So, don't make assumptions about people based on your perception of categories they seem to fit.

[sibelian]

I think that's what this whole "door" issue....hinges on.

[niyad]

1. no, it hinges on some people trying their best to trivialize and disrupt discussions about subjects

which make them uncomfortable, or hit too close to home.

[sibelian]

2. ...

OK.

[niyad]

3. nice try, though

[sibelian]

4. at what?

[sibelian]

7. Actually I'm putting you on Ignore.

Never seen a response so tone deaf in my life.

[Bluzmann57]

5. I'm sorry. What are you referring to?

I mean I certainly don't fit some people's idea of a Liberal, but so what? I know the truth and that's all that really matters. Am I missing something here?

[sibelian]

6. It's a reference to number of threads:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2517981

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022520304

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022519524

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022521790

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022522026

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022518142

and these which don't specifically reference doors but pertain to roughly the same subject:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022521790

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022520105

[whatchamacallit]

13. Mine wasn't about doors per se

It was about conflicting or mixed messages.

[patrice]

21. +1

[randome]

8. We always make assumptions and judgments and categorizations.

It's human nature.

But many don't hold so tightly onto their beliefs that they can't be persuaded with reasoned dialog. The more calm and reasoned the dialog, the more minds can likely be turned.

[leeroysphitz]

9. Every reaction I've ever had to the people around me was based, in part, on assumptions.

Simply because I do not know everything about everyone.

[MattBaggins]

10. Your assumption is wrong

Just as your inappropriate titled, but very enlightening and correct in it's own light, post yesterday was.

Have you considered the flip side that Benevolent Sexism is in the category of latent homophia and subconscious racism? It is about the stereotyping of women that often goes hand in hand with it. Would it kill people to stop and wonder if many cultural norms can in fact be nice gestures yet also enforce unfair gender roles? The world will not come apart at the seams if we examine traditions and adapt them as time goes by. Tipping your hat to Ladies is thankfully a dead practice and opening doors for ladies is giving way to opening doors for others. Women and children first and the Captain always goes down with his ship is giving way to "Oh my God women can be captains as well".

I'm glad these old gender role prisons are dying. I am going to continue to listen to the Feminists because as a father of two young girls, I learn a lot about how my culture conditioned ideas impact them. I am glad for the hard asses yesterday who won't apologize for stopping to help women with car troubles. I have to change my resonator pipe today and I will be taking my 10 year old so she won't have to rely on the white knights. That's the age I started to be my dads gopher and if she wants to learn I'm going to encourage her.

[sibelian]

12. Matt....

Your post is very interesting but I cannot see how it constitutes a response to my OP. I'm curious - what do you imagine my thoughst on benevolent sexism are?

You say: "Just as your inappropriate titled, but very enlightening and correct in it's own light, was." - I'm sorry, what are you referring to? The sentence has no major noun.

[MattBaggins]

14. Your post yesterday was a briliiant and excellent

example of your life experience and it was very thoughtful and illuminating piece. I felt however that the title "benevolent homophobia" was inappropriate and the conditions you described were of a real life issue and entirely valid discussion. The problem is what you described was not benevolent and it seems as if your post was meant to be an instructional piece for the Feminists yet did not address the issue they were proposing.

Your post was simultaneously enlightening yet condescending to what at least seems, to have been it's intended audience.

ADDED: Fixed my post. I left an incomplete sentence that made it unclear what the hell I was referring to.

[sibelian]

18. " it seems as if your post was meant to be an instructional piece for the Feminists"

Why do you think it was an instructional piece for feminists?

[MattBaggins]

19. You named it Benevolent Homophobia

The title was a cause for pause given the other threads of the day.

[sibelian]

20. How does that make it an "instructional" piece for feminists?

You've totally lost me.

[MattBaggins]

22. Why did you write the post and choose that title

[sibelian]

23. Because there were numerous threads about benevolent sexism on the board...

???



How does it become "instructional" ?!

[MattBaggins]

24. It gave the appearance

That you were trying to tell the feminists your experience was more valid.

You really didn't think using benevolent in the title would raise questions.?

[HiPointDem]

25. no it didn't. that's just what you read into it from a position of defending your pov from

imaginary attacks.

[sibelian]

31. Matt...

You are so fucked up I have no idea even where to start.

So I'm not going to.

[mythology]

11. I've had some recent experience with that sort of thing in the real world

Most of the women in my life have been somewhat untraditionally feminine if I can say that without sticking my foot too far into my mouth. For example, I can't remember the last time my mom wore makeup and even at 8 months pregnant in Texas summer heat she was hauling around 50 lb bags of horse feed (because dear old dad was too lazy and the horses still had to be fed). The most frequent thing I remember her telling me as a kid was that "you don't need a uterus to do ____" whether it's cooking or doing my own laundry or that "you don't need a penis to do ____" learn how to drive a stick shift or change the oil in your car.

When I was working at a university in tech support, more than one female student came into the office asking us to fix their computers because they were girls and couldn't. Note girl was their word not mine. Additionally the women on my stepdad's side of the family are very traditionally southern women who basically cook and only do traditionally female things while the men are in ranching/rodeo work.

So when I've thought of tough women, I've relied on my personal experience that women who were traditionally feminine were likely to be bit weak and reliant on a guy to do things for them.

But having recently taken up gymnastics, I've been exposed to some very traditionally feminine women who are simply put rather badass. For example, one woman was back in the gym doing one legged work a week after major knee surgery.

There was another woman who is similar who needed her car jumped and not only had jumper cables, but knew exactly how to use them. Based on my personal experience, I wouldn't have expected her to be so self-reliant and prepared. It's been enlightening to realize that there are women who can be traditionally feminine and yet not be reliant on a man or try to flirt to get what they want.

I don't know if my case is exactly benevolent sexism as I never assumed that all women were incapable of doing things like that, but that a subset of women were not conditioned to be so self-reliant. But even if it's not, I've had my expectations challenged and realized that I've had a significant blind spot.

I have seen the reverse of course in terms of guys who say they can't cook or can't keep things clean that sort of thing, but I've never had a guy come to me looking for help with cooking because he's a boy. So I think the issue was more that there was an expectation that I do something for others based on gender roles when I know that women are just as capable of fixing their computer or keeping their car running etc.

[HiPointDem]

27. there's a difference between cooking and changing oil though. you can buy a bag of instant

ramen at the grocery & 'cook,' and that's what a lot of guys (at least in college) do, in my experience. take 1 minute to read directions, tear open package, add water, nuke. voila, 'cooking'. a 6 year old can do it. but can a 6 year old change oil?

changing your own oil is a higher level of skill. physicality, and cost.

[JVS]

16. Woops, wrong thread.

[patrice]

17. People make assumptions about other people based on the categories that they SEEM to fit all

of the time; it's a basic cognitive function. What's important is HOW you do that.

Don't do anything else but that categorization; don't do anything but make assumptions about other people based on the categories that they SEEM to fit: don't refuse to ask an honest respectful question or two; don't prevent them from asking you questions; don't neglect to actively seek additional information from a variety of sources; don't deny that there are other traits that may be more relevant to the INDIVIDUAL than the category that you/I have assigned them to; don't pretend that what you think about them has NOTHING to do with you and may, in fact, have more to do with you than it does with them; don't paralyze your perceptions of them, and hence yourself, by never re-testing YOUR assumptions about them; don't imprison yourself and enslave them by putting m/y/our ideologies, and their respective assumptions and categories, AHEAD of living breathing persons . . . .

In short, EMPIRICAL reality: hypothesis, test, summarize/new hypothesis, new test, new summary/hypothesis, lather, rinse repeat - - -> Freedom.

[LittleBlue]

26. Popcorn time

This is the gift that keeps on giving. Hope this one is as funny as the last.

[sigmasix]

28. enlightening power activated!

There have been many DUers that were unaware of this phenomenon- from the tone and content of some OPs it appears that the rash of benevolent sexism posts have done the opposite of the intentions of some of the more ardent enemies of feminist critique; it has raised awareness and probably was instrumental in involving lots DUers in discussions pertaining to the same principle subject.
I know it has raised my awareness of my own actions of habit in my day-to-day interactions with humans of both sex. I have discussed and explored it with my wife, daughters and others. Isnt this the point of DU?

[sibelian]

29. Sounds good to me!

[Rex]

30. If I hold the door for you

it has nothing to do with you and everything to do with habit.