General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNo, Obamacare is not making your insurance premiums go through the roof.
That's just what some insurers want you to think.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/02/22/1189149/-No-Obamacare-is-not-making-your-premiums-go-through-the-roof
It's the heart of right-wing conventional wisdom: Obamacare is going make insurance premiums for everybody skyrocket. The Wall Street Journal calls it "ObamaCare health-insurance sticker shock." The CEO of Aetna said "somebody has to pay for" insuring all Americans. Fox News trumpeted rising premiums for everyone.
As usual lately, conventional wisdom is having a big fail. Actually, according to a new report from the Obama administration, double-digit premium rate increases are falling. Dramatically. The researchers looked at 15 states that make requests for rate increases by insurers public, and saw rate increases plummet, at least in the individual plan market.
Since 2010, there has been a decline in the proportion of rate filings in which the requested increase is at or above the Affordable Care Act threshold of 10 percent. In 2010, 75 percent of rate filings requested increases of 10 percent or more, a proportion that dropped to 34 percent in 2012 (See Figure 1).
SNIP
mercymechap
(579 posts)dude in Michigan, (I was working with Move.On, making calls to supposedly "democrats" in Michigan to sign up volunteers from that state to call other Michiganers and urge them to vote for Obama), and apparently he was not a Democrat. He wanted one good reason to vote for Obama and I told him Obamacare. After he blasted me with pejorative comments about Obamacare he informed me that his insurance premium had gone up by $30 because of Obamacare. I told him it wasn't even implemented yet, so how was it he was paying $30 more. He said, "My boss decided that because of Obamacare, he would no longer pay for hospital care on our insurance, so employees had to pick it up themselves". I said "Obamacare is not to blame, that was your boss that did that" - his reply, "yes, but it was due to Obamacare"! No wonder they're all against it, they are dense.
annabanana
(52,791 posts)... a rejoinder sized comeback, if you will.
"That's bullshit."
annabanana
(52,791 posts)Zax2me
(2,515 posts)Either all is fine, rates are not skyrocketing as the Obama admin claims...
or it's more and more bad news for insurers and people used to having "normal" insurance-traditional insurance model is doomed'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2553442
It can't be both.
TygrBright
(20,779 posts)Essentially, the model of choice was to replace the capitalist keep-em-sick-keep-em-paying system (KESKEP) with a public single-payer option.
Nobody thought it was do-able.
Several iterations were designed, each one less obvious.
The final, and elegant, model was designed on the principle of mandating the existing system to work the way it claims it's supposed to work.
Which includes controls on booting sick people out of the pool, refusing to incur risk or insure anyone who might be less than profitable, and a whole raft of fairly subtle controls on premium-jacking.
This was implemented in full knowledge that if it plays out as the legislation was designed to, it will render it so unprofitable for the insurance end of the KESKEP system that it will dry up and blow away.
That's the easy part.
It's the other end of the system- the ones who get rich from people staying sick enough to consume healthcare from for-profit providers- that's going to be the really tough nut to crack.
But we have made some steps in that direction as well.
It ain't gonna happen overnight. The cancer of KESKEP grew quietly for a long time before threatening to consume too big a share of the capitalist system, annoying enough of the rest of our Beloved Oligarchs to make it possible to address the problem.
helpfully,
Bright
Ferretherder
(1,446 posts)...and this was a typically insightful one.
lurking, as always....
ferret
TygrBright
(20,779 posts)I'm around but making a living dictates less time here than I'd like. So it's generally just commenting.
Besides, so many DUers with so many insightful posts say it before I get the chance, mostly!
We gots us some smart folks here, as well as the trolls.
amiably,
Bright
madrchsod
(58,162 posts)liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)a certain amount for care. Doctors and hospitals are not allowed to charge whatever they want.
Lugnut
(9,791 posts)Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)...and I've LITERALLY sat in the the CEO's office with goddamned TEARS in my eyes, pleading for affordable EMR to clients who couldn't afford our product. One client, in particular, a GP whose business was exclusively with underprivileged patients. That meeting resulted in a reduced rate for this urban practitioner.
THIS has to change - I've done my part...
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)which is what I think we were all hoping for.
Worse than that, Obamacare makes it more difficult for states like vermont to go single payer.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)All they have to do is get a waiver to make it happen. No state managed to do it before the ACA passed.
subterranean
(3,427 posts)It includes a clause that any state can institute their own plan if it will provide coverage at least equal to the ACA. And they'll still get federal funds for it too! The ACA does stipulate that states can only do this after 2017, but they can apply for a waiver to do it earlier.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)And why is Obamacare making this harder for Vermont. I'd heard the opposite -- that Vermont will get support from the Fed govt. for this effort.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)I hate when people try to rewrite history. We were all there, and the promises are on the record.
Obama vowed repeatedly during the 2008 campaign that premiums would fall drastically as a result of the ACA. Exactly the opposite has occurred, just as many of us warned at the time.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)premiums for many people but not until 2014.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Are you seriously trying to suggest that premiums will drop by over $5500 next year? Because that's what would have to happen in order for the promise to be kept. They would have to drop by the amount of the $3000 increase we have endured, and then drop *another* $2500:
Health Premiums Up $3,065; Obama Vowed $2,500 Cut
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/health-premiums-3-065-obama-224300715.html
So first you claim that ACA was never advertised to lower costs, only to slow their rate of growth...which is flat-out WRONG and a shameful rewriting of history. Then, when called out on your misrepresentation, which was clearly intended to suggest that we have no right to expect cuts at all, you brazenly shift your argument and suggest, absurdly, that subsidies will lop off $5500 next year and make Obama's promise come true.
That's some desperate application of lipstick you are trying to make, to a very ugly pig.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)you should be pressuring your state legislators.
Obamacare will be giving US income tax credits based on health insurance premiums paid by families making up to around $88K. That is the savings Obama was talking about.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)families who have to cough up skyrocketing premiums every month, please show me any evidence whatsoever that we can expect an across the board savings of about $5500 per family, or even close to that, starting next year.
A minute ago you were arguing that we have no right to expect any cost decrease AT ALL. You lectured us that a slowing of increases is *all* we have a right to expect based on Obama's own words.
Only when Obama's *actual* own words were put in front of you, did you start to talk about savings. So please understand why your words here about all this marvelous savings coming our way sound neither informed nor compelling.
This thread is a train wreck, because your argument is absurd on its face.
Ms. Toad
(34,126 posts)Whatever candidate Obama said in 2008 could not have been said about a law which did not exist until 1.5 - 2 years later.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Really, how dare any of us suggest that Barack Obama's promises about health care legislation should have anything to do with the *actual* health care legislation he offers after he is elected?!
Silly voters!
That's as nervy as suggesting that his promising to defend Social Security should mean NOT offering it up for cuts every chance he gets!
Ms. Toad
(34,126 posts)He can talk all he wants, but ultimately Congress drafts the laws. Anything he (or anyone else) said before the ACA was passed cannot be an assessment of how the as of yet undrafted law will work. If he made those same promises in March 2010, after the law was passed, then you might have a case for revisionist history.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Last edited Sun Mar 24, 2013, 11:11 AM - Edit history (4)
Seriously. You want to know what revisionist history I am sick to death of? I am so sick of Third Way apologism for a President who has been consistently in the pockets of the banks and corporations that I could vomit. I am sick to death of the constant efforts to pretty over the record of a President who has acted from Day One as a corporate Trojan horse, and try to portray him as a passionate progressive Democrat who has merely been blocked at every turn by powerful Republicans.
It gets old.
It gets old when we watch the sellouts, day after day after day after day after day, in every single area of policy important to the one percent. It gets old and tiring and nauseating beyond measure to be told, constantly, that the hand that is ripping rent money out of your hand and food out of your children's mouths and giving it to obscenely rich profiteers is really, honestly, in secret, caring about you and working for your best interests.
It is not only sickening, it is insulting as hell.
Since Day One, this President has pursued an agenda that is aggressively corporate. From his endless parade of crony appointments, to his relentless growth of the police state, to his murderous drone wars, to his environmental sabotage on behalf of big oil, to his selling off of our children's schools, to his inviting Monsanto into our pantries and profit mongers into our prisons....to this. Health care.
Not only did he make a backroom deal to kill the public option, he lied to the American people and claimed that he had never campaigned on a public option *after* the deal had been made, just as he lied to Americans that he would not support a mandate.
The ironically named ACA was perhaps the slickest bipartisan political scam by the corporate one percent in recent memory. It is an absolutely perfect example of how owning both parties allows the one percent to play them against each other to pass legislation that neither party would have accepted had it been presented honestly.
They fired up one side with the promise of universal healthcare, and they fired up the other side with the fear of government-controlled healthcare, and then they passed a "compromise" that favored neither but just happened to be a corporate wet dream: an unprecedented mandate for EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN to buy an outrageously overpriced corporate product FOR THEIR ENTIRE LIVES.
I remember watching the corporate shills hawking this around the time of the vote. One of them noted the polls showing that Republicans hated it and that Democrats hated it and said (I am not making this up), "This shows they must be charting a good middle course."
Good god.
The "Affordable Care Act": Orwell would be impressed with that name. Its entire purpose is to entrench the predatory, for-profit companies into our health system and ensure that not a single American, from birth to death, will be able to avoid these bloodsucking middlemen.
U.S. Health Worse Than Nearly All Other Industrialized Countries
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022339160
Big Pharma Donations to Obama Campaign
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022155847
TYT: Obama Pharma Deal (Devastating Video)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x434292
Obama's Deal (Frontline): A sobering look at the push to reform health care, revealing the realities of American politics, the power of special interest groups and the role of money in policy making.About what happened behind the scenes.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/obamasdeal/
Lobby E-Mails Show Depth of Obama Ties to Drug Industry
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014139402
Even With the Affordable Care Act, Health Insurance Coverage Remains Unaffordable for Many
http://truth-out.org/news/item/14019-even-with-the-affordable-care-act-health-insurance-coverage-remains-unaffordable-for-many
Falling through the cracks in Obamacare
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2491170
The devil, is as always, in the details.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022287017
Health Care Reformthe Charade of Regulation
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002501716
Healthcare reform may not reduce medical bankruptcies, study suggests
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4761450
It's official, folks - your for-profit health insurance company is now part of the government
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002867904
Top 10 Health Insurance Co's Profits 2007: $12.9Bn | Overhead Cost: $156Bn | Avg CEO Pay: $11.9Mn
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6349493
Obama Administration Rule Limits Aid to Families Who Cant Afford Employers Health Coverage
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022298407
Large employers will not be penalized under ACA for failing to offer coverage for dependents
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022228022
The Mandated "Bronze" Policy on The Exchange will only cover 60% of the actual Health Care Cost
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021890586
Chief Justice Roberts' vote saved the ACA.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002867911
Long-Term Care Provisions Would Be Repealed in Fiscal Cliff Bill
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022114009
" U.S. ranked near and at the bottom in almost every heath indicator. That stunned us."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022187464
We are bought and sold, by both parties now. Both colluding, corporate parties. At a certain point, we will stop circling the wagons and playing this ridiculous partisan game they have set up for us...and be honest, finally honest, about what is being done to us here.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)The whole thing about ACA is that it has nothing to do with health CARE and all to do with insurance.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Thanks.
Demeter
(85,373 posts)dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)Well done, and thanks.
dflprincess
(28,094 posts)green for victory
(591 posts)Truth cuts like a knife.
"You can fool some people some times, but you couldn't fool all the people all the time..."
Bob would be proud of you
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)All it does is deflect with nice rhetoric.
The President is not a dictator and Obama couldn't guarantee a campaign promise would be implemented 100%.
In time the ACA will fall to the wayside and we'll have single payer. Whether you credit the ACA for that and the gradual progress possible in a non-dictatorship, time will tell.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Your comment presumes that we know nothing about how these negotiations went down. For you to suggest that trashing the public option to seek deals with corporate profiteers reflects Obama's desire for single payer...Well, that's just sad.
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)And you know it.
Had we the public option premiums would've still gone up because millions of uncovered people would have to be covered, and the main objection by people replying to this thread would've remained.
Basically Obama achieved gradual a process. Not as good as promised, but better than nothing, and the eventuality will be end of the insurer monopoly. A bit slower than it happened in Canada but via a somewhat similar process. Still 25% or so of Canadian health coverage is private. Oh, and per capita health care costs in Canada have doubled in the past 30 years. So the simplistic objection by detractors here would even apply to Canada.
Big deal. Much to do about nothing. Outrage for the sake of outrage. Pepper some nice sound bytes in there, yay, forum points won.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)and mandating that every American purchase their obscenely overpriced product from birth to death is not "gradual progress."
To claim that it is, is equivalent to proclaiming that the chocolate ration has been increased.
You are perhaps one of the most skilled purveyors of what I call "Third Way blase" that I have seen on these forums ("Yawn, it would have happened anyway." "You had to know this would happen." "Big deal. If you'd been paying attention you would have known the President intended to do that." "Outrage for the sake of outrage." . However, your task of convincing Americans to yawn at a relentless parade of assaults and betrayals becomes more and more difficult as millions more of us find ourselves enraged, terrified, struggling, and impoverished at the hands of corporate Democrats who claim to be working on our behalf.
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)Politics isn't fantasy reality where people pretend certain things can happen that can't.
I've already come out and said Obama failed hard during the time period he had the Senate and House and could've passed a massive package of progressive policies. Then, when the two houses disagreed upon whether or not to stay seated, he could've unilaterally disbanded them. There's your dictator, for you. That didn't happen and wouldn't have happened because it, like many of your comments, was a fantasy scenario.
So failing to achieve a fantasy scenario, is what, exactly?
You are perhaps one of the most skilled purveyors of what I call "authoritarian discontent" because you want a dictator when you don't have one. You regularly deflect from the President and the Democrats and render them corporatists when they have to work in political realities and not fantasy land. When you're told to elect better representatives you then complain about how it's not possible because the they buy elections. Then we say that you should protest them you complain about how the media doesn't cover the protests.
The reality is that we get the representatives we deserve. The reality is that in democracy progress is extremely gradual. The reality is that your bemoaning on these forums serves little to actually speed up that progress. If anything it, because of the continual moving of goal posts, appeals to political apathy and actually does more harm than good.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)It's the deliberate looting of our country and the robbery of our lives and our children's futures by corporate oligarchs. It is the betrayal and sale of human lives for profit.
This myth you keep trying to push, that this President and Democrats in Congress are simply dealing with a difficult political reality, has been demolished more times than can be counted, simply by observing their behavior and their priorities. They are not obstructed in a fight against corporatists; they are leading the charge in the looting by appointing Wall Street and corporate cronies, rigging votes to pass corporate legislation, offering up social programs on a platter, shredding civil liberties, and violently suppressing whistleblowers and peaceful protesters.
The attempted yawning is not contagious; it is offensive. The attempts to blame Americans for what is being done to them is not persuasive, but enraging.
The propaganda is no longer working.
I'm finished here, Josh, as I don't like to extensively feed this sort of blatant misrepresentation of what we have all observed, month after month and year after year. I think the exchange pretty much speaks for itself.
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)Please spare me the righteous indignation as the government you elected robs the rest of the world blind while having the largest military on the planet.
You aren't finished here, and it'll be interesting if we actually get a real progressive next time (not like Obama who was decidedly not progressive), and it'll be interesting to see how much they can actually get done without a Congress.
Either way the demographics are one way and the right wingers are dying a slow death.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)We want publicly funded universal healthcare, and we want it now.
Crush these slimy companies in the trash compactor of history and then burn them at the landfill so they can't be recycled.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)I think there was a post here a while back, in which people were posting the percentage by which their rates were hiked. The numbers were disgusting.
This post by Egalitarian Thug, reminding us how and under what circumstances the cap on premiums was raised, is very important, I think: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2558202
People are angry, but I also suspect that a lot of people did not pay close attention to the process and would benefit from a reminder of how *deliberate* and corrupt the Looting by Legislation has been:
Horse with no Name
(33,958 posts):swoon:
gulliver
(13,205 posts)I'm not seeing graphs and charts in any of your posts. That would be science, "woo me."
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)It isn't that Obamacare is making the premiums go up, it is that Obamacare does nothing to stop them from rising, and in fact has established a clear goal for just how much they will.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)pnwmom
(109,024 posts)Premiums are increasing at a much slower rate than they were.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)They set the so-called cap above then current industry wide profit margins, they gave the insurance companies carte blanche to squeeze as much as the market will bear. The only reason increases have slightly slowed is because their customers are simply reaching the break-point where it becomes cheaper to eat the penalty and drop out.
Did you pay any attention at all to the debates when this was all being created? Every bit of this was predicted in excruciating detail. Did you even notice when the original 15% cap was raised to 20% after the most profitable insurance company that year reported an 18% margin?
Have you read any of the industry's reports? Have you read the actual accounts related by actual people? Did you bother to read any of the replies to Joan's diary? Have you even read the replies or watched the videos in your own thread? Even the chart used in the original diary to "prove" this irrelevancy is shamelessly skewed to reflect the initial reaction to the passage of this idiocy.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)That was just unconscionable, and people need to hear about it.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Last edited Sun Mar 24, 2013, 08:37 PM - Edit history (1)
giveaway, or the idiots that have dedicated their lives to trying to convince others that shit really does taste good.
dflprincess
(28,094 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)People are angry, but I also suspect a lot of people were not paying close attention to the process and deserve to see how *deliberate* and corrupt the Looting by Legislation has been.
joelz
(185 posts)I still don't get it in my country most of the people think all are citizens should have health care and there is no place for a private insurance company which really doesn't produce a useful good or service but in more like a parasite or a maffia type collecting protection money I seem to remember a lot of polls saying this is also what the majority of the American voters wanted so what happened to democracy?
KoKo
(84,711 posts)be RW Trolls...but, in my State ...I'm hearing stuff that makes it seem the "Transition" which might be good in the "Long Run" is having some BIG BUMPS and denying some while signing up others and it's causing some backlash. Also the FORMS to FILL OUT...it's a hardship for many who aren't as computer savvy as many of us here on DU.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)They weren't increasing at that rate BEFORE the ACA.
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)at more than 10% per year since 2000.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)I said MY rates. I probably know more about their rate of increase than you do.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)i wouldnt describe it as more 'affordable'
lexw
(804 posts)...but many of the things that have been put forth since the big recession, have been out of our reach (we're middle-class, with a house that's underwater and will probably walk away soon):
the car exchange (had to have a certain kind of vehicle).
the initial housing assistance...we are unfortunately underwater - (had to be Fannie or Freddie loans)
the 2nd housing plan - (I applied but we didn't fall under any of the categories), so we will probably walk away from the loan soon.
and I have a feeling the healthcare will not be for us eitheram hoping it doesn't raise our rates.
aka-chmeee
(1,132 posts)covered by a USW Goodyear retirees VEBA. This is the first year since 2006 that the program costs did not increase nor did the coverages decrease. Family deductables did not increase above the previous year level. I realize the administrators of this program are not profit hungry capitalists, but BCBS isn't really known as a charity either. I give props to ACA
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Instead what we got was a rush to be all bipartisan with a batch of far right wing nincompoops.
reteachinwi
(579 posts)Robert E. Moffit, a senior fellow at the conservative Heritage Foundation, said he worried that the nationwide health plans, operating under terms and conditions set by the federal government, will become the robust public option that liberals always wanted.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/health/us-to-sponsor-health-insurance-plans-nationwide.html?_r=0
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)just like polls right now unequivocally advocate protecting Social Security.
We the People are no longer the focus of our "representative" government.
We can't afford representation like the corporations can.
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)It would've taken a long time for everyone to jump on the public option in their plans.
The premium rise being partially responsible for that, mind you.
And in the end health care would've still gone up because you'd be insuring millions of people who were previously uninsured (mostly healthy young people).
No such thing as a free lunch.
BTW, it does have an option for a state option public option. The rise in premiums will compel states to adopt it over time. So it's sort of a round about way of getting it. While still lining the pockets of insurance companies, mind you.
mountain grammy
(26,666 posts)If that doesn't work, we'll get single payer, which would be my first choice.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)It would be so much easier to pay my bills if I just cancelled my insurance. You don't know how tempted I am every single month to do just that.
freedom fighter jh
(1,782 posts)Can't say how much of this the Affordable Care Act is responsible for. But the Affordable Care Act isn't making insurance any more affordable for me.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)Right now, people with preexisting conditions pay more, if they can get insurance at all.
And do you know whether you'll qualify for a subsidy? Because subsidies will keep people's payments down to 8% of income. Based on the premium you're talking about, you'd have to have a pretty high income to qualify for a subsidy.
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)I fully believe in helping those in need, but these subsidies for a mandated private insurance product are another way to transfer more public money to private corporations. We needed to reduce the influence and profit of private insurers, not expand their influence and mandate purchase of their products. Health insurance lobbyists wrote the ACA.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)But how would we have gotten there? Obama isn't a dictator. He has to work with Congress.
Once Ted Kennedy died, those options died, too. Even when he was alive, we never had 60 votes in the Senate because Lieberman was no longer a Dem. But when he died, we weren't even close.
Why do so many people blame Obama when it was Congress and Congress alone which could pass legislation? We barely got this through. Getting any Repubs to support a public option wasn't possible.
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)But he chose this fight at that time, when millions were without work, when people were being thrown out of their homes, when our military had doubled its already insane size in the preceding 8 years, when we needed to muster every bit of political capital and courage to go up against the ravages of the financial industry. He chose the healthcare fight instead. The other fights got lip-service and band-aids, while the focus of the administration went to this fight. Why? Because he had donors to think of. Because he would wage this fight as an expansion of coverage rather than as getting less money into the pockets of the corporations that were the root of the problem.
If he wanted this fight, he should have made the case for real reform, setting the context for future victories that would remove the private insurers from our pockets. He would have been aided in this battle by the skyrocketing healthcare costs. It was obvious we had to fix it. Everyone knew the current system was unsustainable.
Instead, he worked with Baucus and Wellpoint lobbyists. He guaranteed an expanded customer base for those corporations. He used subsidies (essentially money from the government given to the health insurance corporations when the people who are required to buy their too-expensive product couldn't afford it) as a way to sell his "fix", which was basically a Heritage-foundation Romney-care derivative product. In my mind, he locked us into the institutions which are the cause of the problem.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)till they were 26.
And immediately made millions of newborns able to get insurance without being excluded for preexisting conditions.
And immediately kept millions from having their insurance dropped because of developing cancer or other expensive conditions.
The other features of the law won't kick in till 2014, but that's not Obama's fault.
Holding out for a whole pie instead of half of one wouldn't have gotten us anywhere. You might be in a situation where you could afford to hold out till some perfect plan came along, but millions of Americans are already benefiting from the ACA.
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)"Holding out for a whole pie instead of half of one wouldn't have gotten us anywhere"
I say that constantly settling for right-wing so-called reform hasn't gotten us anywhere. And what you describe as half a pie, while I agree it's something, it's nowhere near half a pie, it's a few crumbs from a fundamentally rotten to the core pie that needs to be thrown away and a new pie baked.
I am not in such a situation as you describe, my health-care is about to disappear. Even when I have it, though, I hate it, my corporate-controlled healthcare is awful.
I actually don't want to fight you over this, I have no problem with you advocating for those positive things we did get out of it. But I've seen us time after time give in to what the corporations decide we can have, and the reality it's gotten us into is a nightmare. So I don't want to celebrate the ACA as a victory, in my mind it was a huge step in the wrong direction. Peace.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)My big concern, having watched this for decades, as Sen. Kennedy dedicated his life to it, is that every time we had a health care plan fail, whether it was a Democratic plan or a Republican one, the next proposal was WORSE. When Obama started all this and Kennedy was still alive, we still had a real chance for a public option. But after Kennedy died, we lost that.
At that point, if Obama just caved completely and worked to pass nothing, then it would be the nail in the coffin for any future universal plan. Politicians would have stayed away from health care proposals for decades.
That's why I think we're better off getting something out there to work with. If Republicans don't like it, they can work with us to make it better. Medicare had a lot of problems in the beginning, too, that got worked out in the first several years. I'm hoping this can happen with the ACA.
Time will tell.
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)but I do want to work harder on being kind when disagreeing.
I thought he caved by offering us the ACA. Different perspectives. I still think the exploding cost of the private system was bringing about a crisis which would have led to eliminating the profit motive from the system, which was a parasite at risk of killing its host. With the ACA, the host will be kept alive enough that the insurance corporations will be well fed indefinitely.
Medicare was not a for-profit plan written by insurance lobbyists, the ACA was, so that's not a good comparison.
And why should Republicans not like it, or why should we care? It was their plan originally. It's Dems that got screwed, our plans were kept "off the table" from the beginning.
Hopefully we can find our way to single payer eventually, that we can probably agree on. If you want the last word go for it, I've said my piece here.
subterranean
(3,427 posts)will be blamed on Obamacare.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)I don't know who is responsible, but I hate it. It's more than my rental payment, more than my car payment. I just think health insurance companies are fucking parasites that should be eliminated.
Why is our health a for-profit business?
dkf
(37,305 posts)Slowing the rate of growth is a nice thing but considering we pay so much more than the rest of the world maybe we need to think about restructuring fee for service as Howard Dean has been speaking of for ages?
This isn't working as the ACA is misnamed. It should have been called the "Access to Expensive Care Act" instead.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)They won't till 2014.
green for victory
(591 posts)One_Life_To_Give
(6,036 posts)RomneyCare was followed by price spikes. Not sure there is enough difference that everyone else won't see the same.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)pnwmom
(109,024 posts)next year.
treestar
(82,383 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)People are sick of being lied to and sold out, and then told that the chocolate ration was increased.
treestar
(82,383 posts)And that is who is online now. Still, it was unkind to point it out like that. You weren't arguing that premiums will increase, you were taunting your fellow DUer.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)and shilling to portay the entrenchment of these bloodsucking middlemen into the system as somehow a gift to the American people.
Your smearing of those who disprove the OP's absurd claims as "average shallow thinkers" doesn't exactly recommend your lectures about civility here, treestar.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)This article kind of looks like it's chosen to focus on the second derivative of price with regards to time, because that's the one that supports the case it wants to make, when arguably the first derivative is more relevant.
If you cherry-pick your derivative, you can always find one that's doing what you want.
Now, it's by no means obvious that the second derivative is the wrong measure - if you interpret first derivative as representing "conditions" then second derivative is where a change in conditions - like "the introduction of Obamacare" - would show up. So one could certainly make a case that the measure the article chooses to focus on is the right one.
But the fact that this article doesn't even discuss this, and presents its case so emphatically and confidently, makes it look more like cherry-picking for propaganda rather than open examination of all the numbers with a goal of informing.
99Forever
(14,524 posts).. you speak of?
snpsmom
(691 posts)during which their insurance provider laid the double-digit increase in premium costs at Obamacare's feet. As I am a reporter, I couldn't challenge him. It was only halfway through the presentation that the County Administrator finally asked him if the increase wasn't actually due to one catastrophic claim they had during the previous year, and inquired about the possibility of switching providers. Then she asked whether the real reason the insurers were raising premiums was that they didn't know for sure what would happen once the exchanges were up and running. The presenter was forced to admit that this was true, but the seed had already been planted. Our commissioners are not too bright. I'm just glad for this tiny drop of blue in the sea of red that is our county government.
treestar
(82,383 posts)More people insured, more money needed to pay their premiums. But they don't account for several factors. More people getting preventive treatment, saving money on later crises, fewer ER visits, which are not free but are paid for indirectly (that's the silliest part of our "system" - why not just cover the poor or pay for their care instead of paying higher prices and premiums to cover the crises?)
kentuck
(111,111 posts)Agree?
reteachinwi
(579 posts)and consulted on the ACA. Here's his take.
"After the application of tax subsidies, overall premium costs for those in the individual market will fall by 34 percent on average," Gruber wrote. "Approximately 70 percent of the individual market will experience either no change or premium decreases."
http://www.twincities.com/ci_22852543/will-health-insurance-premiums-jump-or-fall-next
gulliver
(13,205 posts)Therefore, I simply flush them, because they mean nothing. They may or may not be well intentioned, they may or may not be true. But one thing is certain. Without statistics to back them up, they are meaningless and should be ignored. We are rational here on DU, right? We don't just fall for anonymous, angry little posts from overly argumentative and dubious sources allegedly from the left.
flamingdem
(39,335 posts)markiv
(1,489 posts)not saying it was caused by it, just saying it happened
quadrature
(2,049 posts)please be as specific as you can be.
any example will be better than nothing.
thanks
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)No matter what it costs...
No matter how little it covers..
No matter the deducatable....
No matter the co-pay...
No matter how poorly they treat you...
No matter if you can afford it or not...
No matter if you don't want to buy it...
YOU HAVE TO BUY IT ANYWAY. It's the LAW. Thanks to Obamacare they can now do anything they bloody well like and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it, including witholding your business.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)And that's the point.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022557272#post39
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)wasn't that the same excuse they used for unpaid Emergency Room costs? and since Insurance is now mandated, doesn't that mean that it IS paid for?
good, God; these assholes will say anything!