Father Matt Ashe, S.J. and the phenomenon of the broad brush

[WilliamPitt]

Last edited Fri Mar 15, 2013, 04:58 PM - Edit history (2)

My grandfather's roommate in college was named Matt Ashe. The two were well-matched, both very bookish, but they got put in a room with four football players who would pile the mattresses up and basically beat the shit out of each other. Matt and my grandfather eventually got a separate room, and began what became an incredible life-long friendship.

After college, Matt entered the seminary, became a Jesuit priest, and was ever after Father Matt Ash, S.J. (Society of Jesus). His life was spent entirely on missionary work...not the conquering sort the Jesuits are known for in history, but actually helping people. He literally spent 30 years teaching, serving and ministering to leper colonies. Yes, leper colonies.

When he became too old for that, we had the privilege of his company at a number of Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners. He was kind, witty, intelligent, and told the grandest stories from the incredible depth of his long experiences. He and my grandfather were the same age, but Matt looked fifty years older because of all the mileage he'd piled up doing his life's work with the weakest and sickest in the world.

Father Matt Ashe presided over my grandparent's 50th wedding anniversary ceremony, in which they re-took their vows. We brought in family from all points on the compass, and had the ceremony at the Campion Center in Weston where Matt lived (there are Campion Centers wherever there are Jesuits; they are the retirement homes for elderly SJ priests). Matt was a week away from going on machines to stay alive, but was bound and determined to preside over this mass for his best friends in the world, so we went to him.

He stood up before us, and said in a papery-thin voice, "I am so very happy to be here."

And then he fell, and was dead before he hit the ground. A massive heart attack. He died doing what he loved, with those he loved best, and though it was quite probably the single most fucked up thing I've ever seen happen with my own eyes, there was a terrible beauty to it that even my grandfather came to appreciate. Matt went out exactly, precisely the way he would have wanted to.

His funeral mass was held in a huge church, and there was not a seat to be found. All the people he had touched were there to say farewell, and it was standing-room only. Fifteen of his fellow priests performed the mass together.

My point: Not all Catholic priests are pedophiles and enablers. Some are actual living saints, and good men besides...so when you're tempted to break out the broad brush, remember Father Matt Ashe, S.J., who gave his whole life to ministering to people you and I would likely run screaming from.

When you criticize the church for its homophobia, its misogyny, its authoritarianism, the pedophilia scandal and all the rest, you're not wrong at all.

Just remember that some of us were lucky enough to know men like Matt Ashe, and the broad brush doesn't always fit.

Oh, and P.S., this is coming from someone who had John Goehgan for a CCD teacher. If the name isn't familiar, go look it up.

[CurtEastPoint]

1. Thank you.

[hedgehog]

2. Thank you for your testimony!

[RobertEarl]

3. Indeed, Will

True Christians such as your friend are a treasure. Not in gold, but in good deeds. Wish I knew a man such as your friend.

[Melinda]

4. Oh my gosh, tears and more tears....

This is one of the most beautiful tributes I've ever read. What a blessing Father Matt was, how very lucky your Grandfather has been to have held his friendship so tight. Lots of tears here, Will... thank you for this.

[corneliamcgillicutty]

5. Thank you for your beautiful tribute. We had our dear Father Harry.

He was a kind intelligent humble man who had a grand sense of humor. Harry baptized, married and buried family members. Everyone who knew him loved and respected him and we are so blessed to have him in our lives. He was promoted to the highest position within his order but was always the humble guy from a blue collar family. So I can identify with your "broad brush" declaration and am most appreciative of your sharing your story of Fr. Matt Ashe. Goodness does shine through!

[Raven]

6. And one more thing about Matt Ashe...

in his younger days, he looked like Carey Grant. He was one of the most handsome men I have ever seen.

[WilliamPitt]

7. ^^^ My mom ^^^

for those not in the know.

[Bluenorthwest]

8. I wonder if it would mean anything to you to understand that many of us DO know such people

as Father Matt, and that is WHY we call out the corruption and rape and bigotry. I don't understand how you can hold good people up as a shield for bigots and rapists. Is that not also a sort of 'broad brush'? To say in effect 'the evil in this group is mitigated by this man, Matt' is to exploit the good for the sake of the not so good.
Those who call out bigotry and child abuse need remember nothing but the harm done to the victims of those who practice such things.

[WilliamPitt]

10. Did you see my reply in that other thread?

And that's not what I'm saying. Matt is not a "shield" for anything. Just a fact among facts.

[Bluenorthwest]

14. But when calling out a bigot, I should think of Matt and do what? Be nicer to the bigot?

Just not sure what your point is. Do you think those who are angered at the child abuse are only angry because we have not known good Catholics? That we'd be more accepting of the prejudice and hate speech if we knew some cool socialist nuns?
I think those who know people like Matt should be the leaders of the protests against the bad people.

[WilliamPitt]

15. No.

This thread, and the other in which I drafted a long response to you, was not in any way about trying to tell you how to feel. I was attempting to explain how we Catholics feel. But I feel like I'm not getting anywhere, which is probably my fault, and I'm sorry for it.

I have, at no point in our two-day-long discussion, told you at any point that you were wrong, or told you how I think you should feel. That was not the point.

[Bluenorthwest]

26. And gee Will, I did not claim you told me how to think or feel.

I asked you what your point was. Your post said that because of good people like Matt, something should apply when discussing the bigots and rapists.
I asked you how I should apply what you are talking about to discussion in order to not offend unnecessarily.
I remained in the Democratic Party for many years when the Party did not include gay people, nor our rights in process nor in platform. So I get the 'change it from within' idea.
I do not get deflecting criticism by saying 'it is only the leadership' and then also getting upset at criticism of the leadership. The thread that said 'fuck the pope' was said to be an insult to all Catholics, by people who had also claimed that they do not agree with the leadership on birth control, abortion, gay rights, you name it. It is their faith, but they don't believe it, but if another offers any criticism of actual hate speech by leadership, that is an insult to the rank and file.
It gets painful to read this stuff.
And why don't the faith folk think to just say 'sorry my leadership says your family is Satanic in nature'? That's what is called for.

[pnwmom]

12. That is NOT what motivates the hatred of people here

who say some of the things I've read in recent days. Not, for example, the person who said the Church was nothing but a pedophile sex ring.

[Bluenorthwest]

16. Does that faith teach anything about how one is to bear witness? I think it does.

I don't think characterization meets the standard. You ask that I take your word as if it was offered without bias.
Is it your contention that there is no pedophilia problem in that organization? Or are you rather offering that there are metrics for such things, levels of child abuse that should not meet virulent outrage from the community of adults who are not child abusers?
Is it worse that some harmed children, or that someone said something about the church that
you feel was overstated? Are the wrongs at all comparable?
I think part of the problem is that some people were not angry enough about the abuse, not that some were too angry.

[pnwmom]

20. I said that "some" of the comments were like that.

And I mentioned one specific comment, that was removed after an alert and a vote of 5 to 1.

I am not disputing the fact that the Church has had a very serious problem with sex abuse (though it is not alone among institutions with this problem). But this does not mean that the whole church is NOTHING BUT a "pedophile sex ring."

And of course I'm not claiming that the anti-Catholic bigotry I've seen is worse than or even comparable to the sexual abuse of children. Nothing compares to that. But broad-brushed smears of all Catholics is still bigotry, and it existed long before the problem of child molestation came to light.

[jsr]

28. "Prove you're not a pedophile supporter - Leave your church NOW!"

is what they've been saying.

It's like saying

"Joe Biden: Prove you're not a pedophile supporter - Leave your church NOW!"

This blind guilt by association is utterly foolish.

[Bluenorthwest]

29. Ah, so the fact that other institutions have the same problem mitigates it somehow?

I just don't agree with that attitude. I think the crimes are grave and the nature of the organization makes such crimes even worse. To say 'Johnny did it too' has no bearing nor weight.
And the quote you are so upset about got removed by DUers. So you are still upset, although it is gone and you offer no others like it.
Where are the broad brush smears of Catholics? You keep claiming they are all over DU. But when asked you can not show evidence that this is the case. Show me what rises to the level that it should be listed along with international, institutional, pervasive child abuse.

[HiPointDem]

45. Prove you don't support torture and murder: renounce your US citizenship now. You're

enabling more torture and murder by not doing so.

[DevonRex]

47. Perfect analogy. I hardly ever agree with you. And I am not Catholic.

But I've observed many and have learned a lot. It would mean leaving their homes, neighborhoods, even towns. Family celebrations. Sometimes the families altogether. It is that serious a thing to people who have been Catholic since the beginning of the church. Popes and priests and scandals come and go. The Church, family tradition and faith remain.

[HiPointDem]

48. we could say the same thing to protestants, as it's protestant churches & american missionaries

who pumped up the 'kill the gays' tide in uganda.

[DevonRex]

54. Yes, it is. Fundy missionaries.

My brother is a Fundy minister. All my siblings are still fundies. One is almost virulent in her homophobia. I left that life long, long ago. Married a Catholic. I know very well which group of people, not necessarily church hierarchy, but which group of people is the more liberal and loving and open. Its the Catholic membership hands down.

[Humanist_Activist]

57. That is a stupid analogy, renounce U.S. citizenship and become stateless...

that means being unable to hold a passport in any country, nor any work visa, your choice is to starve and die, or go to a country without these requirements and work as practically a slave with no legal protections.

[pnwmom]

60. There obviously is no way to satisfy you, so why bother?

First you complain that I didn't offer any specifics. Then when I do, you complain that I didn't offer ENOUGH examples to suit you, and that the one I offered shouldn't matter to me because it was later "hidden."

Sorry, but the last thing I want to do is search for additional bigoted and hurtful posts, the details of which I've managed to forget.

Thousands of of Catholics may read these posts before they're hidden, so they do matter.

[BuddhaGirl]

9. thank you

It's refreshing to see this thread. Too many hatefests going on recently

[pnwmom]

11. And I knew a few sisters I'd put in the same category.

Thanks for this, Will.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

13. I'd recommend Father Peter Daly's column of the National Catholic Reporter to anyone who claims...

...Catholic priests are backwards and close minded.

http://ncronline.org/authors/fr-peter-daly

Father Daly is very forward minded and conscious of some of the issues facing the church.

This column in particular as it relates to the Church and the gay community is especially eye-opening and helps counter-act the idea that Catholics, including all of its clergy, are homophobic:

http://ncronline.org/blogs/parish-diary/speaking-about-love-love

(Mind you, this isn't from a former renegade priest who's been kicked out of the church for heresy; Father Daly is an actively preaching Roman Catholic priest from Maryland.)


Speaking about love with love

by Fr. Peter Daly | Dec. 17, 2012

Our meeting was innocuous enough. I had been invited to speak to them as a pastor and priest. I merely related five stories from my own experience of more than 25 years of ministry.

The first story was from 20 years ago, when I worked at CUA in campus ministry. Back then, AIDS was almost certainly fatal. In the popular mind, it was a "gay disease." I organized a group of Catholic University students to walk in the AIDS Walk in D.C. I walked along with them, dressed in my black suit and a clerical collar. A man who claimed to be a Catholic was outraged when he saw us with our CUA banner. He came up and screamed at us, especially at me. Before he walked away he spit on me, to show his to show his contempt at seeing a priest "walking with the fags," as he put it.

My second story was also from that era. About 20 years ago, I was asked to read the names of people who had died of AIDS as part of the NAMES Quilt display on the National Mall in Washington, D.C. We were told just to read the names of the dead and not add anything. But at the end of my list of names I felt the need to pray. So I added the standard Catholic prayer for the dead, "Eternal rest grant unto them O Lord," etc.

When I came down from the stage, an elderly couple approached me. They were crying. They told me that I had read their son's name and prayed just after it. They also told me that their own pastor, a monsignor in upstate New York, had refused to bury their son, who died of AIDS, because he was gay. I was, they said, the only priest who had prayed for their son.

The third story was about an elderly gay couple in my rural southern Maryland parish. I'll call them Robert and Harry. They had been together for more than 40 years, ever since Harry was an architecture student at CUA. When Harry's parents were sick with cancer, Robert retired from his job and took care of them until they died. Then when Harry got sick, Robert nursed him, too. I got to know them when Robert came to the rectory and asked me to come anoint his friend. After Harry's death, Robert showed up to plan the funeral. Harry's family would not come, but they did call and tell me that they did not want any mention that Harry was gay and they did not want Robert mentioned.

At the funeral, I started the homily by thanking Robert, who was the "most important relationship of love and friendship in Harry's life." I quoted the book of Sirach in the Bible: "A faithful friend is a sturdy shelter" (Sirach 6:14).

It would have been inhuman not to mention Harry's best friend and companion.

The fourth story was about a lesbian couple in our parish. Their friendship had saved them both from loneliness and poverty. I only knew one woman. Her partner had died more than a decade before I arrived. But the survivor kept the memory of her friend alive and maintained her friend's grave in the local Methodist cemetery. One evening, I went to anoint the survivor who was sick. Afterward, we spent some time looking at her photo album. She turned and asked me, "Father, do you think my friend is in heaven?"

I responded, "Why wouldn't she be in heaven?"

She said, "Well, Father, she was a Methodist."

I said, "Yes, I think even Methodists can go to heaven."

Finally, I told them about one of my best friends, a Presbyterian minister named Jack. He had been a pastor, a civil rights leader and a hospital chaplain. He lived almost 40 years with his Catholic partner, Paul. Each attended their own church faithfully. When Paul died suddenly in Florida, Jack flew down to claim the body. But at the morgue, he was not allowed to see his partner's body because he was not a blood relative. However, a nephew, who hardly knew his dead uncle, was allowed to claim the body. At the Catholic funeral, my minister friend was not invited to sit with the family or to say anything. He was not even invited to the meal afterward. How cruel.

Those were all true stories. Collectively, they paint a picture of authentic love. Those relationships do not seem "intrinsically disordered."

They also show how the church or the society was more concerned about rendering judgment than showing compassion. How can followers of Jesus be so cruel? Why does cruelty pass for orthodoxy? French essayist Anatole France said, "It is the certainty that they possess the truth that makes men cruel."

At the end of my talk, one of the students asked, "What does the Catholic church have to teach gay people?" I was touched that he would care what we have to say. I thought for a moment.

"The church can teach gay people the same thing we want to teach all people. Love is the measure of our lives. When we speak about love, we also want to speak about commitment, fidelity, respect and dignity in human relationships. Also, everyone is asked to carry a cross at times. Everyone is asked to be chaste at times in their life."

The students in CUAllies have more charity toward the church than the church, which once again this December, refused them recognition, has toward them.

[MNBrewer]

17. "How can followers of Jesus be so cruel?"

That's a question only those who claim to follow Jesus can answer, isn't it?

[HiPointDem]

49. we can ask the same question of nearly every organized human body on earth. for example

"how can democrats be so cruel" as to support the droning of people without trial, plus associated civilians.

[kwassa]

35. A real Christian. At least in my interpretation of the term.

A man who acted in his faith.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

64. Indeed. nt

[cali]

18. Yikes. You had Geohgan as a CCD teacher.

I'm glad you posted this. There are wonderful priests and it's all too easy to forget that.

[mcar]

19. Beautiful

This lapsed Catholic thanks you. Not all priests are bad, not all nuns are good and not all Catholics are deluded idiots as some on DU would have us all believe.

[GoCubsGo]

21. I went to a Jesuit college.

There were lots of other priests just like Fr. Ashe there. I am no longer Catholic (I'm now agnostic), but still have a heap of respect for most Jesuits. I don't like the broad-brushing of them, either. Granted, I have no use for broad-brushing anyone.

[redwitch]

22. Thanks Will.

[mulsh]

23. Father Matt Ashe sounds like another wonderful person who happens to

have been a priest. One of my father's oldest friends, and repeated cross country hitch hiking companions is also a priest. Like Father Ashe Father John has devoted his life in service to others. In fact nearly all of the priests I've encountered have done pretty much the same as Father Ashe, so have most of the nuns I've known.

It's funny but I've never been lectured about the "evils of contraception or homosexuality" by any of the clerics I've come to know. In fact my father-in-law's closest friend, an ex-Jesuit has written extensively on how anti gay attitudes is the antithesis of Christ's teaching, funny that. At most these folk have tried to lead by example "by your works..."

Anyway Father Ashe sounds like a great man to have grown up around and known.

[mgardener]

24. Thank You

Thanks for this beautiful story. And you are so right, there are many good men and women in the catholic church. I have had the pleasure of knowing some of them.

But they were not enough to keep me in the church. They made it harder to leave, but I still decided to leave. Because honestly, if these good, kind, honest priests were in charge, this scandal would not have happened. If women had decision making abilities in the hierarchy of the church, this sex abuse scandal would not have happened.
It happened because good, kind men AND women are not in charge of the church.
And that is why the church has such a bad reputation and why people leave.

[MellowDem]

25. The issue is...

that even priests like Matt Ashe can and are homophobic and misogynist, as they follow their religious beliefs seriously. That's the issue. You can be a humble, overall wonderful nice person that holds onto incredibly backward and harmful ideas because of the belief system. That is the issue, that is the contention, and that is why so many oppose such belief systems. It makes nice people, even wonderful people, believe seriously screwy things. There is no broad brush in condemning the entire belief system and everyone that chooses to associate with that belief system.

So people attack the belief system itself as well as those within the belief system that adhere to it, and they don't exclude the Matt Ashe's of the world from deserved criticism of homophobia and misogyny. Yes, the Pope may have been a friend to the poor in quite a few ways, but he also is, as a matter of course due to his religious beliefs, homophobic and misogynist. It is NOT a broad brush stroke to say that every person that promotes a belief system that is inherently misogynist and homophobic are doing harm. People CAN and DO go help others without such faith-based beliefs.

The real core issue is that faith itself, believing something just because, is a dangerous way to think, and no matter how nice and sweet a human may be, with faith they can be made to take some seriously illogical and harmful actions. That is the flaw in every priest, in every religion, and that is what is ultimately being criticized.

I realize there are priests (and many self-identified believers) who don't adhere to their faith or even believe what their belief system says, and this is worse in some ways, because they are validating a belief system they don't even adhere to, it's intellectually dishonest and hypocritical. The worst of it is the childhood indoctrination that spreads this poisonous way of thinking and keeps it going in the name of "tradition" generation after generation.

[corneliamcgillicutty]

33. So you are dismissing the relevance of faith and goodness? i have faith ergo

I am exposing myself to a "dangerous way to think". I beg to differ. From the time you arise in the morning and interact in the secular world, you rely on your faith in the facets of that world that enable you to flourish. As far as your citing the flaws in priests and religion, I hear the predilection to omniscience which IMHO indicates an inclination to faith in something just because you happen to believe what you espouse to be true.

[MellowDem]

36. "Goodness" has nothing to do with faith...

and no, I don't use faith from the time I arise in the morning. I rely on evidence of various sorts, some good, some poor no doubt. And considering the vast majority of the "faithful" only get that way through childhood indoctrination, it shows why it's a dangerous way to think. Faith lacks any sort of critical thinking. Gullibility is dangerious, and faith is gullibility on steroids. It's why religion gets em young. Young children lack the capacity to critically think. It's a form of child abuse to indoctrinate your child in anything, but with religion it's seen as just fine because of "tradition".

I'm not making a truth claim (unlike religion). I'm stating a preference. I prefer ways of thinking that require logic and evidence rather than faith.

It's why someone who works for 30 years with lepers could also believe that women caused original sin and homosexual marriage is the work of the devil and not bat an eye.

[corneliamcgillicutty]

37. I totally reject your hypothesis

that faith lacks any type of critical thinking. Quite the contrary--critical thought and reason are necessary in one's journey to faith. Faith is constantly tested. I certainly respect your preference for logic and evidence. However, I vehemently disagree with your premise that the vast majority of the faithful are victims of childhood indoctrination. There are many people who have come to their faith as adults as there are those who have chosen a different path. Please do not consider people of faith zombies who follow blindly and weakly in submission.

[MellowDem]

39. The very definition of faith...

is the opposite of critical thinking. If a person believes some unproveable or non-falsifiable belief based on critical thought and reasoning, then the reasoning must be pretty poor, and maybe they are relying on very bad evidence. The Creation Museum is a good example of critical thought and reasoning, of a sort, being used to "prove" a belief. But then, that's not faith.

I don't understand how you can say the vast majority of self-identified believers are not the product of childhood indoctrination. Nearly all of them have the same beliefs they were raised on, down to the denomination. That's not a coincidence. Telling a child that God exists, as though it were a fact, is indoctrination. Churches do full-time indoctrination, except for maybe a couple here and there, like the Unitarians.

Community, social pressure, family tradition, threats of hell, promises of heaven, etc. etc. are the real reasons many people continue to identify as believers, even while not believing much of their own belief system.

It's how people who are professed liberals and have thought about their political values intently can still identify with a belief system that is entirely against many of the values they think about. Because they don't actually think about or believe in the many facets of their own belief system, much less the specific parts they don't believe and that conflict with their values, or the large amount of cognitive dissonance, even while identifying with the belief system, validating it, supporting it, even continuing it through their own children.

It's why I and others are dismayed when Skinner offers congratulations for the appointment of a homophobic, misogynist religious leader. It makes absolutley no logical sense, it's just a traditional break religion gets and represents some cognitive dissonance.

[corneliamcgillicutty]

40. Thank you. Your skepticism has made me more grateful for the gift of faith. Per Augustine, our

hearts are restless until they rest in you. What is of concern is what I perceive to be a concentrated effort by some non-believers on this site to endeavor to intimidate those of faith. If you are a believer you don't belong here! And yes, I base this on evidence--the elitism of the non-believer. With true faith comes humility--to be humble enough to realize that no human being--no matter how erudite--has all the answers.

[MellowDem]

41. Skepticism of religion...

might intimidate religious people because it reveals their insecurities about their beliefs. But criticism and skepticism are not intended to intimidate, they're intended to find the truth, and that's scary for many religious believers. I know, I was once one myself (because I was indoctrinated in it as a child), and I would never question things that didn't make sense because it scared me, and others who did were intimidating, but only because of my own fear, of hell, of there not being a heaven, of dealing with the social consequences of not believing etc. etc., not because of the person themselves.

Believers, especially who subscribe to specific religions, will find their beliefs challenged on DU because it's a discussion forum and those beliefs often contradict liberal ideals. You may find it intimidating, but it's just discussion.

I have no problem with "believers" in general, but many believers subscribe to specific religions that lay out their belief system quite clearly, and those beliefs are in direct contradiction to liberal values many on here hold. I have no problem pointing out this contradiction and the cognitive dissonance it requires.

Non-believers usually don't think humans have all the answers.... so I'm not sure what "elitism" you are talking about. Religious belief, on the other hand, claims to have all the answers, even objective truths. True faith requires no humility. Believing in objective truths based on no evidence is arrogant.

[corneliamcgillicutty]

42. Personally, I am not intimidated. If

I were, I doubt I would engage on this site. Guess I'm too old for that. I very much understand where you have been as far childhood indoctrination. I went to Catholic schools, college, taught in Catholic school, worked in a Catholic University. But I have a big mouth (as I am sure you can tell) and at times would take on the establishment. When I refer to faith, I am not speaking of religion(s) but belief in a higher power. Yes, religion can be the opiate of the masses. I am fortunate to have known wonderful people, mostly nuns, who are quite grounded and are the real strength of Catholicism. I truly wish you every happiness that life can offer. Every day is a gift IMHO.

[HiPointDem]

51. and yet -- religious people have been in the forefront of reform movements all down through

history, the civil rights movement being a prominent recent example. liberation theology = catholics. catholics in the forefront of antiwar protests involving going into military facilities and vandalizing weapons of war.

they credit their understanding of scripture and doctrine with their actions.

the leadership is not coextensive with the membership.

[MellowDem]

62. The same book from which some interpret liberation theology....

says all sorts of nasty things as well. I know religious people can be quite liberal, but again I'll compare it to libertarians. Libertarians agree with liberals on quite a few policy issues, but the reason why is very different, and is glaringly so when it comes to other policies they disagree on. Religious people have been on the forefront of reform movements and the forefront of opposing reform. I mean, there really were few "out" non-religious people for most of history, and that is only changing in the last couple decades.

Religious people who want to help the poor because they believe God told them to do it will tend to do things very differently than if you're doing it because you have empathy for others and think society works best and has the most happiness when there is equal opportunities and less poverty.

So you can have a Pope that wants to help the poor, in his own way, which unfortunately includes lies about condoms, encouraging archaic gender roles and no birth control, etc. etc. Or Mother Teresa, who only wanted to care for the poverty stricken, not get them out of poverty, much less challenge the system that created it. And of course, the Pope will also be against gay marriages or equality for women, because the same book that tells him to help the poor also tells him those other things.

I agree the membership of the Catholic Church believes little that the leadership preaches, but the membership supports and validates the leadership for as long as they are members, there is no way around that.

[HiPointDem]

63. all of which is beside the point i made. the same texts which have been used to repress have

also been used to liberate.

ergo, it's not about the texts particularly.

[RainDog]

43. how has your faith been tested and shored up by reason?

faith and reason are two different concepts entirely, as has been made explicitly clear, imo, by Kierkegaard.

[corneliamcgillicutty]

55. If one is of the opinion that faith

and reason can co-exist, it may be possible to move past the dialogue and work for the common good as described by Chris Stedman in his work "Fatheist: How an Atheist Found Common Ground With the Religious".

[RainDog]

58. I think they co-exist all the time

Maybe I misunderstood the wording of your post and took it to mean that you were saying reason supported faith, rather than co-existed.

[alarimer]

53. Faith and reason are polar opposites

Religion is indoctrination, almost by definition.

All religions discourage questioning, but the Catholic church even discourages reading the bible. I was raised Catholic and that's why I dislike it so much. Simply asking the question, as I did when I was a child, why unbaptized babies went to hell, even though it wasn't their fault, was enough to get me punished. That was just one of the many questions I had.

But the issue is not faith, per se. It's belonging to an institution that considers women as second class citizens who do not have the right to control their own bodies and have no place in the church hierarchy. I don't understand why anyone would put up with it. And many other things besides this.

[OldDem2012]

27. Yes, every bad organization has some good individuals. My argument is not with those....

...individual priests and nuns who actually measured up to the ideals of Christianity and lived by those standards every day.

My argument is with the institution of the Catholic Church that not only failed to stand up to the Nazi Party during WWII, but helped enable the Holocaust. I also have a problem with the institution that stood by and did little or nothing while the right-wing Argentine dictatorship of the 1970s tortured and "dissappeared" tens of thousands of people. Likewise, I have a MAJOR issue with the system that attempted to sweep the recent child abuse scandals under the rug and quietly reassign predator priests hoping no one would notice.

There are many more events throughout history that tested the moral character of the Catholic Church, and unfortunately, they were found wanting. Yes, many here have applied a broad brush when posting comments about the Church, but the Church supplied copious quantities of bright red paint.

Yes, there have been good individual priests and nuns within the Catholic Church, but the institution itself is rotten and is in desperate need of reform from the top down.

[mrs_p]

31. I was practically raised by Jesuits

And I have several Fr. Matt's in my life too.

Fr. Bix for one, who will always remain my hero...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Bichsel,_S.J.

[NaturalHigh]

32. Great Story. Thank you.

Yes, the man sounds like a saint. The world needs more Matt Ashes.

[jerseyjack]

34. Mr. Pitt,

A point of interest is in the second paragraph of your original post. Here, you separated your friend's behavior from that of the most harmful religious orders the world has known. Could he have done good works without associating with that organization?

Your friend was a person I would have liked to have known.

I believe the story of Jesus is nonsense. If the people telling the story left it at, "Here is what we believe. If you want to follow his teachings, this is what you need to do," I would be o.k. with that.

Instead, they want to control your life, my life and everyone else's lives. Then add the emotional hurt they have caused... the deaths they have caused and that is why I will be happy when people wake up, walk away from that corrupt organization and live lives free of guilt.

[Union Scribe]

38. I hope the hosts don't swoop in

and shut this one down, too.

[Posteritatis]

44. It's turning into a Catholic bash, so they'll probably let it stand. (nt)

[Octafish]

46. Thank you for sharing this, Will Pitt.

Father Ashe was a remarkable human being. Those who met him are most fortunate.

The Jesuits whom I have been privileged to know live their lives in accordance with the Gospels: 1.) Love God, 2.) Love one another.

[ananda]

50. I've known some very good priests and nuns along the way.

And I don't hate the church.

I do hate pedophilia and the actions of those who enable it.

I hate sexism and all popes and clerics who are anti-woman.

I hate homophobia and all popes and clerics who are anti-gay.

I hate poverty and all popes and clerics who do not both support
and appreciate those who live and work for the poor.

I hate narrowminded conservatism and capitalist propaganda and
all popes and clerics who support or enable rightwing dictators
and governments.

This includes Pope Francis, btw.

[alarimer]

52. Proves nothing about the evilness of the institution as a whole.

There some Republicans I wouldn't mind having as neighbors or go bowling with. But that doesn't mean that I don't think their whole party is evil and corrupt.

[David Zephyr]

59. As a non-Catholic, I applaud this OP. It's what liberalism is about: Open Mindedness

K&R.

[Humanist_Activist]

61. I'm sure there are good Mormon clergy too, doesn't mean the Church or organization aren't fucked up.

Evil, or perpetrators of hate, violence, criminality, etc.