Packages Sealed with "Atheist" Tape Go Missing 10X More Often

[snot]

From http://io9.com/packages-sealed-with-atheist-tape-go-missing-10x-more-460984925 :

ATHEIST SHOES is a German based-company that, as its name suggests, makes comfy kicks "for people who don't believe in god(s)." The company regularly ships shoes, like the ones pictured above, to America. When it does, it seals its boxes with tape featuring the company logo, which is stylized as "ATHEIST · ATHEIST · ATHEIST" (see below). But these shipments often run into problems.

The company explains on its website that shoes shipped the U.S. often take longer than they should to arrive, or go missing altogether. "When some of our customers asked us not to use ATHEIST-branded packing tape on their shipments, we started to wonder if the delays were caused by the US Postal Service taking offence at our overt godlessness."

"So," the company writes, "we launched an experiment."

More at the link.

[FLyellowdog]

1. I've thought the same thing about mail

that uses return address labels with Liberal or Democratic icons on them.

[RKP5637]

77. I've often wondered about that in this RW stronghold here. Also, something weird happened

with my browser awhile back. When I tried to reach Democratic Underground it said something like invalid web site and switched me to their search engine on their DNS server. I switched my router to always use OpenDNS and all of the problems cleared. I don't trust the F'ers here one bit. Kansas.

[Blue_Tires]

2. Dupe, and almost certainly an attention whoring publicity stunt...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022568636#post137

[Phillip McCleod]

15. yeah just dismiss it because it's only atheists

it never ends. some believers just can't admit any atheist ever has a legitimate point, ever, or their entire weak ass worldview will crumble upon itself.

[Blue_Tires]

68. bro, you don't fucking know me

so quit assuming that you do...

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. <---- look at poor me

Being the victim and all.

While there is a real bias, in this case you were had by a marketing campaign. And that huge chip is blocking the view of the word.

It gets better, you are doing a great job al alienating fellow travelers (I don't believe you) and potential allies.

Good job bro.

[patrice]

81. BT did say "almost". We need a logic forum around here; unless a poster explicitly says "ALL x is y"

it is biased to assume that's what they are saying. People don't make that kind of mistake in logic when someone says something like, "Trees have leaves", because they understand that the statement is about only the trees that have leaves. People don't think the statement "Republicans engage in publicity stunts" means that ALL Republicans engage in publicity stunts, so it's interesting when we see that error in logic so selectively applied, whether it's to atheists, or gays, or rape victims.

Yes, people should be a little more measured in terms of the cohorts to which they are referring in their posts, but attacking them with accusations, especially without any effort to establish whether an accusation is well founded (are they in fact saying "All x is y"???), WORKS AGAINST YOUR ISSUE - NOT FOR IT and THAT, my friend, DOES set off all kinds of canaries in this particular coal mine.

[The Second Stone]

103. I'm not an atheist, but the hatred I see for atheists

leaves me at a loss for words. It is no skin off my nose if someone doesn't believe there is a God. But some of my fellow believers get weirdly and angrily worked up over it. I do not understand.

[HappyMe]

105. Yes, some of them do.

I personally don't care what people believe or don't believe.
It is a two way street though. I see just as much hate from atheists directed at religious members too.

[Curmudgeoness]

119. Thank you for noticing.

And for not being judgmental. Hate is hate, no matter who it is aimed at. Sometimes I feel as if I took a wrong turn and ended up in the middle of Freeperland.

I don't understand either.

[Ian David]

3. I know for a fact that certain mail handlers deliberately interfere with Jewish publications. n/t

[Indykatie]

6. And How Do You Know This for Certain Ian?

Is this interference limited to your own personal experience of your mail person(s) interfering with your magazines or papers? Your statement seems to infer wider interference that you have verified and not a single rogue mail person.

[Ian David]

7. I've had to deal with it as part of my job. And it's happened more than once.

And with more than one mail handler.

In fact, one dude admitted to doing it.

But, for what it's worth, there were always people within the post office as a whole that were willing to help us try and correct it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Contact the Postal Insector

That is a felony, they will prosecute. It is some serious jail time there.

[Ian David]

62. This is way in the past. And we did work with the postal inspector. But nobody went to jail.

The one Neo-Nazi guy who admitted to delaying our mailings still kept his job, but finally behaved himself most of the time, once the investigation was complete.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. Damn, they must have lacked enough evidence to

Actually prosecute in Federal Court, but you can bet one or two letters of reprimand at least

[djean111]

4. See the other thread.....

This attention-seeker uses DHL.
I am an atheist, and this claim is bullshite.
And - if the company was using the post office, the post office sorting equipment would kick out ANY tape with words, so their "test" and "analysis" are invalid because they didn't send packages with tape that had other words printed on it.

[Phillip McCleod]

16. same lame debunked arguments as the other thread too.

still doesn't explain the statistically significant number of *lost* packages, which when combined with the delay torpedoes the anti-atheist crowd who will do or say or make up any outrageous appeal to authority to make atheists wrong.

what they don't realize is they only make themselves look the fool.

[djean111]

19. I am an atheist.

And the experiment did not include packages with tape that had something other than "atheist" printed on them, so the statistical analysis was pointless.
Add in that the company uses DHL, and the fools are those who think this is anything but a marketing ploy.
Not sure how I was appealing to authority - but I am sure, as an atheist, that we are not seeing a good experiment, just a clever P.R. stunt.

[Phillip McCleod]

21. so you say but i can baldly assert the opposite and we are at an impasse.

you call it a p.r. stunt and i call them activists. point is they did research and until you have some, you don't get to make an assertion on an anon forum and call it 'fact'.

i'll take the research, faulty or not it's better than guessing.

[djean111]

26. I sorta think there are no "facts" here - just knee-jerk reactions.

But, ya know, their own website says they use DHL.
And, as a QA engineer, I would say that their experiment test plan is incomplete and faulty.
I am actually not at an impasse, because whether you agree or not doesn't change a thing.
But - I wouldn't hire them to create test cases for software. Their research has big holes in it.
But their poster is quite clever.
Do I get torpedoed even if I am an atheist?

[Phillip McCleod]

28. arguments get torpedoed in my book never people.

i think there are definitely facts here. i'm sure they ship DHL because USPS loses their packages.. why would they keep using them if they have *reason* to believe their packages are being delayed or lost?

the 'lost' factor is being conveniently ignored by some, so i'll repeat it.. if it was just delays then i'd be more skeptical but it isn't so i'm suspicious and i think with just cause. two factors are being accounted for.. delays and losses and immediately your model, plus noise, is polynomial.

no i haven't scoured the lit to verify them but the rush to dismiss them by posters with agendas was and is dismaying and annoying.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. No, they ship DHL because DHL took over Deutche Post a few years ago

You know, there is this thing called the Internet and google. You could do some research.

They use DHL because the United States postal service, for some odd reason I know, does not have a post office in Germany. The closest they come to an actual office is at a military base, where the military runs a post office for personnel and dependents. It is, for all intents and purposes, a subsidiary of the USPS and military craft carry those packets to Philadelphia, where they are turned to the USPS. Since they technically never left the US, they do not go through customs.

Try it, some research...I am sure it will hurt to find out you were had, but such is life.

[Phillip McCleod]

32. now you're bordering on conspiracy theory.

c'mon. give them some credit for actually doing the research. what you call 'research' is laughable internet googling. i know better. so does everyone else.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Care to read this domain name? It s for Deutche Post

http://www.dp-dhl.com/en.html

Better yet visit it...

Or dd the USPS open a post office in Berlin?

I would recommend you stop digging...

Oh and you are the one telling us nice stories.

I will be nice, you must be young and gullible.

By the way, I am good. I made both the Atheist Shoes Website and Deutche Post website to prove you wrong.

[Orrex]

63. This happens to me every time I try to mail an atheist to my friend in California

I've lost more atheists that way.

[hay rick]

35. Glad to see you're standing by the humping koala bears "study."

Stick to your guns. Sooner or later everyone else is just going to get tired and go home.

For innocent bystanders, the earlier thread on this subject: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022568636

[Phillip McCleod]

41. i only came back after certain voices continued to dismiss it.

dismiss it if you want but remember assertions are not facts. the anti-atheist crowd at DU has been on a fucking privilege rampage lately and yeh, some people have too much time on their hands.

fortunately for the 'side' of empirical research rather than asshatted anti-atheist bigotry, i'm one of em.

[hay rick]

45. I think you are confusing empirical research with a marketing campaign...

which is why I keep pointing out the outlandish illustrations that decorate the presentation of the "study." I did think the caveman riding a dinosaur in Alabama was a nice swipe, but the presentation as a whole leads me to believe the whole thing is tongue-in-cheek.

My personal experience in the Postal Service also makes me believe this study is bogus. Quoting myself from an earlier post:

I am particularly skeptical of the idea that, from a 178 package sample, they were able to determine that offensively taped packages were 10X as likely to be lost as plain-taped packages. This suggests that at least 11 of the 178 packages were lost. I delivered 100,000+ packages during my career and didn't receive 11 inquiries about lost packages.

You mention the postal inspectors. The inspectors used to send out packages with incorrect names or addresses as bait. The packages were marked to suggest that the contents were valuable, for example, they might say "valuable autographed baseball cards." The bait package would be sorted to the carrier who served the address (or address range if the number was incorrect). If the undeliverable parcel was not endorsed and returned, they started an investigation. Entrapment was a fact of life in the Postal Service. The suggestion that employees would discard parcels with offensive wrapping tape, and do so with impunity, is ludicrous.

I do not claim that our society does not discriminate against atheists- just that this particular alleged instance of discrimination is entirely bogus.

[muriel_volestrangler]

61. DHL is the German Post Office; once in the USA, it's the USPS handling it

Deutsche Post AG, operating under the trade name Deutsche Post DHL, is the world's largest courier company. With its headquarters in Bonn, the corporation has 467,088 employees (FTE 421,270) in more than 220 countries and territories worldwide and generated revenue of € 51.48 billion in 2010. Deutsche Post is the successor to the German mail authority Deutsche Bundespost, which was privatized in 1995.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Post_DHL

Once shipped, the progress of your order can be monitored on www.dhl.de, using the tracking number we have sent you. In our experience, detailed tracking of a package once it has arrived in some countries (e.g. Australia or the USA) is only available on the relevant domestic postal service websites (e.g. AusPost or USPS) and, in our experience, this information can take a while to become available. So it may temporarily appear that your package has stopped moving when it is still very much in transit.

http://www.atheistberlin.com/service/orders-and-shipping

'Kicking out' packages with printed words on them does not explain the loss of packages. Since packages often have many printed words on them (fragile, personal, urgent, sender's name, return addresses), I find it hard to believe that a line of words in the form of a tape would be that easy for a scanning program to confuse with an address. If you have some information on how the scanners do get confused, it would be useful. Until then, it's just speculation on your part, compared with actual facts about lost packages, and delayed ones.

[maddezmom]

70. Thanks for this

I was getting confused with some of the information posted on this thread. Looks like the company is able to track packages into the USPS offices that never make it to the customers.

[struggle4progress]

73. No. DHL transports packages with tracking to its own facilities near the final destinations, then

mails them and allows the USPS to handle the actual delivery. DHL tracking ends when the package is finally mailed through USPS and thereafter customers should track through USPS tracking, if available. See my #72

[struggle4progress]

72. Not exactly. DHL is a private company, that happens to provide German postal services. Worldwide,

DHL has adopted the following strategy: DHL itself transports packages to facilities NEAR their final destination, then injects the packages into the local postal network for delivery. This allows DHL to concentrate on long distance transport, without maintaining local fleets of delivery vehicles. DHL says that in many cases it does not actually inject a package into the local postal network until the package is in the same five digit zipcode as the destination:

... We bring your items to one of our state-of-the-art mail terminals located throughout North America ... Sophisticated sorting enables us to bypass many postal facilities before inserting your items into the mail stream ... We expedite your materials through our domestic and international mailing network, bringing them as close as possible to their destination before transferring them to local postal authorities for final delivery ... As a USPS Workshare partner, we rely on their local carriers to deliver your domestic items with the rest of the mail ...

... Our massive mail volumes allow us to sort many domestic shipments all the way to the fifth digit of the destination ZIP Code, enabling us to insert your items deeper into the USPS mail stream ...

Note that in the first graphic below, USPS only becomes involved at stage 5: the "mail termninal" at stage 3 is still a DHL facility, and the "network" at stage 4 is the DHL network


http://us.dhlglobalmail.com/expedited-mail-process-details.aspx



http://us.dhlglobalmail.com/worldwide-shipping-and-mailing-network.aspx

[muriel_volestrangler]

80. That's for packages put into the DHL system inside the USA

Those coming from outside, and thus subject to customs, could be treated in an entirely different way.

"DHL is a private company, that happens to provide German postal services" is a bit misleading; Deutsche Post is the German postal service ("Deutsche Post, Germany's only universal provider of postal services, is part of Deutsche Post DHL, the world's leading mail and logistics Group&quot , which was privatised. It bought DHL about a decade ago; if you want to send a package abroad from the German postal system (and the company graphic says they used Deutsche Post) it goes via DHL - follow the 'dispatching of parcels/small packages' link here: http://www.deutschepost.de/dpag?tab=1&skin=hi&check=yes&lang=de_EN&xmlFile=1016715 and you go to a dhl.de web page.

[struggle4progress]

85. Nope. I provided graphics from the DHL shipping pages and links to the pages. If you read the

description on this page, you'll see that the process I described includes international shipping. And the graphics on this page further clearly indicate that the process I described includes international shipping

Read the pages I linked. Look at the graphics

[muriel_volestrangler]

90. International shipping *from* the USA

Those are the DHL US pages, for items from inside the USA. The animated graphics show the international mail is outgoing. The system from the outside may be different; and the "DHL often gets it to the last digit of the zip code" is not a guarantee it does, even in domestic US posting.

Anyway, the company did tests with items sent to other countries. Only the USA had the delays and missing packages.

[struggle4progress]

106. Feel free to provide any actual evidence. I've provided any number of links by now.

Whether or not "the company did tests with items sent to other countries" is irrelevant to the shoe company's accusation regarding USPS: the company claims to have tracked the time between delivery of packages into the Deutsche Post DHL network and final delivery of the packages by the USPS, which completely misses the relevant questions surrounding the accusation, such as: How long were the various packages actually under the control of USPS

[muriel_volestrangler]

112. Again: they tested with other countries as well

and there wasn't a problem with them. The "actual evidence" was supplied by the company. Your links, again, are about the American DHL operation. Those are the irrelevant ones.

[struggle4progress]

114. LOL

[JHB]

5. The delay-makers just want to save soles

[pintobean]

8. Lol

I guess they think any lost souls will jell in hell.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. To the OP, DHL is primary shipper

SHIPPING



SHIPPING INFORMATION
We ship worldwide via DHL. All services make deliveries between 9am-5pm Monday to Friday. Please note some services may not be available in all countries. Shipping is calculated at the checkout based on the address you are shipping to:

Germany - 8 euros
EU - 12 euros
USA & Rest of the World - 17 euros

From time to time we offer promotional or trial shipping rates that may not be reflected in this table. For details on these rates, please refer to the promotional banners and communication.

http://www.atheistberlin.com/service/orders-and-shipping

Check this thread of horse flogging as well

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2568636

And extensive explanations, including the fact that USPS requires plain boxes since the machines cannot read things like Atheist Shoes or Nike or Gamesa

[Phillip McCleod]

17. in other words

'i refer you to the same debunked 2nd hand anecdote which i assert outweighs statistical analysis.'

what relentlessness. it would be admirable if the motive wasn't so very suspect.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. They are shipping through DHL

Per their own site...or is reading comprehension a problem here? As to debunked, even after you were shown this is a fracking publicity stunt, from their own fracking web site, their own shipping information...once again, read the fracking text again.

SHIPPING INFORMATION
We ship worldwide via DHL. All services make deliveries between 9am-5pm Monday to Friday. Please note some services may not be available in all countries. Shipping is calculated at the checkout based on the address you are shipping to:

Germany - 8 euros
EU - 12 euros
USA & Rest of the World - 17 euros

From time to time we offer promotional or trial shipping rates that may not be reflected in this table. For details on these rates, please refer to the promotional banners and communication.

http://www.atheistberlin.com/service/orders-and-shipping

You keep insisting this is a valid so called study? Yes, I take personal umbrage at attacking public workers, especially when these shipments are handled by a private shipper.

You were had, and can't even admit to it.

Amazing, fracking amazing.

[Phillip McCleod]

22. yeh no wonder since the USPS keeps losing their products.

i would too. duh.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. What part of primary shipper is DHL are you having a problem comprehending here

Or that they violated shipping requirements not by one, but two shippers are you still having problems comprehending. Yes dear, DHL does deliver in large swaths of Michigan State by the way dear.

You want...no you need to believe this. Well, not unlike believing in god.

Piss poor study, with even more piss poor conclusions. You were had.

Even when shown the evidence from the horses's mouth, you need to believe. For a person claiming to rely on rationality, this is not good.

[deaniac21]

111. Dhl uses USPS

Major competitors include FedEx, UPS, TOLL, TNT and national post carriers such as United States Postal Service and Royal Mail. However, DHL has a minor partnership with the USPS, which allows DHL to deliver small packages to the recipient through the USPS network. It is also the sole provider for transferring USPS mail in and out of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Google is ur fren

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. Already accounted for in last mile delivery

Also used by UPS and FedEx.

Last mile is used by these shippers to deliver to rural areas where they do not deliver, due to cost, but the USPS does, due to universal service coverage.

[struggle4progress]

74. See my #72

#72

[zappaman]

31. DHL may well be the primary shipper now....

but was it before?
In other words, did they change their shipping because of the problem with USPS?

[mathematic]

55. You're acting like USPS doesn't handle DHL deliveries in the US

Because, you know, they do.

Nor does USPS require plain boxes for anything. Stop making shit up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. First, I would like you to read the preparing packaged for shipping

Last edited Thu Mar 28, 2013, 11:57 AM - Edit history (2)

From the USPS...concentrate on the bolded section, and then try to use some logic here.

Careful preparation of your package helps to ensure safe delivery.

The Box
Choose a box with enough room for cushioning material around the contents. Sturdy paperboard or corrugated fiberboard boxes are best for weights up to 10 pounds. If you are reusing a box, totally remove or obliterate all previous labels and markings with heavy black marker.

Where to Find Boxes
You can purchase boxes and tubes of various sizes at most Post Offices. Express Mail and Priority Mail boxes are available free at the Post Office for items sent using either of these services. While you are not required to use the free packaging for these services, you must use the USPS-produced address label provided by the Post Office for Express Mail. To order Express Mail or Priority Mail boxes at no extra charge, call 1·800·222·1811 or visit www.usps.com and click on Shop.

Cushioning
Place the cushioning all around your item or items. You can use newspaper, “foam peanuts,” or shredded paper. Close and shake the box to see if you have enough cushioning. If you hear items shifting, add more cushioning.

Placing an extra address label with the delivery and return addresses inside the package will ensure that the item can be delivered in case the outside label becomes damaged or falls off.

Mailing Fragile Items
Use foamed plastic or padding to protect your items, placing the cushioning inside hollow items as well. Mark the package “Fragile” or mark “Perishable” on packages that contain food or other items that can spoil. Careful packaging is the best way to safeguard your valuable items against damage.

Mailing Heavy Items
If you are mailing a very heavy or very dense item, start with a sturdy box, pack the contents securely with a strong material for bracing to prevent shifting, and tape all the edges with reinforced tape. Packages heavier than 70 pounds cannot be mailed.

Sealing
Tape the opening of your box and reinforce all seams with 2-inch-wide tape. Use clear or brown packaging tape, reinforced packing tape, or paper tape. Do not use cord, string, twine, masking or cellophane tape. Place a strip of clear packaging tape over your label to prevent the address from smearing.

Return Address
Print or type your address in the upper left corner on the same side of the package as the delivery address.

Extra Services
Place labels for extra services above the delivery address and to the right of the return address, or to the left of the delivery address.

Postage
Use stamps, a postage meter, or a PC Postage system to affix the correct amount. You can calculate and purchase postage online at www.usps.com.

Delivery Address
Print or type the delivery address parallel to the longest side of the package. Type or print clearly with a pen so that your address is legible from an arm’s length away. Do not use commas or periods.

Confirmation Services
Labels for Delivery Confirmation or Signature Confirmation are placed to the left of the address label.

City, State, and ZIP Code
To find the correct spelling of a city name and state abbreviation or to find a ZIP Code, visit www.usps.com or call 1·800·ASK·USPS. Using the correct ZIP Code helps direct your mail more efficiently and accurately.

Drop Off
If your mail item weighs 13 ounces or less, and you have affixed correct postage, you can drop it into a blue collection box. If your item weighs more than 13 ounces, and you have affixed postage stamps, you must take it to an employee at the retail counter of a Post Office.

http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm100/preparing-packages.htm

Second, last mile delivery in rural areas is done for all major shippers, nearest the point of distribution. So to be blunt, The packages are in DHL custody for most of the route, assuming USPS does deliver last mile, which does not include major cities, or at least it should not.

So, you want a study to prove this

This is how science actually works.

You need to remove DHL from the mix, which means they need to send a few pallets to oh Philadelphia, to be shipped exclusively by the Postal service.

They also need to send one third with atheist shoes tape, another third with Grandma's Shoes tape, both in the same color and font, and finally plain packets.

And just to account for rural and urban half of each need to go to urban zip codes, and half to rural zip codes.

GPS geotag s would add to the experiment.

For the record, the atheist shoes rep pretty much backed off after he was explained experimental design and how many extra holes he had.

For the record, I suspect they will find grand ma's shoes are delayed just as long, on average...we are talking OCR software here...but that is just me. Now if they happen to find what they think, bloody contact the damn postal inspector. We are talking of serious felonies here.

For the moment I love how people who claim to be rational...are falling for a marketing scam. This is what it s, cute stereotypes and all.

[mathematic]

87. Here's an example of an acceptable not-plain box for USPS shipping

Sold from the USPS store.

Since not-plain boxes are acceptable for USPS shipping and you believe that your reading of labeling guidelines prohibits not-plain boxes I logically conclude that you are incorrectly reading USPS labeling guidelines.

In particular, a new box with atheist shoes branded brown packing tape or atheist shoes branded reinforced packing tape or atheist shoes branded paper tape would all be acceptable according to the bolded sections of your link.

As for the DHL/USPS connection, I'm glad that you acknowledge that USPS does indeed handle DHL deliveries. You're wrong about it being rural only but at least you noted that was speculation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. Sold by the USPS at the USPS station

and the OCR software IS PROGRAMED to process this box, as well as the USPS branded ones.

It is also programed to recognize FRAGILE and PERISHABLE, why it is in their own website. READ THE WHOLE THING THIS TIME, SLOWLY.

We are talking of fracking OCR software.

Regardless, you are talking of terrible "experimental" design, and accusing postal workers of a felony to boot, one that can lead to some really serious time at the Federal Penitentiary.

I must conclude at this point that you have a bias against public service employees.

And perhaps that you would rather see the USPS privatized at Darrell Issa would love to do.

If you are a mathematician then statistics should not be that hard.

Tell me, how many variables to do you need to make an experiment barely acceptable? two is not the correct answer... for the record, at a minimum you need THREE. They had TWO.

Nor did this marketing ploy account for variables such as rural, suburban and urban. The last two, are not touched, or at least should not, by the Last Mile program, FYI.

So here is how they should go about doing this experiment, if they were serious and this was NOT a marketing ploy, that you have fallen for, hook, line, sinker, all the way to the shoulder.

REMOVE DHL from the mix... send a few pallets to the US to be shipped through USPS exclusively. Why PALLETS? SIze of sample size and size of country.

1.- Have them taped with Atheist Shoes, Grandma Shoes and plain tape.

2.- Send them to zip codes that are urban, suburban and rural in equal numbers.

3.- Make sure you have equal numbers going to different regions of the country, Northeast, NorthWest, Midwest, South, SouthWest and Texas. I would include packages also going to Hawaii and Alaska, as well as the US Territories.

4.- Geotag every packet.

If you find, or rather the company finds these problems are actually statistically significant and higher for their branded shoes, bring the evidence, including geotagging data, to the Postal Inspector. they just discovered some serious felonies.

I suspect you really are having a problem, and like your friend are going, poor me, and using every fracking stereotype in the book.

Funny thing happened on the way to the forum, the Atheist Shoe guy pulled off the internet discussion after the errors in their so called study were presented. And damn it, they are slandering American Public Workers to boot. But if they actually have a case, (and they were challenged to do this) they should like not walk, RUN to the Office of the Postal Inspector.

Myself, even if they were the last shoe manufacturer in the world, I would not buy their product. I hate liars.

[zappaman]

98. "I hate liars"

I know, right?

[mathematic]

99. You have quite an imagination.

You've imagined that I have a bias against public service workers. I suppose if you were going to imagine I had something against postal employees you might as well imagine I have something against all public service workers too. (Incidentally, this is funny because I'm one of maybe a dozen people here that regularly defend the BLS).

You've imagined that I've made comments regarding the validity of the company's experiment.

You've imagined that I believe the company's claims.

Here's what I'm not imagining. You attempted to discredit the company's study by claiming it was outright fraud (shipping is via DHL) or that the company was mispackaging their product (not-plain boxes/tape). I was correcting you on those matters.

I think the company could run a more thorough experiment. That doesn't somehow discredit the experiment they did run. They claimed statistical significance. If you want to show how their results are not actually statistically significant, or rather link to somebody that does that, that would do a lot more to convince me (contingent on the content of the statistical criticism) that Atheist Shoes are a bunch of lying bastards just out to make a name for themselves on the backs of US postal employees and America's reputation for brain-dead Christian fundamentalism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. And you have quite a bias

I guess facts are these days what we call imagination.

Live in your bias, relish in it, enjoy it. That makes you biased.

You and your friend are wrong on this one, and enjoy being taken in by a brand building marketing campaign.


Have a wonderful life trying to advance the ideas and status of Atheists by supporting a company that slanders public workers, and accuses them of a FEDERAL FELONY.

The problem my dear is you, not me.


Oh and one last thing, I did not say they ship through DHL, THEY DO

SHIPPING



SHIPPING INFORMATION
We ship worldwide via DHL. All services make deliveries between 9am-5pm Monday to Friday. Please note some services may not be available in all countries. Shipping is calculated at the checkout based on the address you are shipping to:

Germany - 8 euros
EU - 12 euros
USA & Rest of the World - 17 euros

From time to time we offer promotional or trial shipping rates that may not be reflected in this table. For details on these rates, please refer to the promotional banners and communication.

http://www.atheistberlin.com/service/orders-and-shipping

[maddezmom]

100. The discussion is still up at the company website

Is there another blog or something that has pulled the discussion?

[zappaman]

108. Shhhh!!!

Poster will NOT tolerate disagreement or questioning of their erroneous statements!

[dawg]

11. I prefer shoes ...

That have no opinions of their own about the afterlife.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. They are already living in the afterlife

[RedCappedBandit]

13. Can we instead discuss how ugly and overpriced these shoes are?

[Phillip McCleod]

18. i like them.

you want ugly? ever seen those shoes with TOES!?!?

horrifying.

you want overpriced? ever seen a pair of basketball shoes?

c'mon. you're going to have to do better than that if you *really* want to slander and dismiss any concern that atheists might have, legitimate or not. if you're mind is made up why pretend that you can be swayed?

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. If you had a case in this case

And yes, they are over priced. And no, I would not buy anything from a company that lies.

And no, I am not a deist either

[Phillip McCleod]

24. they don't lie. and i don't believe you.

once again, your assertions aren't facts so please for the sake of civility stop treating them as such.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. So I made this website up

http://www.atheistberlin.com/service/orders-and-shipping

This is the home page

http://www.atheistberlin.com/atheist

Once again, you were had and can't believe, yes believe, that an atheist could lie for a marketing stunt.

[Phillip McCleod]

30. i thought you had me on ignore.

can we go back to that plz?

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Why? You hate to be shown wrong?

Really...

[Phillip McCleod]

40. 'shown wrong'?

really?

sorry but i left you so far in the dust you apparently didn't even realize how badly you were losing.

allow me to correct the record.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Really...so you will keep ignoring

They ship through DHL, by their own damn fracking site...for €17 no less.

And that the study was flawed.

And that DHL is primary shipper for world wide operations.

And that we are talkng OCR software here.

And that the USPS was the secondary shipper with last mile, and they did not meet USPS plain packaging guidelines, but when they did packages arrived nicely? Free clue, the control would be labeled packages with same font...that would be a more acceptable control. Shoes would work.

By the way last mile is used by private shippers, not just DHL, but also ups and FedEx, for rural areas. If you live in one, save yourself some quid, and time and just ship with USPS.

Now they ship using plain packages, shazam meeting USPS requirements.

But please, proceed. At this point I will assume it is the poor me, they are victimizing me act.

Trust me, you ain't impressing too many.

Those websites were given to you, including the very real fact the company uses DHL for world wide shipping by their own guidelines, or that contrary to your uninformed opinion, the USPS actually does not have an office in Berlin, or Mexico City, or Toronto for that matter.

But please, proceed...I will get a nice laugh out of this one. I expect you to cite an extremely flawed study by the way.

For a rationalist I am amazed you are not familiar with experimenter bias...this is what is going on here, in spades...or just a marketing scam.

[Phillip McCleod]

47. more words do not an effective argument make.

and you have yet to grok the fact that packages were not just delayed but lost. your argument has twisted itself into pretzels to obscure the most minor evidence that in fact, as a great deal of other evidence attests, atheists are the victims of discrimination in the u.s.

we don't act like victims though, do we? troublesome that for some.

inspiring for others.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Congratulations

See poor victim me, and let me cite a flawed study.

As expected.

I mean, it's not like they could not have been lost anywhere during the time they were under DHL custody...cause of course, it has to be American public sector workers

By the way..."those words" are otherwise known as facts.

The original OP links to a wonderful OP where the company rep could not explain the experiment design errors either. Don't partially blame him, experiment design gets real researchers every so often.

Funny thing, he stopped posting and others who were adamant like you finally got it. This was, if we are to be very kind, a very flawed experiment. They should stick to shoes, and following shipping guidelines from the shippers they use.

But hey expected your response.

Please proceed...do you want a backhoe?

[Phillip McCleod]

51. 'those words are otherwise known as facts'

what hubris.

seriously.

what utter hubris.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. So you deny the company ships through DHL?

It's on their damn website. Or you telling me they put it there to muck up with the "data?"

You really are a number. I recommend you take that chip off that shoulder.

[Phillip McCleod]

54. again, for the sake of clarity..is

what company in their right mind would continue to ship USPS when their packages mysteriously fail to reach their destination?

no doubt the data came to light during a cost-benefit analysis of shipping vendors. that's what i'd do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. For the sake of clarity

The USPS does not have an office in Berlin. Or when exactly did Germany become part of the United States? It is the United States Postal Service after all.

I know, the company put it in there to test our faith...

[zappaman]

58. Or maybe they changed to DHL after all this went down?

Could be, right?
As a journalist, I would hope you wouldn't jump to conclusions.

[struggle4progress]

75. Probably not: Deutsch Post DHL handles German mail, so the shoe company

has probably just been using a convenient service that it has been familiar with for a long time

[RedCappedBandit]

36. Um, what?

Relax, it was a lighthearted jest. I am an atheist, and am not trying to 'slander and dismiss' any concerns WE have.

By the way, Vibrams (the toe shoes) are awesome.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. In this case it is a publicity stunt

[Phillip McCleod]

43. the toe shoes are creepy.

because toes are creepy. it's an objective factoid.

look am i defensive on this subject? yeah. and why not. there's not one thread on DU with the word 'atheist' in the title that doesn't get swarmed by anti-atheists. we are the devil of the day on the left so i figure why not be defensive?

i'm the guy who always flinches and you know what? i never get hit.

this world is not kind to nonbelievers. witness it.

[Godhumor]

44. In this case, the company is fucking with you, sorry

Nothing to do with been an atheist. The company wanted publicity and they got it...a lot of it.

And I do, in fact work with statistical analysis as three primary aspect of my job. Even if their study was a real study (which it is not) there are so many problems, it should never be taken seriously.

Nothing wrong with being an atheist, but this particular fight is not a good use of energy. The company is bullshit.

[Phillip McCleod]

48. again, for the sake of clarity, an assertion is not a fact.

i'll take p-scores over anonymous internet guesses thank you.

[Godhumor]

56. You want to get statistical? Their study is bullshit

They have no control group...none. Plain tape versus atheist could just as easily be plain tape versus words on tape. Would they have delays if, say, "Berlin" was written on a third group of packages? Were custom requirements dealing with packaging followed in exactly the same way for all packages (hint: no)?

What do the p-stats show? Another hint, statistical significance on a piss poor test. With very few variables and a small sample size you can make almost anything significant. From the infographic there were three possible variables: atheist or plain, received not received, days difference in receive dates for the two packages. A whooping two of three variables are false numbers (1 or 0 to represent yes or no type variables). They are analog, no room for degrees...in a small sample, you will get a ton of false significance from using sources like this.

If this were real instead of a publicity stunt, a lot more things would be considered. Off the to of my head, time in customs, number of transfers between delivery agencies, location of customer in relation to port of entry into the US, geographic location (urban, suburban or rural), etc.

The test was to get free publicity in terms of brandrecognitionIn the processes they have slandered the USPS. The company is indefensible. This is the wrong fight.

[Phillip McCleod]

57. assertions. you've got nothing and they have something.

you wanna prove their study wrong? is it that important to you to shut down every angle of evidence, or are you really an anal professor. come off it. show me the fucking math because i'll eat your guesstimates alive.

you come in here with attitude for one reason alone. you don't want atheists to be victims. you don't want that fact to be true because we don't act like victims. we're in your face and we don't let up and that's brand new and unpleasant.

well get used to it and bring more to the game than bald, naked assertions passed off as cynical wisdom because you're not the only one who took stats 101.

LOST PACKAGES. statistical significance. you don't like the sample size? neither do i but you want do dismiss it for ulterior reasons and pass it off as math and i call THAT b.s. let's do the study again, then, dammit and fix this because we're supposed to be on the same side and all i've seen since i joined this site not that long ago is anti-atheist everything if it even has the word in it and it's getting old WTF?

atheists are victims, but we don't act like it and face it if you don't like these stats there's plenty of others to back me up and you know it. don't like the atheist shoe study? fine. how about how many states prohibit jews from holding public office? oh wait none. how many muslims? none. how many christians? none. how many atheists.

so yeah. we're victims and we don't act like it and we're not gonna start.

bring the numbers. i'm here.

[Godhumor]

64. There are no relevant numbers because it is flawed, period

You are the one making assertions that the only possible reason for this is USPS is felony tampering with mail based off a vital marketing campaign disguised as analysis.

The only, only question is does what they show prove atheist boxes are tampered with? The answer is no. Without any other work, this result can be changed to plain tape versus tape with words. Why? Because the company didn't actually test that the word printed on the tape matters.

Your willingness to turn every single reply here into a perceived attack on atheists is baffling. A lot of people, including me, are taking umbrage with the fact that the company is essentially accusing the USPS of felony tampering, right when the post office is fighting for its continued operation. Nothing to do with religion and everything to do with a dick company trying to increase business.

And I have already explained why what they have shown in their analysis had massive flaws. Nothing more to say about them except, again, they're are a lot more worthwhile places to stand up for atheist rights.

[Art_from_Ark]

123. It's a pretty stupid business concept

And most of my shoes are probably "atheist" anyway, having been made in the Officially Atheist Country of China.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. And if the study was for real, re the USPS

I would remove DHL from the mix, and ship nationally using only the post service. For the sake of argument start with Philly, where international shipping is first handled on the East Coast, the west would be San Fran.

Two tapes with writing on them, same font, same size, same color, one meeting postal regulations...

Half shipped to urban, half to rural

And that is a minimum. I would like to add suburban zip codes, and regional differences, as well as geo tagging.

But it was a marketing campaign relying on well known stereotypes.

[RedCappedBandit]

46. Can't argue with that, but..

I've read two threads on this subject so far. I'm not convinced. Is it possible that some mail carriers would fuck with a package with an atheist label? Of course. But I don't think it's been proven to be systematic in this case. As another poster pointed out, I'd like to see an additional control group with tape on the box with more neutral language. And a larger sample size, of course.


I agree wholeheartedly though. Atheists are constantly attacked, and oftentimes those attacks are not acknowledged.

I've said it before and have been ridiculed, but I do feel at times that some people are offended by our very existence as atheists, as it challenges their beliefs. Then they act accordingly, as if we have to conceal our own beliefs so as to not offend theirs.

[Phillip McCleod]

49. again, for the sake of clarity, this OP is in regards to 'lost' packages

the last one focused on delays, which i pointed out then, as well. 10X as likely to be 'lost' not delayed. lost. gone. down the rabbit hole.

that's statistically significant.

rationalize it away all you want that's what we do isn't it? shhhh. what?

on edit: by that rhetorical 'we' i mean 'america' not 'atheists'

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. I also lost my religion somewhere

I know exactly where actually, but this was very poor experimental design. It worked as a marketing ploy though

[Erose999]

92. Yeah $160 is pretty spendy for shoes. Although I can kind of see it if they're actually made in Ger.

as German labor is expensive, and Germans probably have a little more disposable income than Americans.

If they had a pair where the left shoe said "Vee ahh NIHILISTS Lesbotski" and the right shoe said "und vee fack you ups" I'd probably get them.

[Nye Bevan]

14. So THAT's why the USPS is in trouble.

All of those staff assigned to looking out for atheist symbolism on packages and transferring these ungodly items to a temporary holding area for a few days, could be much more productively employed.

[Zax2me]

37. So the USPS is to blame?

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Actually DHL

It was a marketing stunt

[zappaman]

59. Prove it.

You are making assertions you can't back up.
That would be like writing a story about a soldiers dying on a "sooper duper" secret mission to Syria based on a post on Facebook.
Seriously, who would do that?
Not a real journalist, that's for sure...

[struggle4progress]

76. See my #72

#72

[zappaman]

86. Ahhhhh

Yes, I often get handed packages from my mail carrier from overseas that have a DHL sticker on them.
So, even though the ship thru DHL, they still have to use the USPS.

I wonder if posters who keep saying "DHL! DHL! DHL!" will note this...

[struggle4progress]

88. DHL handles the package until it is very close to the final destination,

then mails it through USPS. According to the graphics and links I provided, DHL often claims it does not actually inject the package into the USPS system, until the package is in the same 5-digit zipcode as the final destination. This means the package can remain under DHL control for the majority of its journey thru the US

[zappaman]

89. So, if you lived in an area that was full of religious fundamentalism...

it is not entirely out of the realm of thought, that someone at the USPS could decide they don't like the sticker and delay or lose the package?

[struggle4progress]

91. If you have evidence of mail tampering, or failure of a postal employee to perform

his or her job according to existing law or regulation, perhaps you should report it

[zappaman]

93. I don't.

Cuz I didn't order this item.

My question is not valid?

[struggle4progress]

104. Accusations IMO ought to be supported by evidence; speculation, not closely

related to facts, is morally akin to slander. Such shipments remain in DHL possession, even after arrival in the US, until transported near the final destination, at which time the shipments are injected into the USPS system. The USPS can only be held accountable for delays that occur after a shipment is delivered to the USPS network. The shoe company claims it has such evidence, but provides only the barest actual data, saying (for example) that a package arrived at its Michigan destination 37 days after being delivered to Deutsche Post DHL on 21.11.12, which is not actual evidence of a delay in the USPS system, since the USPS has no responsibility for whatever time the package spent in the Deutsche Post DHL system

[zappaman]

107. The discussion on their site is ongoing...

"Some response to recent comments... Trevor, thank you for your kind words. We are trying to be as open and transaparent as we can and have given quite a bit more info than most reports on studies or experiments normally do. We'll be sharing our data today - only reason we haven't done it yet is that we didn't expect the story to blow up so quick and we couldn't get hold of our statistician til late yesterday.

And we're happy to answer any questions, also to replicate the study on a larger scale... we've asked for USPS's help to do this. I think at this stage there's a lot we can't communicate in a single infographic, but a Social Psychology Professor has offered to write this study up for publication in a peer-reviewed journal and I think, at that stage, all the detail to thoroughly evaluate the study will be present. Londubh, a good call... see in comments below, we would like to replicate the study with some more conditions like that.

And, SC, first off, we don't absolutely conclude discrimination outright... we say it's likely, as it is, in the absence of better explanations. And we accept, like all good scientists should, that the question will benefit from more experiments, with more conditions and controls. Of course our experimental design can be improved, as we have outlined below. However, to say that there is no substantiation for our conclusion, that some USPS workers are likely to have acted in line with a prejudice, is not a good reading of the results.

The USPS guidelines you mention conflict with the guidelines and expert judgement we sought when setting up the study (admittedly from a postal expert in Germany rather than the US) see our comment below. Also, with things such as FRAGILE and DO NOT BEND and AMAZON often being written on packaging, there is decent precedent for having writing additional to an address on a package.

We also cannot accept that sorting machines removing our packages due to this additional writing would lead to these packages disappearing completely and never being seen again. I would be more inclined to heed the thoughts of USPS workers, like Noah below, who suggest human involvement it likely. As for why we didn't track the studies, simply a matter of cost... and we want to replicate the study with normal postal tracking AND with GPS trackers.

To have done so at the outset would have been prohibitively expensive and had we chosen to wait until we could afford that and not forged ahead with our still robust experimental design, we would never have been in the healthy position we are now to be able to talk about a very real problem we have with shipping, to present reasonable hypotheses and conclusions, and, importantly, to discuss what more we can do to get to the bottom of the problem."

[hay rick]

122. USPS provides delivery services for UPS, FedEx, and DHL.

The Postal Service currently delivers over 30% of FedEx Ground packages. In many cases, these packages are dropped off by the other service at the loading dock of the local Post Office. USPS only handles the "last mile" of delivery. The carriers who handle that delivery are closely monitored by a separate law enforcement agency- the Postal Inspection Service. Historical note- they're the ones that cornered Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.

So, a package that has been handled by Deutsche Post, DHL, German Customs and U.S. Customs (Homeland Security) and may have been handled by an unidentified American cargo carrier (DHL can not schedule domestic flights) or other domestic ground parcel service before it arrives at the Post Office- was definitely lost by the Postal Service if it doesn't show up at its destination. That does seem like the obvious conclusion.

I am particularly grateful that the shoe company sprinkled illustrations of koala bears, a mug of beer, an octopus, a flying saucer, and a kitteh throughout their otherwise dreary report on this study. Kittehs would never lead us astray.

[struggle4progress]

124. Correction: A package that does not arrive at its destination, after being transferred to the USPS,

should be regarded as being lost by USPS. However, as you note, for DHL the USPS only handles the "last mile" of delivery. In another thread on this topic, a DUer reports he carried out an email exchange with the shoe company and was told: we couldn't afford to use tracking in this study. So, in fact, in this supposed study, we seem to have no evidence whatsoever when packages were actually injected into the USPS system, or even if they actually were injected into the USPS system

[BlueCheese]

60. By far the most likely explanation is that the text on the tape is causing sorting problems.

As the post office's directions say, "... totally remove or obliterate all previous labels and markings with heavy black marker."

Having all these extraneous words on the package probably isn't helping. A better experiment would be to send out packages with two kinds of text-- one saying ATHEIST and another saying something neutral, like SHOES.

I have a hard time believing that the same mail service that inundates me with solicitations for the Democratic Party and a dozen other political organizations would bother waylaying a few hundred packages from Germany.

[struggle4progress]

110. USPS doesn't like atheists, godless shoe company concludes (MSNBC)

http://now.msn.com/atheist-shoes-says-usps-discriminates-against-atheists

[Blue_Tires]

121. Great success...Never heard of this company before; now the whole country knows about them

Sensationalist headline, flawed study that gets repeated around the world, and no journalist or blogger bothers to ask any serious questions...

[HappyMe]

69. I think the shoe company just wanted publicity.

The printing on the tape may have interfered with the whole delivery process.

They are ugly, overpriced shoes. I wonder if people would be freaking out if I had shoes that said "Buddha" or "Jesus" on the bottom. When I walked in snow or whatever my footprints would leave evidence of my faith behind. Would that be considered shoving my faith in somebody's face?

I prefer attractive shoes that say nothing in regards to religion.

[RKP5637]

82. +1, n/t

[siligut]

78. Need to look at US Customs too

Since the packages are coming from Germany.

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. It was a lousy marketing campaign

with variables not noted by them, such as the primary shipper is DHL, not the postal service.

Or the fact that they did not have a control with Grandma's Shoes on it... or the fact that this is a brand identity growing PR stunt.

The original OP on this had a link to an atheist site (and there is discrimination but not in this case), The company rep decided to back off, once all the problems with the so called study were pointed out to him.

To list

Primary Shipper is DHL, it is on their own damn website.

They have to go through customs

Once again since primary shipper is DHL, most of the time in custody is DHL.

Also the branded packages are NOT follwoing Postal Service Package regulations (DUH, they get delayed) when the USPS takes it over for last mile in rural areas.

It was a lousy study. The rep from the company decided in the end to back off... once we went into the lousy experimental design (sample size, writing on tape with atheist, not having a control wiht neutral writing in same font and color, and plain tape, which meets USPS regulations).

But it was a good marketing exericse. It relied on a series of stereotypes, including the Public Workers are corrupt (did you know they are accusing them of tampering with the mail, a federal offense)... and I could go on.

[struggle4progress]

109. +

[Erose999]

95. Well a package suspected to contain an Atheist may recieve more scrutiny from US Customs.

I've never seen an "atheist" package before. I'd want to X-ray it and see whats inside.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. Fun fact, Magic the Gathering cards

did... they were selling so fast, at the height of the craze, that they actually tested them for drugs.

Oh since they used destructive testing, they had to pay the company for destruction of property.

The reason, there were actual break ins and robberies at game stores across the US. So the folks at both the FBI and US Customs decided there had to be more to it than just a hot commodity.

[siligut]

97. Customs is under Homeland Security

They should be more concerned about packages filled with religious fervor.

[Erose999]

102. I'd be just as concerned if I saw a package that said "Catholic" or "Jew". One might think the pkg

contained a person's remains or something.

[hay rick]

118. I used to deliver remains to the local airport.

A small local airport had a "sprinkling ashes" service. They would take the ashes up in a plane and sprinkle them over a geographical area in accordance with the final request of the deceased. This was back in the 70s- not sure you can legally do that now.

[patrice]

83. Hmmm, that's the style I have been interested in lately, not that particular rendition of it though.

Synchronicity is interesting.

[Rex]

115. So how did other companies that package their product

like Athiest Shoes compare in wait time? It is true...some assholes work for the UPS, like every other profession I am not shocked if some make mail tardy because of personal beliefs. However, to see if something like this has happened to similar companies would be worth it since they did do a legit study on the issue.

[mainer]

116. Needs to be re-done with GPS tracking

yeah, it would be expensive. But it would also be fascinating to see where the hold-up is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

117. And controls.

They had none.

I posted above the variables at minimum needed.

It's at the bottom after shipping instructions.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2578813

It was, likey, a marketing stunt.

If it was not and they actually find evidence of mail tampering, that is a felony.

[undeterred]

120. So maybe they don't know where to send atheists after they arrive in the afterlife?

and they go missing?