Shall We Bring Back 19th Century Etiquette?

[MineralMan]

That would be a glorious thing to see in 2013.

We could, once again:

Bow politely to each other - That works nicely for the Japanese.
Tip our hats at passers-by - That would provide jobs for unemployed hatmakers.
Write invitations and thank you notes in longhand - A very genteel sort of thing to do.
Entertain our friends regularly with lovely dinners at home - Ever so much nicer than eating fast food, I think.
Begin leaving cards when we visit - Even if the person we're visiting is "not at home."
Sit in parlors and discuss current events - Conversation has become a lost art.

Or perhaps not. Such are the musings of an old man with a collection of 19th Century etiquette books...

[MineralMan]

1. On the other hand, perhaps all that is needed for today's

etiquette is one rule:

Before shaking hands with another person, it's polite to wipe the Cheetos dust from your hand on your trousers.

[rrneck]

41. In some countries

it's only proper to eat Cheetos with your left hand.

[MineralMan]

43. Well, I should think so!

Why, any properly raised person knows that. Besides people who are left-handed are such a bore at dinner, arms all akimbo and so forth. A properly-raised person learns to use the right hand correctly.

But as for countries with medieval toilet habits, one wouldn't have a person from such a place in one's home in any case, would one? Of course Ambassadors and the like usually have learned proper behavior to some degree, so they can be admitted, if necessary.

[hlthe2b]

2. I think there is a middle ground... basic politeness (regardless of gender)

That includes being aware of what is around you and your body in relation to others... Even without the incessant cell phone use, I can't tell you how many times I have been struck by flailing arms or literally stepped on by those persistently fixated on themselves and oblivious to all others. Not to mention the people who let doors slam in the face of those a mere step behind them--even when that person is on crutches.

[MineralMan]

3. Exactly. All etiquette is based on the

idea that you are not the most important person on the planet.

Remembering that would eliminate the need for any formal etiquette.

[justiceischeap]

4. Let's not forget that women should extend their hands first

for a handshake. It's rude otherwise for a man to offer first.

[MineralMan]

6. Well, of course. In fact, if you have not been

properly introduced, it's impolite to impose yourself on the person in the first place.

One can ask a mutual friend for an introduction, of course, but that friend should check with the other person to make sure such an introduction is appropriate. It can be very complicated, indeed.

[justiceischeap]

31. I actually learned that little tidbit from the mayor of my small town

when I was in middle school. I made notice that he had extended his hand to the boys near me but not to me. That's when he explained that it was rude unless I'd offered.

I think some manners are funny but I love to learn about them because I think they're something we're losing touch with.

[MineralMan]

33. That's interesting. The town mayor was clearly from a

different school of etiquette at the time. All of that is why I've been reading old etiquette books for years. I love the subject, for its glimpse into life during other periods of history.

[Recursion]

18. That's one I do, too

Just something I picked up growing up Southern. Sometimes it makes me come off as aloof; it's just kind of ingrained.

[snappyturtle]

5. Yes, it would be a glorious thing!

Recently I watched all the "Downton Abbey" series online. The tenor of the language was a wonder to hear. Even in disagreement the spoken civility was evident. No swearing, no stomping or verbal tantrums, just plain, but eloquent, speech.

I still write thank yous longhand....so many comment on it when I do and feel special...which is what I intend! Cards are wonderful too. I made personal cards and fabric 'cases' for them a few Christmasses ago for my female friends and relatives. I find them so handy when asked for my address when I'm standing at a service counter, etc. and use them rather than verbally announcing to all present behind me my address. Also easy to be attached to a delivery order. They were lots of fun to make but I did get the feeling that I had grown a third head! However, no one laughed when I explained their usefulness.

AHhhh....etiquette....I also wrapped up an etiquette book in fancy paper and left it for the neighborhood mother/bully. I think she figured out who left it but.....I hope she got the point.

I would love to host a dinner and have real conversation....but I fear reality teevee and sporting events would take preference. We can dream though, can't we?

[MineralMan]

34. Dinners among friends are really a very nice thing to do.

They can be hosted by different people in their own homes. Our group does it several times a year, on a rotating basis. We're four old married couples, without children living at home. One person at least in each couple is a good cook, so the food is always good. We've all known each other for years, so it's always comfortable being together. It's a very nice tradition to have, and keeps those relationships going.

[snappyturtle]

35. Sounds like heaven to me! nt

[Cleita]

7. No, that etiquette was reserved for the upper classes and the

bourgeoisie who wanted to imitate them. They never used the same etiquette with their servants and underlings. They treated those "little people" very rudely just like the trust fund babies and nouveau riche do today.

[MineralMan]

9. Oh, dear! I had no idea. Well, that idea is right out, then.

I was being a bit facetious with my OP. I'm sorry for your confusion.

[Cleita]

13. Let me expand.

Amy Vanderbilt, who was the authority on etiquette back in my day, even said that good manners is really about being kind to the person you are dealing with. You make them feel comfortable in your presence and they should do the same. Conventions like bowing and curtsying and the modern day versions we do are not written in stone and really not necessary. They are nice but not important in the overall spirit of being polite and courteous.

[MineralMan]

20. Yes, I see. Well, Mrs. Vanderbilt is quite the

Johanna come lately in terms of proper behavior. Her ideas are decidedly pedestrian, and she certainly would not be welcome in my circles under any circumstances.

BTW, I'm currently working on an etiquette book for the 21st Century. It will be quite amusing, I assure you.

[Cleita]

25. I'm sure it will be amusing. I'm counting on it.

[MineralMan]

26. It's a spare time writing project that I work

on between paid jobs. It'll be an ebook. I don't have a solid completion date, though.

[sibelian]

14. Well, why not just do it for everybody?

Keep the nice bit and throw away the crap bit.

[Cleita]

15. Exactly, but that was not what was done in the previous centuries.

Courtesies were for only one class.

[snappyturtle]

36. In Downton Abbey the Lord and Lady had respect for their 'underlings'.

They realized that they needed these people as much as the 'underlings' needed them although the separation of class was forever persistent. Maybe in true historical sense the relationship wouldn't have existed however, my reply was intended to point out the language, the actual words, they used to communicate. There were some great barbs tossed back and forth but done in such a way that I could see its usefulness AND humor.

[Cleita]

37. That's just fiction. Read some Dickens for what really occurred in a fictional setting.

Also Jane Austen had a pretty sharp eye for what was going on between the classes.

[MineralMan]

40. Actually that varied a lot from household to household.

As time went by, it became harder and harder to find people willing to work in service. As that happened, their lot improved and people started treating their service staff better. Throughout the period, there were households who treated their employees well, along with households that didn't.

Most of the etiquette books written in the last half of the 19th century had chapters on relationships with household staff. It was interesting to see how things changed with time. Of course, following WWI, at least in the US, houses with staffs became fewer and fewer, and the etiquette and home management books of the time reflected that, focusing a lot on the home with no staff at all.

Pre-1800, it's very hard to find many etiquette books. I find that interesting. I have a couple of French ones and British ones from the 18th century, and one German one, which is difficult for me to read.

George Washington actually wrote an etiquette book, something not many people know. However, it was essential a transcription of a French book, translated and simplified by Washington. Interesting reading, though.

[Cleita]

46. Having lived in Chile back when there were definite distinctions between the classes,

I saw a lot of rudeness from the upper classes directed to the obreros or working class. Maybe they didn't mistreat them, but they definitely did not afford them the same courtesies they gave their own peer group. They made sure that they felt inferior. I don't think England or Europe at large was very different and those manners were inherited from the nineteenth century.

[snappyturtle]

50. Again, I was only pointing out the civility of the speech used in the series.

Austen and Dickens pre-dated the period depicted in the series. Austen by almost a hundred years at her death and Dickens by forty years. Downton Abbey writers went to length to depict the changes that were coming for the aristocracy....changing roles for women, the keeping of vast estates and the 'underlings' roles intermingled in it all. One daughter, a political activist married the Irish chauffeur, another became a writer for a London paper....lots of conflicts from what had been probably better times (traditionally) for the uber riche. These were globally changing times and I've found no review stating gross inaccuracies for the period....and I am certain the Brits would point it out. imho

[DrDan]

8. a return to face-to-face conversations regarding current events would be a pleasant move forward

imagine having to put aside personal insults, offensive language/comments and once again be polite

[MineralMan]

10. My wife and I still entertain with dinners for our

friends. Our dining room seats eight comfortably. That kind of conversation is pretty common around our house.

[Cleita]

28. Oh to be a fly on the wall!

When I lived in Chile, I often went to dinner where Americans, Brits, Nazis, Communists and various other political and cultural specters were seated around the table. Now those conversations really got interesting. Oh the cooks and servers, local indigenous people of lower class status, weren't invited to the table.

[MineralMan]

29. Well, my wife and I are decidedly local indigenous people.

So are our friends. Our dinners, which move from home to home several times during the year, do not include anyone who is not a local indigenous person. Not much ceremony is involved.

However, in another time and place, when I was much more solvent financially, I hosted a formal Christmas holiday dinner for 24 people. It was a 19th Century British style dinner, based on a real menu from such a dinner. It was done by subscription, so the cost was divided among all of us, but I planned it and made it happen.

The idea was to actually experience the entire thing as if we were doing it then. It was held in the dining room of an old mansion which had become an event venue. We hired a staff to prepare and serve the meal, and we were all dressed to match the period. The servers were all local actors, and costumes were rented. I did a little Victorian etiquette guide for the thing, and showed the servers how it should be served in the style of that time. They were very well paid. We even had a butler to oversee the entire service and pour the wine. The dinner was prepared by a local chef, and included a boar's head and seven courses.

All of the people who participated really got into the spirit and character of the thing, and a great time was had by everyone. From beginning to end, the event lasted over six hours, from sherry before dinner service began to brandy, coffee and cigars following the meal. As a bit of historical theater, it was a huge success. The company was delightful. As a meal, it was extraordinary. As an expense, it was frightful.

[Cleita]

47. Historical theater is fine as long as you don't believe that is how it should be. n/t

[DrDan]

56. that's great

nothing better than a few couples sitting around a comfortable dining room table, some good food, some good wine . . . a few laughs, some good conversation

it seems the internet has robbed us of that pleasure

that said, we look forward to dinner with (new) friends tomorrow evening

just not often enough anymore it seems

[snooper2]

11. I believe in extremes so it's either that..

or we go full Beastie Boys style

[Initech]

12. Would such etiquette apply to ye olde social networking sites?

[MineralMan]

22. Such venues are decidedly not appropriate

for people who were properly raised, I assure you.

[baldguy]

16. And if someone feels offended - PISTOLS AT DAWN!

[Cleita]

19. Don't forget to throw down the gauntlet. Not proper etiquette if you don't.

[Recursion]

21. I'm pro-dueling, but only with swords

I spent years learning to fence, and I want that investment to pay off.

[sibelian]

27. I'm pro-duelling but only with epithets.

"Do please forgive my memory, it had placed you momentarily among those rejoicing in ordinary competence".

[JVS]

17. Hell no! I'm leaving the seat up to avoid benevolent sexism and I'm loving it.

[RC]

39. By Jove, I think you have captured the spirit of DU.

[oldhippie]

54. LOL! I love it!

I gotta remember that one.

[pipi_k]

55. OK...

that made me laugh!!

[Silent3]

23. Is there an app for that? n/t

[MineralMan]

24. Not that I know of, but it's a great idea!

I'll send royalty checks.

[sibelian]

30. Increased niceness all round, says I.

Whyever not?

[deutsey]

32. It would go nicely with the 19th century economy we're bringing back

[REP]

38. I write thank-you notes in longhand and have calling cards ...

... but I'll let a much better writer speak:

I know. I am not blaming him. It is his way, isn't it? But it made such a difference to me that you didn't do it. You see, really and truly, apart from the things anyone can pick up (the dressing and the proper way of speaking, and so on), the difference between a lady and a flower girl is not how she behaves, but how she's treated. I shall always be a flower girl to Professor Higgins, because he always treats me as a flower girl, and always will; but I know I can be a lady to you, because you always treat me as a lady, and always will.

[MineralMan]

42. Yes, that's very well put.

Learning proper etiquette was a viable way to advance one's social status, and it became even more viable after WWI. Young men and women who learned how to behave found it less difficult to move into circles that would have once been impossible to enter. Through employment and advancement, along with other things, it became possible to creep into polite society, although there was always a stigma based on family history. Still...things began to change and are still changing.

[REP]

48. Pygmalion was written in 1916 - two years before the end of WWI

"The English have no respect for their language, and will not teach their children to speak it. They spell it so abominably that no man can teach himself what it sounds like."

Language was a thing with Shaw; he references Sweet in the Preface: "With Higgins's physique and temperament Sweet might have set the Thames on fire. As it was, he impressed himself professionally on Europe to an extent that made his comparative personal obscurity, and the failure of Oxford to do justice to his eminence, a puzzle to foreign specialists in his subject." etc.

[lunatica]

44. The ruder that human interactions are becoming in the media and in Washington DC

The more I notice that people are becoming much more polite in public. People smile at strangers now. They hold doors open. They help each other out. They have short exchanges. It's like people are choosing to counteract the rudeness that seems to be taking over. I know I started doing it because the world I want to live in is much friendlier than what we seem to be headed for. I think a lot of people have come to the same conclusion.

[MineralMan]

45. Polite behavior is infectious.

We need an epidemic of it in this country, I think, so infect as many people as you can.

[Marr]

49. I'm not exactly sure of your point.

Are you suggesting that the little pieces of etiquette that define good manners are outdated? Most of the examples you cite probably are outdated, but I must observe 50 others through the course of an average day that aren't. I take my hat off when I enter a building, hold the door for the person behind me, etc., etc. These little things are hardly inconvenient, and their aggregate effect is, imho, actually beneficial. They make us feel like we fit.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

51. People stampede over you in malls.

They don't look where they are going and are very rude.

They yak on their cell phones while making a purchase at a retail store.

They don't look up and mow people down.

I was at the Houston Galleria last Sunday and the herds were quite thick.

The luxury goods stores (Chanel, Ferragamo, Hugo Boss, Vuitton, etc.) were rather deserted. Neiman-Marcus was fairly busy.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

52. Well, sir, we did get rid of Meta ...

... that's a start.

[Squinch]

53. My grandfather, born in the 19th Century, used to say, "there's no such thing as the good old days."

Because if you lived in the 19th Century, life pretty much sucked.

[Bonobo]

57. When people wore hats and dressed up to go out, even to a ball game with ties...

People then understood the different between the "private self" and the "public self".

In public, they were on their best behavior because they knew that, in society, each person plays a "role". In a very real sense, when you are in public, you are not nly your self, you are playing a social role in the collective.

So no, wearing "whatever you want" (because you need 24-7 self-expression?) at all times was out.

But politeness and good behavior was in.

It is still that way in Japan and I think it was good.

[madinmaryland]

58. No thanks.