Men Don't Recognize 'Benevolent' Sexism: Study

[Zorra]

Do most people recognize sexism in their daily lives? And what does it take to get them to shake their sexist beliefs?

In a recent study titled "Seeing the Unseen" psychologists Janet Swim of Pennsylvania State University and Julia Becker of Philipps University Marburg, Germany, set out to answer these questions.

Over the course of three separate, seven-day-long trials, Swim and Becker asked 120 college undergraduates (82 women and 38 men, ranging from 18 to 26 years old, some from the U.S., some from Germany) to record in a journal sexist comments they encountered on a daily basis. According to Swim, she and Becker hoped to determine whether forcing people to pay attention to less obvious forms of sexism could decrease their endorsement of sexist beliefs.
snip---
Researchers found that after recording the sexist incidents they observed, women were more likely to deem the behavior less acceptable. Men, on the other hand, continued to endorse sexist behavior even after becoming more conscious of it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/27/men-dont-recognize-benevolent-sexism_n_885430.html

Shocking. Who knew!?!?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2519524

[RobertEarl]

1. Men are so bad

The baddest thing we do is make war.

Did they ever do a study on that?

[Zorra]

8. No, not bad, it just seems that many people miss the point when it comes to

recognizing unconscious motivations for acts of benevolent sexism.

When someone holds a door open for someone else as a simple act of courtesy, it's not sexist.

When a man reaches a door before a woman, and opens the door for the woman, and let's the woman enter through the door before him

simply because she is a woman

it is an act of benevolent sexism.

I don't believe this can be explained any more simply than this, and you don't have to be a fucking rocket scientist to understand why it is an act of sexism.

Therefore, I'm going to bed, and if people can't figure it out from here, well...there's just some things in this life that some folks will never be able to understand, I suppose.

Doesn't make them bad people.

And yes, I'm quite sure there have been multitudes of studies on why people make war.

[Norrin Radd]

62. When I reach a door before

a woman, man, child, cat, or group of people, I'll hold open the door and let that woman, man, child, cat, or group of friends enter before me.

[tavalon]

34. Men aren't bad, they aren't anything that broad brushed

Though on occasion, I've wondered if clueless is too broad a brush, but honestly it is. It's not surprising to me in the least that the advantaged group (in this study) would be unaware of benevolent sexism.

Living in the northwest these last few years, I felt I was finally away from racism until a black friend of mine started pointing out all the less obvious forms of it all around me. Being a white woman, I would be called the advantaged one in that situation. Since the racism wasn't directed at me and was subtle, I didn't notice it. In the south, it's in your face. My friend, who also lived many years in the south said something surprising - that she actually preferred the "in your face" racism to the subtle kind she gets up here.

[sibelian]

44. Subtle bigotry is harder to relate to.

It's very difficult to form a response. Typically the form of the bigotry requires a response that will look unreasonable or be easily ascribed to some imaginary personality flaw...

[Common Sense Party]

2. "Women and children first" is sexist. Huh.

I'm happily sexist, I guess.

[seabeyond]

3. what if there was a trained, competent woman rescuer and an incapable man?

should the man stay behind getting in the way and the woman sent off when she could save lives?

not really using the resources provided.

[Common Sense Party]

4. Of course in any situation there are exceptions and extenuating circumstances.

That does not alter the general rule. Personally, I'd feel like a real shit if I got on the last lifeboat and looked back at a woman who was about to go down with the ship. But that's just me.

[seabeyond]

9. because her life is worth more than a mans, after all.

i mean. think about what you say. if i looked back and saw ANYONE going down with the ship, i would feel bad.

[Common Sense Party]

10. Okay, I thought about it.

I'd still want her to go first.

Does that make me a bad person?

I don't care.

[seabeyond]

13. well then, lucky her. bummer for you. whatevah. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

15. Wouldn't it just be safer for your emotional wellbeing to simply prevent her from boarding the ship?

Call your elected officials, they should pass a law.

[seabeyond]

28. lol lol lol. ya that. no women on boats, planes, in cars or anywhere there may be danger, evah.

oh lordy. lol

[geek tragedy]

16. No, it doesn't make you a bad person. Not at all.

But, there are two potential assumptions/narratives behind that sentiment:

1). Her life is worth more than yours (a misandrist 'men are expendable' notion); or

2). The strong (men) are supposed to protect the weak (women and children)

[Common Sense Party]

22. Her life might very well be worth more than mine.

Might be worth less.

I dunno.

But at a moment like that, I won't have much time to do the calculating and balance sheet comparisons.

So, I'll just let her on the lifeboat and I'll take my chances treading water.

Plus, I'm probably more buoyant.

[geek tragedy]

25. I'd save my own so my wife wouldn't be a widow.

My wife I'd die for--anyone else, nope.

[seabeyond]

32. ok, how about this. i was a competitive swimmer for two decades. i mean, the highly competitive

working toward the olympics competitive.

my chance of surving so kicks your ass, without me even knowing you.

do i get to stay behind.... and be the one that takes the chance?

i am assuming it is strength that has you taking the chance at treading.

and why the hell are you more bouyant? what are you saying. and really, be careful and maybe a little afraid with this answer. i believe a sports caster got fired for his comment on this.

[Common Sense Party]

33. I'm sorry. Why should I be "afraid" with ANY answer?

[WonderGrunion]

66. Or you could have a heart attack like Shelly Winters in the Poseidon Adventure

[The Straight Story]

7. Well, if there was, I would not hold open the door to help her save people

Don't want to offend anyone or oppress them.

And I would hope she would mention that fact.

See there is thing called having kids and keep the species going that naturally makes one want to protect that ability. Men are more expendable in that regards than women so some might feel the need, inherently (as in being born that way), to protect that which can do so.

Some might think it is a lifestyle though and not a natural function.

Maybe over time people who such can go to a good church or seminar and learn that their natural ways are unnatural and sinful and we can convert them over.

[geek tragedy]

11. It's such a biological imperative that it dates back to . .. 1852

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Birkenhead_(1845)

Cool story, though, bro.

[The Straight Story]

12. The phrase perhaps, but the ideals? (nt)

[geek tragedy]

19. Not translated into reality:

http://www.nek.uu.se/Pdf/wp20128.pdf

[The Straight Story]

29. That is talking about ships

I am speaking more to general and protecting that which most has the ability to propagate the species as being a natural response inherent in a species.

The concept comes from the phrase but the phrase and where it comes from when used in writing does not really mean much.

From your PDF:

The most important argument would be that men are physically stronger than women.
(is that sexist or truth?)

Accordingly, if men try to save themselves, we expect women to have a relative survival disadvantage.
(why?)

As a second hypothesis (H2), we posit that crew members have a survival
disadvantage over passengers. According to maritime conventions, it is the duty of crew
members – and in particular the captain – to conduct a safe evacuation of the ship
(International Maritime Organization, 2004).

-- Which I noted elsewhere, most crew members at the time were men. Their duty was to evacuate others.

[geek tragedy]

31. So, what you're offering is a vague biological thesis with not much

empirical support in a discussion of gender roles?

You gotta do better than that.

[MattBaggins]

35. So basically

If the walking dead apocalypse came about, then we might need white nights.

Of course michonne might disagree

[The Straight Story]

17. Not to mention, in that case, a matter of being practical

Since more men were on ships and employed there they were more in need to keep things going as long as possible.

Today it would be more like passengers first, crew last.

Some things come out of practicality for the time. Some from natural sources. From from pure sexism/racism/etc meant to control others.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

60. Bingo...

How quickly we forget.

[LittleBlue]

18. Same. Using the term "girls" is apparently sexist too.

They were also asked to record subtler actions that many would consider harmless: men calling women "girls,

I use "girls", and my fiancee says "the boys" when referring to me and my friends.

Never imagined taking offense to being identified as one of the "boys" and "girls".

edit: In retrospect, I remember hearing that for older generations this is an issue. It isn't with my generation (20s)

[geek tragedy]

20. Context is everything.

For informal groups of friends, probably okay.

In a professional environment, no way can/should a man get away with referring to colleagues as 'girls.'

[Common Sense Party]

24. How about 'ladies'? nt

[geek tragedy]

26. Unless you're talking about the women's restroom, only in informal settings. nt

[seabeyond]

36. do you call your co workers.... gentlemen? how about the adult word, women? nt

[fizzgig]

30. i don't care if my bestie refers to me as a girl

or when my dad says 'girls' to get me and my sister's attention.

but i don't call grown men boys and it is offensive when grown men refer to grown women as girls, it implies they are adults and women are not.

[sibelian]

40. Mm-hm, it's very context dependent.

It would be interesting to see how the study tried to accomodate that... if it did...

[MattBaggins]

38. A 20 something girl said boys in the break room

Dead silence followed

[tavalon]

39. I'm afraid so as far as the women part goes

Children have less ability so of course they should go first. You could say that women have less ability but in many cases, these days, that just isn't true. Many of us have training and abilities that you may not have and we would need you to get out of our way so........

I'm sad that you are happy to be a benevolent sexist. It isn't as much a step forward from overt sexism as you might think.

I'd say more but I would end up being late for work at a job where I save people's lives.

[Common Sense Party]

42. Life's too short to be sad...

...especially about anonymous posters on the internet.

Have fun at work.

[seabeyond]

43. "but I would end up being late for work at a job where I save people's lives." point. nt

[geek tragedy]

6. Noted without comment

In one example, men who were told to consider women's feelings were less likely to think women overreact when responding negatively to sexist behavior.

[redqueen]

21. ...

When it came to instances of benevolent sexism, though, men's attitudes did not change. According to Swim, men did not consider statements including "a good woman should be put on a pedestal" or "in a disaster, women should be saved before men" to be sexist.

"Women themselves ignore (all types of) sexism, and part of it is a coping mechanism," Swim said. "You want to live your life."

But ignoring sexism has consequences, she said. Often the acceptance of subtler forms of sexism can lead to the acceptance of broader forms of gender discrimination.

[Notafraidtoo]

64. After reading several Topics on sexism today on DU

I am really shocked by some of the what i would consider regressive attitudes about women and sexism in general,I was naive to think one of the most progressive forums on the internet would not harbor so many men and women that have identical views on sexism as any teabagger.

As a male this is a relative new topic for me but thinking long,hard and rationally about the subject it is easy for me to come to the conclusion that social norms of benevolent sexism could easily lead to unconscious negative views of women that can lead to harmful legal and employment outcomes.

I think many members who are upset over this discussion have stereotypes of what a feminist is and refuse to let those ignorant views go,all this talk about being berated about opening a door or pulling out a chair is hyperbole to such a extent that it blows my mind that person could understand democratic views at all.

[MattBaggins]

14. The MRAers got here with their crosses real quick

[theKed]

52. Outpaced, it would seem,

by the HoF Carpentry Squad.

[Apophis]

23. Aw geez.

Trash thread.

[lumberjack_jeff]

27. Good article.

One of the biggest manifestations of benevolent sexism is the fact that 60% of college students are women. Government and private foundations provide far more money to scholarships and programs which promote education for girls. That disproportionate spending has the purpose and effect of extending the margin by which women dominate education.

Because... why?

We marinate in this belief yet recoil in horror when asked to examine it. Even our use of language reflects it; "sexism"= "unfairness against women"

In fact, in fact.. even the framing of the concept of "benevolent sexism" is reflective of the underlying cultural bias. The guy who goes down with the ship isn't a victim of the hostile sexism implied by "women and children first" - the woman who took the spot on the lifeboat is the victim because she was denied the respect accorded to the dead guy.

Benevolent sexism is indistinguishable from hostile sexism against men, and that is the main reason people recoil from it, because men should, above all else, not be whiners.

[geek tragedy]

37. The preponderance of women in college has a corollary that gets overlooked:

the jobs that pay well that don't require college degrees are male-dominated.

Carpenters, plumbing, IT, law enforcement/firefighters, electricians, graphic design, etc. none require the $75,000 of debt college can produce.

What jobs are out there for women who don't complete college? Do they pay anywhere near as well?

So, women have a stronger need for a college education than men.

[opiate69]

45. IT doesn`t require college??

Well.. I suppose if you don`t mind spending your entire career answering the phone all day, helping knucklheads figure out where the "Any" key is for $8 an hour.

[geek tragedy]

46. Where did Bill Gates graduate from college? nt

[opiate69]

47. Caution: Goalposts prone to sudden movements...

Bill Gates is one guy...To suggest that his story is indicative of the IT field now is, frankly, the height of idiocy. As somebody currently going to school for IT, (and the son of a retired programmer), I can assure you that any IT job that pays better than the average McJob requires not only a college degree, but an advanced degree.

[geek tragedy]

48. That's muddying the water.

Sure, a degree never hurts.

But there are IT jobs that don't require them.

[opiate69]

49. ...

[seabeyond]

50. my husband is a tech with a masters. he was doing tech work putting self thru college.

got his degree and decided to stay in tech work. his degree was in engineering and statistics. nothing to do with puters.

the three employees working in his office does not have a degree. not one. it is a pretty large company. in three other cities including dallas. i do not think many have degrees. i will have to ask.

that being said, i do not know a lot of what is required.

[opiate69]

53. Here in the Puget Sound area (Portland too..)

The only non-degree IT gigs are call center support. My brother-in-law in Portland works in the telephony IT division at a large hospital, without a degree but he`s got a bunch of certs, and he`s back in school to get his degree because he cant advance without it. The company I work for is based in Tulsa and Dallas, and our IT guys are all old-school bachelors and up programmers. Of course, our system is pretty complex, so they really need to know their shit lol. If I could stomach the idea of living in Tulsa, I`d try to transfer but... I can`t see leaving Washington State.. too much cool shit I like to do around here.. I don`t think I`ll dig too many clams or catch a bunch of crab in Oklahoma lol.

[seabeyond]

55. so interesting. now, i didnt say they arent getting certs, on regular basis.

they are always having to upgrade knowledge all the fuckin' time.

i thought we were going to move toward dallas, but looking north.

so.... good environment, pretty, healthy economy, good for kids, reasonable price....

what area

eugene, salem, victoria, olympia, anywhere around seattle, bellingham, or spokanne.

what town/city is ideal in that area.

[opiate69]

56. I would say Portland... lots of competition in the Seattle area.. but,

Sounds like your husband has good qualifications, so he might not have much of a problem finding something in Seattle. I live in Olympia, and it`s an awesome liberal town, but outside of government jobs, I don`t know that there`s a whole lot of money to be made in Oly.. I love Portland though.. every time I head down there to see the family I just want to stay lol.

[seabeyond]

57. we have lots of options what to do $ wise

CWe are really looking to relocate somewhere in the north. A place we would want to retire.

I didn't check out Portland. I figured it would be too expensive. Seattle is but there are areas around it.

[opiate69]

58. Really, you cant go wrong with any of the places you listed...

Except maybe Spokane lol.. Played there a bunch of times.. most boring city in the US lol.. now, Coeur D`Alene, Idaho... that`s a little slice of heaven on earth (although big-time Repuke area fgom what I understand.)

[seabeyond]

59. thanks. appreciate. nt

[opiate69]

63. quite welcome!

Lemme know if you do wind up out this way

[kdmorris]

65. Right?

- from a Software Engineer/Analyst of 17 years.

I bet graphic design isn't much different.

[lumberjack_jeff]

67. The ONLY answer to your question is, "Carpenters, plumbing, IT, law enforcement/firefighters..."

If you want the pay that male dominated fields command, your best bet is to go into those fields... prepared to make the comfort and safety compromises that they demand. 92% of workplace fatalities are men.

The phenomenon of credential creep comes from the demand for jobs with non-monetary benefit. There is very little non-monetary benefit in commercial fishing or logging or plumbing, so employers must look for employees with the necessary skills without relying on simply scanning the resume and word searching for "bachelor's degree" - and pay them enough to keep them around.

In other words, there aren't "men's work" and "women's work" - there are desirable jobs and undesirable ones.

There's no good reason that many desirable careers require college except for the need to prequalify the reams of resumes.

[Demo_Chris]

51. Excellent post

[defacto7]

41. I'm not going to take sides in this....

but there is no way you can call this a study. It's the wrong word. It's more of a shared student project.

Rigorous questions from 500 women and 500 men over a relatively short period from equal cross sections of income, education and age status and you "may" have the beginnings of something you could call a study. But 120 college undergraduates 82 women and 38 men, ranging from 18 to 26 years old.... no way. Not even a start.

[sigmasix]

54. this has been on my mind

Ever since this whole benevolent sexism discussion began I've been examining my experiences for evidence of it through-out my daily life. Obviously this sort of sexism exists, just like benevolent racism (if that is a word). We experience benevolent forms of sexism in our movies and other popular mass media- classic literature and beatles love songs. I was raised to believe that a man should never hit a woman and that men that hit women are especially vile cowards. I understand how some would think it ludicrous to call this belief "sexist", but it is. The belief entails an assumption that women are physically weaker than men and unable to protect themselves. This was taught to me by my father. His intention was to make me an honorable man, not a sexist- hence the modifier "benevolent". This is an extreme example, but it is instructive in underlining socio-sexual attitudes involved in the perpetuation of these sorts of sexist acts.
The notion is that even non-overt sexism leads to inequities and the further extension of the life of (ought to be) dead sexist ideologies and social narratives. There is no future for sexist notions and beliefs- early cultural gender ideation includes familial, educational and religious faith indoctrinations that are built upon generations of lay-knowledge and "wisdom". The aim of educating ourselves about the cause of inequities within our systems is to empower the good parts, while dis-empowering the bad. Any form of sexism leads to empowering the agents of destruction and hatred. This is the reason overt sexists have begun denying that they hold sexist beliefs. Not so long ago they were revelling in it- now they wear disguises. We have the tools to recognize the wolves in the flock, but thier puppies seem to be adept at avoiding detection. The DU members that are active in the feminist movement and continue to work towards the opening of minds and hearts to the message of justice have been very important to my evolving understanding and exploration of the infinite nature of mankind's behavior and beliefs.
Thanks

[jonthebru]

61. Is that like where a man says:

"Don't you worry your pretty little head about it"?

[99Forever]

68. Oh goody!

Another "all men are bad, evil, sexist bastards if they don't take on all of the guilt the militant feminists lay on us" thread.

Wonderful circular firing squad stuff.

Thanks.