OWS isn't a Relevant Movement to Change Society and May Hurt Us More then It Helps Us

[BrentWil]

Mic Check....

OWS gets a lot of love on DU. However, it isn't a relevant movement. For a movement to be relevant, it has to capture the hearts and minds of the society. A protest movement is an insurgency, in a way. It has to figure out a way to shape its message in a way that the society adopts the protesters values and political views.

Protest movements are most effective when they use civil disobedience to highlight state polices that are not just. Two key examples of this are Martin Luther King and Gandhi. Gandhi with his Satyagrah and Martin Luther King with his nonviolence, practiced one thing that OWS will never have: Discipline and leadership.

OWS claims it is a leaderless organization by own admission. And it does not have a clear set of goals. As such, it does not have the ability to enforce behavior standards on its members, as both Gandhi and King did. The recent flag burning is evidence of this. While certainly their right, it marginalizes the movement in the minds of the society. Moreover, movements need clear demands. It is not good enough to simply state that “we are the 99%” One must present a consent message to the population and that message has to have cultural relevance. OWS has neither the discipline or organization to be a relevant force in changing how our society fundamentally works.

Leadership, even flawed leadership, is the path towards change. Both King and Gandhi had flaws. However, what the did provide was someone that people perceived as having the moral authority to speak and organize their respective movements. While the OWS movement may be filled with many smart capable people with good intention, without organization and focus it will fail. Without someone coming out and condemning “flag burning”, the movement will look like “a bunch of America haters” to the very people OWS should focus their message on.

The simple message that “this level of wealth inequality is unhealthy” and educating the population on the actual level of inequality would be a start. However, to do this effectively, one has to be focused and disciplined. Moreover, one needs to find means to speak to a larger segment of American society. In sum, OWS needs leadership and discipline to do this. Without it, OWS runs the risk of hurting more then it helps. Moreover, whatever message they do have, they will be taken apart by their enemies which do have both leadership and discipline.

I hope to be proved wrong.

[mdmc]

1. depends who us is

[BrentWil]

3. The 99%. NT

[mdmc]

4. ows is the only toll in the shed

n nothing else has stood up to the one %

[brooklynite]

256. Sorry, but we have another tool...

...it's called the election process. A lot of people here are content to say "there's no difference" between Democrats and Republicans, or "the elections are all rigged". I, for one, will be working to get Darcy Burner, Elizabeth Warren, Christie Vilsack and other Democrats elected to Congress...where laws regarding bank reform, electoral reform and civil rights will have to be addressed.

[mdmc]

266. I'll be doing something locally

and dems will win big this year imho..
and so on and so on..

[mdmc]

2. ows will be good for the workers

[EFerrari]

5. The participation of hundreds of thousands of people all over the country

contradicts your premise.

Andy, by the way, King was taught non-violence by a gay conscientious objector socialist who had to be kept in the background because he might "hurt us more than he helped us".

So, no.

[BrentWil]

8. Hundreds of Thousands don't decide the direction of society.. millions do

I protest movement has to focus its message to the society, not make itself feel better by being "leaderless"

[EFerrari]

25. You really would benefit from learning about horizontal movements

and it would make your uninformed pronouncements more credible.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

13. And MLK was not without armed subgroup either...

Before people go into the overhead with that, look up "The Deacons for Defense"

[EFerrari]

22. Yep.

[Leopolds Ghost]

299. Not to mention that King explicitly played Good Cop Bad Cop with the Black Power Movement as bad cop

It was integral to his mid-60s strategy after Malcolm X reconciled his differences with the integrationists.

[TheWraith]

15. Hundreds of thousands aren't participating. Hundreds are.

Hundreds of people don't change the direction of a country of millions.

[EFerrari]

24. You couldn't be more wrong, as per usual.

[Bonobo]

43. Hundreds. Are you intentionally sounding stupid?

That assertion is so easily proven wrong that you have to wonder why you would say it.

[randome]

115. Then feel free to prove that.

[Bonobo]

224. Wait, so you agree that the OWS 99% movement is made up of only "hundreds" of people?

I won't waste my time arguing with someone that thinks that.

[2pooped2pop]

57. it already has

so all claims saying it is dead or not effective is total bull fucking shit.

If OWS decided to disband and stop all activity today, they will still have changed the country in a positive way.

You are starting to sound like the faux news of the DU OWS. Making shit up. ONly hundreds, really? Hundreds?

you very funny to me.

[CBHagman]

182. What specific changes can you point to?

Has, for instance, the buying power of a working class American improved? Do CEOs in large numbers forgo bonuses?

Has the Occupy movement specifically gotten someone elected to a local office? Statewide office? Nationwide office?

How about the affordability of home ownership? Rent? And has the minimum wage been raised? Can you point to a specific piece of legislation that has been passed and signed into law as a result of the Occupy movement?

How about public opinion? Are the Occupy movement's favorables growing, or are there signs that the locals (in the areas where Occupy conducts long-term protests) are growing tired of them?

[nadinbrzezinski]

223. Did we have elections and I missed them?

And you missed the SOTU I guess.

[CBHagman]

269. That's a nonanswer. I asked what the Occupy movement had accomplished.

The president's State of the Union reflected themes he has sounded well before now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

285. No dear

The turn from austerity talk to populism can be traced directly to occupy. Media Matters actually ran them numbers. It is a hard fact.

Have a good day.

[CBHagman]

302. Over the years the president has frequently addressed inequality, income gaps, etc.

Address to Congress, February 24th, 2009:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-of-President-Barack-Obama-Address-to-Joint-Session-of-Congress/

...we have lived through an era where too often, short-term gains were prized over long-term prosperity; where we failed to look beyond the next payment, the next quarter, or the next election. A surplus became an excuse to transfer wealth to the wealthy instead of an opportunity to invest in our future. Regulations were gutted for the sake of a quick profit at the expense of a healthy market.

From the 2010 State of the Union:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/remarks-president-state-union-address

But the devastation remains. One in 10 Americans still cannot find work. Many businesses have shuttered. Home values have declined. Small towns and rural communities have been hit especially hard. And for those who'd already known poverty, life has become that much harder.

This recession has also compounded the burdens that America's families have been dealing with for decades –- the burden of working harder and longer for less; of being unable to save enough to retire or help kids with college.

So I know the anxieties that are out there right now. They're not new.

From the 2011 State of the Union:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/01/25/remarks-president-state-union-address

To put us on solid ground, we should also find a bipartisan solution to strengthen Social Security for future generations. We must do it without putting at risk current retirees, the most vulnerable, or people with disabilities; without slashing benefits for future generations; and without subjecting Americans’ guaranteed retirement income to the whims of the stock market.

And if we truly care about our deficit, we simply can’t afford a permanent extension of the tax cuts for the wealthiest 2 percent of Americans. Before we take money away from our schools or scholarships away from our students, we should ask millionaires to give up their tax break. It’s not a matter of punishing their success. It’s about promoting America’s success.

As for the Occupy movement, the protests specifically in that category date to September of last year. See the following two timelines:

Slate:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/features/2011/occupy_wall_street/what_is_ows_a_complete_timeline.html

The Week:

http://theweek.com/article/index/220100/occupy-wall-street-a-protest-timeline

[nadinbrzezinski]

305. Nice try dear

But it is a hard fact.. Has all to do with media...but nice try.

The focus can and is traced directly to occupy...points for trying though. And even the Pubbies are adopting some of the language.

At this point willful on your part.

[EOTE]

135. How nice it is to get updates from Fox News right at DU.

It's a very valuable service that you provide. For Republicans, that is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

216. If you added IN SAN DIEGO

Or in LA you'd have a smidgen of a point, for the core that is.

[MNBrewer]

247. Typical one-post, shit-stirring, conserva-post

a pattern

[SwampG8r]

290. surprised there hasnt been a swarm from

all the like thinking folks

[donheld]

263. There are hundreds in Denver alone.

[jberryhill]

16. 200,000 turn up for a NASCAR race

[EFerrari]

26. And they are arguably not participants but consumers. nt

[jberryhill]

37. They bring tents

And campers and RV's and propane stoves...

They come to occupy for the whole weekend. It's quite the gypsy camp.

[EFerrari]

255. I brought tents to the Lower River campground for a decade.

That didn't make me an activist.

lol

[Earth_First]

114. Did you really just compare OWS to NASCAR?!

[jberryhill]

187. The mention was about numbers

Keep up

[kenfrequed]

198. Context

The numbers were relating to the context of what it takes to enact or begin the path to change by a social movement.

Try and connect the dots and stop making absurd analogies.

[pintobean]

202. I thought the analogy was spot on

and humorous.

[kenfrequed]

212. Spot on what?

Treat me like I'm an idiot.

What does a gathering of Nascar enthusiasts have to do with a gathering of protestors?

Is there a desired shift in policy that the Nascar enthusiasts are seeking?

Are the Nasacar enthusiasts meeting to discuss the economy?

Do the Nascar enthusiasts have consensus based organizing within the group to assure their ability and capacity to stick it out and continue getting their message across?

Or is this just a lazy, uninformed, irrelevent analogy based on watching too much Fox and CNN and not even bothering to interract with the ideas being presented?

[pintobean]

219. I don't need to

Last edited Thu Feb 2, 2012, 07:32 PM - Edit history (1)

treat you like you're an idiot.

[jberryhill]

213. I will post what I like without orders from you, thank you

If you think 200,000 people makes a significant social movement, then the observation that 200,000 people show up to watch a NASCAR race is a useful indicator of how insignificant 200,000 people can be.

[kenfrequed]

214. Ridiculous analogy continued

Usually less then half of those elligable to vote actually show up. More people go to the movies every year, so elections are not relevent.

More people go to football games every year than to protests, so no protest is relevent.

Six or seven billlion people are breathing every day so any number that is not comparable to that obviously doesn't matter.

Your analogies are absurd.

[leftynyc]

45. Hundreds of thousands? Big fucking deal

In a country of over 300 million, that's like a spec. If you think burning the flag is the way to reach people, you're sadly mistaken. All it does is further marginalize a group that a lot more than a few hundreds of thousands of people think is a joke. The message of the movement has been picked up but don't expect any responsible politician or leader to want to associate themselves with the movement. If that was the way you hoped it turned out, congratulations.

[2pooped2pop]

58. back to the flag again, Really?

get over it. It will happen again. ANother made in China flag will step up to take it's place. Have no worries. It's all ok.

[CTyankee]

82. You are right. this needs to be put in perspective. The anti-Vietnam War movement, IIRC, had its own

flag burners but in the end we got out of Vietnam.

Secondly, if nothing else, OWS has effectively injected the concept of the 99% and the 1% into the political bloodstream. Before OWS, that was not a clear rallying point.

I find it fascinating that a bunch of "nobodies" was able to challenge one of the richest and most powerful men in this country, Mike Bloomberg, and force him to back down. Impressive!

However, being that it is winter, we will have to wait for spring weather to determine where OWS will go.

But like I said, if the new political language OWS has created is its only contribution, that will be an important, even historic, event in American political discourse and policymaking. OWS has given voice to a critical turning point...and that ain't nothing...

[2pooped2pop]

83. nicely said CTyankee n/t

[CTyankee]

121. thanks. And might I add to that, look where the pissed off citizens of Wisconsin have gone

by being pains in the governor's butt! They have collected more than 1 million recall signatures. And yet it was only a year ago when they were called all sorts of names (after they were ignored by the MSM) and sneered at for their resolute stand against their treasonous governor!

all the handwringing here about burning the flag is counterproductive....

[2pooped2pop]

127. well

I guess we could consider all the hand wringing as insight into what the republicans are thinking. Gives us a tactical advantage by always having the right wing equivalent heard over here. We don't have to venture onto crap sites to see what is being said.

[Kellerfeller]

125. And that movement had one clear message (nt)

[CTyankee]

147. and so does OWS: the 99% and the 1%.

Income inequality. And yes, there are companion issues to that, but they are weaving a narrative that is easily understood by those willing to understand. Not so much by those unwilling...

[Kellerfeller]

155. The Civil Rights movement

wanted equal rights under law. So a specific law making it illegal to discriminate based on race was passed.

The only way to solve income inequality by law is to dictate everyone's income by law. Do you really think most American's would support that?

If you think you can write a reasonable law (like the Civil Rights Act) that solves the inequality problem and would be palatable to those outside the fringe, please present your idea to OWS as well as our Dems in Congress (and us here at DU!).

[CTyankee]

177. Well, you've arrived at the answer yourself!

Income inequality has a variety of component parts that make it up. The contribution of OWS is to focus on the parts of that whole. And there are more and better ways to solve it than by coming up with dictating everyone's income by law (which isn't OWS's aim anyway). It's just harder. After all, the Civil Rights movement didn't start with Dr. King. Plenty of earlier leaders went to their graves without seeing its fruition. And Susan B. Anthony died before women got the vote.

We can start examining those parts one by one. Is it easy? Nope. This is going to take some political heavy lifting but somebody's got to start it. OWS has done that and IMO the process has begun.

The Citizens United decision must be mitigated or undone. Wall Street needs more and better regulation. The corruption of our Congress must be attacked. The rights of union members must be strengthened and protected (and hopefully helped to grow). All of these issues are parts of the problem of Income Inequality!

I wish there was a way that we who support OWS could make this easier for you and all of us. But I guess if it were easy and simple it would have already been done. We have to start somewhere. As we used to say back in the 60s, "you're either part of the solution or..."

[Kellerfeller]

183. Wouldn't it make more sense

to come up with a rough draft that the group could critique and improve BEFORE spending months camping out and clashing with the cops?

After all of this time and friction, I certainly haven't even seen this rough draft.

[CTyankee]

191. "One manifesto, and make it snappy!"

(ok, I'm sorry, that was snarky I admit...)

I think the deal is this: we have been forced to look at the complexity of Income Inequality. Have you noticed how people are talking about the 99% and the 1% that was never mentioned before last September when OWS made its moves? It's in the political arena now because OWS put a face on it (or at least no one had framed it that way before). It's the focus of the next election for POTUS. It is the paradigm of the biggest problem facing our country today. It has propelled people like Elizabeth Warren to reclaim Ted Kennedy's seat (and place in progressive Democratic policies).

Polls show that Americans by far want the focus of our leaders to be on Income Inequality rather than the federal deficit, no matter how many times the Right Wing tries to re-frame the issue. Americans want a fairer tax code. They want the rich to pay their fair share. One straight up piece of legislation will not cut it. It has to be addressed in myriad venues.

I truly believe that OWS was inevitable and good can come out of it.

[Kellerfeller]

193. Sorry, but talk doesn't mean a lot to me.

It's like a beauty pageant contestant saying she wants world peace. Great. So, how would you make that happen?

I regularly see people in the area I work come up with great, yet unrealizable ideas. Until there is an actual plan that can be implemented, even if it is a draft, then it is pretty much worthless.

Seriously, why hasn't one of these thousands of people been able to come up with ANYTHING that is realistic and implementable?

[CTyankee]

196. The "plan" is in the numerous things that have already been started.

E. Warren running for Senate where her vote and her voice will matter, the NY State AG indicting wall street criminals, the recent legislation on Senators and their investments, the new Consumer protection agency that at last has a head and is starting to work. I, for one, see it in what is happening that hasn't happened before. OWS has done much to be the driving force to focus the country on this one issue.

[Kellerfeller]

275. THAT is is legitimate claim

Assuming

A) Warren would not have run otherwise
B) the NY AG actually pursues it with vigor (I'm skeptical)

But even with those two, does it do much to advance income equality? I think OWS members could do more to actually advance the specific tiers of their agenda. If there were any easy ideas, i would write them up myself!

[a simple pattern]

248. I know, you would think there would be signs like

"Reinstate Glass-Steagall" or "Tax the Rich"

[CTyankee]

271. Just this morning Mika B. described Mitt as "part of the 1%."

If she or anyone would have used the term "1%" a year ago, they wouldn't have been understood. But now it is instantly recognized and understood and USED!

Use of the terms 1% and 99% is now part of the national discourse as a result of OWS. And everybody knows what it means.

[Kellerfeller]

274. I can make a sign that says

"Extraterrestrial Aliens exist" or "World peace now!"

And yet that sign does absolutely nothing to make either of those statements (or demands) come to fruition.

[BrentWil]

231. Extreme Income inequality is a great issue to focus on...

However, that is not the sole focus of OWS

[CTyankee]

232. Please tell us what you think that is.

[BrentWil]

237. This

[link:|

[CTyankee]

234. it is probably at the core of their issue. what do YOU think their great issue is?

[BrentWil]

238. I think that majority of people in the movement would agree...

They need leadership and focus on that.

[CTyankee]

240. No, their greater work has probably already been done. It got YOU to think, didn't it?

You are on this thread because OWS got you to think about the situation facing our country today.

[BrentWil]

288. No, actually I was thinking about income inequality long before OWS NT

[nadinbrzezinski]

287. No actually, they would not

It will take a few words to explain why. You really are curious, see my sig.

[BrentWil]

289. Then what is the core issue?

That is certainly the most effective issue to the American public.

[nadinbrzezinski]

304. Once again

Citizens united

Bank malfeasance (that's a few, ranging from student loans to they got bailed out we got left out)

Single payor healthcare, aka Medicare for all

Top concern, citizens united...citizens united...citizens united.

This has been posted here many, many, many times. Feigning ignorance at this point is like NBC San Diego, two blocks from civic center, aka freedom plaza, and they still can't tell...at this point I need to conclude it is willful.

[kenfrequed]

201. Uhm

How long was the civil rights movement by the way?

How many decades was the struggle. How many decades is the struggle?

Are you pronouncing it dead after six months?

Are you suggesting it needs leaders or that they must have a platform ready to go already?

Please. Do yourself a favor and study the complete civil rights movement and all the stumbles and struggles between the great moments that you envision. The struggle of a social movement is a process and anyone that wants to write off OWS and the movements that will follow it now that they have put the ideas into the consciousness and the media.

The struggle will continue with or despite people who seem to exist only to snipe, trip, mock, or knife its best intentions and the hopes and idealism of those involved.

[Kellerfeller]

205. I pronounced it dead? Really?

Please provide the quote.

Does it need leaders? Well, I think so. Otherwise they have to accept any person or group who claims to be part of the group, no matter how outlandish their ideas are.

Does it need a platform? No. Well, wait. Only if they want to accomplish something. In the Civil Rights movement, they wanted specifically to end the distinction between black and white, at least under the law and in treatment of the public. Simple,. straightforward, easy to get onto paper. Harder to get the votes.

For example, they basically wanted the Civil Rights Act of 1875 (a written document/platform) implemented.

[kenfrequed]

215. How odd

I would suggest you look back to the civil war and before that. I'm pretty sure this Fredrick Douglas guy and these abolitionists were agitating long before 1875. One of our founding fathers (Franklin) came out as an abolitionist long before 1875 as well. I could be wrong though. I could recommend a few dozen books.

If you were agreeing with the OP, who was basically suggesting just this, then you were agreeing with its death and supposed irrelevence.

I for one am tired of the unending concern-troll-fest against OWS.

[Kellerfeller]

221. And the Jews were agitating against slavery from Egypt

How far do you want to go? And remember, they had a clear issue with a clear solution.

I guess when i want something i'm not willing to "agitate" for hundreds of years.

Having a proposed solution on paper and fighting to get it passed for a while makes sense. Complaining until "somebody" thinks of a viable solution just doesn't seem like a winning proposition to me.

[BrentWil]

239. Civil rights movement was long...

But it wasn't what came before wasn't successful. This success is owed to the fact the fact that a legal strategy and a nonviolence political strategy was combined and that was disciplined. Leadership does matter.

[CBHagman]

185. But the context of that was eight years of GOP administrations...

...following LBJ's term and a quarter. The antiwar movement didn't usher in a golden age of progressive policy, though, to be fair, in those days Republicans were more varied than they are nowadays (We had antiwar and pro-environment members of the GOP, for instance).

[BrentWil]

235. THe protest were not the reason we got out..

Loss of political support had little to do with the protest.

[CTyankee]

270. that is a debatable point.

I think the protests brought many parts of the issue of the war into focus. They got people's attention. They revealed a crumbling political rationale (domino theory) for the war. The protests were an integral part of a process toward withdrawing from Vietnam. The protests highlighted the difficulty of fighting such a war in the first place when we were up against people who lived there and would not stop fighting until we were thrown out, the drain of the war on other pressing needs. I'm old and lived in that era. The protests brought out people like me, a young mother scared for my little son's future. I was securely middle class and felt deeply about the movement. I don't think I would have joined to the extent that I did if it hadn't been for the movement, protests and all.

[leftynyc]

86. Yawn

I truly couldn't care less. Burn all the flags you want....have a flag burning party. Just don't be surprised when that's all people pay attention to and your message gets lost. But that seems to be okie dokie with you so whatever.

[Bluenorthwest]

99. Why do you accuse a DUer of wanting to burn flags and use all that language which

implies many flags incinerated when there was just the one? One flag, 397 false arrests. A 'flag burning party'? Seriously? You need to take that sort of a rhetorical leap to find something to say?
Most Americans will see the mass arrests and learn of the current status of OPD which is on the verge of getting placed under Federal oversight due to years of criminal actions and false arrests.
This summer, Occupy will remain and get larger, while OPD will get a sitter from DC. Judges are already citing OPD treatment of Occupy protesters as more reason to proceed against OPD. Last week, a judge warned Oakland this is their final chance. Week prior to that one, another judge ruled that OPD cops who hid their identification badges committed a serious offense when they did so. Right now, more Oakland cops are facing charges of abuse than there are Occupiers facing charges in Oakland.
So, go ahead, stand up with and for the most corrupt PD in the United States, just in time for their public humiliation.
Occupy.

[leftynyc]

141. Keep dreaming

The person I was responding to was inplying that becasue someone has a right to do something, it's a good idea to do it. That's nonsense.

I don't have to make any rhetorical leaps - the OWS movement, by not denouncing the burning flag has hurt themselves. They were already having trouble getting people in power to pay attention to them and now they've made it harder. Congrats.

[GeorgeGist]

162. Believe it or not ...

some folks think the flag represents the 1%.

[leftynyc]

179. I do believe that some people are that stupid

Why wouldn't I?

[2pooped2pop]

117. I do not actually approve of the flag burning

I would rather it not happen. I will not condemn occupiers for it though. Flag burning while making some of us wince, is a method, long used for showing displeasure in what our country is doing.

And, it is part of our rights as Americans to show our displeasure. If we had lobbyist, we could just get a meeting with those in charge and have our voices heard. But we can't buy a politician, so sometimes we do resort to attention getting acts, or acts of extreme frustration.

Further, those in Oakland, Portland and other areas of heavy handed police state tactics get extra leeway for the response. You can only get rubber bulleted, pepper sprayed, smoke and gas bombed, batoned, falsly arrested and made to deficate on onesself so many times til you find it hard to "love the police" (I say "love the police" because I recall one protester calling to the police in this way, as he was getting shitbombed.)

And again, I have witnessed the powers that be wipe their asses on that same flag for the last 12 years (and more of course). So one frustrated flag burning is really a non issue.

[leftynyc]

142. It's a non-issue to you

And to me for that matter (I couldn't care less). Bad optics, bad strategy for a group trying to get a message across. Why turn off so many people with a stunt like burning the flag?

[L0oniX]

174. So now it's a "strategy for a group". I thought it was a few people not the whole OWS.

[leftynyc]

178. If you think you're helping OWS

by parsing, knock yourself out. If it was something the whole did not agree with, they should have denounced it immediately. They haven't and now they are further marginalized. Great job.

[L0oniX]

181. So you blame the whole group for what a few did because they didn't control it.

You are obviously not on the side of OWS. Good luck with your attacks but then maybe you are one of the 1% and in that case I would wonder why you'd be wasting time here. Thanks for all your help and thanks for coming up with something that works better than OWS.

[leftynyc]

188. I am not blaming anyone for anything

Burning the flag is our right as Americans. And I'll thank you for not putting words in my mouth (like so many here feel free to do). Yes, I am one of the 1% but that has never stopped me from being a liberal Democrat. If you think you're helping the cause by pissing people off, do knock yourself out. It's stunts like this that get people to forget the message as well as the police brutality and focus on the garbage and you'll continue to think you're helping. Great job. You should be proud of yourself.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

259. You're one of the 1%?

Now *that's* fucking funny.

[leftynyc]

265. Glad I could make you laugh

That you don't believe me is not my problem. But for some reason I'm picturing a 4 year old with his/her hands on their hips saying "are not". So thanks for returning the laughter.

[SwampG8r]

292. if true

how hilarious
he is telling occupy how to protest himself and be better at it
what a load

[SammyWinstonJack]

102. +1000. Some here are like a dog with a bone wrt this flag burning by some

alledged OWS protesters.

[L0oniX]

172. "made in China flag" LMFAO

[SwampG8r]

291. you know who spends a lot of time going on

about the flag?
conservatives
all my life i have heard them say just these same things

[Solomon]

225. LOL. Your post here proves the op's point.

They were right to keep Rustin Bayard in the background. That's organization and discipline.

[EFerrari]

229. Um, the man's name was Bayard Rustin.

And no, my post shows that the OP hasn't a clue what he's talking about.

Ignorance is not organization or discipline.

[Chan790]

241. Curious who?

Not that I doubt you in the least, I want to read about this person. That's someone that sounds like interesting reading and a source for tactics. Clearly their approach works and I want to study it.

[EFerrari]

253. His name was Bayard Rustin.

He was a genius.

There is an outstanding doc about him, "Brother Outsder". And here's something at YouTube

[Chan790]

258. Thank you! n/t

[EFerrari]

284. So much my pleasure.

The centennial of his birth is coming up this month.

[Luminous Animal]

6. The civil rights movement and the labor movement percolated

for decades before reaching a critical mass.

Go watch some more 30 second commercials.

[TheWraith]

17. The fact that you have only insults and insinuations to answer with is telling.

It's a new reiteration of the claim that anyone who points out OWS' mistakes or failings is trying to "undermine the movement." OWS is perfect and must be defended at all cost.

[Luminous Animal]

21. Boo fucking hoo.

[EFerrari]

27. You are right to protect your turf. n/t

[RZM]

104. Does that include protecting one's country from illegal immigration?

LOL. Not trying to hijack or anything. Just sayin

[EFerrari]

186. What would you be protecting the country from? Tax revenue? Just sayin.

[RZM]

190. Like I said, I'm not trying to turn this into a thread about immigration

I just wondered if you thought 'you are right to protect your turf' also applied to the border.

[2pooped2pop]

60. I don't care if OWS makes mistakes

They have already accomplished more than you and your "not for the people" public officials, in just the few short months they have existed.

Yes mistakes will be made. Yes some things will not be agreed upon by such a huge assortment of individuals. But they are out there fighting and apparently are way more effective than the public officials.

So I give them lots of leeway.

[treestar]

93. They have not accomplished anything

Not a single person elected, not a single bill passed.

[Bluenorthwest]

87. That's hilarious. Considering that so many 'Supporters' here freak out at any criticism

of administration policy and rage at us for simply refusing to agree with 'Sanctity of Newt's marriages'. We demand our equality, and the self defined 'Supporters' wail and gnash teeth, post 'the List', spew insinuations and characterizations.
I tell you this. You and others ranting that 3 or 4 protesters did something you don't like need to consider 3 or 4 people from the President's last campaign. McClurkin. Rick Warren. Caldwell. Hate mongering, anti equality speakers of the worst kind. Now, TheWraith, should I take those 3 and claim that their words and actions define the entire OFA, or all self declared 'Supporters'? McClurkin called for war on gay people, and he was official surrogate to the candidate. And McClurkin was defended here, and the candidate and the candidate's wife defended him. He says gay people try to kill children. I guess what I should do is what you are doing to Occupy, judge you, the First Family, and their entire organization using a few among thousands as sole definition of their worth?

[SwampG8r]

293. i would think the concept of

blind loyalty without regard for the outcome would be very understandable for you

[Hissyspit]

7. All of these arguments

have been answered. You just choose to ignore the answers and repeat. Nice rewrite.

[BrentWil]

9. And the movement remains non effective, after a very brief period of being effective NT

[ProgressiveProfessor]

14. I think you are a bit premature

Things have clearly moved into a different phase. There are no longer a plethora of campsites. Not clear to me where it will go from here. Not sure if it is a hiatus or time in a chrysalis.

There are certainly issues when there is no formal leadership, no consistent message, and no official spokespeople (except for those here on DU). However it clearly had an impact on people and the politics at all levels in the US.

Don't write it off until we see what comes next

[ellisonz]

20. The professor is correct.

They have certainly changed the subject of the debate to focus on income inequality, sure Mitt Romney has helped, but we ought to give credit where it is due.

Any historical judgment is premature.

[2pooped2pop]

62. non effective

they have been the most effective thing I have seen in years. What you got that has worked?

lol, not effective my ass.

[CTyankee]

85. really? we're not now talking about the 99% and the 1%? and not just us, but the candidates...

[yardwork]

91. How can anybody say that it is noneffective? Obama is leading in polls.

Of course there is no way to prove cause and effect. But there's no way to disprove it either.

[hack89]

97. An improving economy will have a much bigger impact than anything that OWS does

people want jobs and security - they don't care who fixes the problem. As the economy improves over the year, OWS will lose influence as people lose interest. Because nothing OWS is doing can be linked to an improving economy.

[yardwork]

120. Nobody can prove that OWS is not effective.

[hack89]

123. I agree. I just think the economy will have a much bigger effect

and OWS has no impact on the economy in the short term.

I would also argue that an improving economy is a brake on OWS expansion as people become less fearful.

[barbtries]

161. i would argue just the opposite.

as people become less fearful they will JOIN the movement. for justice.

[hack89]

164. Considering how apolitical the American populace is

I somehow doubt it. The Democrats will simply co-opt the OWS message and mutter soothing words and things will continue as is.

One thing I think you overestimate is just how informed the average American is. It is not a well informed or sophisticated electorate - they will accept what President Obama or the Tea Party (depending on ideology) tell them. People who post here at DU are much more aware then the typical American.

[barbtries]

176. i don't doubt it.

business as usual and the PTB are putting the hurt on too many people.

history will tell.

[SwampG8r]

294. the wailing and gnashing here against them

is because they refuse to be coopted by the democrats and so are seen by some as a threat
if they flew obama banners then they would be rabidly defended by the same people who now attack

[Angry Dragon]

10. Change starts with one person

[sabrina 1]

11. Andrew Breitbart and his buddies agree with you!

Lol, sometimes I do not know where I am anymore. I went to Breitbart's blog today and I thought I was on DU.

[2pooped2pop]

63. I think perhaps

some of the same people?

[raouldukelives]

137. +1

[cbrer]

12. Ummm... Can I borrow your crystal ball?

You may be right, but our choices to affect meaningful change are limited. i'm not willing to shitcan the country just because they own the police, and the local politico, and the army.

[2pooped2pop]

64. who is shitcanning the whole country?

republicans? Yes. That is why we occupy.

[Puzzledtraveller]

92. Was that the reason?

Because I'm confused, is Obama a republican?

[unionworks]

18. Occupy isn't yet 6 months old

Seeing some so eager to write it's obituary while it is still in the cradle is a great source of pride and delight for me.

[randome]

53. And that's the other point.

You take 'delight' in confrontation on DU. Objective opinions are not wanted.

[2pooped2pop]

66. He takes delight?

You are on every single post barking about the evils of OWS. Why? It must be delight for you or..........what?

I know, I know, you feel you must set everything right and not let those nasty occupiers have their say. Damned them for trying to save this country. Fuck them for caring about the poor and middle class. Curse them for bringing about change. Shit on them for feeding the hungry. RIdicule them for being so effective that you must must must post against them on every single thread.

[randome]

73. I have never, EVER castigated anyone with OWS for 'feeding the hungry'.

Or any other public service people want to perform. If they are so damned effective, then why are people questioning the wisdom of taking over public buildings and camping out in parks?

I know, I know, the media is against them, the politicians are against them and DU is against them. We're all part of one vast conspiracy.

[Bluenorthwest]

81. Incorrect. Look at this thread. A handful of DUers whines from the right against Occupy

The large majority here on DU support them. The handful of whiners focus on the handful of Occupiers who did something so awful that the whiners can not manage to say a word in criticism of OPD who arrested more than 400 that night, only 12 of whom were charged with a crime.
Is it really that ok with you if a corrupt PD does mass arrests of innocent people? Apparently so. Apparently nearly 400 of your fellow Americans in jail for no reason is not as important to you as a yard of cloth.
The priorities you display are chilling. An inanimate thing. 400 humans. One causes you to rant, the other fails to get your notice at all. Funny how that works. Not funny 'ha ha'. The other funny.

[randome]

105. How would YOU have stopped a large group of people from taking over a public building?

That's the task the Oakland police were assigned to do. Am I saying they over-reacted in some situations, even abused people? I'm sure they did.

But how would YOU have handled the situation differently, keeping in mind that some in the group were throwing firecrackers and shit into a heavily armed police presence, which is an invitation for someone to lose their cool and start shooting.

Arresting 400 people to stop the takeover seems like a good way to put an end to the confrontation.

Again, I'm not saying abuses didn't occur. I'm saying that OWS set up a potentially fatal confrontation for no good reason.

[Luminous Animal]

146. The 400 arrested were not attempting to take over anything.

[pintobean]

149. Yes, they were

[Luminous Animal]

184. Uh no. Most of those who were arrested were marching blocks from the Convention Center, kettled

Last edited Thu Feb 2, 2012, 05:12 PM - Edit history (2)

and then arrested.

Here is a video of the cops trapping the protesters and the YMCA opening the doors to let them escape. Only a 100 or so were able to do so before the cops secured the exits.

And the video of hundreds being arrested.

[pintobean]

200. Occupy Oakland's goal for the day

was to take over the convention center. Your videos don't dispute that. I don't know how you can say those that were arrested weren't trying to take over anything. Are you trying to say that those arrested weren't part of Occupy Oakland?

[Luminous Animal]

204. The videos ABSOLUTELY dispute that.

the vast majority of those who were arrested were not trying to take over anything. The bulk of the arrests (those around the YMCA) happened hours after the convention center action. It doesn't make any difference if the people arrested were part of Occupy Oakland. The people in the videos were doing nothing illegal.

We don't arrest an entire stadium of people in the parking lot because a fight broke out in the stands hours earlier.

[pintobean]

206. I guess, what you mean is,

at the time of their arrest, they weren't trying to take anything over, or doing anything illegal.

[Luminous Animal]

207. There is no evidence that those marching hours after the attempt to occupy the convention center

were active participants in that earlier action. And the majority of the people who were at the convention center did not attempt the break-in. Most were observing. Which, is not a crime.

That is what I am saying.

[SwampG8r]

295. dont argue with

the conservatives
they know better than we

[Luminous Animal]

297. You are the 8 ball of liberal wisdom.

[SwampG8r]

298. if you rub my belly

my leg will shake

[Luminous Animal]

300. Sometimes I really do laugh out loud.

[Capitalocracy]

303. No thanks...

Last time I rubbed a gator's belly it didn't end well for me.

[unionworks]

19. Bowie said it best

"These children that you spit on
As they try to change their world
Are immune to your consultations
They're quite aware of what they're going through"

Recced your own op? Stay classy!

[Luminous Animal]

23. + a lot

[msongs]

28. other than CHANGING THE ENTIRE POLITICAL DISCUSSION IN DC it has not changed much lol nt

[leftynyc]

46. The message has gotten through

and it's a good one with an important message but you can forget anyone of importance wanting to be associated with OWS. I hope that's good enough for you. It certainly wouldn't suprise me to find out the flag burner(s) were trying to cause trouble for the movement. If not, it was an increcdibly stupid thing to do.

[randome]

54. You're right.

Where is the ACLU, Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert, Rachel Maddow? When they mention OWS, it is in passing.

There is a reason for that.

And it's not another grand conspiracy, either.

[treestar]

94. What bills have passed?

What is the difference in the "discussion?" Even so, discussion hardly matters, it can range into anything at any time.

This claim is delusional.

[Bluenorthwest]

103. Delusional is expecting Occupy in 4 months to pass legislation when for 3 years all we

hear is 'he's only been in office 2 and a half years, you want a pony, you are expect that he can wave his magic wand and make instant change, you refuse to acknowledge the Congress who halts all progress, the GOP is why progress is so slow' and so forth.
If the President is thwarted in the Congress, why do you expect Occupy to pass legislation in 4 months from the start of the protests to now? If that is not delusional, I don't know what is. Upthread you ask why they have not elected candidates, when there have not been any elections. How would anyone elect a candidate between elections? Should they hold their own election? Is that what you think? 4 months in, prior to any elections at all, and you expect them to already pass legislation and elect candidates? How could that get done? How could anyone elect any candidate without an election?
Delusional is expecting that which is literally not possible, such as electing candidates when it is not election day.

[treestar]

109. It is hard for the President and even Congress

But at least the people we elect to those positions have the potential to pass legislation.

So concentrating on who gets into those offices makes a lot more sense than camping out somewhere and "changing the conversation."

The "conversation" always changes. But Republicans are still in Congress, and we need a Democratic Congress next time or things will not change no matter who is having what conversation.

[Bonobo]

29. But you are so wrong from the start that there is no need to read on. Here, listen.

"For a movement to be relevant, it has to capture the hearts and minds of the society."

No, no, no.

A movement that IS strong is strong because IT ITSELF is a reflection, a manifestation of the hearts and minds of society.

That is where you went wrong. Perhaps you are so used to things being packaged and sold that you have mistaken the tail for the body. But you are turned around and terribly confused.

Movements that are relevant occur spontaneously and naturally out of the environment that creates them. In that sense, they have no choice in the matter. They are created and defined by the environment into which they were born. Like a liquid, they will conform to the shape of their surroundings.

So OWS, Anonymous and others are not TRYING to sell you something. That is not what they are.

What they ARE is a reflection, a manifestation, a creature that has been created, birthed, designed by the forces of greed and inequity.

You don't need to worry about them. If it isn't THIS OWS group that succeeds or grows, it will be another one, made inevitable by the 1%.

[HangOnKids]

126. I Agree 100% Bonobo

In fact I will take the OPs premise and turn it on its head: "For a movement to be irrelevant, it has to capture the hearts and minds of the society." Like a McDonalds ad campaign. You are totally correct that OWS is not selling anything!

[cthulu2016]

134. +1

[barbtries]

163. i still want a rec this post button!

well put.

[dana_b]

197. well said!!

your last line is what should make folks rethink this whole thing, their attitudes and how they can make OWS better.

[99th_Monkey]

30. Cheer up. You have ALREADY been proven wrong, many times over.

In case you haven't noticed, EVERYthing has changed since OWS began in NYC. By that I mean, OWS has utterly changed the national conversation, about the financial meltdown, the reasons for it, and peoples ability, willingness and determination to stand up to that kind of crass exploitation and greed at the top of the food chain.

Even Mittens had to force himself to mouth the words "I support the 99%", even though everyone knows it's a flat-out lie; for the simple reason that OWS spontaneously grew a huge set of balls, made a dramatic and colorful stand, and made it stick in the collective mind of our nation. Obama has recently been using OWS rhetoric himself, which makes me smile.

What I can't figure out, is why anyone would seek to diminish and belittle OWS's incredible accomplishments, much less ignore it all together.

Oh and, we haven't even seen the American Spring yet. Please spare me of premature postmortems for OWS. This is FAR from over.

[Bonobo]

31. I think I can help you out.

But it's really just speculation -albeit on the mark I think.

"What I can't figure out, is why anyone would seek to diminish and belittle OWS's incredible accomplishments, much less ignore it all together. "

I think the reason is that if you accept the truth of what this movement is pointing out, then you must also question a lot of assumptions about one's own life, comfort level and actions in a scary way.

Simple answer is that it "rocks people's worlds" too much. It shakes too much faith. Removing the blinders sounds good unless you have sensitive eyes that water easily. Some truths are too unsettling and threatening --such as that you live in a country that is equivalent to the Titanic and the 1% are not just taking the lifeboats, they are shoving your bodies into the ocean to use as floatation devices.

[SammyWinstonJack]

116. Well said!

[socialist_n_TN]

129. That is it exactly. This is a movement that calls into question

THE ENTIRE ECONOMIC SYSTEM OF THE USA. And that's VERY threatening to some people. It challenges "capitalist realism", the POV that there's nothing else available for the rest of us, but the crumbs from the 1%'s table.

[99th_Monkey]

195. That is so true, really.

Even though my statement was somewhat rhetorical, your reply is quite illuminating, so thank you

[FrodosPet]

52. I hope OUR spring turns out better than Egypt's

I may be wrong, but it seems like they've traded one set of tyrants for another, and the Camp David accords are in jeopardy.

But the question remains - how do you get the middle 80%, the masses of people who are not really uncomfortable, or mildly uncomfortable, to sacrifice some of what they have, to benefit the people who actually ARE struggling?

Historically, that's where the strong, charismatic leaders came in. But the leaderless format, people just see an undefined mass that haphazardly points out the problems without presenting united solutions. They are not really sure who to support for elected office, or what laws and regulations should be supported.

[2pooped2pop]

69. yes, I see the words

occupy and 99% even on commercials now. It was voted the best new term or something like that. The occupier, with OWS mentioned (but not baggers), was the cover of Times person of the year,

but yet we are ineffective and downright dying.

the naysayers do seem to take their talking points from faux, I must say. They took the playbook of constantly repeating lies without remorse as well it seems.

[MFrohike]

32. There's a thought

"OWS gets a lot of love on DU. However, it isn't a relevant movement. For a movement to be relevant, it has to capture the hearts and minds of the society. A protest movement is an insurgency, in a way. It has to figure out a way to shape its message in a way that the society adopts the protesters values and political views."

Don't take this the wrong way, but this kind of political acumen couldn't get one elected dogcatcher. The truly successful social movements are successful not because they propagandize their way through the political sphere, but because they hold up a mirror to society and ask, "Is this what you really want?" I can't say that the mirror method works outside of the US, but it's been rather successful more than a few times in this country.

I quoted your first paragraph because it demonstrates a profound lack of understanding of the currents moving in America today. The purpose of a constructive, as opposed to destructive, movement is not to "win hearts and minds." It's to appeal to latent beliefs. Honestly, that first paragraph really made me think of the modern right with its semi-anonymous financial backing, "independent" think tanks, "intellectuals," spin masters, and the like. The modern right absolutely needs the Popular Front model they use, which was consciously adopted, because they are advocating the interests of a small minority. It's no wonder they'd borrow from Lenin and the boys.

"The simple message that “this level of wealth inequality is unhealthy” and educating the population on the actual level of inequality would be a start. However, to do this effectively, one has to be focused and disciplined. Moreover, one needs to find means to speak to a larger segment of American society. In sum, OWS needs leadership and discipline to do this. Without it, OWS runs the risk of hurting more then it helps. Moreover, whatever message they do have, they will be taken apart by their enemies which do have both leadership and discipline."

What do you suggest? Be specific.

[JDPriestly]

36. The OP is essentially a conservative viewpoint.

It is very fearful of anything that smells or feels or looks like real change.

The OP seems to be saying that OWS can't try to do things in a new way, that it has to copy what has been done in the past -- very conservative.

I hope that people who read this thread will agree that it conveys a very conservative message. It is not progressive or liberal.

Nuff said.

[Morning Dew]

39. Over and over again

[Bluenorthwest]

79. Count the uses of the words 'discipline' and 'leaders'

A conservative message indeed.

[hack89]

98. Self-discipline is a conservative trait? Didn't know that. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

106. I did not say that, now did I? Putting words into other's mouths IS a conservative trait.

Self discipline is an important element in any person's practice. On the other hand, an undue and outsized emphasis on 'discipline' and 'leadership' is not particularly healthy. The repetition of authoritarian language and the focus on 'discipline' is telling.
They are as sick that surfeit with too much as those who starve with nothing.

[hack89]

111. In the context of the OP discipline = self-discipline

Gandhi and his followers had the self-discipline to not answer provocation with provocation but to endure the blows as they focused on their ultimate goal.

OWS could learn a lot from Gandhi.

[MFrohike]

199. No

The OP's use of the word discipline did not imply self-discipline even remotely. From the context of his own words, discipline means staying on message as in a political campaign. That is far removed from the common idea of self-discipline. It's one thing to consistently follow an established plan, it's quite another to consistently direct oneself in the face of continual uncertainty. The OP, in plain english, called for the former and not the latter.

I would submit that you could learn about Gandhi yourself. Of particular interest might be his preference for honest violence over dishonest non-violence. I don't say this to suggest or promote violent resistance, but to highlight the attack on hypocrisy in that preference.

[hack89]

203. OK. nt

[barbtries]

165. yes i agree.

nt

[BrentWil]

242. "Real Change" normally sucks for everyone involved..

Ask the Chinese.

I am for disciplined and well thought out change. Not revolutions.

[JDPriestly]

306. Who said anything about a revolution?

Real change is gentle enough to make revolutions unnecessary. Real change is subject to change in its turn.

[randome]

55. Well, I thought you brought up a good point.

Although you didn't get an answer that addressed it.

The contention around here will be that OWS will die if it gets specific about anything. More's the pity.

[2pooped2pop]

70. Occupy has been pretty specific.

I think they even have it written out for the people who are still too dense to understand "what they want?"

[randome]

75. Then maybe you can explain what those specifics are.

You know, to those of us who appear to be 'dense'.

I don't count as 'specific' the meme that the 99% have too much control over our lives. We know that much, now how do we go about addressing it?

[2pooped2pop]

76. It's been explained to you so many times before.

I'm afraid the special ed teacher is out today. I only teach those who can learn. But you can get somebody to help you check out an occupy site, or hell just google it. I'm sure the answers are there waiting for you.

[randome]

108. A hundred OWS groups with about seventy messages.

That's not specificity. That's randomness.

[kenfrequed]

208. Randomness?

I don't think you actually understand the meaning of that word.

Your use of it implies either you cannot understand, or more likely, you don't want to understand their goals.

I honestly don't know how they couldn't be more clear. They want to get the money and the lobbying out of politics. They want the wealthiest 1% and .1% to pay their damned share. They want the banks to be regulated again and not have them gambling and speculating. Honestly you just seem to be regurgitating corporate talking points about how confused or bewildering OWS is.

[randome]

218. So the message 'Things should be better'.

More of a concept that a message. One that I wholeheartedly agree with, by the way, despite what my corporate masters tell me to say.

[barbtries]

166. hmm

the 99% are US.

[pnwest]

33. it started as a protest that no Wall Street bankers have

been prosecuted for the mortgage fraud. But the reason the movement has no one single focus, or message, is that it has blossomed into a movement that's protesting EVERYTHING. The movement has no one single message because there are as many messages as there are people.

The movement has become a consortium of sorts, a conglomeration of people protesting all the things wrong with our society, looking for a NEW idea, since all the old ones aren't working for the majority anymore. It is purposely leaderless because they prefer consensus.

And its only just begun.

[unionworks]

34. the tell tale sign

In the op is the reference to "flag burning". Anti Occupy threads have sprung up all over desperately grabbing onto the straw of the actions of 3 people. I regard the references to "flag burning" in these threads as the rattle on a rattlesnake. It is an attempt to define Occupy as "flag burners", and is typical of what I would expect from a right wing strategist. Suprising to see it on DU.

[leftynyc]

47. So you not understand

that the flag burners played right into the hands of those who want to marginalize OWS? The detractors couldn't have asked for a more effective way to condemn the entire movement and you do't see it.

[unionworks]

48. No, I'm saying

...that the attempts to discredit an entire movement based on the actions of 3 or four idiots is going to fail completely.

[leftynyc]

56. Unfortunately, I think you're wrong

Many people (probably even most people) will only see the flag burning an simply wont care about the rest of the message. And really, what is the message in burning the flag? That we can do it while so many others around the world don't have that right? What was the point? And if someone as sympathetic to the OWS message as I am has that question, do you really doubt that others wont just outright condemn the whole thing?

[kenfrequed]

211. Great!

Awesome then let us surrender the entire movement and dialouge. We can run screaming from OWS disown them and publically declare all of our candidates are against them and their unpatriotic ways. We can abandon them like Acorn (because that worked beautifully). We should all publically disown them. Maybe we can put a few of them on trial and Democrats can call out to have them thrown in jail.

Seriously do you think any of this would help? If you do, then please STOP helping the progressive cause because you are killing the message for the sake of Fox news and a ridiculously small percentage (3 out of hundreds of thousand nation-wide) of protestors that elected to burn a fricking flag.

[L0oniX]

132. So how did the flag burners get the Vietnam protests condemned???

[leftynyc]

143. Different time

When the country is drafting people into an upopular war, that's a very good time to burn a flag. This was a stupid stunt from someone seeking attention. Well, they got the attention all right - hope it was worth the message being totally ignored.

[L0oniX]

144. We are being drafted into an unpopular serfdom.

[leftynyc]

145. Good luck with the hyperbole

I suspect it'll help as much as burning the flag.

[L0oniX]

148. Good luck with your anti OWS.

[leftynyc]

152. LOL - so now

everyone who thinks burning a flag is a bad idea is anti-OWS. Such simplistic theorizing becomes you nicely.

[L0oniX]

167. Nice reframe.

[HangOnKids]

173. Your Condescendence Burns

Fire up the ignore.

[leftynyc]

180. Beats making a decent argument, I guess

Whatever.

[unionworks]

160. But...but....

The "flag burning dirty hippie meme worked against the Vietnam anti-war movement! It HAS to work against Occupy!

[L0oniX]

168. So true. It's obvious there are so called "Dems" that are happy to attack OWS.

[2pooped2pop]

72. not that surprising

provacatuers can be on social websites too.

[L0oniX]

133. It's discusting to see people who claim to be Dem attack OWS.

[JDPriestly]

35. Today, I saw a video of Mitt Romney professing that he is on the side

of the 95-99%ers. That's the leading Republican candidate for president using OWS language and trying to sound like a member of OWS.

I'd say that is a big success for a movement that is only a few months old.

[unionworks]

38. Totally agree

When Mitt loses he at least has a promising career ahead of him as a stand up comic.

[Douglas Carpenter]

40. does every opinion have to be one crazy extreme or the other!?

Last edited Thu Feb 2, 2012, 05:36 PM - Edit history (1)

On the one hand we have some folks who clearly don't know working class America at all who think that burning the America flag at OWS rallies is a good thing. But here we now have an equally ludicrous and equally extreme opinion which is now proclaiming that because the first political entity in more than a generation to successfully raise income disparity and economic injustice into the mainstream of political conversation - because this movement is not perfect it is not relevant and it might even be harmful.

My God, even Forbes Magazine is talking about income disparity. Both political parties are already adopting the language of OWS. I cannot think of another movement that has been so successful at changing the public dialog so rapidly and in its earliest stages of development. Every other movement in history, the labor movement, the civil rights movement, the anti-war movement, the gay rights movement - all of these movements had their unflattering moments. They all had plenty of extremist who probably repelled more people than they attracted. But they were all very successful because they were addressing an idea whose time had come.

No, the OWS movement is far from perfect. It has made mistakes. No doubt it will make some big mistakes in the future. It has elements that are counterproductive - like every other movement for social change in the history of the world - movements that like OWS changed the conversation and turned basic assumptions of mainstream politics upside down or perhaps rightside up. The other great movements of the past could do this in spite of all their many mistakes, in spite of having some leaders who sounded extreme. They could do this in spite of moments in which elements seemed to undermine them with language and activities that embarrassed them. They could do this and OWS can do this because they are addressing real needs that has been on the back burners of public consciousness for a long, long time and they succeeded by first moving the idea to the front burners of public consciousness and changing the public conversation.

At this stage like every other movement in its early stages OWS is more an idea than a specific list of proposals. That will come later just as specific proposals came later in every other great movement. So right now OWS is a more an idea that an agenda specific movement. But it is an idea whose time has come and there is nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come.

.

[barbtries]

170. thank you.

beautifully put. i think possibly more people will read it if you break it up into two or three paragraphs. and everyone should read it, thank you!

[Raine]

41. I don't agree nt

[malaise]

42. I guess that's why the meme has changed and we're now discussing

the gap between rich and poor.

[Bonobo]

44. According to you, who is "us". Maybe THAT is the best question. nt

[blue neen]

49. I wholeheartedly disagree.

OWS has already changed the dialogue. It's the 1% versus the 99%.

[Earth_First]

65. +100 n/t

[2ndAmForComputers]

78. The hidden post above is harsh but factually correct.

[Broderick]

51. Pap

[Yavin4]

59. Compare OWS with The Wisc Recall Movement and the Ohio Backlash Against Kasich

The latter two are examples of strong organization, reaching out to their fellow man, and getting the masses to take back control from the corrupt and greedy.

OWS has descended into a bunch of attention seekers who love to act out in public rather than try to accomplish something significant.

[randome]

68. Excellent points!

Whereas, after 6 months, OWS is still 'changing the conversation'. More activism, not less!

[socialist_n_TN]

136. So what has the recall movement really done? Last time I looked.......

Scott Walker was still governor, the WI legislature was still in Republican hands and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, all of those anti worker laws that were passed WERE STILL ON THE BOOKS. And that WI movement is at least 6 months older than the Occupy movement. So what exactly has the "Recall movement" changed in an entire year? This is not meant to put down the Wisconsin efforts, but if you're going to glorify the recalls and compare it to Occupy, you've got to use the same criteria for judging it.

I stress again, this is not to denigrate the WI struggle. It was an important precursor to the Occupy movement itself. It just bogged itself down in electoral politics and specificity of issues. It didn't address the OVERALL and SYSTEMIC problem like Occupy did. I consider Occupy to be the next logical step AFTER Wisconsin.

[Yavin4]

228. The Recall Movement in Ohio Over-Turned Kasich's Anti-Union Bill

The recall movement in Wisc. forced the recall elections of Republican senators and increased the Dem numbers in the senate.

Second, the recall movement is forcing Scott Walker into an election this November.

Real action. Real results.

[socialist_n_TN]

286. Yep, it did overturn the Kasich anti union bill.........

But everything that Walker put into place in Wisconsin is still in place. INCLUDING Walker. They voted out enough Republicans to make the margin closer, BUT THE STATE HOUSE IS STILL IN REPUBLICAN HANDS.

And finally, it will take a REPEAL of those laws to get them off the books. Do you really think even a Dem majority will actually REPEAL those laws? IF they can vote out Walker, vote in a Dem governor and vote in a Dem majority in BOTH state houses they MIGHT have a CHANCE to repeal those laws. But will the Koch brothers buy enough of the new Dems to stymie a repeal? Will centrist neoliberal Dems even have the balls to TRY and repeal those laws? All these questions are still pending and I'm not really hopeful. Capitalism and money has WAY too strong of a hold on the political system as it's currently formulated to offer any real change inside the system.

I guess we'll soon see about how much real change the recall efforts bring about. And why don't we see what the Occupy movement is doing NEXT year. As I said the Wisconsin uprising predated the Occupy movement by 6+ months.

[badtoworse]

61. Agree 100% As it currently operates, OWS will not accomplish anything substantive. - nt

[HughBeaumont]

67. "Us"

"Us".

That's rich.

Free trade, pro-unbridled capitalism advocates telling "US" how we should run things.

It is to facepalm.

Get back to me when you start supporting progressive economic positions.

[Starry Messenger]

90. This.

[BrentWil]

244. WHen have I supported "unbridled capitalism"

Capitalism and free trade, certainly. However, the government has an import role role to play. And governmental policy should adress this level of income and wealth inequality. We have to build a middle class and some level of wealth redistribution is needed.

[trumad]

71. Here you go...

This is for you.

[SammyWinstonJack]

118. heheheh

[nadinbrzezinski]

220. Oohh pretty

[stevenleser]

74. OWS has already done enough to refute this OP

If OWS packed up and ended tomorrow, it already has done a lot to help the country. There isnt any prominent politician that has been able to operate without addressing the point of view of OWS.

I, for one, am very curious where it goes from here. There is no question that being leaderless presents some challenges. I am interested to see if they can either overcome those limitations or morph into a structure that includes some kind of leadership group.

[Broderick]

89. OWS changed the narrative

I think once winter passes, it will refire like it did when it started.

[hack89]

100. Do you think the Tea Party took the winter off?

this is a serious fight against serious enemies. "The revolution is on hold because it is too cold" is not an inspiring motto.

[Broderick]

107. The tea party changed the narrative for awhile, but that has drifted into obscurity imo

OWS changed the current narrative and is continuing to control the dialogue in many ways. It does need to be more focused in the grievances it addresses, but on the main mission it seems to be making an impact. I think as weather affords, it will be stronger.

[hack89]

113. Believe that if you wish.

underestimating your political enemies is never a smart thing.

There are many places in America where OWS has made no inroads whatsoever. They are not going to win by concentrating on east and west coast urban areas and Congress. Without a ground game in every state they are just another group fighting for political power.

[CTyankee]

243. No they are in many places, as you must know. It's in the public discourse now, like it or not...

yes, the brain dead won't get it but we're talking now about the younger generation and they are pissed. they know there is no income equality. they are looking at a brick wall.

why are you surprised? young people, in debt and not getting jobs and no future. That doesn't quite ring a bell with you?

[hack89]

257. The Tea Party is in the public discourse too - the war has not been won yet.

there are many groups that are suffering - the young do not have a monopoly on misery. And since they are the least likely to vote, they are the least influential. At the end of the day all that matters is what happens in the voter's booth.

Dismissing people who disagree with you as "brain dead" may not be the best way to make friends and influence people.

[CTyankee]

272. Unfortunately, there will always be some in the American populace who are, for one reason or

another, apathetic and essentially not listening or paying attention to what is going on. They may have a brooding sense of unease about theiir own situation, however, and perhaps some of these people can have their eyes opened. Then there are those who have a personal agenda that simply refuse to accept any new information that may change that agenda. My hope is that more hearts and minds have been won over but we here at DU can't expect everyone to keep an open mind. I wish it were different...

[hack89]

280. And since those closed minded people have amassed significant political power

they can't be dismissed in a casual manner. OWS is not the only game in town - that's all I am saying. The outcome you want is not guaranteed.

[CTyankee]

281. Of course. NOthing is guaranteed.

but you sure can't win if you don't try in the first place!

[Bluenorthwest]

77. You can relax as you are already wrong. Toweringly so.

I like your pontifications on what 'one' must do and how it is all discipline and 'leaders'. Did you know that the word 'leader' is not in our Constitution? Do you know there is a great reason for that?
The staid old guard in DC spends millions and millions to try to alter the political discourse in this country, they usually fail to do so, the millions are wasted payments to 'consultants' and 'disciplined leaders' who can not accomplish in a year what Occupy has done in a few short months. The 'consultants' get large staff, millions to spend on media, and access to the crony networks and still they fail to do what Occupy does again and again.
A few on DU are freaked out that a few protesters in Oakland torched a flag. Why mercy me! Such a thing is unheard of!
The night that precious cloth was set on fire, OPD arrested more than 400 people only 12 of whom were charged with any crime. So, there were 397 false arrests, 1 flag destroyed. Why are you, OP, not outraged at mass arrests of those who committed no crime?
OPD is 9 years late making court ordered policy changes that were demanded after a corruption scandal which included innocent people framed and imprisoned. OPD has not made the changes. Last week, a judge told OPD they will soon get placed under Federal control and warned the mayor this is imminent, as that is what the settlement 9 years ago requires if OPD does not comply and they did not comply.
So come Summer, OPD will get Federal oversight and Occupy will thrive larger than during the fall.
So all that 'leadership and discipline' at OPD is failing them, failing the people, doing do good. Crappy, corrupt and hapless 'leaders' are worse than enemies in many cases.
So in closing, you look at nearly 400 false arrests and say nothing, you look at one handful of protesters doing an extreme action which harms no person, and you rage on and condemn the protesters, not just the handful, then entire world wide movement. I do not see the consistency nor any ethics in your priorities and rhetoric.

[SammyWinstonJack]

119. Again

[L0oniX]

131. +1

[pa28]

210. Very well said.

The concern police have been wrong about OWS from the beginning and they are wrong again.

[limpyhobbler]

80. It already has been a success. And it's only 4 months old.

[aka-chmeee]

84. If it so happens,

Than and only Than will I believe it.

[ProSense]

88. Here

"OWS gets a lot of love on DU. However, it isn't a relevant movement."

...a couple of good reads.

Why SEIU Is Thankful For Occupy Wall Street
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/11/24/1039632/--Why-SEIU-Is-Thankful-For-Occupy-Wall-Street


NEVER AGAIN Say OWS Is Failing: AG Schneiderman Credits OWS for Renewed Pursuit of Bankers (updated)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002245744

[greytdemocrat]

95. "I hope to be proved wrong. "

You won't be.

[SomethingFishy]

96. They are so irrelevant you had to write a post about them...

They are so irrelevant they are never on the news, no one is ever talking about them, they are totally ignored.


Whether or not they are productive is debatable but whatever you feel about them they are relevant

[pintobean]

101. Yes, they are relevant.

To how many, and why, is also relevant. Our little corner of the internet isn't America.

[randome]

112. They rarely ARE in the news.

Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert, Rachel Maddow. When they mention OWS at all, it's in passing. There is a reason for that. With a hundred OWS groups sending seventy different messages, the purpose is diluted.

It isn't a conspiracy, it's a lack of framing, leadership and messaging skills.

I would love for OWS to evolve into something more productive than 'changing the conversation'.

[MadrasT]

124. Occupy Philadelphia alone seems to have 70 different messages...

...many of which are different from Occupy Atlanta's messages and Occupy Boston's messages. (Those are the three Occupy groups I have followed most closely.)

(Actually, Philadelphia has at least 2 different competing Occupy groups with completely different agendas, each group totally ostracizes the other, and one group seems to spend almost all of its meeting time arguing about "process" and "privilege".)

[aquart]

158. Thank you for your concern.

It shall be valued as it deserves.

[Jennicut]

110. OWS seems to have some problems with lack of leadership but it is very relevant.

Extremely relevant. Conservatives talk about the movement, therefore it must be doing something to scare them.

[joeybee12]

122. Yup, all successful protest groups were HUGE HITS OVERNIGHT

Let's see, a few months into OWS and while it's still growing and coming into being you have declared it's of no use...Unrec.

[T S Justly]

128. Thank you! For another way of saying Occupy scares the hell out of one percenters. (nt) (nr)

[L0oniX]

130. Mitt is actually helping OWS. I make it a point to say this to most people ....

...especially repukes. "Hey I really want Mitt for prez because he's just like me and he's part of the 99%. Yep ...I have a Swiss bank account too. I want rich people to rule over me because I am rich too. I'm sure Mitt would jump right in with me when I help feed the homeless. If everyone in the gov were more like rich Mitt everything would be just dandy ...hrmmm oh yea I guess most people in gov are already rich ...O well ...rich people give us jobs ...you know ...and Mitt will have a job too".

Then I ask them if they really want to vote for a rich guy from the 1% group.

[Rex]

138. Give it time.

I can't believe all the pearl clutching over OWS...by people that say it doesn't matter and has no real impact on society. Really? Then why all the clutching of pearls?

Arf, arf...it never gets old.

[jillan]

139. It already has changed the political discussion in this country ~ Hellooooo???????

[Matariki]

140. oh yay. psyops.

"I hope to be proved wrong".

I'm sure you do.

[hootinholler]

150. !

Pretty fucking obvious ain't it?

Isn't even good psy-ops I expect much better quality for my tax dollars.

[Matariki]

189. lol

"I expect much better quality for my tax dollars." - I guess what's lacking in quality is being made up for in quantity, lol.

[Marrah_G]

151. They have already made a difference

They have gotten people talking and thinking about the vast income inequality in this country. I think as the weather heats back up there will be a renewal in numbers and places being occupied, especially as we head towards the elections.

[fascisthunter]

153. HAHAHA... Fear

I love it! OWS ihas been so successful, a bunch of well-to-do goobers who lean to the right on everything on this site make an effort to shit on it. You folks just ain't smart!

[backscatter712]

154. Everybody all together now...

YOUR CONCERN IS NOTED!

[barbtries]

156. OWS has captured my heart and mind.

every journey begins with one step. give it time.

[aquart]

157. Thank you for your concern.

[JackRiddler]

159. I, sir, do not belong to whatever you think is "us."

[Blue_In_AK]

169. ...

[/IMG]

[GeorgeGist]

171. I think the flag burning has revealed ...

that there is great confusion as to who the American flag really represents. Clearly it isn't OWS.

[TBF]

175. Typical status quo BS. nt

[tabasco]

192. Flamebait.

If it's irrelevant, why are you posting about it?

Oh yeah, flamebait and shit-stirring.

[BeHereNow]

194. +1 gazillion and furthermore-

Over time on DU, Iv'e learned to read these threads while ROTFLMAO...
You must admit, they are entertaining!

[nadinbrzezinski]

217. Brent I coud have used this post of yours

And changed the social movement in question. This has been said before about every social justice movement in the us.

When the dust settles...you might realize the effect they have yet to have...I mean they have already affected a SOTU, and yes national policies. For an insignificant movement they are doing smashingly well.

[Kaleko]

222. Looks like you got a resounding thrashing

for this latest effort at crowd control.

That's good to see on a site that has lost way too many of its most insightful posters.

[unionworks]

226. Wow over 400 replies

Pretty damn good for an IRRELEVANT MOVEMENT!

[pintobean]

230. What thread are you referring to?

[unionworks]

245. I'm sorry

Only over 200 replies and still going. I must have been looking at the views number... still impressive for an "Irrelevant" movement... now if you'll excuse me, I try to avoid beans when possible. They have a certain... effect.... on me...

[fascisthunter]

277. Haha... DUzy!

[Zalatix]

227. Ummmm perhaps you are talking about OWS on another planet?

Because the OWS on Terra Firma has been QUITE EFFECTIVE in changing the entire national dialog on the economy.

OWS has already achieved what you say they can't.

[marmar]

233. "I hope to be proved wrong."

In time, you will.

[morningfog]

236. See here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002259602

Successes like this have been replicated all over the country. Occupy has not only changed the dialogue, they have made real and tangible changes.

[unionworks]

246. For the real message

...of this op, all you need to read is the last sentence. Very carefully. Do that and you'll see what I mean.

[unionworks]

251. opps! my mistake

I meant the last sentence before the "I hope I'm proven wrong" disclaimer. The one about Occupys enemies having strong leadership that will destroy the movement. That pretty much sums it up. "WOOOOOOOOOO"! I'm SCARED!

[bluestate10]

249. Most on DU claiming to want a more progressive society.

Have no clue of how to get there. Their method is to support diverters like Ralph Nader, then run shitlessly supporting a centrist after seven terrible years of conservative waste. During the meantime, they disparage thinkers that say make and sustain progressive progress each year.

[Bonobo]

250. Agreed, scared shitless of things getting worse, they vote for incrementally more conservative

politicians who serve their corporate masters under the brand name "Democrat".

[fascisthunter]

278. well done!

[eridani]

252. How silly of us to think that Republicans using OWS language to attack each other--

--means anything!

[Cali_Democrat]

254. Us?

Nice try.

[donheld]

260. Obviously written by someone who's only exposer to OWS is what has been in the MSM

Someone who has never been to any kind of OWS event, or General Assembly. Someone who has never really informed himself of what OWS is really about. Ignorance is not bliss

[donheld]

261. OWS is not a leaderless group. Everybody is a leader.

[donheld]

262. .

[Tx4obama]

267. I know that my opinion is in the minority, but ...

when the majority of the news being reported regarding a movement has to do with tents/campsites and conflicts with the police
the real message of the movement gets lost in all the chatter.

I said long ago that I thought that Occupy should have had spokespeople that could speak for the movement
and the people of the movement should have 'agreed upon' a set of goals put them down on paper
and they should have targeted particular entities (corporations/financial/insurance/government)
and that they should have held protest marches in the DAYTIME where ALL folks of all ages could participate in the light of day
and that is something that I still believe - I think more could have been accomplished in a shorter period of time.

If you are not a 24/7 Occupy participant/watcher
then basically the majority of what you hear about is the tents/camps, arrests, flag burning, etc - that is not the message that should be getting out to the general public.

There is nothing wrong with looking to the 'past' to see what strategies work the best and I think that 'part' of the plan was over looked.

Just my two cents

[ellisonz]

301. There's actually more tradition to this than one might think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_army

I think the media would distort the message no matter what. See the Iraq War.

I think the goal of putting a focus on income inequality has been achieved.

There's more to it than just pissing off the cops, it's just that's what makes the news.

I'm optimistic that Occupy is learning from its mistakes and becoming more nimble and dynamic.

Henry David Thoreau didn't kick and scream as he was taken to jail.

There's something to be said for tradition.

[mmonk]

268. OWS's enemies are not relevant as a movement.

They control our political system through money peddling and do not represent the people ensuring our cause will endure. This a war.

[Rex]

283. You got that right!

nt

[Generic Other]

273. Before the ink was dry on the Declaration of Independence

the naysayers started whining. And so Thomas Jefferson and the others decided to give up.

[ellisonz]

282. +1

Same thing with James Madison and the Constitution. Some people complained and so they just threw their hands up in the air and quit.

[morningfog]

276. See also here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002245744

[Spazito]

279. What a pile of crapola n/t

[SwampG8r]

296. there is an invention

called the toilet
put stuff like this there from now on

[BrentWil]

307. Is anything new going on with OWS that would make me rethink the OP

I haven't seen them in the news lately.