Hey Catholic Cut-n-Runners: Come Back, Now. DU, Your Country, and World Need You.

[MannyGoldstein]

Sure you had poo launched at you: DU2 had plenty enough sharp elbows, but DU3's Thunderdome gestalt can be utterly crazymaking. I recently had the pleasure of being called a Ratfucker (allowed, 4-2). I'm regularly called all manner of other things: PUMA (ugh), paid Karl Rove shill, unpaid Karl Rove shill, a liar who roots for America's failures, and one who wants nothing more than for America's economy to totally melt down, etc. (In fact, some of those may sound very familiar to one of our cut-n-runners, but I digress).

I hate getting called this shit, but after I mutter a bunch of bad words, I sit back up and think "Ha! Teachable moment!" and I'm back in the cyber-fray. I continue to believe that liberal, dogged, repetition of the plain truth will win.

I'm sure I'm not special at all in this regard. In fact, I know that our cut-n-runners go through the same process - people write awful stuff at them, they mutter, they launch back into the cyber-fray. Until now, of course, when they cut and ran instead.

But for all of my bravado, nobody's gone after my religion yet, so I don't know how that would go. And there's a reason why we call things "religious issues" when they're likely to explode upon critical discussion - because religious discussions have a high potential to piss people off. Everyone gets very excited very easily, sort of like how Simpson and Bowles feel if you're homeless, jobless, penniless, but won't hand them the last morsel of food you were hoping to give your starving baby. Really, really angry.

But here's the thing: this religion stuff is petty stuff compared to the awful, awful stuff that will happen over the next few years. The 99% are starting to fight back, we're drawing a little blood, and the 1% are starting to notice. They're beginning to realize that they can't keep stealing us blind by simply having Rush, Sean and the rest make crazy things up to get us to nod vigorously in agreement when new laws are passed to grab our money. They're going to have to work hard for our last few valuables. And America's Difficult Woman, Senator Warren, wants to start putting banker asses in jail. In jail!

The 1% are getting pissed, and will soon start to rain fire down on our heads, and it will suck. Nitwits keyboarding stupid stuff about Catholicism, Judaism, or Zoroastrianism will be the least of our problems. We'll be trying to figure out how to eat, and how to get people out of jail. Think I'm crazy? I hope you're right but I've studied history and this is a recurring pattern. Large swaths of my family tree stopped growing in Poland in the middle part of the last century when this savagery went down. It can get better after a while if we go FDR, or really awful if we go Hitler. That's up to us to influence, and we need as much influence, from as many people of good character as we can get.

All hands on deck!

So, cut-n-runners: come back. Now. Please. We need you, and you need us. If a bunch of nitwits can spook you this badly, then I fear for what will happen when the cannonballs fly.

"We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."
- Dr. Benjamin Franklin

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. And some of us have taken the nitwits to task

Something a whole swath of the family tree going dark as well...so I take bigotry of any stripe as the true deadly virus it is. And the Hitler route, you went Godwin on us on the OP no less...starts with bigoted utterances.

You could say I got a very low tolerance for that.

[MannyGoldstein]

7. And done a fine job of it, Nadin.

I eat Godwin for breakfast.

[pipoman]

2. What? We don't want to become

a quaint little group of true believers? (the Democratic party that is)

[jsr]

3. No kidding.

[RobertEarl]

4. You dreamer you!

"... back in the cyber-fray. I continue to believe that liberal, dogged, repetition of the plain truth will win. "

You may say I am a dreamer
but I'm not the only one.

Some day you'll join us
and the world can live as one.

[Phillip McCleod]

5. truly this coronation of a new pope has us all a bit on edge it would seem.

the provocative statements have increased in number at the same time that many catholics are in a state of heightened awareness of their religion. it's a recipe for confrontation.

that's not always a bad thing. i think the left needs to rethink it's historical relationship with the rcc until the church gets on board with us. it been lopsided for wayyyy too long.

[MannyGoldstein]

6. I'd have thought people would be more hopeful

Seems like Bergoglio might have been the most progressive of the bunch (low bar, I know). But the poverty issue is a huge one. I choose to be guardedly optimistic.

[Apophis]

9. Oh. He helps the poor. He's a great man.

Never mind that he is homophobic and anti-women's rights.

Great man

[MannyGoldstein]

10. I said he might be the best of the bunch

Which would be much better than the worst of the bunch.

And because he's a Jesuit, there's some hope that he wakes up one day and has an epiphany on women and homosexuals. Not likely, but somewhat possible.

[Apophis]

12. I wish I was as optimistic as you are.

Seriously.

[Skittles]

15. we have to RESPECT that, Apophis

it's tradition!!!

[Phillip McCleod]

13. i think that's moving the bar just a little *too* low for some

to accept without calling 'limbo' .. dogmatic pun intended.

[AtheistCrusader]

25. It's his statements, pre-employment as pope, about things like same sex marriage.

Hot button issue. I think some people were hopeful but this guy had some, frankly, bigoted shit printed proudly on his shirt where everyone could see it before he even got into the starting blocks.

It's a bummer, and this is an example of an issue where people on our side will issue no quarter. It's a hard fought social war. I view this as a setback, and it influences nearly a quarter of Americans.

More than that, really. I have some evangelicals on my friends list on facespace, and they are practically fawning over the guy, even though he's a catholic. Fifty years ago, they wouldn't have pissed on his smoking ashes, and here they are, like Americans fawning over the next British Royal Wedding, saying how wonderful he is, and how blessedly conservative and all that shit.

I think 'dissapointment' is a understatement.

[Morning Dew]

8. One thing I don't get.

If their church tells them that they should fear for their souls for supporting

* birth control

* gay rights or marriage equality

* abortion rights

* politicians who support the above

that's one thing. If, however, other DUers tell them that position by the church is messed up, they get offended and rush to defend the institution with the screwed up position.

[BainsBane]

11. You don't get much

and obviously haven't made an effort to understand what is going on.

I'd like to know if you can find one Catholic who has heard their parish priest say any of what you listed above.

[MannyGoldstein]

14. Why?

[Apophis]

18. A priest wrote an editorial against those things three weeks ago.

In an Op/Ed in my local paper.

[BainsBane]

22. and the hierarchy is very vocal about such things

but most local priests in this country don't discuss them. I went to Catholic school and had sex education class in which condoms were passed around. My grandmother, who dutifully want to mass every week, said her parish priest told her birth control was a matter of one's own conscience.

Prism, a gay DUer, grew up in the Catholic church and says he never recalls his parish priest every talking about homosexuality.

My eighth grade teacher, Sister Jackie Slater, was an activist for gay rights in the 1970s and 80s, when people here were still using homophobic slurs as a matter of course.

My point is the everyday experience of being a Catholic is often very different from what one hears from the church hierarchy in the media.

[AtheistCrusader]

30. I will try and believe that statement, but it's tough to do so.

If I may ask, what state, or perhaps, if you are willing to share it, what major city was that in/near?

I know several Catholics at work. They would fucking DETONATE if what you just described happened in their churches, and they are here, in super-solid-blue King County/Seattle area.

I mean, you'd be cleaning them off the walls with a mop. One of them just got a knighthood into the 'Knights of Columbus'. You know, the 'fine folks' that got 'In God We Trust' injected into our paper currency in '57.

SOME of them are most certainly talking about this stuff, and MOST CERTAINLY do the 'damnation' thing when.. I mean, my mom's neighbors had 5 kids, and 'went to their priest to see what they could do to not have another'. Answer? Nothing. Have more 'if it's god's will', despite the fact they have reproduced themselves directly into poverty.

There may be some 'progressive' catholic churches out there... But by no means all of them.
I DO wish I had a clearer picture of which is which and how many on each side, I only have anecdotal experience. All the ones I know of here in the Puget Sound basin, by way of knowing the people that attend them, do not fit within your description.

[BainsBane]

34. Minneapolis

I don't appreciate insinuations that I am lying. The nun's name was Sister Jackie Slater. The School I went to is St. Stephens. They still run a free store and other services for the poor. My grandmother's church was Immaculate Heart of Mary on Summit and Snelling. Do you want my social security number too?

This is the thread Prism posted his experiences in. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022504977

[AtheistCrusader]

35. I would like to know more about whether that is a typical experience.

It's not that I think you're lying, or would say you are, because I don't know, maybe you had a very different experience. That region might be different, or that church might be different.

It's just so mind-bogglingly shocking, based on what I know about the catholic churches around here, again, by way of people I know, neighbors, co-workers, etc.

That or the people I know are all the biggest bullshitters ever, putting up a fake front for the church or something. Or, again, perhaps a regional difference.

[BainsBane]

36. a few things to consider

Parishes vary a great deal. The church has become more conservative during the past two papacies through appointments to bishoprics. That has made the church more conservative on cultural issues but it has always been committed to social justice and to the left of the Democratic party on economic/social issues. But many local parish priests remain liberal, as our the majority of Catholic parishioners. Some 60% support gay marriage according to the Human Rights campaign.

I can tell by your response you know nothing of the history of Catholics and Liberation Theologians in particular to right-wing military governments in Latin America funded with our tax dollars. There are mass graves with thousands of Catholics, including nuns, priests, and thousands of Indians, throughout Latin American and especially in Central America (see El Mozote in El Salvador). Archbishop Oscar Romero was assassinated while giving mass in El Salvador. Jesuit priests and nuns were killed in the same period, all by military governments backed by the US and funded with our tax dollars.

Obviously I know nothing about what goes on in churches in Seattle. It likely has to do with whoever the bishop or archbishop of that diocese is and he may be heavy handed in imposing orthodoxy, which can only mean declining attendance. Americans have always been what are called "Cafeteria Catholics," picking and choosing what they want to believe. There actually is a basis in Catholic teachings for such an approach, as Andrew Sullivan wrote about this weekend. http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/

[Bluenorthwest]

49. But we must also consider this story from Minnesota:

"In a letter to his parishioners, Father Gary LaMoine, a priest of the Diocese of Crookston (Minnesota), discussed news reports that Lennon Cihak, a 17-year-old in his parish, was “denied” the Sacrament of Confirmation because of his support for same-sex marriage.

The teen, said Father LaMoine, was one of a few who chose not to be confirmed because of support for same-sex marriage.

Father LaMoine added that even if the teen had not chosen to withdraw from the Confirmation program, he could not be confirmed unless he accepted Catholic teaching on marriage."

he could not be confirmed unless he accepted Catholic teaching on marriage. And there you have it.
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=16286

I'll add on the positive side that while the Church officially fought against equality tooth and nail there, many ex-priests and a few current ones dissented from that opposition most eloquently.

Any organization as large as RCC has many facets. Sticking to only the more sparkling facets is a form of editorial forming or framing of the facts. There is absolutely no reason on Earth not to include the good, the bad, the very ugly, the entire spectrum. No reason at all to deny parts of the truth in order to promote other parts of the truth. The truth, it is a whole thing.

[sarisataka]

38. Must be something about Minnesota Catholics

We had simlar sex ed in elementary back in the 70s when the word sex was banned in public schools. Religion class in HS taught us the doctrines and that they are interpretations. We are allowed to have our own interpretation and it is no sin if we truly believe we are right.I just wait for the leaders to come to my interpretations...

[Niceguy1]

37. Raised both of my

Daughters in the RCC and both went to the parish elementary and middle school. Never once did I hear the hateful things people here say are common, either. No have any children been abused.

And a great deal of aid is given to the poor.

Side note, did you know more hati aid has been given by religious organizations than government agencies? Most of the promises made by the governments were never kept

[Morning Dew]

20. Here's one instance from before the election

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-10-31/news/chi-peoria-bishop-politicians-who-support-abortion-rights-reject-jesus-20121031_1_peoria-bishop-catholic-politicians-religious-freedom

Joining the chorus of Roman Catholic clergy in Illinois criticizing President Barack Obama before next week’s election, Peoria Bishop Daniel Jenky ordered priests to read a letter to parishioners on Sunday before the presidential election, explaining that politicians who support abortion rights also reject Jesus.

“By virtue of your vow of obedience to me as your Bishop, I require that this letter be personally read by each celebrating priest at each Weekend Mass,” Jenky wrote in a letter circulated to clergy in the Catholic Diocese of Peoria.



In the letter, Jenky cautions parishioners that Obama and a majority of U.S. senators will not reconsider the mandate that would require employers, including religious groups, to provide free birth control coverage in their health care plans. “This assault upon our religious freedom is simply without precedent in the American political and legal system,” Jenky wrote.

“Today, Catholic politicians, bureaucrats, and their electoral supporters who callously enable the destruction of innocent human life in the womb also thereby reject Jesus as their Lord,” Jenky added. “They are objectively guilty of grave sin.”

[BainsBane]

23. I recall hearing about that

I wonder how many actually read it? I wonder if anyone here actually heard that letter?

[AtheistCrusader]

26. Sure I know several.

Unfortunately, you've asked for data that is against DU's rules to post.

[BainsBane]

29. How so?

[AtheistCrusader]

33. I can't give you their names.

"Respect people's privacy.
Do not post or link to any private/personal information about any person, even if it is publicly available elsewhere on the Internet."

These are people that are not DU members, and we can't even out other DU members.

[MannyGoldstein]

16. Why?

[mindwalker_i]

17. All hands on dick?

Oh wait, sorry.

[MannyGoldstein]

19. Why?

[mindwalker_i]

21. Sorry, been drinking

I do that on Sumndays

No offense intended.

[AtheistCrusader]

32. Funny story in a video game called 'EvE-Online'.

There was a feature in the game when you warped your ship through a gate, or to a cyno field in a neighboring star system called 'Jump To'.

In the Russian localized version of the game, the translation of in-game options was so bad, that same 'Jump To' came out 'Jump on Dick', essentially.

Hilarity ensued.

[Dragonfli]

24. Thanks Manny, we need all the liberal hands on deck, The problem appears to be

That some hateful people confuse people raised as Catholic (or insert whatever here) with arguably corrupt upper echelon wolves that always appear at the top of large institutions.

Some of the most liberal and generous people I know are being blamed for things they were not consulted on, nor do they approve, but they spend there time helping the poor rather than rub elbows over Vatican policies they have no part of.

The hateful never consider organizations such as "Catholic Charities" and the work they do at least where I live in Buffalo. They help those that the safety net spits out like a bad taste and work with and on behalf of people that would now be homeless without such help. They also make sure that those that need psychiatric help get access to it. They provide counseling to people reaching their end that would likely commit suicide if not helped in time. They provide food and hope to those that the great liberals of suburbia give only pity and condescension to. They do this without proselytizing if some mistakenly believe that to be the case.

Liberal Catholics believe in works as well as faith while most evangelicals feel that works matter not at all, only grace, and it shows in their Calvinistic attitude towards the poor and this odd belief that the wealthy are blessed by God and are his favorites, but even they have those that are liberal and try to help.

I'm a goddamn witch and even I can see that nuns on a bus and the volunteers that give their time and money to help the poor are NOT THE FUCKING SAME as the Opus Dei freaks, Catholics where I grew up at least, are very liberal and the first to offer help to those that need it.

I have many issues with the church, many very serious issues, but not with the Catholics I know, The hatred towards my friendliest neighbors is really starting to piss me off.

These people need to get to know their neighbors rather than just assume the authority to judge them.

edited to add two things
1. how much can a guy like ME get paid by rove to promote liberal policy? (I mean if I am going to push the FDR agenda anyway, I wouldn't mind some coin)

2. I have heard that once you go rat you never go back, is the species Rattus Norvegicus really that good in bed? I have wanted to try bestiality and just want to know which beasts are hot and which are not
end edit

[liberal_at_heart]

27. I loved the nuns on the bus tour. Those are some seriously cool nuns!

[ButterflyBlood]

31. Confuse people raised as Catholic? WTF?

I was raised Catholic and I don't identify as such anymore, haven't for well over a decade (a long time considering I'm still quite young, not even 30), and frankly am not offended in the slightest by the Church bashing that's been going on. They've asked for it with the hatred they promote and bigotry they sow. Exactly the reason why I am not part of it today. No one is trashing or condemning all people raised Catholic, just those that continue to support that organization.

[Dragonfli]

40. Yeah those evil nuns on their busses and catholic charities that feed the poor suck!

if you feed them they are just encouraged to be seen in public

Who the hell would want to be associated with those helping poor people that smell and clutter our doorways. All these are part of the institution as well but it's more fun to hate em all because they go to church and support charities through church. To be Catholic is to support the organization by praying, giving money to the poor and observing certain rituals. I bet you like muslims but not any that go to mosque to pray.

preach it brother there is no hate as lovely as self hate.
You are a classic example of confusing all Catholics with those that are in the Vatican.

Don't worry, a witch like myself will step up for you and help the good guys get the work done helping the poor at the center while you throw a tantrum because you can't separate the many good from the few bad that fester at the top.

You should write nasty letters to the bus nuns, that should give a a good feeling of striking out against the evil that you perceive to be in a web they weave.

Shit, if you hate Catholics, you may get all burn the witch on someone like me, if nuns are to be hated, I must be the devil himself, I'd be scared shitless if I thought you could take me out.

Hating never helps, if you think it does seek help before your bottled up hatred causes harm to others

[RainDog]

41. what the fuck do you call what you're doing?

turning the other cheek?

[Dragonfli]

43. You lost me kiddo, did you bother to read the posts at all?

Or do you just fancy a fight with a guy that won't hate on all Catholics that don't denounce their faith and wave their fists at their parish?

Read slowly, very carefully and you may glean the meaning of my first post in this sordid little sub-thread.

Witches only turn a cheek if he or she would like a little spank on both sides, so your reference to me only brings back fond memories of a playful and promiscuous youth.

Try baiting me some other way, I am sure the attempt will amuse me.

[MannyGoldstein]

47. Nuns on the bus. That's the real Catholic church, I think.

I've started to suspect over the last few years that we need to turn over all of our institutions to women. Men were handy back when clubbing dinner to death was de rigueur, but today's world calls for more heart and more finesse. Put the Nuns in charge, in rolling Vaticans across the globe.

As to your questions, Mr. Rove has certainly had his beady little eyes on your good works, and you may be hearing something soon. Unfortunately, the purse is a little tight right now since we need as many high-priced consultants as we can find to figure out how to deal with Professor Warren. She'll be the death of us.

I cannot answer your rat question while sober. Probably not after moderate drink, either, but I'll consider it as the opportunity presents.

[HiPointDem]

28. kr

[pmorlan1]

39. Intolerance

In my view, those Catholics who don't support the Church view on abortion, gay rights, etc. stay with their Church to fight from within like the nuns have been doing. It's also kind of like those of us who stay in the Democratic Party in order to fight for the soul of the Party from within. I don't agree with everything the Party supports and when I don't I say so. I've been jumped on before for not supporting President Obama's continuation of the Bush era "war on terror" policies.

I'm not Catholic but I sure hope any Catholics who have left this forum because of comments directed at them will reconsider and come back. All of us are needed to fight intolerance whenever it rears it's ugly head.

[Demo_Chris]

44. Fighting from within?

You think they hand out ballots with the Holy Cracker to discover what the folks filling the collection plate want? There is no fighting from within. You either support the organization or you do not.

[Egalitarian Thug]

42. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer is good advice, but it is predicated on the

assumption that you are clever enough to know that your enemies are your enemies and to not confuse them with your friends.

BTW, just what is your religion, Comrade?

[MannyGoldstein]

45. Jewish, which is to say agnostic with side orders of argument and pastrami.

But I like all religions - smoking pocketbooks, meditation, Tefillin, love 'em all. When people's hearts are in the right place, religion can be a powerful force for good. Although when people's hearts are lost, religion can be a mighty force for mischief.

[Egalitarian Thug]

50. LOL! Thanks Manny.

It's kind of funny, I dislike religions for the same reason.

[reformist2]

46. Don't worry, I'm not cutting and running... I am getting sharper elbows, though!

Intolerant atheists, look out!

[MannyGoldstein]

48. Sharp and strong!

You'll need 'em!

[just1voice]

51. Let that "drunken" ad-hom attack artist go, please

The last thread I read with that bully in it, they had personally insulted at least 10 posters in a row. As for people insulted by others whom point out criminal cover-ups and a system of corruption, I say let those supporters of corruption go too.

There's a clear and easily made distinction between the tenants of a religion and the corrupt practices of organized religious institutions. Anyone who's so emotionally charged via propaganda that can't distinguish between the two is not worth reading either.

As always, I'm sure I'll be completely ignored by the masses of propaganda responding robots but I said what a lot of people think anyway.

[ProSense]

52. Pfft!

I find the impersonation of Pam Geller to be interesting. She's the kook who thinks all Islam and every Muslim is responsible for beheadings and jihadism.

I'm not Catholic, but it's fascinating that the selection of a new Pope unleashed the kind of reaction being displayed. I mean, what the hell changed about people here? Are they different from who they were two weeks ago?

Should all Baptist be persecuted for the Westboro Baptist Church? I know, it's not the best example, but the reactions still amount to bizarre crap.

[muriel_volestrangler]

53. I think it's because the media has just had wall-to-wall "the pope is important" coverage

and people here have many, many reasons to despise him, and pretty much every cardinal, archbishop and bishop. And the fairly typical reaction of Catholics here has been to downplay all his bad points and spin anything positive they can about him. So, unsurprisingly, there's been a backlash against this apparent acceptance of the new pope.

If the reaction by DU Catholics had been to start with "this is why we're not going to listen to this guy selected by a bunch of other guys who shouldn't be in charge of a whelk stall, let alone our religion", things might not be so fractious right now.