There is a war on abortion rights underway and we're fighting over feminist theory?

[Comrade Grumpy]

I can see multiple thread with hundreds if not thousands of posts about benevolent sexism, opening doors, and feminist theory.

I con't see any about the ongoing attack on abortion rights.

It's like we're off in the corner sniping at each other, while real rights for real women are being scuttled.

[99Forever]

1. Precisely.

Circular firing squads, a longstanding liberal/progressive tradition.

[HappyMe]

2. I agree.

[Still Sensible]

3. Indeed n/t

[Apophis]

4. I trashed 21 threads on benevolent sexism this weekend.

I'm all for discussing things, but did we need 21 threads on the the subject?

[Lionessa]

5. Makes one wonder who the real trolls are...

Distraction is a troll art, is it not?

[patrice]

45. Always! a good question, especially when it honestly includes one's self, which includes me too.

Just thinking here about being really strong and OPEN at the same time, as much as possible anyway, for the sake, not only of personal strength building (since strength cannot grow in an artificially aseptic hot-house), but also for wholeness/completeness and honesty too.

[ismnotwasm]

6. Well I can multitask

And I'm a real woman. And we are very, very, very aware our basic human reproductive rights are being threatened. And we fighting tooth and nail. You don't even know me.

[Comrade Grumpy]

14. You're right. All I know of you is what I see on this board.

Carry on with the good fight.

[boston bean]

7. Hear hear all women whose reproductive rights are under attack,

you are fighting for your rights in all the wrong ways!

Follow the men, and they shall lead you to salvation!

Stop focusing on the cultural ills that make it possible for such attacks to have success!

You little womens are doing it all wrong.

Comrade Grumpy knows best!

LOL

[Scout]

11. + a gazillion n/t

[Zorra]

29. oh, yes, and plus a hearty billion gazillion more. nt

[Comrade Grumpy]

16. A bit of an exaggeration, don't you think?

I make no claim to "know best," but I do have an opinion.

And you are very angry and combative.

I'm sure the women of Mississippi and North Dakota are very heartened that we are busy dissecting the intricacies of benevolent sexism as their rights are being taken away.

[boston bean]

19. I'm sure they understood what the cultural issues were

and they weren't ignoring them. Because it is all part of the same problem.

You wrote this to be dismissive of it. You wrote this to foster less conversation and less understanding of the reasons why people feel they can get away with treating women like this..

Hell, no I aint listening to you.

[olddots]

32. i wish you knew who your friends are

in which you reply --you can never be one -in which I reply NOBODY WINS

[boston bean]

52. Friends don't do what was done here in this OP.

I felt pretty damn alienated.

[RC]

53. The bill in North Dakota was vetoed by the governor.

The last I heard, the veto still stands.

[redqueen]

21. "Stop focusing on the cultural ills"

That does seem to be the message.

Laws? Sure.
Rape? Well, maybe. Isolated incidents, yes.
Rape culture? You're pushing it now.
Cultural issues which enable the above? SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP!

[HiPointDem]

28. i'm a woman. i agree with grumpy.

[boston bean]

49. I'm a woman too.

[HiPointDem]

55. and? the point is, you pretend to speak for all women, but you don't.

[boston bean]

57. And your point was?

to say you don't speak for all women.

Good. We're in agreement, you don't speak for me.

[HiPointDem]

58. Unlike you, I never claimed to.

[boston bean]

59. I never claimed to either. That was of your own making.

I speak for myself on DU.

[Sheldon Cooper]

60. Could you provide a link to the exact post wherein boston bean

claimed to speak for all women? Thank you.

[joeglow3]

63. This post CLEARLY implied only a man would "lead" women in this direction

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2529429

[boston bean]

65. Yes, that is what I implied! not!

HA LOL

Thanks for the laughs.

[joeglow3]

68. Then please explain what you meant by this

You know, for those of us unintelligent people who just make you laugh:

"Hear hear all women whose reproductive rights are under attack,"

-Appears to be speaking to "all women"

"you are fighting for your rights in all the wrong ways!"

-Pretty obvious it is mocking the lead post

"Follow the men, and they shall lead you to salvation!"

-Now, you are saying, in a sarcastic tone, that following men is the answer.

I am not the only person who read your post that way. I am sure you think it is because we all need to bow before your intellectual superiority. However, appease us mouth breathers and clarify it, please.

[boston bean]

70. It was in response to a male telling women what they should do.

You don't see the irony here, do you?

[HiPointDem]

74. no. i don't see any irony at all, just a stale debate tactic.

[boston bean]

76. And yours wasn't?

[HiPointDem]

92. the stale debate tactic i refer to is the claim that because one is not a member of a certain

class, one has no right or authority to speak, nor is there any reason to listen to such persons.

which pretty much shuts down any discussion with anyone who is not 100% in line with you.

i didn't make use of any such tactic.

[pacalo]

97. He didn't "tell you what to do" -- he called it like he saw it & you disagreed with it.

Discussing the war on abortion rights isn't worth your time?

[Sheldon Cooper]

71. Oh. So an implication (in your opinion) is a clear declaration?

Got it.

[joeglow3]

79. Yes. Actual words only make up a percentage of what one communicates

I would expect Sheldon Cooper to know that.

[Sheldon Cooper]

80. Which would be fine, if we were not on the internet.

But on the internet, words are pretty much all we have, aren't they? Bazinga.

[HangOnKids]

61. I'm Really Curious HiPoint Not Snark Just A Question

Are you retired? You seem to have a ton of posts in a short time. I have no idea how something like that is done, as a working woman it would be impossible for me.

[joeglow3]

62. Are you shitting me?

This is the shit DU has devolved into? She has to justify her posting habits?

[HiPointDem]

67. i'm semi-retired. No, i don't get paid to post. and no, I'm not at work when posting.

I rarely see any of the brave defenders of women's right to be free from male door-opening in threads about political-economic issues affecting women save one: equal pay, which imo is misrepresented in such discourse.

[HangOnKids]

69. Who Said Anything About Being Paid To Post? Or Posting At Work?

I figured you were retired or worked part time from home. The other things you responded to were not in my query. Not sure why you felt compelled to include that information.

[HiPointDem]

75. i did not feel compelled. it is a common accusation made about people who post a lot. just

to forestall the implication of your question.

otherwise, what business of yours, what possible interest could you have in whether i'm retired or not?

[HangOnKids]

77. I asked you a question and I explained why

I never accused you of anything. Now, goodbye, I do not wish to have a conversation with you. If you reply to me do not except a response.

[HiPointDem]

78. You don't want to have a conversation with me, you just want to know my personal business.

funny.

[HangOnKids]

81. One more time, I asked a question if you thought it was personal

you could have ignored it or told me it wasn't any of my business. You answered and then I replied back. I now know don't care for your style and I do not wish to continue talking with you. This was the first encounter I have had with you and it is NOW OVER. Good Day!

[HiPointDem]

82. i don't care for your style either. and you didn't have to respond to my comment. nor do you

have any power to dictate how i respond to yours, or for how long.

[pacalo]

95. I had been wondering the same about some feminists but thought it was too rude

to point out or ask about.

One had joined DU around the same time as I & her post count is 75% higher than mine; you might ask the feminists how this is done.

[MoclipsHumptulips]

48. Thank You boston bean

SPOT ON!!!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

51. this

[seabeyond]

85. yup. and grumpy would be one that has continually dismissed womens concerns, but it seems, abortion

rights.

wow.

isnt it?

just a wow.

[pacalo]

96. *All* women? You don't speak for me. Comrade Grumpy's OP is accurate.

[Hekate]

8. Big KnR, Comrade

We do tend to wander off, don't we?

[demmiblue]

9. A) A good many of those threads/posts were created by men to poke and prod DU feminists.

B) Start one.

C) Yet another one to the trash bin.

[seabeyond]

86. yes. the majority were started by men to diss feminists. just like this is started by a man, to

diss feminist.

consistent.

and

obvious.

[redqueen]

10. Serious discussion of feminism is helpful, but yeah the people pretending it's a joke

are definitely not helping.

[boston bean]

12. True or ones like this that make it seem

a waste of time to discuss feminist theory, are not helpful.

It was a slight and a diss of feminism.

[redqueen]

15. Yep. It's a rather stupid insinuation.

If feminists discuss contentious issues, they are preventing people from fighting other battles?

Yeah, stupid. But it isn't the first time we've seen the 'more important things' tactic, and you know it won't be the last.

[cali]

13. This is kinda specious. I've posted several threads recently on abortion

I post ops on the subject regularly. Have for years. Just because people are talking about feminism at the moment doesn't mean that attention isn't being paid to abortion rights.

DU often goes thru paroxysms over one issue or another. They're like sudden, brief storms.

[Comrade Grumpy]

17. Glad to hear it. I've seen a handful of abortion posts recently.

But they don't seem to excite anything like the interest in fighting over theoretical feminism.

[gollygee]

25. Well

We don't argue about stuff when we all agree.

[Control-Z]

90. +1000

And it sometimes feels like it has all been said. At least for me. I have the most profound experience with regard to abortion and yet seldom post more than agreement with an OP.

I wish I could find a way to offer more.

[seabeyond]

88. was grumpy in any of those threads fighting the good fight? cause he is concerned. directing

us where to put our energy.

[cali]

98. nope.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022469067

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022469710

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022461030

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022237000

these are not all of the threads I've posted recently on the subject, but I got tired of looking them up.

[seabeyond]

99. ha. one did not even get one reply. you do good cali.

good info and to keep informed. but, from my perspective it changing laws creating war on women is only successful because of something much deeper. i want to get to the point in society where we are healthy, not treat the cancer that is already there.

ALL of what we are talking about is allowing the success of the rw push against women.

yet, that push that is allowed because of an ever growing disrespect toward women also is what woke up a hell of a lot of women across the nation.

[treestar]

18. People discuss ideas all the time.

Are you saying that is is useless?

[sibelian]

20. You have a point.

Perhaps I should just have walked away from them. I do think there ought to be space for both sets of issues... I think some of the discussion in some of those threads was actually really worthwhile.

I do sometimes think DU is tremendously reactive, I'm sure the next time abortion turns up as part of the news cycle that'll be the subject that fills the board but it would be much better, of course, if people actively considered their positions carefully and made constructive OPs outwith the news cycle on such subjects.

There's a definite pattern to posting here, there are news spikes which cause a couple of main threads and then these main threads trickle off into a little family of smaller threads and then, without any further heat added to the issue from "outside" the subject just disappears from the main board again until next time. I really wish it wasn't that way but I can't think of anything to do about it.

It's also worth bearing in mind that a lot of the "rallying" threads have to be incredibly direct and lacking in fine detail to get enough posters to keep it up on GD, which, given that they are issue-publicising mechanisms, can a bit of a problem. It's very difficult to rally anyone around anything that requires the slightest subtlety. That's true IRL also, natch.

And it's also worth bearing in mind that the posts that are always going to get the most responses and therfore the most views on the front page are always going to be the ones where the OP pertains to some item over which there is disagreement or a lack of clarity or unity among Democrats. There's never going to be a way round that either.

Not that any of the above was unknown to you, I'm sure.

[patrice]

36. Wonderful! post.

[sibelian]

42. Well, thank you!

[olddots]

50. here--here ! thank you for saying that so eloquently

Its as if we have to come up with sensationalistic headlines like the gossip rags.

[sibelian]

72. *Very* much so, it's so irritating.

Screeds and screeds of attention grabbing...

[LadyHawkAZ]

22. There's pretty near universal agreement here about reproductive rights

thus, the threads aren't controversial and don't generate as much traffic.

Gender theories wander all over the map from the brilliantly relevant to the ridiculous, are not universally agreed on, are highly controversial and create more heavily trafficked threads.

I doubt this reflects what people are working on in real life.

[redqueen]

84. +1

[RainDog]

23. not one reply or rec on this thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022529251

except for the one I left - that has to do about international human rights for women.

neither side.

[LeftInTX]

24. Kick, kick, kick

I read one "door" thread and trashed the rest. I have no idea how many door threads I trashed, but they kept popping up.

It might be human nature to discuss door opening because it is something everyone does in their daily lives. We can all choose our etiquette on a daily basis.

However, we don't have as much control over what is going on with abortion. It is in the hands the of Repukes.

The abortion rights needs to be discussed. We need to advocate for them which is more complicated than opening or not opening doors.

[freshwest]

26. I pay more attention to rape, abortion, birth control and violence. Easier to enlighten with those.

[patrice]

31. That's a very helpful tactical suggestion. nt

[freshwest]

33. I find discussions of Marxist theory the same. It's true, but eyes glaze over. Not for everyone.

[HiPointDem]

56. where are these discussions of marxist theory?

[HiPointDem]

27. +100. Not to mention the racheting down of social protections, wages and benefits.

Bankrupt 'feminism'.

[patrice]

30. Thank you.

[gollygee]

34. I don't have to have permission from anyone about what to post about

Anyway, most of the posts about that feminist theory were junior high antics and strawmen by people who don't like that feminist theory.

But we are able to discuss a number of issues at DU, and always have, and always will continue to. I don't see people complaining when we talk about other issues that people might view as less important or whatever. Feminist issues, maybe racism and homophobia issues? But we can have as many posts as we want on women's breast sizes.

[olddots]

35. Grumpy how dare you care ?????

[Zorra]

37. *sigh* Who do you think fought tooth and nail to get those rights in the first place?

Who do you think fought for the right to even express the idea (the THEORY!) that women should be able to control their own bodies/destinies?

Subtle hints:

1. It wasn't you.

2. FeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeministsFeminists........

[Comrade Grumpy]

40. You should have some idea what you're talking about before you cast aspersions.

Let's be clear: You don't know me. You don't know what I've done around abortion rights.

There were and are a lot of men who fully support women's rights to their own bodies and have actually done things in the real world to protect those rights. I'm one of them.

I'm much more interested in real world feminism than grad school seminar feminism. But that's just me.

[Zorra]

44. Let's be clear: Struggling for choices was once considered grad school feminism, too. nt

[HiPointDem]

83. let's be clear; not so much, as few women went to graduate school and the women's studies infra-

structure was just being established at the time of roe v. wade.

[MNBrewer]

38. Exactly.

[alp227]

39. Y'know, maybe a nation that respects its women as full PEOPLE not men's inferiors

will start respecting reproductive freedom.

[Zorra]

41. Wow. OMG, this irony of thread is un-fucking-believable!

FUBAR.

It would be absolutely, stunningly hilarious if it weren't so sad that many of those who posted in support of this thread have no clue about what I mean.

uuughh

[seabeyond]

91. ya. i am thinking more this...

[LanternWaste]

43. No... we're discussing it, not fighting over it-- two wholly separate concepts.

"and we're fighting over feminist theory?"
No... we're discussing it, not fighting over it-- two wholly separate concepts.

"It's like we're off in the corner sniping at each other, while real rights for real women are being scuttled."
Simply because you or others may be incapable of holding more than one idea, one concept, or one dialog in their heads at any one time is no reason to project that same weakness onto everyone else.

Yes... the erosions of women's rights are indeed being discussed-- including abortion. Take a look around the place.

[gollygee]

46. It's all related

It's so frustrating to discuss this here.

Benevolent sexism on a society-wide level leads to women being seen as less capable. We need assistance with simple tasks. That leads to us being considered incapable of other things, like making a good choice when we have an unintended pregnancy. Or being incapable in the workplace.

Opening doors is a red herring.

Also, almost everyone at DU agrees about abortion rights so there isn't a lot to discuss as far as that goes.

[dogknob]

47. Watch the Birdie!

The thing about the benevolent sexism... what are they calling them?... oh yes, discussions. Funny calling it a discussion when it's clear that the OPs are mostly not interested in discussing anything.

EDIT: reading some of the responses. Yup... just more you-lack-the-mental-capacity and you-people-just-don't-get-it crap. Whatever.

[snooper2]

54. All of this has had me reading up on the feminist sex wars...

Pretty interesting stuff...

one wiki entry for example-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAMOIS

Samois was a lesbian-feminist BDSM organization based in San Francisco that existed from 1978 to 1983. It was the first lesbian S/M group in the United States.[1] It took its name from the fictional estate of Anne-Marie, a lesbian dominatrix character in Story of O, who pierces and brands O. Well-known members of the group included the writer Pat Califia and feminist academic Gayle Rubin.

The roots of Samois were in a group called Cardea, a women's discussion group within the mixed-gender S/M group, the Society of Janus. Cardea existed only briefly, from 1977 to 1978 before discontinuing, but a core of lesbian members, including Califia and Rubin, were inspired to start Samois, an exclusively lesbian BDSM group.[2][3]

Samois was strongly rebuked (and sometimes picketed) by Women Against Violence in Pornography and Media (WAVPM), an early anti-pornography feminist group. WAVPM, like later anti-pornography feminists, was very strongly opposed to sadomasochism, seeing it as ritualized violence against women. Samois members felt strongly that their way of practicing SM was entirely compatible with feminism, and held that the kind of feminist sexuality advocated by WAVPM was conservative and puritanical. Samois openly confronted WAVPM with their position, and the exchanges between the two groups were among the earliest battles of what later became known as the Feminist Sex Wars, with Samois being among the very earliest advocates of what came to be known as sex-positive feminism.[4] The book Coming to Power, edited by members of the Samois group and published in 1981, was a seminal work of the lesbian BDSM movement.

Samois split up in 1983 amid personal infighting; however, in 1984 Gayle Rubin went on to form another organization called The Outcasts. The Outcasts lasted until 1997, until they too split due to infighting. A breakaway group, The Exiles, is still extant as of 2012 and carries on in the tradition of Samois and The Outcasts.[3] In 1996, Pat Califia and Robin Sweeny published an anthology titled The Second Coming: A Leatherdyke Reader that also contained historical information on The Outcasts, as well as other lesbian BDSM groups such as the Lesbian Sex Mafia and Briar Rose.[5]

[lpbk2713]

64. DU, the land of 1,000 agendas.

Stick around. Next week another one will float to the surface.

[Scout]

73. oh for fuck's sake

Last edited Mon Mar 18, 2013, 06:05 PM - Edit history (1)

'cuz of course if we're not posting about it on DU, we aren't doing anything about it in real life.

jesus h fucking christ on a god damn pogo stick.

i don't think much of ANYTHING posted by ANYONE on DU has much of an effect on ANYTHING in real life. those of you who think otherwise, are in my opinion, well, naive? self-important? i don't know

maybe some education, but we pretty much preach to the choir here, don't we?

[seabeyond]

87. so grumpy. where is the actual thread discussing the war on abortion. cause this Op isnt it.

it is about dissing feminist.

do tell... where the thread is you have created, that is going to get us all going in this issue.

waiting....

or, is the war on women... ooops, war on abortion rights just a means for you to diss us?

when you get that Op going, let me know. i will jump right in.

[ljm2002]

89. If you are so concerned about abortion rights...

...then why not start a thread about that, rather than start a thread sniping at your fellow DUers?

Pot. Kettle. Black.

[BainsBane]

94. snap

You called that right.

[BainsBane]

93. No one here is fighting over feminist theory, at least not in GD

They haven't read feminist theory. They are manufacturing controversies in an effort to trivialize feminism.