love it.
Last week a new male colleague and I were heading for a meeting - we were both approaching the door and he paused and waited for me to open the door and then walked right through. Hubby and I laughed so loud that night at his awful manners.

[seabeyond]

44. you are employed as a tech. part of job climbing under desk to hook up. fellow employee

Jumps on and is always doing the grunt work cause you are a "lady". he climbs under teh desk each and every time so you are not on the floor. Employer has a promotion. Employer looks at your performance and fellow worker. Employer says she wont go under a desk to plug in. Employer says he is always jumping in to be helpful, carrying the weight of other employees.

He gets the job.

That is benevolent sexism harming women.

He is being nice, helpful, using his manners. And he got the promotion.

[lapislzi]

65. Argh! You have no idea, seabeyond!

Our publisher, an older woman with absolutely zero technological savvy...somehow managed to get a serious computer virus one day recently. Our IT director had left for the day because he was sick.

As this was happening, I was chatting to a male colleague about a work matter. The publisher flew out of her office in a state of high agitation because of her computer problem--not realizing what it was, just in a state of alarm and confusion. I stepped into her office and immediately recognized the problem. As I tried to move in to isolate her machine, she waved me away. "Oh, no! J--- has to look at this! J---! What do you think it is?" J---: "derp."

Derpy not only could not identify the nature of the problem, he failed to either isolate her machine or alert the IT director.

But, you know, women don't know about computers.

[stevenleser]

31. .

[AndyA]

34. Holding a door open for someone is polite, not sexist.

I do it for men, women, children. It's being considerate of others. I also try to smile at people if we happen to make eye contact, it just might be the only smile they get that day. It takes zero effort, and it's the right thing to do.

I've never had anyone object to my holding a door open for them, and almost always receive a thank you for doing so.

I think so many people today are so thoughtless to others. A little respect and consideration for fellow humans would go far in solving the issues around the world today.

[Xipe Totec]

35. You were doing just fine. Then you posted this.

If you're doing what you think is right then do it but don't whine about it.

[Fix The Stupid]

43. I'm not whining about it. I resent being labeled a 'benevolent sexist'. n/t

[Xipe Totec]

50. whine (n): A peevish complaint, esp one repeated. nt

[demwing]

59. peevish (adj): Easily irritated, esp. by unimportant things.

For instance, if you're telling a stranger on an Internet forum that his post is whiney, you may be a bit peevish

[geek tragedy]

54. Rule #1 of the Internet: If someone does not say they're talking

about you, they are not talking about you.

Since no one had the opportunity to examine your specific daily actions , or discuss your detailed accounts of your daily actions, they wouldn't have been talking about you.

Long story short: No one said "'Fix the Stupid'" is a benevolent sexist."

[lapislzi]

77. Make up your mind about your own behavior.

If your door and snow removal assistance is gender-based, you are probably a sexist. If you are an equal-opportunity assister, you may be a sexist, but at least you're polite.

[lumberjack_jeff]

36. I appreciate it when someone holds the door for me.

I know that the person doing it isn't doing it because I'm deserving of special treatment in that regard.

But "holding the door" and "holding the door for women" are two different things. If it weren't asymmetric treatment based on gender, there would be no need for the prepositional phrase at the end.

I think many male feminists really are just benevolent sexists who don't like thinking all that much.

[Upton]

37. It's not sexist..least not in my opinion.

Just to make sure though, next time a women is following me in a door, I'll just let it slam in her face. If she demonstrates any outrage, I'll calmly explain to her that helping her now would hurt all women in the long run. It's the "patriarchy" making me do it doncha know? Then I'll gauge her reaction and go from there.

[geek tragedy]

38. Helping a little old lady shovel her snow is admirable and not

susceptible to criticism on any level, imo.

Offering to help a healthy 27-year old woman with ripped biceps carry a single bag of groceries would be a little on the weird side.

Context is everything, and good intent can get misread.

Is this meta, by the way?

[liberal_at_heart]

39. I don't consider it sexist

Men and women hold the door open for me sometimes and I simply say thank you. Sometimes I open the door for other people men and women included. It seems there's a lot you're not allowed to be these days. You're not allowed to be religious and you're not allowed to be polite. Well, I will go on being both. I really don't care what other people think of my thoughts, beliefs, or actions, and good for you for continuing to open doors for people as well.

[magical thyme]

42. there is a fine line between civility and sexism....my take is this

If somebody male or female is obviously struggling with something, offering assistance isn't sexist; it's common decency.

If I'm struggling under a 48 pound bag of dog food and somebody bigger and stronger offers to help me, I'll usually take it (unless I'm almost done and it's more trouble to get out from under the load than shove it into the trunk of my car, lol). That's not sexist. That's common decency. Likewise, if I see somebody smaller and weaker struggling with something I can do easily I will offer to help.

But if you offer to carry some small thing simply because I'm a woman, and even worse, if handing it over to you requires additional exertion on my part so you can "prove" your manliness, that is sexist and annoying.

Likewise, if you reach the door before I do and hesitate a moment to hold it open for me versus letting it slam shut in my face, that is not sexist that is common decency. Whoever gets to the door first, male or female, should hold it open if otherwise it will slam in somebody else's face.

But if you practically run me down to force your way to the door ahead of me, or if you stand there holding it forever, pretty much forcing me to hurry to the door, then that is sexist and annoying. (It never fails that some idjit does that when I still have halfway across the parking lot to walk and I just want to amble along and enjoy the sunny day thinking my thoughts.)

As far as helping the old woman with the shoveling, would you have stopped if she was a he? Or if she was 35? Or was it because she was 75? Because maybe you weren't being sexist, maybe you were being ageist? Seriously, if somebody is struggling with shoveling, man or woman, certainly it is reasonable to offer help.

(BTW, I'm pushing 60, live in Maine and have about 200' of shoveling to do with every major snowstorm. Feel free to swing by and shovel to your heart's content. I promise I won't call you sexist and you can have all the coffee you want. )

[gvstn]

45. It's interesting

I always hold the door for anyone close behind me. I give guys about 3 steps behind me and for women I will usually give them about 5 steps. I guess it is benevolent sexism (and I have thought as much in the past) but I would rather be accused of that rather than poor manners. I see so many people that don't even look behind them when letting doors swing shut which I consider rude that I won't break my habits.

To throw gas on the fire, I have also noticed that in upscale places many more people hold doors to assist than in poorer places. So I can't be the only one that considers this just good manners. My example would be when going to an upscale mall like King of Prussia with my disabled mother just about everyone will stop what they are doing and help her by holding doors, not so much in our local mall. It is distinctly noticeable.

[bhikkhu]

46. My aunts taught me that in the 70's

Being nice and considerate is generally welcome, but being condescending, superior, and oblivious isn't. There's good and bad ways to do it, and its not rocket science to tell the difference.

[treestar]

47. Don't help them if they don't need it

Help them if they need it, male or female. Help old men but not strong young women. Very simple. The little old lady would need help with the driveway. Most of us can take bags to our cars, but maybe older ones might need help. Maybe old men need help with carrying bags.

Women can do it too. If still young or middle aged, why wouldn't we help old ladies with heavy things? Don't see why this chivalry has to be based on gender alone.

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. What do you think of the phrase "cooking meals for men"?

Does that carry any negative connotations?

[Fix The Stupid]

56. Where/when is that prase used? Whats that mean?

Do you mean like a marketing campaign or something?

[whatchamacallit]

53. I hold the door for anyone, but I let women enter and exit the elevator first

even if I'm before them. Weird, never really thought about what that says until now... I guess I should blame my mom, she taught me all that offer her your coat, push in her seat... nonsense. Dumb old sexist mom!

[lumberjack_jeff]

66. Chivalry and equality are incompatible. n/t

[whatchamacallit]

88. Apparently so n/t

[sufrommich]

57. Ironically, the posters who complain about those

they deem "easily outraged" are either no where to be found in this thread or expressing their outrage right along with the OP.I wonder if you would stop to shovel the snow of a perfectly fit 20 year old woman, it sounds more like you help the elderly,regardless of gender.Benevolent sexism is an old term which doesn't mean a lot in modern society anymore where people are more likely to open doors for whoever is behind them and help people they see struggling. Your outrage seems a little forced and meant to demean feminists.

[cali]

58. really? You learned that from the linked thread?

because a few people here said that opening doors solely for women is an indication of "benevolent sexism"?

Pathetic.

[Fix The Stupid]

70. Do you think it is "benevolent sexism"?

And why the passive aggressive dig at the end?

[cali]

73. Not passive aggressive. straight out contemptuous of your passive aggressive post.

as for whether or not opening doors for women is benevolent sexism, I personally tend to view it as courtesy. I don't assume that if a man opens a door for me, it's because of benevolent sexism- which I do believe is quite real.

[Fix The Stupid]

80. Stay classy :)

[ljm2002]

60. I'm a woman...

...and I appreciate it when someone holds a door open for me, just as I would hold a door open for someone else if I got there first and they were close behind me -- whether they are a man or a woman.

Another thing, though: I have had men leap in front of me in order to open the door for both of us. I don't get insulted, but do find it strange. And I have had a male companion get insulted when I opened the door for both of us. That, too, is strange.

In other words, it's just common courtesy. If someone gets offended at an offer of help, maybe they need to examine their own attitudes. And anyone, of either sex and any political persuasion, can have a chip on their shoulder.

[backtoblue]

61. you've also learned to stir shit that has already been stirred, sir.

you could have just posted in the linked post instead of instigating an ongoing problem with your OP.


in other news, you could have learned that we are close to curing AIDs
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022511797#post1

[Fix The Stupid]

71. I'll pm you next time to ask your permission. Thanks n/t

[backtoblue]

75. It would be easier on me if everyone would do that!

lol

FWIW: The debate over what is sexist and what isn't and what could/might turn into sexism is an ongoing discussion here at DU and folks have very strong opinions about it.

Sometimes, people come here just to stir up trouble within the site and this very issue is a major one.

It makes people have heated debates instead of meaningful discussions on the subjects. I hope that you weren't trying to do that, but you seemed very offended in your OP over a subject that would have been easily researched or asked about in the thread you referred to.

Either way, welcome to DU! There is alot to offer here and I'm sure you'll stumble upon some very interesting stuff.

Take care.

[Fix The Stupid]

72. Is this Du'er 'shit-stirring" too?

Will you please post your reply in this thread as well?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022512182#post19

Thanks

[Tikki]

63. Open the door for both men and women and children you will hear a lot of "thank you"..

and that will feel grand.


Tikki

[woodsprite]

64. IMO, as long as you walk through the door when a woman holds it open for you,

then you're not being sexist.

I've been in situations before where a man wouldn't walk through a door I was holding because it was 'his job' to hold the door for the woman. He was a coworker in our building. Puhleeze! He could have just said "thank you" and gone through rather than pitching a fit about it.

[SomethingFishy]

74. Things I learned on DU...

Lots of people are full of shit. If I hold a door for someone it's because I am trying to be nice. If someone wants to make something of that on the internet then that is their prerogative. I'm certainly not going to stop and wonder if I'm being sexist every time I open a fucking door.

[NCTraveler]

76. Reading is fundamental, Fix The Stupid. nt.

[Bok_Tukalo]

78. Epic!

God, I love the Internet.

[NCTraveler]

83. Please don't make us wait long for part II. Thanks. nt.

[ZombieHorde]

84. Lately, I have been toying with the idea that most people are reasonable,

and disagreements are largely based on misunderstandings, miscommunications, and assumed motive.

The benevolent sexist idea concerning door holding, if I understand it correctly, says that if a man holds a door open for women, but not men, then there is probably a reason for this behavior.

[lumberjack_jeff]

89. LOL!

Sorry, the subject line struck me as very funny for some reason.

As for the rest of the post? I agree.

[dawg]

85. "Sexist" is just another term that means different things to different people.

I'm more likely to hold the door for a woman than I am for a man. Of course, I would certainly hold the door, or give up my seat, for a frail older man as well. In general, I usually hold the door open for anyone following close behind me. But I will always hold the door for a woman, regardless of her age or condition. (Unless she has already indicated to me that she doesn't like that sort of treatment; a thing that has never happened to me in real life.)

Does that make me sexist? It depends on your definition of sexist, and for a lot of people that does make me sexist. And that's fine. They can define me any way they want; that's not how I define myself.

[Cleita]

86. I hold doors open for women and I'm a woman.

I also do for men. It's just impolite to slam a door in someone's face. Sometimes ideology goes to strange places. I would ignore it and do what you always have been doing.

[ismnotwasm]

87. I'll hold the door open for anyone

It's a courtesy.

[Squinch]

90. THAT'S what you learned on DU? And THAT'S what you took from the thread you referenced?

Is your user name a cry for help?

[In_The_Wind]

92. D'oh! I am a woman who is a 'benevolent sexist'!

I hold the door open for both sexes.
I always have. I always will!

[img][/img]


[img][/img]

[img][/img]

[unreadierLizard]

94. it might just be me

but i hold the door open for women and men.

but robots? hell no! does that make me a robot sexist?

[Oilwellian]

96. I love those who feign victim to being unfairly labeled a sexist...

and while doing so, exposes the fact they don't know the difference between the words woman and women.

[NaturalHigh]

97. I'm usually not on DU on the weekends.

Being here this past weekend, one of the things I've learned from DU is that people get crazier on the weekend.