Dad Says Facebook Photo Of Son With Gun Brought Cops To House

[Purveyor]

A New Jersey man says that, on the basis of mere hearsay about a Facebook photo of his 11-year-old son with a .22 rifle, police and child protection arrive at his door and demand entry.



I am sure there are several 11-year-old boys who are terribly proficient at handling a gun.
But, given that I wouldn't trust an 11-year-old boy with a popsicle, I would just as well not be anywhere near them.

This, however, doesn't appear to have been the policy of the authorities in New Jersey. They were allegedly alarmed by a Facebook photo of Josh Moore, aged 11, holding a .22 rifle, and they allegedly wanted to get very near him.

The photo had been posted by his father, Shawn, to Facebook. It showed Josh, in his camouflage outfit and rather bright sneakers.

Shawn Moore told his story to a forum on the Delaware Open Carry Web site.
He said he received a text from his wife that police and alleged members of the Department of Youth and Family Services had paid their home a visit. It was, allegedly, not a social call.

MORE...

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-57575251-71/dad-says-facebook-photo-of-son-with-gun-brought-cops-to-house/

[MadHound]

1. Stupidity on the part of the cops and the DYFS.

Hadn't even seen the photo, going solely on hearsay. Picture looks exactly like what it was, a kid getting what is probably his first gun on his birthday.

Oh, and there are many, many eleven years old who are quite proficient at handling a gun.

[Mnemosyne]

2. .22's sure look different these days. As far as the clothes go, walk into any Kmart or similar

around here and that is almost all you see in the boys sections, that and skulls. Even on toddler clothes.

[Mnpaul]

31. It is just a plastic cover

with a convention 22 magazine under that fake one

They sell for around $300. I saw some idiot pay $600 on an auction thinking that is was the real deal.

[Mnemosyne]

63. Thanks Mnpaul. I wasn't aware that there are such things. Why would anyone want to pay $300 for a

plastic cover? Does it do anything besides make a little gun look big?

[Mnpaul]

67. I imagine it makes it harder to clean/repair

and harder to load. Harder to find a case.

[Mnemosyne]

68. Thanks! It seriously makes no sense. People. nt

[NickB79]

69. You should see what they've done with pellet rifles

http://www.gunstar.co.uk/Air-Rifles/Crosman-M4-177-gun-for-sale-gs93015.aspx

I like shooting, but that's just stupid. Every time I see one of these at Walmart I just think how a cop would empty his clip at any ignorant kid he saw carrying one.

[Mnemosyne]

91. I agree, those would get a kid killed. Wth is wrong with people? Is this a macho thing?

Thanks Nick! I come from a family of hunters, though never wanted to myself. No one in my family would have wanted to carry these things.

[pipoman]

3. When I was 14 I was taking

my shotgun on the school bus for trap shooting in physical education..p.e., that dates me, eh?

[Purveyor]

5. And I'll guess you were not raised by a daycare center and forced to starting taking meds at the age

of four just because you were acting like a 'four year old'?

[MadHound]

7. What, are you assuming that this kid is? n/t

[Purveyor]

10. Re-read my response pipo and perhaps you will get clue. eom

[MadHound]

12. I did, my question still stands. n/t

[Purveyor]

14. I'm with you on this one. Parents wouldn't buy their kid a gun unless they were involved parents

and didn't have them hopped up on meds just so they didn't have actually interact with their kids.

[pipoman]

16. Uh, no..

are most kids these days? My son went to daycare..he has been shooting something since he was 6. Qualified expert in Marine basic training.

[Eleanors38]

21. At 14 I showed my class how to clean a Remington shotgun.

[IADEMO2004]

93. I had a bus driver that would road hunt after most of the kids were off.

box behind his seat w rabbit & pheasant

We cheered his successful shots

early 60's

[onehandle]

4. This is not normal. Gun culture is an abberation. nt

[MadHound]

6. Why do you consider that not normal?

Most kids who are given guns get them around their tenth or eleventh birthday. Most of them start off with .22's. That is quite common out here in the Midwest, I see nothing abnormal about it. I imagine that the kid and his dad have a great time hunting together, or other shooting events.

Geez, you would have fainted back in the day at my high school. During deer season virtually every kid's pickup in the parking lot had at least one deer rifle in the window gun rack, parked on school property.

[onehandle]

15. Thanks for the tale of good 'ol days in Mayberry. Now we have 100 round military weapons...

...with one purpose. Killing lots of people.

As the country blueifies and populates, this madness will be shunned.

[pipoman]

18. This is where you're wrong, proven just today..

"Right now her amendment, using the most optimistic numbers, has less than 40 votes. That's not 60," Reid told reporters at the Capitol Tuesday.

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/19/17373761-assault-weapons-ban-dropped-from-senate-bill?lite

You see, contrary to your propaganda, pro 2nd Democrats are alive and well...well enough to elect reps who know their wishes on key issues. These Democratic senators aren't voting against the wishes of their constituents, or because of the NRA..there are more of us than you wish to acknowledge..

[MadHound]

19. It's not the "good 'ol days",

The only reason you don't see the same sight now is because schools have disallowed weapons on school property. But kids, at least here in the Midwest, still go out deer hunting, even at a young age. Some are as young as seven.

Oh, and the vast majority of Americans, Democrats and Republicans, support the right of individuals to own firearms. Somewhere between two thirds and three quarters of Americans. I doubt that is going to change anytime soon.

[Fawke Em]

48. No they're not!

I live in the South and buying a gun for my son has never crossed my mind.

You're living in a world that no longer exists for the majority of us.

[MadHound]

59. Well, just because you're not doing it, doesn't mean others aren't.

Go do a web search, you'll find that giving a kid a gun as a gift is still very much in fashion.

[onehandle]

62. 'A web search.' Yeah. The Internet is Really reflective of reality.

According to the 'Internet' a million home invasions are stopped by 98 pound moms of three with her trusty AR-15 every night.

I'm from Georgia. Nobody I knew gave their kid their own gun. Especially one that looks like the kind you would mow down other kids with.

I don't doubt that some kids get guns, but they are an exception, and most people in red Georgia would raise their eyebrows at the thought.

[Electric Monk]

8. Reminds me of this

http://culture-human-rights.blogspot.ca/2012/06/lubanga-judgment-new-case-law-on-child.html

[Eleanors38]

26. Really? Not me. nt

[Comrade Grumpy]

73. Maybe where you live. n/t

[slackmaster]

90. Yes, any photo of a person holding a firearm is clearly an aberration

[baldguy]

9. Good. That's the way it's supposed to work.

[MadHound]

11. Oh, so you believe in sending in cops and DYFS without a warrant based on nothing more substantial

Than hearsay about a Facebook photo? Nice to see you respect the Fourth Amendment so much

[pipoman]

20. There are two approaches taken by gun control

the authoritarian approach, and the fear approach. Sometimes it surprises me how many hereabouts are totally down with the former..

[Eleanors38]

23. On D.U. both approaches are often advocated.

[baldguy]

22. Ever hear of "probable cause"?

There's no telling who took the photo, or what reason, or when. Just that an obviously underage person was in possession of a firearm - which is a crime. It's perfectly correct that the police or family services should investigate.

Or don't you think "responsible gun owners" should need to be certain where their firearms are at all times & who is using them?

[Llewlladdwr]

24. From the photo there's no way to tell it's even a real weapon.

I'm not seeing probable cause here at all.

[Eleanors38]

25. please cite the law which was violated.

[baldguy]

35. Please show me where the law says a minor child can legally be in posession of a firearm.

I can think of a few. I also see no evidence of these situations in the photo. "Probable cause".

[Eleanors38]

55. You brought up probable cause of illegality, you back it up.

Take responsibility for your statements.

[oldhippie]

65. Laws don't generally say what you can do ....

... they say what you can't do.

In Texas a minor child can be in possession of a firearm with very few exceptions.

[MadHound]

28. Displaying your ignorance again,

The police and DYFS went in without ever having seen the picture in question, they went in based on hearsay. Hardly probably cause. Oh, and holding a gun, even hunting by an eleven year old is not against the law in New Jersey, or most other states.

Finally, if the people at DYFS had looked at that picture, do you honestly think they would have thought that kid was being abused?

Seriously, you're reaching now, even for you.

[baldguy]

34. Minimun age for a gun license in NJ is 18.

Are you trying to say that kid can pass for 18? Who's being ignorant?

[MadHound]

39. Try rereading for comprhension, OK?

I stated that hunting by an eleven year old is legal, as it is in most states. The gun is probably registered to the kid's dad, even though it was given to the kid as a birthday present. Also, not illegal, and rather common.

[baldguy]

40. You really are an idiot, aren't you?

Five minutes on the Intertubes gives me this: "New Jersey issues resident and nonresident hunting licenses free of charge to those under the age of 16 who have completed a Hunter Education Course. Properly licensed youth hunters (resident & non-resident) aged 10–13 may hunt only when accompanied by a properly licensed adult aged 21 or older." - http://www.njfishandwildlife.com/youthlic.htm

Any indication the kid was hunting? No.
Had a license? No.
Was supervised by an adult? No.
Any at all?

No, no and no. But you would have us believe that the police would just ignore a minor child playing with a firearm? Not only that, but they should ignore it?

I guess "responsibility" just isn't in your vocabulary, huh?

[Demo_Chris]

41. Except the supervising adult is, as I understand it, the one who posted the pic

His DAD.

[Demo_Chris]

43. Do you think that calling me a name enhances your argument?

In any case, you are the one who said there was "No indication (he was)... supervised by an adult"

I was pointing out that this is incorrect. I might also point out that an investigation into a rumored picture on the internet would properly begin with looking at the picture, rather than a police raid. This is is no doubt a radical concept in our current shoot-first, question-later police state, but there it is.

[Demo_Chris]

45. Yeah, except I am not a "gun fetish moron"

I do not currently own any guns, I have never posted my opinion on the debate, and since I already know who will win I see no reason to care about it -- other than as it impacts our party. I understand your passion, but as I said, it's probably best if you leave out the insults and slurs. They don't help.

[oldhippie]

66. I think you are having problems with the English language ....

... concepts of "possession" vs. "licensed."

[TransitJohn]

74. Where in the USA do you have to have attained majority

to own or possess a firearm? In your fantasy America in your mind, maybe.

[msanthrope]

92. I'm intrigued. Why do you think there is a 4th amendment violation? nt

[Comrade Grumpy]

75. No, that's not the way it's supposed to work.

A picture of a kid with a gun is not evidence of child abuse or neglect.

[Gravitycollapse]

13. This is normal behavior in many communities. Although I do not necessarily condone it.

I do not think the cops and DPS should have been called out. That's ridiculous.

[Bonobo]

61. Also normal to have police ensure there is no need to worry about the safety of innocents

What is the problem with having police check things out?

[alp227]

76. Isn't that a police state, not a free country? n/t

[WinniSkipper]

87. Should a picture of a kid

bringing dad a beer generate such a response from DYFS and Police?

[Llewlladdwr]

17. Hopefully the family will successfully sue both the cops and DYFS.

There's absolutely nothing in that picture indicating any sort of child abuse or endangerment at all.

[Hoyt]

27. Dad and kid probably consider Randy Weaver as a role model. Jeebus.

[MadHound]

29. No, father and son probably go hunting together,

Like millions of others do. Get a grip.

[Hoyt]

32. Doubt it, or gun would be set up like a proper hunting rifle.

And I bet kid can't wait to tote a gun in public, like dad. Afraid of the boogeyman.

The gun is a dead giveaway.

[MadHound]

37. You do realize that guns like that can be reconfigured, don't you?

Will it make the best hunting gun, no, but you can go hunting with it, target shooting, or just plinking cans. Switch out stocks, the magazine is a fake to cover the real magazine, etc. But continue to be afraid of the scary looking gun if you want to.

[Hoyt]

46. Kid's dad was proud the his son wanted a .22 that looks like assault/tactical weapon.

You'll probably find Lanza, Stawicki, Holmes, etc., were all thrilled by such crud. Kid is too young to know, dad should. The dad is the Archie Bunker of guns.

[Llewlladdwr]

33. Just as I'm sure you consider Vicki Weaver's murderer a hero.

Jeebus indeed...

[Hoyt]

36. naw, the racist gun trafficker weaver hid behind his wife and kid rather than

surrendering to law enforcement aftervthey gave the racist days to surrender. He choose to hide behind his armed kid. Should have been a law-adiding gun owner rather than racist illegal gun trafficker

[baldguy]

38. The person responable for Vicki Weaver's death is none other than Randy Weaver.

He's the one who put her and the rest of his family in harm's way by his own actions.

Double Jeebus ... support for a White supremacist on DU?!?!?

[Hoyt]

83. Over past few years, I've encountered number of gungeoneers supporting Weaver's despicable actions.

[Comrade Grumpy]

77. Wow, that is one baseless, stupid post.

[Niceguy1]

30. i

Learned to shoot when i was 11 also.

Here in deer season is still a big deal.

I guess some people can't grasp the thought that such activities can be safe and quality time with your children is always good. Deer season is a big part of out culture.

[Fumesucker]

47. I had a 30-06 deer rifle casually pointed at me last deer season by a "law abiding gun owner"

I've written of it before. The gun owner, a family member, is taking his ten year old daughter out hunting and doesn't know enough to control where his own rifle is pointing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2168660

Not a deliberate act, just a deer hunter letting the barrel of his rifle point at a being I hope he didn't intend to kill. I have no idea if the gun was loaded, cocked, safety conditions or whatever, I took off in the opposite direction when I figured out the hunter wasn't paying attention to his rifle. The deer with a hole blown in it laying the pickup bed didn't help my peace of mind at all.

[Gravitycollapse]

50. How exactly was the firearm positioned? And how far away were you?

[Fumesucker]

56. Maybe fifteen feet give or take five feet

The rifle was positioned in such a way that it was pointed at my torso and the forty year old man was acting like a kid who just shot his first buck. Come to think of it, it was his first buck, he carried it around to show all his friends and family.

"Never point your gun at anything you don't intend to kill", the second rule of firearms after "a gun is always loaded".

Interestingly enough in my circle of acquaintances and family we have had two men fall out of deer stands leading to their eventual demise, broken neck in both cases, one died on the spot and the other from pneumonia after several years of quadriplegia.

[Gravitycollapse]

57. Ah okay. So he was just being an idiot, not intentionally pointing the gun at you.

[Fumesucker]

58. An idiot with a gun

Such a comforting thought.

Did I mention he's a right wing fundie?

The guy is a relative by marriage and actually means well I think but his casual attitude with the damn gun scared me spitless, he was waving it around and I think ended up having it aimed at everyone in the group at some point. The guy is an EMT and fireman too, should definitely know better.

[krawhitham]

49. 16 to drive, 18 to smoke, 21 to drink

Why no age restriction on guns?

[Gravitycollapse]

53. There are restrictions: 18 to own long rifles and 21 for pistols and revolvers.

[The Straight Story]

51. ROFL Has a similar pic of one daughter who is in civil air patrol

Camouflage and gun at her gun safety training.

Guess that will scare the nuts out there. Though they will say it is ok because someone in our government is the trainer.

The pro-government, anti-citizen nuts will go crazy every time they see a pic of someone doing something they don't.

Let's sell some more fear. The government likes it, big defense likes it, and those wanting to control others using it love it too.

50 million Americans have guns. Let's focus on a small percent to prop up fear and agenda and stereotypes (but yell when others do it for other topics).

[Gravitycollapse]

52. I don't understand how this photo is even controversial.

It's a kid posing with a firearm. I'm not sure I'd let my kid do the same, but that's a personal choice and my opinion is still evolving.

The fact that the police and DPS were called out is simply ridiculous. How can you have the authorities called on you when you're doing absolutely nothing wrong?

[The Straight Story]

54. Because people live in and promote fear

It is like being a perpetual victim. You don't have to use the gun. I could be a BB gun, etc - but that a kid has one scares them so...more laws and money.

Growing up most all kids in the hood had BB guns and we shot a .22 early on in life, especially on new years' eve. My daughter fired a .22 pistol when she was 9 at a target.

Some folks want to believe, and will spend a lot of time working on convincing themselves and others, that any citizen with a gun is a killer and mentally ill. 50 million so far, give or take.

Are guns in the wrong hands a problem? Uhh yeah, duh. But the term 'wrong hands' means everyone other than rich people and government officials to some and criminals to others.

Fear it sells here like hotcakes. We are all sexist gun crazed nuts who want to kill everyone.

[RandiFan1290]

60. Sounds like bullshit to me

I'm not buying it. They are just looking for attention and hoping to make the rw talk show circuit.

[Renew Deal]

64. It's not hearsay

Seems like the right thing to do.

[NickB79]

70. This is what's inside the black plastic casing of that gun

A Mossberg .22LR Plinkster rifle: http://www.mossberg.com/products/rifles/autoloading/rimfire

They took a common .22LR gun that's been used for the past 50 years by millions of kids hunting squirrels, rabbits and cans, and threw a few "tactical" features on it. Not my cup of tea, but nothing to lose your shit over either.

Also, I noticed that the kid is pointing the gun in a safe direction, and his finger is not on the trigger or even inside the trigger guard. He at least has some decent training in proper firearms safety.

Oh no, it's a scary-looking black rifle though! Run for your lives!

[Paladin]

79. Upthread, It Says That $300 Was Spent To Make That Mossburg .22 "Scary-Looking"

So let's have no snotty comments from you about a "scary-looking black rifle." A lot of money and effort was expended to get the desired look and effect---the thought process which went into establishing the need for such a conversion is probably not a pretty thing to behold. School employees were rightfully apprehensive, given recent events.

[NickB79]

82. A good way to get idiots to part with their money

And that's about it. My point about saying it was a scary black rifle was that it is functionally no different or more lethal than the same gun that's been marketed and sold for 50 years to millions of young shooters, despite it's appearance.

And I'll thank you to not tell me what I can and can't post on an open forum.

[Paladin]

85. "despite its appearance"

$300 gets you a pretty authentic-looking shell of an assault rifle, the kind of firearm used in Newtown, Aurora, and other well-known shootings. Seeing the photo of that camouflage-clad kid cradling that rifle, were school officials and law enforcement agents charged with knowing it was a mere Mossberg .22 plinker? Hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it? And I stand by my criticism of your "scary rifle" comment; people on my side of the argument aren't the ones dipping into the family funds to buy the fucking things......

[Initech]

71. First rule of Facebook: don't post shit that will get you in trouble.

[TransitJohn]

72. Simply

tailor-made for an epic DU thread.

[MicaelS]

78. Here's the story, straight from the man himself.

http://deloc.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8175

He basically told the cops, and social worker, to go fuck themselves. Good for him.

The fight has officially been brought to my front door

Last night I was out with a buddy of mine. I got a text from my wife that the cops and dyfs are at the house and they wanna check out my guns and needed me to open my safe.
I'm instantly on my way. I get in contact with evan Nappen on the way. I explain the situation. I walk in my house and hand the phone to the first cop I see. Then direct all of em outside. Dyfs got a call because of a pic on my son holding a gun. They wanted to look around and check all my guns out, make sure they were all registered. Obviously that didn't go well because I refused. I had Nappen on speaker phone the entire time so they had to deal with both of us. They kept trying to pressure me to open my safe. They had no warrant, no charges, nothing. I didn't budge. I was told I was being "unreasonable" and that I was acting suspicious because I wouldn't open my safe. Told me they were gonna get a search warrant. Told em go ahead. Nappen (my lawyer) asked me for the dyfs workers name. she wouldnt give it. i asked for credentials and she wouldnt show em. i tried to take a pic of her and she turned around real fast and walked away. After a while of them threatening to take my kids, get warrants and intimidation they left. Empty handed and seeing nothing.

People it can happen that fast. Most people wouldn't have stood up to them like I did.

[Paladin]

80. Straight From The "Delaware Open Carry" Site. How Unsurprising. (nt)

[MicaelS]

86. So what?

That's where he posted his story. His thread was a hyperlink in the original CNET story.

I don't give a damn where he posted it. I think he's to be admired for not caving into a bunch of cops in tac gear, without them having a warrant. Most people would not have the courage to do so.

And fuck whomever called the cops and DYFS in the first place. I hope he can find out who did so, and sue the living shit out of them.

The more we insist on exposing who we are to people we don't know, the more hullabaloo seems to inevitably develop.

Shit like this is just another reason not to have a social networking page.

[JoePhilly]

81. Sounds like the guy is preparing for the black helicopters to arrive.

[madville]

84. I my own wooden gun cabinet in my bedroom

Had a Ruger 10/22, Ruger Single Six, H&R .410, and a Winchester 30-30 in it. Got all of those from about ages 6 to 9.

[Blue_Tires]

88. In light of events over the past few years, dad is a moron

if he thought this could get posted on FB and not expect any "special" attention...Especially since the second or third question after every mass shooting is "Why didn't the people who knew so-and-so best notice any of the signs???"

I'm not saying it's right or wrong; it's just the nature of the political climate for now...It's the same reasoning why it's prudent to never say "bomb" while on a commercial flight -- Some people will have a nice, long chat with you once the plane lands...

[bowens43]

89. Good. What kind of asshole let's his kid do this?

There is no such thing as a responsible gun owner.