So you’re tired of hearing about “rape culture”?

[redqueen]

Trigger warning.

Someone asked me today, “What is ‘rape culture’ anyway? I’m tired of hearing about it.”

Yeah, I hear ya. I’m tired of talking about it. But I’m going to keep talking about it because people like you keep asking that question.

...

Rape culture is when you’re tired of hearing about “rape culture” because it makes you uncomfortable, as your attempt to silence discourse on the subject means we never raise enough awareness to combat it –and that’s part of why it sticks around.

So yeah, I’m sorry you’re tired of hearing about it. But I wouldn’t expect us to shut up anytime soon. Nor should we.

http://rantagainsttherandom.wordpress.com/2013/03/19/so-youre-tired-of-hearing-about-rape-culture/

[La Lioness Priyanka]

1. people only object to being called a rape culture, in their own culture

the threads here on rape in india, show that in other cultures, we are happy to see how the culture may breed rape

[redqueen]

2. Thank you, that is an incredibly important point. nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

3. or in saudi or iran or anywhere else on earth but where they live.

we dont want to see how we add to people's oppression because it involves acknowledging how we are part of it

[redqueen]

5. Or even just not in their peer group.

When in reality this permeates society, and is therefore insidiously woven into every facet of it.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

13. We all know the really important question is

Are they socially popular members of the local team heading for the state finals?

After that, does anything else really matter?

[seabeyond]

22. or, what i heard this last round, it is certain PARTS of the country. Connecticut anyone. nt

[bettyellen]

29. great point- we had an educated DUer from NYC claiming there were "pockets" that excluded

the well educated, northerners, and city dwellers.

Perfect example of what you are saying here!

[Solly Mack]

9. True.

[MattBaggins]

26. Same as the sexism episode last weekend

It is about asking people to question themselves. People will go ballistic and foam at the mouth at the mere suggestion of self examination.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

36. yup. we are especially defensive when power is at stake

and rape etc keeps women in their place and stops their ascent to equality

[ismnotwasm]

55. Exactly

Point fingers everywhere else, and deny it over here.

[riqster]

4. Please click the link and read the blog

Disturbing but powerful.

[Zorra]

6. +1 nt

[Helen Reddy]

7. proud to kick n/t

[Solly Mack]

8. K&R

[geek tragedy]

10. The first rule of Rape Culture is to not talk about Rape Culture. nt

[Downwinder]

11. Rape Culture is where a Cheerleader is required to

cheer for her rapist.

[Helen Reddy]

14. Ugh

I remember that, perhaps someone should revisit and put up a thread.

[Orrex]

12. I'll be tired of hearing about rape culture when we no longer live in a rape culture

Until then, we absolutely should keep talking about it.

[hfojvt]

15. so it's rape culture

when a couple of drunk morons make some really stupid comments on video?

"Rape culture is when a group of athletes rape a young girl, and then joke about it on video – saying, ““She is so raped,” “They raped her quicker than Mike Tyson!”, “They raped her more than the Duke lacrosse team!”, and she was “deader than Trayvon Martin.” – while everyone else laughs. (Warning: this video will make you sick to your stomach.)"

Except on the video "everyone else" is not laughing. Most don't even seem to be paying attention to the moron in the video. There are several conversations going on. Plus there is clearly at least one guy who is upset. Says something like "I might be the crap out of Trent for this." and says to the moron star of the video "This isn't funny. What if that was your daughter?" and "Well I have a little sister."

But what the heck, that's part of "everyone else laughs".

And then there's "the public". How exactly does "the public" do anything?

It seems to me that according to this blogger that if one moron posts something stupid on facebook and 8 or 100 people "like" it, that translates into "the public is stupid".

"… and the public responds with this…."

Seriously? ONE person says something and that is somehow a reflection of "the public"?

So I am seeing lots of hyperbole and dishonesty in this blog entry.

The other thing is about friendship. Friendship is a funny thing. Let's take rape out of the equation for a second. Let's say I am on a football team. This is a little bit like being part of a street gang. We, on the team, are buddies. We have been playing football together perhaps since the 7th grade. So these 20 or 30 guys on my team are my friends and I am their friend. But now let's say one or two of my friends does something stupid or evil or criminal. Say, it's armed robbery.

Now, here you are finding out about this. What are you supposed to do? What is "the right" thing to do? What would YOU want your friend to do, if YOU were in the same situation that your friend is in? Most people put "friends first". Or maybe "family first, and then friends." Or actually the hierarchy is "my own butt (making sure it is covered), then family, then friends". Strangers, like the victim of this armed robbery, are simply not that important, unless, say, it is my aunt or uncle who owns the store or something.

Also, there is the "gang pressure". What happens to me if I betray a member of the gang? The rest of the gang is gonna turn on me - big time. They, unlike me, are gonna stand up for their friend, defend him, and attack those who are trying to hurt him. And in the hierarchy of scumbaggery, I just became one of the lowest of the low. I became a person who betrayed his friend - a traitor. Nobody wants to be a traitor.

[redqueen]

25. Nitpicking cherry-picked examples to minimize the problem?

Not exactly unexpected, but an A for effort.

They were not "some really stupid comments", they were incredibly misogynist, rape-culture-enabling hate speech.

[geek tragedy]

41. Check out the part where he asks

the reader whether they would want their friends to turn them in if they had raped someone.

Classy.

[bettyellen]

31. Nobody wants to be a traitor? WTF are they friends with rapists, for fuck's sake?

Is that NOT a deal breaker? Jesus what a bunch of half assed rape apologist swill.
Shame on you.

[gollygee]

32. Nobody wanting to "be a traitor" to a rapist = rape culture. n/t

[redqueen]

37. That's why I liked this blog so much.

http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/

He said it so well.

What they do is what works. They rape their drunk acquaintances because it works. They rape their drunk acquaintances because we let them.

We need to revoke the rapists’ social license to operate. We need to stop asking, “why do we think he didn’t know she wasn’t consenting,” which is the first question now, really. First as a cultural matter — leaving the legal matter aside —we need to adopt the stance that sexual interaction ought to always be had in a state of affirmative consent by all participants; that anything else is aberrant. If someone says, “I was sexually assaulted,” the first question should be, “why was a person continuing with sexual activity when zir partner did not want to?”

This is what it is: real rape happens when the attacker is drunk and the target is drunker and alone and isolated. That’s rape-rape. If he gets away with it, it will be, on average, rape-rape-rape-rape-rape-rape. If we refuse to listen, he can continue to pretend that the rapist is some guy in the parking lot late at night, when it’s actually him, in our friends’ bedrooms half an hour after last call. If we let that happen, we’re part of the problem.

The rapists can’t be your friends, and if you are loyal to them even when faced with the evidence of what they do, you are complicit.

[geek tragedy]

39. Yeah, that big moral obligation of whether to stop

your friend from raping someone or helping turn him in.

Hmmm, preventing rape or maintaining friendship with a rapist?

Only a rape apologist would find this a difficult question.

[geek tragedy]

40. If my friend raped someone, I would no longer be a friend to him.

There is no moral ambuiguity, no dilemma.

But now let's say one or two of my friends does something stupid or evil or criminal. Say, it's armed robbery.

Now, here you are finding out about this. What are you supposed to do? What is "the right" thing to do? What would YOU want your friend to do, if YOU were in the same situation that your friend is in? Most people put "friends first".

Holy fucking rape apologism--see part in bold.

[Iggo]

43. "Let's take rape out of the equation for a second"

Now THAT's hilarious!

[Gravitycollapse]

53. Not wanting to be a traitor is exactly within the realm of rape culture.

[LanternWaste]

70. accurately illustrates Burke's truism, "All that evil requires is for good men to do nothing".

"Seriously? ONE person says something and that is somehow a reflection of "the public"?"

More along the lines of one person says something, everyone else but a few says nothing. Which accurately illustrates Burke's truism, "All that evil requires is for good men to do nothing". However, I can see how that would make many people feel bad about their own inactions, and thus rationalize the reasons people rape culture (e.g. ,friendship, "gang pressure", "no one wants to be a traitor" etc...)


"So I am seeing lots of hyperbole and dishonesty in this blog entry."
As did I in the post I just responded to, regardless of whether the author is even ware of it or not...

[Comrade Grumpy]

16. Can we at least posit the existence of a prevailing "anti-rape culture"?

Rape is a serious FELONY CRIME in all 50 states and under federal law.

Rapists face some extremely harsh sentences, including up to the death penalty (I'm not sure if that's still the case with the death penalty).

Rapists face severe social opprobrium, replete with calls for all sorts of horrible consequences ranging from castration to lynching.

If anybody believe rape is a good thing, they are certainly afraid to say so out loud (although I am sure we could drudge up some barbarian somewhere hiding in the anonymity of the interwebs as the exception).

[Rex]

17. So serious that two young men got 1 to 2 years for it?

You sure are all over the road when it comes to this subject.

[Comrade Grumpy]

20. Sentences vary, for various reasons, some good, some not so much.

If you do a Google News search and get past all the Steubenville links, you'll see guys being sentenced to four years, 18 years, 40 years, 270 (!) years...just in the last couple of days.

There are varying degrees of horribleness involved. I imagine race and class also play a role, both the victim's and the perpetrator's.

In the Steubenville case, age was a factor.

[redqueen]

27. Prevailing? Hardly.

The vast majority of rapes go unreported. (Guess why.) So all the tough sentences aren't really such a deterrent.

Rapists face less social opprobrium than you seem to think. Most of them are supported over their victims. (Another part of that whole 'not reporting' thing.)

The internet is rife with rape threats. So yeah. That whole hiding in anonymity makes thousands of men very confident about proclaiming their desire to rape women.

Then we have the defenders of porn who claim that without it, men would rape even more.

And then there's the college students, those 'barbarians' who happily list the female students they'd like to rape.

Or the ones who admit they'd rape women if they were guaranteed to get away with it.

So yeah, prevailing? Not exactly, imo.

[SpartanDem]

30. You're still talking a very small segment of society that does these things

I could through my local papers for next month listing of all bad things done by people and conclude that the vast majority of humans suck. But I know that isn't the case.

[redqueen]

33. This thread is about rape culture, not rapists.

For example: Many, many people engage in victim blaming.

I did a thread explaining why it is always wrong and of course the reactions displayed exactly why it still happens.

As long as people tell rape jokes, blame victims, minimize the problem, etc, rapists will know they're at low risk.

[SpartanDem]

38. Many, but do most?

you know yesterday about that girl in CT who was raped and being harassed on the internet. The vast vast majority people commenting were appalled by what was being done to her. Far more than the number of cretins that where harassing her. Of course, things like this happen far too much and conversations like this need to happen in the broader society more often. But when you say that the prevailing attitude of people isn't anti-rape I don't think you're giving people enough credit.

[redqueen]

42. What is consistently overlooked is the number of victims, of either sex, who say nothing.

What very rarely makes the papers are the stories of those who tell a friend or loved one first, and are not believed. Or advised to let it go.

One hugely overlooked problem is incest.

[bettyellen]

50. so true! when I told my cousin that I didn't want to hang out with his friend

because (many years prior- when I was 15) he snuck up on me and he tried to rip my clothes off, he flat out refused to believe me. And my cousin and I were close- he had never doubted my word before. I had no idea he was still friends with this asshole, and that kind of bugged me. But I thought maybe he had reformed. So, I shut up about it, other than to insist we were not hanging out.

Another ten years, it comes up again, and he believes me immediately- because his friend had spent half of the last ten years in jail- part of it for sexual assault. And he did not remember I told him about it 10 years earlier. My cousin is the most sensitive and least sexist guy I know. It came down to he just didn't want to think that way about a friend.
But WTF would he think for a minute I would make that shit up? Fucking stupid thought process, right there.

[redqueen]

54. Experiences like yours are so very sadly common.

[bettyellen]

57. OMG, yes they are. It is still really hard for me to characterize it as an attempted rape...

to use those words, because I came out of it fine. Everyone was passed out drunk in the next room- including my own brother.
If I hadn't hit that fucker on the head with a cast iron pan, he would have had to beat me up.

And if he did, my brother would have drunkenly tried to avenge me. Just thinking about all that makes ME feel guilty more than anything else. I ALMOST caused such big trouble. That's how it feels when you are young. I saw the guy around town for weeks after and said nothing to anyone.

[redqueen]

58. That is one of the reasons rape culture is so persistent.

We feel so guilty about 'making a big deal' out of sexual harassment and even assault and attempted rape.

If that doesn't spell it out in shining fluourescent flashing neon lights, I don't know what does.

Rape culture is not a made up thing. It is not a 'subculture'. It is what we all grow up thinking is perfectly normal.

[Gravitycollapse]

56. Theories on rape culture also seek to redefine what constitutes "rape."

And this is why it's called rape culture. That rape is about much more than the forced act of sex. It is about the social and emotional destruction of one's autonomy.

If we were to aggregate all of the innuendo, back stabbing and slut shaming, we would possess a force that is equally as violent and abhorrent as the physical act of rape. So it is not enough to have stronger penalties for sexual assault because that does not address the societal complicity in the continued diminution of women.

On the face of it, we could take more aggressive prosecution of sexual assault as a sign that social justice is taking hold. But isn't that just another excuse used by those who wish to deny that rape culture exists?

"Rape culture is a thing of the past. Look at how many years that guy got for raping and murdering that girl."

[seabeyond]

66. we must deconstruct. and that is where so many, too many, the vast majority fight.

the majority may not fight about a rape, but the do in an attempt to deconstruct the structure that created and allowed.

[Rex]

18. Who here exactly is stating they are tired of it?

I keep seeing that and I don't see anyone saying they are 'tired of hearing about it'. Could you clarify who here keeps saying it...because I think they need to have a serious conversation as to why.

[redqueen]

28. Not my title.

However, worse than just whining about having to hear about it, we have claims that it doesn't even exist.

[Rex]

60. Now that is sad.

On DU, very sad.

[geek tragedy]

34. There's an entire 'official' DU group full of people

who deny it exists.

[bettyellen]

51. I have been on juries where people alerted on the MERE MENTION of rape culture!

on the theory that DU is a perfect world, and any conversation about it is just too insulting to the fine people here.
Yup.

[olddots]

19. We do what we can do

when I was junior high I heard a kid say " if the girl says no she really means yes " I asked who he heard it from and told him it was bad information in which case he tried to kick the shit out of me because his dad told him that bullshit.
Yeah we live in an international rape culture that seems to never go away but those of us guys who want to stop it are trying to help.
How many rape culture guys are here on DU ? I bet close to none except for the trolls but that's another story. The rape culture is about bad information which is a sales technique ,if its a beer ad or a father or friend telling another guy that "girls all really want it " has to be stopped and we are up against a huge problem with institutionalized ignorance in culture .
Us 'good guys " can only serve by example .

[Arcanetrance]

21. Rape culture is when a woman is raped and forced to stay with that person cause that person is her

husband.

[me b zola]

23. Recommended

Pointing out a cancerous aspect of our culture almost always draws the ire of people whom for one reason or another has an interest in keeping things hushed. But it has always been this way for those who seek social justice.

I won't be hushed.

[noiretextatique]

24. it's just like racism, sexism and homphobia

and other isms the dominant group wants to avoid responsibility for perpetuating.

[loyalsister]

35. Rape and other sexual assault are both part of our entertainment

Law & Order SVU has been running for many years and I think it minimizes rape because they always seem to get the guy. I had a conversation with a young woman who is pro-life. I told her that a rapists can get custody of their children. Her response: "but then he'd be in jail." I then had to educate her on the numbers. She has also mentioned that SVU is her favorite show.

I know it's not popular to suggest that entertainment has an impact but, every week they show a rape\sexual assault that is minimized when it is solved and they all go home suggesting that that's how it usually ends.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

44. really? svu is always discusing how hard it is to get women to come forward

because rape cases get dismissed and rape victims get treated poorly

i am not doubting that this woman said it, i am just doubting if they paid attention to svu

[loyalsister]

45. I know they say that

But do you deny that they give the impression that most rapes are solved and prosecuted because they always seem to catch them? They refer to past cases that weren't solved, but when they step in they catch the rapist.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

46. maybe i just remember the times they didnt get the guy

or the times the guy got out on bail better.

people have different memories for things.

although, i think of svu as at least getting people to acknowledge that being a rape victim doesn't require you to be perfect. like all of us can be victims and if we are, we should be treated as victims

[loyalsister]

47. Those are good points

The big problem I see is that it is entertainment that is taken as fact. The idea of rape and sexual assault as a weekly entertainment show. The formula for crime dramas is that they good guys win and the audience sleeps well after a night of entertainment.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

59. fair point

[redqueen]

48. If they're showing many types of victims, I will give them credit for that.

I have issues with the "sexy dead woman" trope, so if they're at least not engaging in that then that's a positive.

[seabeyond]

67. rape in too many movies have become sexualized to get the watcher off, not horrified.

that is what is really bothering me today on the rape scenes.

[loyalsister]

69. I agree

I guess in some ways, "The Accused" could be viewed as an inadvertent cautionary tale about how rape scenes might be viewed on the large or small screen.

[YoungDemCA]

49. Many of the same people who are "tired of hearing about rape culture"...

..are/were also tired of hearing about the racism embedded in American institutions, or about homopobia's pervasiveness in American society.

Basically, these are the people who hijacked the term "political correctness" and turned into a slogan of reactionaries.

[CrispyQ]

52. It drains you. But you must not give up the fight.

I did not know this:

Rape culture is when universities across the country do not report rape to the police, but handle the matter via "honor boards" - ultimately shielding perpetrators from criminal consequences.

The Belvedere ad, so offensive I cannot even believe! Then I scroll down & it's rape friendly ad after rape friendly ad. And there at the bottom, the family-friendly pizza company, delivering to your front door, the message, "NO IS THE NEW YES."

===
Of all the things in my life that I fight for, it is equality for all. The first division of our species is gender. Race, LGBT, religion, all those others come after gender. When I say that we are a species at war with itself, I envision the yin-yang. We are at the most tumultuous point of our species/environment existence. I fear the Mayan 2012 was really the point of no return.

Off for a few brews with friends. Hope I will be more cheery!

[bettyellen]

61. such a great post- but the comments are just embarrassing....

good on her for the patience for trying to educate people who didn't have the consideration to read it, yet yammer away with off point, navel gazing, knee jerk, defensive bullshit.

[Raffi Ella]

62. K&R

a voiceformen my ass. The Admins can look away all they like but I for one see this silencing all the time at DU and I'm not going to pretend otherwise. I want to publicly thank you RedQueen, and so many others, who are not afraid to speak up. I am so grateful that you are so ready, willing and able to take the abuse this topic always brings from a certain contingent on DU. It's not right, it's not fair and I am sick to death of witnessing it.

[redqueen]

63. Geez, "all men are rapists"? They really can't stop feeling sorry for themselves, can they?

Thanks for the kind words. The abuse does get old. It's also nice when personal attacks are left to stand simply because they're aimed at certain people.

[Sheldon Cooper]

65. Your point about the admins is so true:

I've seen the owner talking about community standards, and how it's sad that some groups are so targeted, mainly the Catholics lately. Unfortunately, I've not seen him feel sorry much at all regarding the rampant sexism and misogyny that is on display here each day. He can't even bring himself to specifically add sexism to the term of service agreement, despite repeated requests from a wide variety of members. It's inexplicable, frankly.

He can bemoan the community standards but the fact is that this is HIS website and HE has the power to make changes here. The decision to ignore this rests with him, and that's fine as far as it goes, but then let's not pretend that this site is in any way liberal or progressive, because it's clearly not.

If he truly wants to leave things up to "community standards", then he should open it up to community ownership.

And, for all the jurors: if this post gets me thrown off the website, so be it. I don't have an emotional attachment here and my life will continue as it always does, one way or the other. So, alert on it, rat me out to the boss, I don't care. Have a nice day.

[Comrade Grumpy]

72. You can always start your own web site.

[seabeyond]

68. take the fuckin abuse is damn right. tone... not so confrontational, my ass. you know,

i watch women abused and denigrated, and a woman dare to say anything they are mocked.... by the same posters over and over and over.

i am damn tired of it too. as a whole.

(your cover, avoiceformen, set me off). lol

[MadrasT]

71. Holy crap. That site is a cesspool.

Wow.

[redqueen]

73. Wow, just stumbled on this one.

Stealing a successful campaign to spread their sickening false-rape lies?