If women have to get their tits out to make a point, so be it.

[MattSh]

As I write, there’s another topless photo doing the rounds on the internet. No change there, you might think, but believe me – this one is different. It shows a 19-year-old Tunisian activist, known only as Amina, her hair cropped close and her lips cherry red. She is smoking a cigarette and reading a book, frowning slightly, her eyes directed towards the page. Across her bare breasts, in Arabic, are these words: “My body belongs to me and is not the source of anyone’s honour.” It looks like art. In a second image, she defiantly flips off the camera with both hands and has the words “Fuck your morals” scrawled in black across her chest. There’s only one word to describe how Amina looks and it’s “badass”.

Both pictures were posted on the Facebook page of the Tunisian branch of the feminist protest group Femen, shortly before it was hacked and emblazoned with writings from the Quran. That was not the strongest reaction: the head of the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, the Salafi cleric Almi Adel, somewhat predictably called for Amina to be stoned to death. “Her act could bring about an epidemic. It could be contagious and give ideas to other women,” he said, perhaps also recognising how badass Amina looks. In response, her family has reportedly placed her in a psychiatric hospital. At the time of writing, more than 86,500 people had signed a petition calling for her protection.

Adel is right to be afraid. Although the fight for equality hasn’t reached epidemic proportions yet, images of Femen protests have repeatedly gone viral. The internet’s ability to spread information quickly makes it a force to be reckoned with. Amina’s plight will not be ignored, especially not by us impressionable women, who are, after all, so susceptible to persuasion.

Those who condemn Femen for supposedly encouraging Amina to put herself in danger are guilty of the same crime as that of clerics such as Adel – denying a woman ownership of her body. The same can be said for the thousands of commenters with something to say about Amina’s breasts. But then that’s what it’s like, having tits: everyone’s got an opinion.

http://www.newstatesman.com/lifestyle/society/2013/03/if-women-have-get-their-tits-out-make-point-so-be-it

[Buffalo Bull]

1. eye catching title...valid point

The guerrilla theater is an honored tactic in the war on oppression

[Zorra]

2. Here's a little song in honor and support of Amina, for the Female Genital

Mutilation Crowd/Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice/My Body Belongs To You And Is A Source of Your Honor Nazis of Islam:

Cheers, Imams! Have a nice day!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. Cheers indeed

I have had posts cancelled for saying much less.

[Taverner]

179. +100

[AsahinaKimi]

309. cool video!

Like!

[elehhhhna]

3. yeah. young women should always "get their tits out" to bring attention to their concerns

love it. great idea.

[elehhhhna]

4. where the fuk is seabeyond? I want her thoughts on this.

[cleanhippie]

98. Yeah, call in the reinforcements. More outrage needed, stat!

[Scootaloo]

602. She was delivered a fresh vacation by her stalkers

The topic at hand is like, a year and a half old, and was covered quite extensively on DU.

If I recall, Amina herself has expressed mild disgust over the fact there's been more interest in her breasts than her point.

[idwiyo]

100. What's wrong with tits? Wha's wrong to use them to emphasise the message? You DO get it why

they are naked? Or do you?

[elehhhhna]

603. it's exploitive in this society.

but feel free to wave your dick at the next protest

[leftyladyfrommo]

5. Wow! How interesting from a feminist perspective.

She has her top off and boobs out but really that picture is not one bit sexy - it's hard, tough, great.

I would normally never think a woman should use nudity to get a point across but I like this one.

[elehhhhna]

6. men should brandish their penises in order to be taken seriously, also

[Arcanetrance]

7. Sadly many of us do I work and am related to quite a few guys who can't make a point without

Grabbing at it

[elehhhhna]

8. okay, that was funny

we laugh at two things: shock and truth.

You hit both. Good job!

[leftyladyfrommo]

15. You are kidding? Right?

Yuk.
I would be gone in a hurry if some guy did that while I was talking to him.

[Arcanetrance]

28. Sadly only half kidding I have a couple people one a friend and the other a cousin

They can't hold a conversation without readjusting or doing other such things.

[In_The_Wind]

21. Oh No!

[MineralMan]

11. To draw the correct parallel, it's "Whip their dicks out."

I really dislike the use of "tits" to refer to human breasts. So, the equivalent expression should be equally crass.

[narnian60]

131. Yes, thank you.

[MoclipsHumptulips]

279. Thank you.

Agree.

Same for me with boobs and boobies, they are breasts.

[sabrina 1]

535. Women are not prudes, and most could not care less about boobs, tits, or

any other noun used to describe breasts. I know the Right has done a good job of painting Feminists as prudes, joyless, petty and bullies, hoping to censor the language. Nothing could be further from the truth. We have a few women who spend their time on this trivia, and then we have Feminists doing the hard work needed to end discrimination around the world, against women. We do not wish to play into the Rush Limbaugh propaganda about women. So it would be helpful to make it clear that you speak for yourself, certainly not Liberals who are among the most carefree, easy-going people in the world. Not uptight prudes as Limbaugh would have people believe.

You really should not worry about words like tits, and you don't have to try so hard to convince anyone you support women. Most people don't care and the rest you'll never convince anyhow. Generally women have more important things to worry about.

[MineralMan]

536. Please note the last line in my signature line.

Last edited Sun Mar 31, 2013, 10:23 AM - Edit history (1)

I do appreciate your advice, though. Indeed I do. I'm honored that you chose to chide me as your only post in this thread. Of all the posts in the thread, you chose mine. I can't tell you how much that means to me.

[fitman]

34. If I whipped put my penis

the women would all laugh.. (sigh)

[whathehell]

177. They should, but too many have small ones and they couldn't stand the comparisons, LOL.

[Kurovski]

306. Men have been exposing the ol' cocker for protests since at least 1914.

Have you forgotten all the recent modern protests? Have you ever been to a parade in seattle?

I think you've fallen for the title, which is of course used to draw attention.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022585954

[seabeyond]

9. this is like the 4th of these threads. always posted by a man. always, a man opposed to feminists

speaking up on du. the more women speak up on du, the more men react by posting this garbage.

this is how effective these women are. they strip down using nudity to get attention and PERFORM for the men and their crude, degrading jokes and giggles flashing their camera and that is as far as it gets.

these women are used for a tool, just as womens sexuality is held up as a tool for men in all things.

these women do damage to womens movement in many ways. and the men recognize this, hence continual OPs on it to put du women in their place.

when we take our female politicians, or our female business owners and reducing them to their sexuality, we see how orgs like these effect us as a whole.

the pussy riot was created by men. used womens sexuality to accomplish their goals. and used that sexuality for their porn adn to degrade the women along with getting THEIR message out. at the expense to all women. as does peta. as does this org. as did the boobquake bullshit rally of 6 girls and 50 men with cameras who only discussed the tits.

[randome]

19. This is Tunisia, you know.

Making a point and at the same time sticking a finger in the eye of the fundamentalists is probably a good thing.

But, yeah, most of us here in the Western world just see the nudity. I suppose only Amina is 'qualified' to say if this is appropriate or not.

[bettyellen]

32. like theres not a dozen more important things they could be doing "sticking their finger in the...

eye of" fundamentalists. But it would not get press, and that's the problem.

[randome]

64. The entire point of a protest is to get press attention.

Should Amina demurely hold a placard demanding she be allowed to be topless whenever she wants?

I can well imagine some women's feeling of confinement knowing they are NEVER allowed to go topless in public simply because men don't approve.

[seabeyond]

66. yes. cause really, women must use their sexuality ALWAYS in order to be heard. but wait....

they are never heard. not really. it is a bunch of men with camera, snark, jokes, degradation.

accomplished a hell of a lot with that, right? which would be the damage that she does. that i have discussed. that no one else is discussing.

you know, the use of these OPs to use the woman as a tool, to put the du feminists in their place, to shut them up.

you know, the continue threads by men, that oppose feminists voice.

that damage.

[randome]

69. There is plenty of non-snark conversation going on here.

But you don't seem to want to join in on that aspect.

I repeat: should a woman who feels the need to go topless continue to cover herself up for the benefit of the men around her?

It should be irrelevant whether men will enjoy seeing her naked. What if SHE wants that?

I've already told my daughter she can be naked in the house if she wants because I don't want her to feel that sense of confinement I imagine some women feel.

She hasn't chosen to take me up on that.

[seabeyond]

74. no, it is not irrelevant, mens behavior. when a man says, nudity is not a deal, then hubba hubba a

woman when she is topless, HE has the issue with nudity. when nudity is only that, then we are on a level playing field. when men USE nudity to pornify, repress, degrade, demean women then HE has the problem that holds ALL us women down.

i listen to you men constantly talk about prudes. and that nakedness is not a big deal. as you men behave like a bunch of asses when seeing nudity, jumping up and down on tippy toes, clapping hands, yelling boobies, boobies. YOU are the issue. not the woman. YOU are the problem, not the woman. YOU are the one making a deal out of nudity and being ridiculous, not the woman.

and YOU do it for a reason. you do it to put women in their place, degrade. you do it so YOU have the control over the womans sexuality, and she does not. you shift her to performance for YOU. not a mere nakedness.

[bettyellen]

81. it's true, he's critiquing this protester slightly less crudely than if he were at at strip bar.

[seabeyond]

85. ya. and all the while declare how he RESPECTS the stripper so. exactly. nt

[randome]

89. And can anyone answer my question?

If a woman WANTS to be naked for her own reasons, should she first take into consideration what the men around her think?

Or should she simply be herself?

I realize my attraction to naked women makes my judgment suspect but what about Amina's judgment? Why isn't she -and only she- the one who decides what she does with her body?

Why are any of us deciding her motives FOR her?

[polly7]

92. She should be herself and be proud of it. nt.

[randome]

102. First and foremost, yes.

And my enjoyment or non-enjoyment of seeing a naked woman should have NOTHING to do with it.

I'm sure as hell not encouraging anyone to go topless for my benefit. (Well, sometimes, but not on an international scale like this.)

[CrispyQ]

521. Absolutely a woman should be able to go naked for her own reasons.

Sea's point is, that men steal that from us when they ogle & use words like tits & boobs, & pull out their cameras to take a pic. Once again, it becomes about the men getting their thrills from the woman's nudity, not the woman being her own person. Maybe for some women that doesn't detract, but for many it does.

It would be interesting what the comments in this thread would be, if the women were 50-100 pounds overweight. I'll bet not so many would be saying "show it," then.

We must kill the patriarchy for women to dance naked for our own pleasure. We must kill the patriarchy if our species is going to evolve socially.

[randome]

523. Of course if she was overweight, men would not oggle as much.

Men like lanky bodies. Women like looking at Chris Hemsworth's lanky bod. (I'm sure some guys, too.)

I will always be in favor of women rising up against the patriarchy but I would be lying if I said I did not like seeing a shapely nude woman. Those are two different things to me.

Amina already has my support and she didn't need to be nude to get it. Her message is aimed at another group -those whose attention can only be captivated other than by the rightness of her message.

[iemitsu]

527. This action was done by a Tunisian woman to protest

"morality laws" in her country and the action cannot be judged by western standards. We are not the ones who will determine how effective or appropriate Amina's protest is.
That said, the action is about sexualizing women and reinforcing a second class status for women but Amina's protest is about Tunisian men and culture not American men or their attitudes.
This is Amina's protest, I doubt she was prompted by a man to expose her naked breasts. She chose to place herself in great danger to make a point and it is not fair for American men or women to second guess what motives or impact the action might have on Tunisian society.
Who cares if American men are titillated by breasts? One could argue, that while the protest might have its desired effects in the Muslim world it backfires in the west where men act silly when breasts are exposed but Americans are not the target audience. But why make such an argument? Just to alienate American men? How we feel or might react is not the issue.
I wish that this sort of protest, and the social and legal conditions that prompt such protests, could be discussed without men being vilified (by some) for having interest in the subject (both women's rights and breasts).
How American men view naked breasts is not the issue and insisting that men cannot discuss women's issues without nefarious motives is insulting. Women need men to understand their point of view if all are to be treated equally. Marginalizing men and excluding them from discussions about women's rights does not help women gain those rights.

[mercuryblues]

601. the problem

stems from I support her. Well what is she protesting? oh, look TITSSSSSSZZZZZ!!!!!

[ZombieHorde]

331. Some good points, in my opinion. nt

[bettyellen]

109. WTF does your daughter's naked breasts have to do with human rights in Tunisia?

[randome]

114. Because women in general, I imagine, feel constrained by men to the point...

...where they feel they can NEVER be naked anywhere a man is around.

And, um, naked breasts are somewhat relevant to the OP. My point is that if a woman truly wants to be casual and naked anywhere, why should she not feel comfortable being that?

The house is a 'safe zone' for my daughters. An option not available for Amina.

[bettyellen]

120. so human rights issues boil down to walking around naked at home? thanks for proving this protest

to be too distracting to provoke any interesting discussion or thoughts into the reality of life in Tunisia.
Poor woman can't be naked at home!

[randome]

125. What is an acceptable means of protest you think she should engage in?

Unless one of us has the same sense of 'ownership' as women in Tunisia do, I don't think you nor I are qualified to tell her HOW to protest.

[bettyellen]

134. Your pointing and laughing is the first step down that road that leaves her covered up

indoors, uneducated, with no liberty. So, in that context the tit jokes are particularly grating.
You didn't figure that out for yourself?

Based on the immediate reaction of tit jokes, (yours and many others) we can make observations about how effective this kind of protest is. She is brave, no doubt- but is the protest itself helpful? It's debatable.

I'm not sure it's worth her risking rape and murder to have hundreds of men do nothing but point and make titty jokes.

[randome]

193. WESTERN men may point and make titty jokes.

But the reaction of some Tunisian men might be very different. And that's her audience.

SOME of them might think, 'Wow, why do we keep that covered up?' And that's a crack in the armor of subjugation.

For her to hold her breath and wait for everything in the world to change according to her dictates is not reasonable.

IMO.

[Squinch]

269. Correction: to giving his daughter permission to walk around naked at home.

I'm feeling a large WTF moment here.

[randome]

274. Household nudity is not equivalent to child porn!

Sorry it creeps you out but not everyone is uptight about these matters.

As I said below, my offer itself makes them think about themselves differently. And that's the point.

[Squinch]

275. I never said it was. Still, I bet the vast majority of posters

here ARE uptight about "these matters."

[randome]

276. My sphere of concern and responsibilities don't encompass everyone.

So your pointing that out implies that YOU are uptight about something like this.

I'm not trying to relive the 60's but we did have communes and hang-outs where nudity wasn't such a big deal.

And once in the 80's, I delivered a pizza to a nude woman.

Different people have different perspectives about nudity. I made the point to my daughters that it should not be a big deal.

[Squinch]

271. But apparently they don't see it as being as "safe" as you do, because they have not taken you

up on your "invitation" for them to walk around naked there.

Gotta say, if my father had ever issued such an invitation, I'd be very creeped out.

But that's me.

[randome]

272. There is NO question in their minds of feeling safe with me, I assure you.

I think embarrassment still plays a part. I don't want them to be embarrassed about their bodies. How can I 'prove' that unless I say the house is a safe zone for them?

It's not important that they take me up on that. It's important that they have an idea that being ashamed of their bodies -and covering them up- is not necessary. The offer itself makes them think about themselves differently.

[randome]

348. Divorced. Financially and emotionally, I am a single parent.

And as I pointed out numerous times, allowing nudity and encouraging it are two different things.

Being able to talk about such things with my daughters makes them see themselves differently, and that's the point of such discussions.

There is NOTHING my daughters can't talk to me about. And they know it.

[opiate69]

356. Good job in being insufferable and arrogant enough to presume that you know more about his family

dynamic than him.

[opiate69]

368. Yep.. You've never really been one for self-reflection... why start now?

It's fucking sick, alright.

[idwiyo]

422. Your reaction is sick, that's for sure. Projecting much?

[idwiyo]

442. I don't have to listen to stupid stuff like that. Because its degrading and very very stupid.

Father, who told his daughter she is free to feel and do as she wish because her body is NOT a sexual object?
YOU, who is convinced that daughter's body IS a sexual object to her Dad? If someone is sick here it's YOU.

I am VERY sorry for whatever upbringing you had. Whatever it was it wasn't the right to twist someone's mind like that.

[idwiyo]

463. I will keep saying that what you trying to imply is degrading and stupid. You stopped short of

calling this poster names but its obvious what you are trying to imply. And THAT is sick.
Obviously for you there is no other explanation but the sick picture you (and your husband) managed to form in your minds. Maybe you should reflect on that a little bit.

I repeat: every child should be taught there is nothing wrong with being naked, there is nothing to be ashamed of when it comes to their body, and they are safe to walk around their own home naked if they chose to do so. And definitely children should be sure their parents don't ever look at them THAT way.

[idwiyo]

478. Your implication is absolutely clear. I did say you stopped short of calling him names.

[idwiyo]

490. I am amazed that you are not even remotely disturbed that the first thought forming in your

mind was about something disgusting, sick and crossing the boundary. Not about parent trying to teach their kids that there is nothing wrong with being naked because there is nothing to be ashamed of when it comes to their bodies. Nope, you think instead of 'inappropriate stuff' to put it mildly.

[polly7]

459. BINGO. nt.

[polly7]

358. So the HOF warriors came out as a team to label a father who wants

his daughters to see themselves confidently and not be ashamed of their own bodies as some kind of pervert??? Wow. You're all really angry over this, heh? Children feeling safe in their own home is a sin? I've seen seabeyond post a few times that her boys ran around a lot naked ....... did you report her to CPS for that? What you're doing here is really sick and disgusting, you know. You should be ashamed of yourselves, but I don't think you're capable.

[polly7]

362. You seem to have a HUGE problem with the truth.

And what you're trying to do is still sick ............ very sick. But nothing new.

[polly7]

367. You wouldn't know the meaning of the word.

And imo, you should be tossed for what you're trying to do. Vicious, dishonest, ugly, desperate crap. You've really sunk lower than even I thought was possible.

[polly7]

380. You think something is disgusting that you know NOTHING about.

But that's par for the course and pretty much your MO on everything you rant about here.

Below the belt ......... seriously. Get a fucking grip.

[polly7]

471. No, people aren't normally this cruel. You need to think about how you treat others.

You obviously don't have a grip if you were thinking he'd send his daughters out around the block naked. Calling to have his children taken away, be divorced ........ that's a rant and a personal attack against the TOS here,imo.

[polly7]

482. You made it sick. It shows who you are, and says nothing about him.

But yes, you've said many things about him personally.

[opiate69]

371. It's becoming very reminiscent of another, thankfully, departed DUer..

She's apparently learned from the best of them...

[opiate69]

381. No accusation... and no beating around the bush needed..

your old friend iverglas seems to have rubbed off on you. Have fun with that.

[opiate69]

397. Many years have gone by since I took high school algebra... I still remember how to factor equations

[opiate69]

413. So.. the length of iverglas' absence has fuck-all to do with whether or not her tactics are still

being employed... amazing that needs to be spelled out for you...

[opiate69]

421. bullying, swarming, logical fallacys, misrepresenting posters`s posts..

Etc etc ad nauseum..

[Kurovski]

550. Do you really think iverglas would give up all this? Her little court?

Last edited Tue Apr 2, 2013, 05:26 AM - Edit history (1)

She is ever near as a whisper to a lover's ear.

Or a thud.

[opiate69]

557. Fair point..

[randome]

386. All of which helps me refine and validate my choices as a parent.

So in that respect, all discussions have some nutritional value, even when posters have vehement opinions on a subject.

[idwiyo]

434. Please, do not EVER EVER EVER go anywhere near Canary Islands. You will scare the people

and probably will have a heart attack too. Hint: nudist beach in the middle of town full of FAMILIES.
All naked. Nudist resorts. Full of kids, teens, Mums, GrandMums, GrandDads, fathers, singles, gay, straight, you name it... EVERYONE is NAKED THERE. ALL THE TIME. INSIDE too. The horror...

[polly7]

439. Neither are his daughters walking around nude.

He thinks his daughters should feel free at home. He let them know they were free to dress as they pleased and not feel bad for it in their own home. The shame.

[polly7]

452. Dressing as one wants includes wearing nothing, or wearing whatever they hell they want.

Lucky girls. They have a father that actually cares about them growing up to be confident women.

[idwiyo]

456. It doesn't bloody matter if he is nudist or not. What matters is that YOU think it's inappropriate.

Or that you actually think its OK if one is nudist but not OK if one isn't.

It should always be OK for a child to know that their parents don't damn view them as sexual objects and there is nothing wrong with being naked. Not one single thing. Even more so they must know that its OK to walk around naked at home if they chose to do so because THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT.

[JI7]

464. it does matter if you are a father inviting your daughters to be naked

it's just creepy otherwise . just like the purity balls

[idwiyo]

474. What is creepy that so many people are programmed to think its not appropriate to be naked.

It implies that you strongly believe there is something wrong with it. Even more disturbing is that deeply held belief I've noticed in Americans (and some other puritanical societies, to be fair) that nudity in front of one's parent is 'creepy', 'sick' and there just must be something horrible going on.

Can't imagine how restrictive and shaming your collective upbringing must have been. Wonder if it has something to do with religion?

[JI7]

479. so why doesn't he get naked and invite some other family to get naked ? how about some guys

[randome]

492. WTF are you talking about?

Seriously, this is no longer a discussion, it's just vitriol. And we have hijacked a thread about an important subject. I relent and retire. Good day to you.

[idwiyo]

494. You should seriously think about what you have just said and implied. I am sorry for you that

You can't think about anything else but sick and disgusting stuff. It's very disturbing to me that so many people are programmed by their culture to think that being naked is abnormal and something to be ashamed of.

I am very sorry for you.

[idwiyo]

480. Don't change the subject, please. But nice try. Again, stop projecting.

[polly7]

488. Purposefully misunderstand much?

Carry on making this disgusting crap up. I need to go shower. What you're trying to do is filthy and horrible.

[randome]

365. Thanks for the support.

My daughters are 15 years old. One is learning Mandarin because...just because! The other is deep into philosophy books, Sherlock Holmes and ghost stories.

I can see them becoming intellectual giants if they choose to continue their knowledge-seeking ways. And I will always encourage them to push the envelope.

[randome]

375. Sorry you have an issue with nudity.

It's not a big deal to many. I would think it's salacious only when it IS a big deal.

[opiate69]

376. Right.. because nudity is bad, right??

[opiate69]

385. Thousands (if not millions) of happy, well-adjusted naturalists would disagree.. but.. of course,

you're just so much smarter than everyone else.. you obviously know best.

[randome]

398. Obviously I don't have to answer ANY questions.

But for your information, no, I do not walk around nude in front of my daughters. Being nude was never the object. Making sure they understood that they have no need to feel embarrassed about themselves was the object.

I'm starting to think you have some pretty horrendous experiences in your past to have this level of vitriol toward what I would have thought was a minor point I made.

[polly7]

407. I think they're probably well-adjusted girls who would be creeped out by you. nt.

[polly7]

417. Clueless and vicious. nt.

[polly7]

429. You said next, he'd be encouraging them to go around the block topless, did you not???

Whose words are those?

[polly7]

438. Because that's what YOU'D do?

Creepy. I doubt very much that poster even considered something so strange.

[polly7]

455. Maybe you need to be checked out then. CPS might be interested. nt.

[randome]

441. Why don't I encourage them to be nude in public?

Because as I've pointed out numerous times, nudity was never the object. Getting themselves oggled is not the object.

Letting them know they can push the envelope a little and can feel safe doing just about anything they want at home is the object.

Society advances by pushing the envelope. If it didn't, we would not have gay marriage.

[Bonobo]

447. Not as wrong as your implication that he is an incestuous pederast.

Frankly, I would like to see you kicked off DU for making such an accusation.

It is beyond disgusting to do what you have done on this thread.

I mean I seriously am finding you to be a disgusting person.

[polly7]

454. So would I. This is sick. nt.

[polly7]

374. Your daughters are lucky girls to have such a trusting relationship with their father.

And making sure they know their bodies are nothing to be ashamed of is a good thing. So many teenagers suffer with body image problems, starve themselves, binge - they have enough problems without feeling ashamed in their own homes. People see dirt when they want to ......... and some here WANT TO, VERY BADLY. Ignore the bullshit.

[polly7]

383. Took him up on WHAT?

Letting them know they could feel safe at home? How DARE he. You're deluded.

[randome]

388. You used the word 'should'.

Again, there is a big difference between allowing nudity and encouraging it.

[polly7]

394. What if, what if! Yeah, I can see why you have to introduce bullshit to make it worse.

Next you'll be trying to say he sold them into the sex-trade. I can completely understand a father OR mother letting their daughters know it's alright to be themselves at home. Does that mean that parent is going to sit and ogle and think lewd thoughts about their own child if it ever by chance happened ....... maybe a streak from the bathroom to bedroom, or sunning out on the deck, or laying around on a hot day in their undies??? NO. But it says a lot about what YOU think.

[opiate69]

399. "But it says a lot about what YOU think"... Bing-fucking-o.

[polly7]

403. Thank you. I nailed that one. nt.

[opiate69]

408. Indeed you did..

[opiate69]

502. Wow.. went to make the kids dinner.. (and yes, everyone was clothed lmao)

and come back to a kaleidoscope of self-deletes...

[polly7]

504. LOL. I know! I went and had a shower and came back to see this.

Someone's been busy! But I'd have deleted that awful stuff too if I valued my time here in the future. You just can't treat people that way forever.

[opiate69]

508. I would say, maybe there was some kind of epiphany?

Oh right... forgot who I was talking about for a second!

[polly7]

406. You have no idea what he said to them or in what context.

You just tried to say he'd encourage them to go around the block naked. Anything to berate and humiliate though heh? WHY? What thrill do you get out of this? Never mind, I don't care. I saw you do it before, many times and it's been disgusting each and every time.

[polly7]

415. Yes I read them.

What's your problem???

He gave his daughters a very important lesson re having freedom over their own bodies in the safety of their own home. Obviously, it wasn't something that was pushed, if they've never done it. Over-react much? Sad, you didn't quite get the mileage you were hoping for, but the reporting to CPS was pretty dramatic, I'll give you that.

[polly7]

426. 'Opinion' isn't making up horror stories to get children removed from a home.

He didn't 'encourage' anything. He gave them a place to be safe and let them know they wouldn't be villified for it. It's their HOME. If it were a mother saying this, would you be as horrified? Parents do see their own children occasionally not dressed. It's vicious, vile and low. Like I said, you should be ashamed ......... but you seem to live for this kind of thing.

[polly7]

435. Your opinion on something you know nothing about, lying about what he'll 'do'

next, threatening he should be reported, divorced ......... all your vile, ugly crap - it's more than opinion, it's some sort of sick obsession. And yet YOU play the victim so quickly, yourself. You're a fucking bully. And I don't care if this is hidden. You did it with Neoma, you did it on META time after time and you're doing it now. Make up the ugliest things you can and hope they stick because you repeat them over and over ad nauseum. You have no idea how you hurt people ....... and you don't care.

[polly7]

446. A father that wants his daughters to have self-confidence and feel safe.

It may be 'sick' to you, it seems awful freeing to me. But as his daughters obviously have never felt pressured to walk around undressed in their own home, your outrage makes no sense. Your agenda does, though.

[polly7]

457. Nobody's trying to change your opinion. Just respond to your ugly allegations. nt.

[polly7]

468. Of course not. You're not the one you're trying to label some kind of pervert

who deserves divorce and to have his children taken away. How would that, if it happened, be any skin off your nose?

You're so outraged over something that hasn't happened you can't even think straight .......... or not, and it's just a game. Either one is pathetic. No?

[randome]

451. One who has a greater intellectual understanding of such things than you, apparently.

Calling nudity 'sick' stems from a very puritanical viewpoint, IMO. And our discussions of nudity, women's rights, gay rights, church patriarchies, etc. sometimes leaves my head spinning.

There is NOTHING they need to feel uncomfortable talking to me about. Nothing. And they know it.

[randome]

491. For one thing, they are adolescents.

And will soon -and probably do now, come to think of it- have 'feelings' about anatomical parts.

I'm not trying to 'turn them on', as you're implying. A casual remark that they don't have to constantly worry about covering themselves up around me is hardly worth the outrage you want to promote.

But you've worn me out and it's time for me to retire. Say hello to the 19th century for me!

[Kurovski]

551. It must have been some pretty messed-up musings if even bostonbean saw fit to delete them.

Is that supposed to be some kind of inky self-redemption going on in that other GD thread?

I know of two threads/scrambling attempts toward diversionary redemption on the part of sb, perhaps for the remarkably depraved ramblings on a young activist's choices over the past few days.

[Kurovski]

555. I think you just found a literary device that can mimic the experience of pychosis.

I don't feel at all well.

[pacalo]

573. OMG!

I stumbled in here trying to find the originator of "all men are potential rapists!1!" (advanced search is a dud tonight) & I found a gold mine of humor!



(The self-deletes are priceless! Must have saved her the misery of a ton of unfavorable jury results! )

[pacalo]

575. I feel like I'm back on the mothership.

[Bonobo]

473. You said he was sick.

You implied he was a pederast with incestuous thoughts.

Absolutely one of the most vile, disgusting things I have ever seen and I think you should be PPR'ed for it.

[randome]

419. This is only a big deal to you. Not to me or my daughters.

I didn't 'invite' my daughters to anything. I don't recall my exact words but it wasn't exactly a big conversation.

Somehow we got on the subject of men telling women what to do in the context of nudity and I probably said something like, "It's no big deal if you want to be naked in the house. Won't mean a thing to me."

Men are forever forbidding women from doing certain things, like being topless, even though men can do this all they want. The double standard is pretty obvious.

[JI7]

344. totally creepy, kind of reminds me of the Purity Balls

[randome]

346. There is a big difference between allowing nudity and encouraging it.

See post #272.

[JI7]

352. still creepy , and covering up doesn't mean being ashamed of one's body

[randome]

357. I absolutely agree with that.

The only point I made to my daughters was that they don't have to abide by men's decisions on how they see themselves.

[Little Star]

340. Hope you would be ready for The DSS regarding what you told your daughter.

[randome]

345. No agency would ever override my parenting decisions.

Most people find me authentic and unwilling to hide a thing. That has always served me well in the past.

There is a big difference between allowing nudity (not encouraging it) in a home and trying to instigate something on the level of child pornography.

And as I pointed out elsewhere, it's the mere discussion of the topic that gets my daughters to think differently about themselves. That's all that's necessary.

[randome]

355. I never said a discussion of nudity with my daughters was anything major.

It's not like I sat them down to have some sort of super-serious conversation about the 'importance' of nudity.

Our philosophical discussions range greatly and there is no topic off-limits to them. They know that.

[polly7]

73. You should probably understand that what is said that offends

you (and not all women here, by any means) on DU has really, absolutely nothing to do with this or many other brave women's actions (or really much effect on anything in the real world at all). You concentrate on that so much, I think you lose sight of what women in the real world are actually doing. This article is not about putting anyone in their place here, it's pointing out the extreme, brave measures some women are out there taking for things they truly believe in and are willing to sacrifice their own personal safety for. I applaud it, but only because I don't see an adult using their own body as 'pornification for the menz'. I have more respect for them than that ........ and especially for those in areas of the world who really are putting themselves in danger. The 'pornification' argument seems pretty shallow here, don't you think?

[UnrepentantLiberal]

96. I think the obsessions of that group are unhealthy.

It can't be good to reinforce each other's anger and paranoia day after day. It's like a cult.

[JTFrog]

130. It seems it's not "that group" with the unhealthy obsession.

But then I don't expect your cognitive dissonance to allow you to see this.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

139. How'd you like the response to your alert on my post?

A female juror was nice enough to send the results to me.

Jury service results on alerted post- yours.

Thought you'd like to know. Ridiculous alert.

At Fri Mar 29, 2013, 08:44 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

I think the obsessions of that group are unhealthy. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2583720

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/? com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Once again, UL is attacking the feminist community with personal attacks. He resorts to this type of attack on a group of duers all too often.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Mar 29, 2013, 09:06 AM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: This feminist agrees with the alerted-upon post. UL has made a very valid point about a particular subset, not the entire feminist community. Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Seriously? Sounds to me like UL has a stalker -you. "Once again, UL is attacking the feminist community with personal attacks. He resorts to this type of attack on a group of duers all too often"?

#1: There is nothing that violates DU CS or TOS in UL's post. Nothing. It's an opinion, a characterization, and its valid.

#2: You, alerter, spend far too much time on DU if you can unequivocally state that UL is smearing this group yet "Once again". Really? Maybe you should place UL on ignore; it's much healthier. Anonymity is good in this case otherwise I'd wonder if you stalk UL's posts. Really.

#3: I personally find the title of this thread far more personally insulting, HOWEVER it's not about me, it's not about me as an American woman, and it's not egocentric on my part. Think about it.

#4: And yet again, some on DU think DU revolves around a frustrated group of keyboard warriors who call themselves feminists, but who do little more than write words wrapped in invective on this message board every day. Pro-active feminists get out in the world and actually work to make a difference. DU is NOT the place to effect real change, it should be a place to type words and hopefully promote ideas and exchange information. This particular feminist contingent on DU leaves this feminist with a bad taste. They do me nor others like me any favors - and this includes you, alerter.

Bad alert. Address the issue, talk it out, quit trying to remove those whose opinions you don't care for. Leave the post alone. Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[JTFrog]

142. I didn't alert on your fucking post.

But then you probably knew that already.

Not much you won't misrepresent here.

[EOTE]

190. So defensive!

I suppose it wouldn't surprise me if it were one of the regulars, either. Regardless, it shows how incredibly out of touch some on this board are.

[JTFrog]

321. GFY.

Good for you. You have it all figured out.

[EOTE]

329. Thanks. GFY to you as well.

Pay attention and you too can live a life free of ignorance.

[polly7]

579. How insulting.

Shame it wasn't hidden. Should I take a screen-shot for posterity? Did you apologize? I'll look ......... but I don't think so! See, I did tell you I have a long memory.

[polly7]

581. Oh no!

It appears it all worked out good for you!!!! lmfao.

[JTFrog]

582. Why are you kicking up my old posts?

Are you that desperate for attention? After the shit you posted to me last night and the nasty unsolicited PM, it would appear that you are harassing and stalking me. I doubt this will turn out the way you want it to. For your own sake you should probably step back and reassess the situation.

[polly7]

584. Why not? You told someone to GFY - insulting!

What nasty pm? Didn't you say pm'(s) just to make it appear worse? Why, sure you did.

Here it was ( the one and only):

polly7
"I know you're aware I can't respond to your stalking drivel on that thread.

Keep it up though, you're revealing far more about yourself than you realize. And it's just more of the same bullying, dirty tactics and 'pooooor me!' bullshit you excel at. LMAO. No worries, my memory is long."


As for the long memory - what, you don't like to see your own words? Harassment! Look at that ugly thread and tell me who the harasser was- not just to me, either.

If I were you, I'd be doing the stepping back. And apologizing!

[JTFrog]

585. No, where did I say pm's? Why are you making shit up and stirring the pot?

and the nasty unsolicited PM

Are you hoping to get me to say something as nasty as you said to me? It's not going to happen. You aren't doing yourself any favors here.

[polly7]

587. lol!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5487866

Done. You go on trying to get rid of everyone who's on your group hit list, just remember,a lot of us have loooong memories.

Ick.

[JTFrog]

588. I sincerely hope you feel better soon. n/t

[polly7]

589. I didn't harass you, I replied to your harassment. (No comment on the 'pm('s)?)

One hell of a good try, though! And no, pain killers wasn't my excuse at all, just some info for the kind person who addressed me civilly as to why I was in a rotten mood. I respond with how I'm treated- you get what you give. But yeah, my one response was awful and deserved an apology to all of DU. Where's yours?

[JTFrog]

590. I sincerely hope you feel better soon. n/t

[polly7]

591. I hope you are too!

No worries, I heal fast and am excited to fix up a beautiful old house. Your dishonesty and attempts to get me banned really don't bother me at all. I have a good, busy life and enjoy reading and learning here whether I'm able to post or not. Try getting rid of someone more invested, you'll feel better about it, I'm sure. Maybe get your group to get a more detailed list on who will be hurt most by it. My apology to DU was sincere, btw ..... I feel very bad for being so crude. I guess it comes from not taking shit from anyone in real life and forgetting that civility here is part of being a member. Maybe you need to remember that too.

And, I don't believe for a millisecond you care how anyone outside your group feels, so there's that.

[BainsBane]

593. If you think she is trying to get you banned

Why do you continue to respond to her not only in the gravedancing thread today but now in all these old threads? What do you think that will accomplish?

[BainsBane]

595. Most of that makes no sense

and I have learned from experience you refuse to provide links for any of your allegations. I will just say that you don't need to respond to me or anyone else. You don't need to answer any questions, or pursue people from one thread to another. In fact you are free to ignore me and any one else you please. The question, however, was an entirely logical one. Perhaps it's something you should think about, if you actually believe what you write, that is. Perhaps you don't, I can't begin to know.

I can say one thing with absolute certainty that I am more than happy to put my posting record up against yours any day. Not only have I never posted the sort of thing you did today in the grave dancing thread, I have never spoken that way to a single person in my entire life, nor will I ever do so. So given what you think is acceptable behavior, you'll have to excuse me if I don't take your condemnations terribly seriously.

[polly7]

596. Makes perfect sense for me! Sorry you can't accept being that unimportant to me (well, not really).

[BainsBane]

597. I should be so lucky.

[X_Digger]

592. This post survived a jury..

On Thu Sep 4, 2014, 10:07 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Why not? You told someone to GFY - insulting!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5490783

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Poster kicked an old thread to start in with this poster. It is a continuation from the whisp is ppr'ed thread. This is destructive and it makes DU suck.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Sep 4, 2014, 10:29 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Oh ffs. (x 2)
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This whole thread looks like a cluster thump of biblical proportions. To pick and choose which post should be hidden is like passing out speeding tickets at the Indianapolis 500. Let it stand as evidence that the whole thread should be trashed.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Personal attack. Something this poster unfortunately does a lot of.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: OMG! Another pissing contest on DU! Leave up all these damned posts and let the world see the petty bullshit. FFS!!


<-- Juror #1

[BainsBane]

583. Now you're defending PPR'd trolls?

You can look for 100 yrs. You aren't going to find a post that comes close to the one you made.

[polly7]

586. Now you're defending what you found so horrible earlier?

Who am I talking to, btw, you, or your sock?

[Capt. Obvious]

598. .

[NuclearDem]

599. Holy necrothread and frivolous alert, Batman!

On Fri Sep 5, 2014, 12:43 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Now you're defending PPR'd trolls?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5490718

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

BB is lying in order to attack and discredit another DUer. If you click the "Response to" links in the upper right corner of this, and each, post, it leads back to DUer EOTE. That's who BB is calling a PPR'd troll. Well, he's an active member and has been here from the beginning of DU. Here's his profile page:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=102681
So, BB is attacking two long time DUers with this lie.


You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Sep 5, 2014, 12:51 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Voting to hide posts by BB is a typical MRA tactic
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The emotional, personal nature of this alert is enough reason to leave it
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Stop with the alerts, I'm not happy having to serve on bullshit alert juries.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[BainsBane]

600. What is with juror 3?

Could you please alert on that result? That is incredible.

Edit: I could have sworn he was PPR'd? Well, I certainly do apologize to EOTE. My mistake.

[loudsue]

232. Juror #4 expresses my feelings perfectly.

Ideas can be expressed and discussed....that's what DU is for. Words on DU don't amount to action or activism.

[Sissyk]

270. i agree with you.

However, I feel there are some on DU thats only action IS on DU. They are not out in the world trying to understand and help.

On DU, it can be their way or the highway as far as they are concerned.

[rhett o rick]

315. The alerter is cranky from meta withdrawls.

[Helen Reddy]

154. Well said. Succinct. n/t

[Squinch]

395. Oh, Lord. It's the weekend again, isn't it?

[UnrepentantLiberal]

400. I'm stone cold sober.

[G_j]

115. risking their lives for certain

I heard a woman interviewed who did a similar protest in Russia I believe. She stated that her purpose was to frighten and make people uncomfortable, not to titillate.
Whether one considers these actions productive or harmful, there is no doubt these women put their lives on the line.

[loudsue]

220. I agree 100%. Not all nudity is about dirty minds, oppression, subjugation, sexism.

As in this woman's outrage at being taught to feel ashamed of her differences, members of her sex, and her sexuality, and freedom. That young girl is a warrior....like the Amazons of old. She's fighting for her rightful territory in this world. I applaud her and respect her tremendously.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

283. what's your email address?

I only ask, because I'm sure that all women in the world will want to check in with you before protesting to see if your definition of feminism is being met. This woman may die for her protest. She likely doesn't give too much of a fuck what you think.

[bettyellen]

88. it's to spur conversation and translate that into action. You drooling is NOT the desired outcome.

But it is the outcome.

[randome]

94. Some of us can deal with more than one viewpoint at a time.

Yes, I enjoy looking at a naked woman's body.

And:

Yes, I think Amina is right to challenge fundamentalist beliefs in whatever manner she chooses.

Just because those two viewpoints intersect at some spot does NOT invalidate either one of them, IMO.

These are not matter/anti-matter viewpoints.

[bettyellen]

117. You make the crass assumption her protest is to solicit your many opinions on looking at breasts.

People looking at her breasts, possibly looking at your daughters. Wow, that's neither interesting or helpful.
It's like the posting equivalent of not being able to stop staring.

[randome]

121. She's challenging the fundamentalists who think of her as property.

As long as she's considered property, I say she can protest however the hell she wants.

Neither my opinion nor my 'observation' of her nudity invalidate the purpose of her protest.

What have YOU done for Tunisia lately?

[bettyellen]

128. tit jokes are "observations" now? LOL, you mock the nudity and then get self righteous defending it

her activism is obviously an afterthought shared after pointing out your ridicule.

My activism is none of your business, and OT. Just observing the childish reactions. It's a shame this woman is risking her life and you responded immediately with a tit joke.

[DURHAM D]

22. Hi sea - Do you have your Third Wave Feminism = Third Wave Misogyny

cartoon handy?

[seabeyond]

25. this? ya. this. it says it so well.

[Kurovski]

322. While we're about the business of shooting fish in a barrel...

unless you're starring in a production of "The Farmer's Daughter" It's spelled "Yeah", not "ya".

And now I despise us both.

[stevenleser]

133. The irony of that in relation to Femen is, Femen are clearly second wavers.

They are anti-porn and anti-prostitution.

[DURHAM D]

294. I am a real second waver and I am

against neither of those things. Never have been and don't know anyone in the movement who was/is.

[stevenleser]

310. Those are some of the defining differences between second and third wave feminism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_wave_feminism#Elements

Third-wave theory usually incorporates elements of queer theory; anti-racism and women-of-color consciousness; womanism; girl power; post-colonial theory; postmodernism; transnationalism; cyberfeminism; ecofeminism; individualist feminism; new feminist theory, transgender politics, and a rejection of the gender binary. Also considered part of the third wave is sex-positivity, a celebration of sexuality as a positive aspect of life, with broader definitions of what sex means and what oppression and empowerment may imply in the context of sex. For example, many third-wave feminists have reconsidered the opposition to pornography and sex work of the second wave, and challenge existing beliefs that participants in pornography and sex work are always being exploited.

If you are NOT explicitly against pornography and sex work in general, there is a strong chance you are really a third wave feminist and not a second wave feminist.

[DURHAM D]

325. I am what I have lived for 50 years as an adult.

This is a silly assertion re: 2nd wave - "many third-wave feminists have reconsidered the opposition to pornography and sex work of the second wave."

Let me put it another way - This is leftover 3rd wave academic drivel as they sought to separate from and critique the 2nd wave while never realizing they were just a useful tool of the right as they looked hard, very hard, for differences and points of departure instead of the vast areas of natural agreement.

But what else could one expect to come from the male dominated environment of higher education?

I started in the 60s with the 2nd wave (my grandmother btw was an active suffragist in the Oklahoma territory) and have continued on to this moment as no wave. I am simply a Feminist. I don't need a falsely constructed wave narrative to know what that means.

[stevenleser]

332. Rush Limbaugh can call himself a Democrat and has every right to do so. Its a free country.

However, those of us who understand what those terms like "Democrat" mean can rightfully say that he is full of crap if he does so.

There are pretty well defined differences that separate beliefs among second and third wave feminists. You can call yourself a second waver if you want to, just like Rush can call himself a Democrat.

Feel free to speak up and defend porn and prostitution to other self identified second wavers here when those topics come up and see the reaction you get.

[DURHAM D]

335. There are no feminists on DU

of any "wave" that condemn the sex workers themselves. That is a false narrative created by some for their own personal use. The very best thing I can say about it is that I find it boring.

[stevenleser]

337. Now you are moving the goalposts and playing games. nt

[DURHAM D]

339. I didn't move anything.

You just don't like my observation that the feminist wave fighting drivel is supported and promoted by the right wing; including here on DU with broad brush statements about what we think about porn or prostitution.

As for your advice that I need to re-define my wave association... I don't need, nor want, your advice.

[stevenleser]

354. Yeah, if you can find someone to buy what you are trying to sell me, let me know.

I'll have some bridges I want to sell them.

[Bonobo]

485. LOL. Ouch. Total body slam. nt

[UnrepentantLiberal]

44. Feel better now?

[seabeyond]

50. i was asked to come into this thread because a woman poster smells a rat. you have issue with that?

[MattSh]

60. What. This other woman can't speak up for herself?

She needs you to speak for her?

[seabeyond]

65. it is clear what your intent was. i was pretty damn sure, you continually reinforce. little games,

little boys play

[MattSh]

80. That a stupid thing to say.

You have no freaking idea.

[Pab Sungenis]

184. I'm getting so sick of people who tar the word "feminism" by associating it

with what is essentially nothing more than a base hatred of men and anything masculine. It's a gender analogue to the Conservative belief that the only way to win an argument is to diminish what you are arguing against instead of making your own case.

Feminism is not about women being better than men. It's about women having the same rights, privileges, freedoms, responsibilities, opportunities, and place in society as men. It's about everyone having an even playing field in every aspect of society. Sadly, we aren't there yet, but it's something worth fighting for.

Women going topless or naked as a form of political expression is hardly new. This is nothing more than an updated version of the infamous bra-burners, protesting against male-imposed views of the appropriateness of breasts and the double-standard about the propriety of showing a certain amount of flesh. Seeing a woman's breasts does absolutely nothing for me sexually or aesthetically. It's a woman's choice how much or how little she wants to expose as far as I'm concerned. And for those who are offended by a topless woman, those who are easily offended should be more often.

And one last thing about your word choice. Is "little boys" just your misandry showing through? Or are you once again just belittling people who disagree with you by calling them immature? I hate how certain people on here are reducing "man" and "boy" to base epithets. It's no different from the p-word, the c-word, the b-word. It's using a reference to one's gender as an insult and it doesn't belong in reasoned debate. But then again, this isn't reasoned debate, it's DU.

[MADem]

218. I always thought it was all about equal rights, too....

...until I came here!

As for toplessness, I am not a fan of it, though I do agree that what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If it's allowed, well, it's allowed, and the right to go topless shoudn't be restricted by gender or age or weight or any other arbitrary factor.


I was raised in a more modest era, and I really do think that an "excess of flesh" can be upsetting to people, and that it is simply POLITE to not expose too much skin and make a spectacle of oneself. That's quite a different perspective from making a political statement, I suppose, but I can go all year without wanting to see anyone shirtless...boobs/no boobs, abs, guts, body hair, flab, what-have-you...put a shirt on it!

[SamReynolds]

519. This reminds me of a joke I heard on "Cheers":

Paraphrasing:

Woody, 'There's nothing that turns off the appetite like when someone comes to the dinner table from the fields all sweaty, hairy, and shirtless."

Other, "I don't see how that's so bad."

Woody, "Well, you never met Grandma."

[CitizenPatriot]

224. Actually, the man and boy words are not equivalent

to: "It's no different from the p-word, the c-word, the b-word." man is equivalent to woman, and boy is equivalent to girl.

You women is = to you men, whether it's snide or not. You p-words is not equivalent to you men.

Little boys= little girls. Not p-words, c-words, or b-words.

You little boys as an insult is equivalent to you little girls as an insult.

[Kurovski]

347. Is there a clearer way to say this? I honestly don't know what the meaning or intent is. (nt)

[Major Nikon]

148. Just sayin'

[whathehell]

164. Unnecessarily crude term and

I resent it, especially coming from a man.

[Pab Sungenis]

187. And yet you accuse the men of DU

of "piling on?"

[opiate69]

198. Yeah.. and of course...

whenever one even thinks of suggesting there's any coordination between them, oh, the howls of denial are loud and furious....

[RetroLounge]

330. SJW to the rescue!

RL

[MattSh]

58. I'm sure she does.

agree with that too.

[seabeyond]

61. ahhh, we get your one little post after your OP. and what is it? this. confirmation. nt

[MADem]

56. Take it up with the author of the article, the source of the headline.

Rhiannon Lucy Cosslett, of the Vagenda Magazine, blogs for the New Statesman at The V Spot


I don't know any fellows named "Rhiannon Lucy," but anything is possible I suppose...

[Roland99]

68. The group uses the term themselves (from a post down-thread)

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/amina-tyler-supporters-set-topless-jihad-day-april-4-article-1.1301311

[MADem]

72. Indeed. I don't understand the complaints that it's "DU's Fault" -- you'd

think the first order of business would be to read the cited article and do a little sourcing...?

[Roland99]

79. pffft...and go through all the work to actually read an article?

[RC]

123. And yet dozens of misandrist rape threads that blame men, but never the women that raised them, are

fine with you?

The Femen activists are risking their freedom, such as it is, and even their very lives to protest the inequality in THEIR culture (not ours), and all you can see their nudity? Your objection is that men only ogle them? Way to totally miss the point there.

[The Straight Story]

167. I don't think men here are opposed to feminists. Just some people on here and how they react

to things.

Accusing people all the time of things tends to get folks a little pissed off here and there, like:

"hence continual OPs on it to put du women in their place."

Accusing folks of being sexist, saying progressives here on DU hate women and want to put them in their place, etc - does nothing to further discussion about sexism.

Today I have posted:

Wal-Mart Disparity Memo Stays Under Wraps
Wal-Mart did not waive confidentiality over a legal memo that describes stark gender disparities in pay and promotion at the company, a federal judge ruled.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022582980

and:
Judge Wade McCree: 'Docket from hell' text was meant to flatter mistress
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022582947

Which would be nice places to discuss sexism and yet no replies really.

Maybe the problem is not the men here on DU seeing and being against sexism, maybe it is the vocal few who are always trying to tell them they don't care enough and that they are sexist themselves that pisses them off and creates snark.

[Buffalo Bull]

239. which is more oppressive the liberation or the burka?

With the liberation you have to endure the cacophony of candor
With the burka you must endure the silence of a pervasive purity

[randome]

243. Nicely put!

[whathehell]

254. Thank you...Too bad your message is too smart for the room, so to speak. n/t

[loyalsister]

281. Since it is commonly known as connected to animals

it dehumanizes woman. It's disgusting to direct it word women.

[Summer Hathaway]

350. If asked which DU poster ...

... I think is constantly demeaning and belittling women, you would be at the very top of my list. And the fact that you consistently do so under the guise of “feminism” is truly appalling.

You consistently stereotype men as ogling oafs, led by their penises and their apparent inability to interact with women on any level that isn’t, according to you, some obvious attempt to ‘shut them up’ or ‘put them in their place’, or adherence to some nefarious agenda that, in your mind, permeates everything.

That’s not a display of feminism – it’s paranoia. And while railing about how men stereotype women, you have no problem with using phrases like ‘men do this’, or ‘men think that’, without any qualification. You’ve been called on that before, by myself and others – and please spare us all the BS response that you shouldn’t have to qualify such statements, and everyone should just assume you’re not talking about all men when you use such terminology.

I doubt there is a person on DU who doesn’t know that if someone posted statements like, ”Women are into bondage, women have rape fantasies, women marry for money” without adding the qualifier “some women”, it would take the Admins a week to clean up the brain matter splattered all over DU as a result of your head having exploded.

Your particular brand of ‘feminism’ seems to rely solely on casting men in the role of the enemy, the oppressor, an agenda-following gender intent on the “pornification of women” at every turn.

Here’s a newsflash for you: Millions upon millions of men and women interact every day. They flirt, they banter about sex, they share jokes about sex – and they do so without any intent to demean themselves or each other. Millions of men – and women! – appreciate the beauty of the naked female body, and find no hidden agenda in said appreciation.

Millions of men (and women) are sexually aroused by a woman’s bared breasts; millions of men (and women) are sexually aroused by a man’s bared chest. Your problem seems to be not with the ‘sexism’ you find in every photo, every comment, every graphic, every work of art, but with the idea that sexuality is an inherent part of our nature as human beings.

But YOU persist in your notion that being a ‘feminist’ means denying one’s own sexuality, because to accept it is tantamount to accepting being seen as a sexual being to the exclusion of all else.

YOU persist in your notion that women who use words you don’t like are ‘adopting the language of the oppressors’, without any regard to the fact that women who are truly independent are free to use whatever language they see fit to use.

YOU persist in your notion that any woman who doesn’t adhere to YOUR arbitrary ‘rules’ about how a feminist conducts herself exemplifies the very idea that ALL women must behave in a narrowly-defined way – the very antithesis of women being free to express themselves as THEY see fit, as opposed to how YOU see fit.

YOU have consistently belittled and demeaned any woman who has refused to exchange the yoke of male oppression for the yoke of YOUR oppression.

YOU have belittled and demeaned any woman who refutes YOUR agenda by insinuating that they have been cowed by men and are too intellectually incompetent to recognize the “male agenda” you see everywhere, or are not intelligent enough to understand that all men are out to silence them.

YOU have consistently dismissed those women on this board who disagree with you in any way as being water-carriers for the men who are all, to hear YOU tell it, intent on supressing their rights.

I AM a feminist – and, as such, I am free to dress as I please, to say what I please, to use any words I please, to behave in any way I please – and even to bare my breasts if I choose to do so. And it is none of your fuckin’ business, in the same way it is none of any man’s fuckin’ business.

The women who went before me and sacrificed so much for equal rights did not do so in order for YOU, or any other woman, to dictate how I should conduct myself – nor dictate how I should view men, how I should interact with them, or how I should find their every statement, their every action, their every response to every situation as part of some hidden agenda to quash my rights.

YOU, and those like you, set the movement towards equal rights for all back decades every time you decree that women should conduct themselves according to YOUR agenda, as opposed to their own.

I don’t allow men to dictate how I should conduct myself. I’ll be damned if I’m going to allow a woman to do so - especially a woman who persists in seeing ALL men as stereotypical figures whose sole purpose in life is to ogle tits and act like little boys.

YOU should take a look in the mirror once in a while - it might be an enlightening experience.

[Kurovski]

390. I appreciate that.

And I appreciate that it was both kind to everyone, and so well thought out.

[Summer Hathaway]

401. And I appreciate your appreciation

... and now we are dangerously close to being a mutual appreciation society - men appreciating women, women appreciating men, women appreciating women, men appreciating men - good lord, where will all of this appreciation of each other lead to?

[Kurovski]

414. well...goodness...

maybe we could work things out? Listen to each other, speak with honest intent, and understand not everyone just wants to scorch the earth with personal rage. Not as dramatic, but better for overall health

[Summer Hathaway]

444. Well, yeah, okay

If you want to go with that "listening to each other, speaking with honest intent, and understanding not everyone just wants to scorch the earth with personal rage" thingy - that might work.

I'm in. I think the whole concept has potential.

[kurtzapril4]

520. Beautifully, Beautifully written....

and 1000% true. Every word.

[Raine1967]

522. Thank you for this.

This post gave me comfort enough to enter this thread.


I wish I had been able to express it as you did.

Peace
Raine

[2ndAmForComputers]

524. Best post in DU, ever.

[alp227]

353. So ANY sex positive feminist protest = false flag op?

You are all over the place right here.

[In_The_Wind]

10. There comes a time when whatever needs to be said to make a point will be done.

[randome]

14. Two points, actually.

[In_The_Wind]

16. I'm not afraid to add my two.

[bettyellen]

33. so you ridicule them? I guess the protest was a mistake.

[seabeyond]

36. yes. ridicule. or snark. or crude jokes. yes, a perfect example how effective this

approach is

perfect illustration. notice i avoided point, or points.

[Kurovski]

364. Yes, you were just being redundant, which in itself is a redundancy.

And don't tell me you really mean to speak for how effective the protest is, it is not your culture, it is not your nation. it is not your region, and I suspect it is not your religion.

If I wanted to undermine any movement at all, I'd send you and any two of your online "replicants" to the head of the organization.

[randome]

38. Not in the slightest. See my post below.

One of my daughters gives me plenty to think about on how women should either cover themselves up for the 'convenience' of men or be free to be themselves.

I applaud this young woman for standing up to entrenched interests. At the same time, I would be lying if I didn't say I enjoy looking at her nude body.

[seabeyond]

43. "I would be lying if I didn't say I enjoy looking at her nude body" you just have to let everyone

know that really, you da man doing what the man just gotta do. this.

[randome]

48. I'm being honest.

What about my other point? Should women cover themselves up for the 'convenience' of men? I doubt Amina thinks she is being pornographic.

[seabeyond]

53. you reinforced the point i make by your own behavior and comments in this thread. nt

[UnrepentantLiberal]

207. .

[MADem]

244. I suppose we should be grateful you didn't choose that picture

of former Senator Scott Brown....

[UnrepentantLiberal]

260. That would have been going too damn far.

[MADem]

266. Yes, cruel and unusual, certainly!!! nt

[bettyellen]

46. oh please- the "two points" joke is totally a childish joke about their bodies.

not sure why you'd pretend otherwise.
On paper, maybe you're a supporter, but you're also happy to ogle and make stupid remarks about their bodies.

[randome]

51. I can make a joke about anything.

It's part of who I am. Not everything you don't like is meant as a 'statement'.

[bettyellen]

67. and we here can comment on your juvenile reaction to breasts.

[randome]

71. I'd prefer a dismissive chuckle for the childish jokes.

And a more refined discussion of the other issues.

[bettyellen]

75. you overestimate our interest in your preferences, LOL. Don't give a shit that you enjoy

looking at nudity, don't care that you'd prefer a chuckle either. See how that works?

You were having a refined discussion? Where? I thought that was two other posters on this thread.

[MoclipsHumptulips]

280. Point me to any of your so called

'refined discussions' of anything.

[randome]

282. Well...

Post #s 19, 35, 64, 69, 89, 114, 125, 193, 272, 274, 276.

[LanternWaste]

76. 7th-grade vulgarity is rationalized by the man-child as satire

Men who immolate themselves against social mores to make a point receive laudatory sympathies, condolences, empathy and sensitivity.

Women who disrobe themselves against social mores to make a point receive the snickering giggles of prepubescent middle school petulance by the man-child who tells himself how clever he is.

This is, unfortunately, the norm in middle America. 7th-grade vulgarity is rationalized by the man-child as satire and he perceives his weaknesses as a strength.

[randome]

83. I believe I've made some other points in this thread that rise a bit above that 7th grade level.

[seabeyond]

84. thank you. this is perfectly said. i said what i had to in this thread, now the gigglin' men will

come in and declare what a prude and man hater i am.

so i am outta this thread. but, you said it perfectly.

[SamReynolds]

518. You have an awful lot of rage.

I got the 'joke'. It was silly and childish, and the only harm it caused anyone was in getting your hackles up. Which is apparently easy to do. Having read through many of these exchanges, it is quite plain that you really do work at finding oppression and sexism whether it is there or not. I can only imagine what demons haunt you so.

[bettyellen]

87. yes, because the truth of the 7th grade mindset is too fucking sad to acknowledge....

yet, here it is.

[polly7]

12. I wouldn't condemn anyone for proudly using their own body to advance any worthwhile cause.

Femen’s use of breasts as a way of garnering media attention is both cynical and knowing. Those who argue that flashing nipples undermines the central, anti-patriarchal message seem to forget that the nipples are the message. Not only does Femen’s assertive toplessness show women reclaiming and taking control of their bodies, but it’s also a very effective way of commenting on the vagaries of our sexist society. “Oh, look, how tediously predictable,” the activists seem to be saying. “All it takes for some media exposure is, well, some exposure.” They’re manipulating what they call (rather brilliantly, I think) “the beasty lust of patriarchy”. Boobs obscure the message only if you’re conservatively determined to view them as uniquely sexual body parts. Perhaps that’s why Femen has had more success in France, a country that has historically found tits less scary, than in the UK.

If you care to react abusively or pig-headedly to what amounts to several pairs of naked breasts being used for the most noble of goals – the emancipation of women – then go ahead. All you’re doing is proving Femen’s point, over and over again.

[elehhhhna]

30. "brilliant" manipulation of the "lust of patriarchy"

REALLY?

[polly7]

45. REALLY!! nt.

[MineralMan]

13. Get their tits out? Really. You couldn't come up

with a better way to say that? How about "expose their breasts?"

The story you pasted didn't use the word "tits." Stay classy, OK?

[maddezmom]

17. It is the title of the article at the link n/t

[MineralMan]

20. OK. Exact titles are not required in GD.

[Occulus]

530. Are exact titles forbidden in GD?

[MineralMan]

531. Some actual titles would get hidden by a jury.

I'm sure of that. Depends what the title says.

[polly7]

18. It's the title of the article. nt.

[randome]

24. It got my attention.

[MineralMan]

26. OK. It got miine, too.

I don't have to like it, though, so I don't. I get to express my dislike for the word here, I believe.

[randome]

28. Always.

[Kurovski]

311. And the young woman in the article is confronting the source of sexism, while you continue to worry

over words.

She is confronting religion, which is the fountainhead of sexism. confront that and you'll actually be doing something.

Those women use that word. It's fair to say they care less about your squeamishness and more about their plight in regard to their freedom.

[MineralMan]

319. She did not post here.

A Duer did. I will express my opinion as I choose. Thanks for your interest.

[Kurovski]

326. And thank you for letting me know where your interest lies.

I'll tell you that if someone posted a thread that was humorlessly blatant or abusive, I would be right there by your side in complaining. Actually I would just alert on it and save some steam.

\At times you appear to be your own worst enemy when it comes to these issues. You and around 20 or-so others. IMO

[seabeyond]

37. yes. to make a joke. wow. that was effective. nt

[TeeYiYi]

41. You're mistaken...

That's exactly the title of the story at the link provided.

Google the title. You'll see.

TYY

[ProgressiveProfessor]

23. Its a trap!!!

A colleague who is a linguist told me a funny story, claimed it was true: On Islamic boards there were stories circulating that such events were setups designed to lure Islamic men in who would then get their beards and/or balls cut off. He said the story took various forms and has legs in that community.

[Roland99]

31. It's the message being spread, not the frickin' title of the article, people!!

These women are risking their very lives by doing this. Esp. considering they live in areas of grossly misdirected religious fundamentalism that does treat them as property and part and parcel of a man's "honor".

It will literally take centuries to root out that dark ages type of thinking (if it ever really does happen completely globally) but it's acts like this that will spark some type of change, even if on a localized basis.

Myself, I envy their courage.

[randome]

35. One of my daughters resists wearing a bra.

I'm forever torn between telling her it doesn't matter and trying to ensure she doesn't get oggled when I take her to the gym.

It's a painful dilemma for me with no easy answer that I can see.

I applaud my daughter's courage but at the same time I want to forever protect her from 'causing a commotion'.

[Roland99]

40. Interesting how geography affects so many things

In Western Europe, she'd be one of many...hardly enough to cause a commotion.

In many parts of the Middle East, she'd risk imprisonment (or worse).

In the U.S., she'd be subject to banal utterings from testosterone-laden neanderthals.

[seabeyond]

42. right. doing exactly what men expect of women. to pornify them. and when they do this in front of

bersoluni to make a point and he laughs, leers, snarks, degrades and puts women using their sexuality in place, really accomplishes a whole lot but give the pig what he wants.

ya, that

[Roland99]

47. You realize this took place in Tunisia, right?

[seabeyond]

57. this seems to be of significance to you men. ya, ok. i do. so. nt

[Roland99]

63. Do you not understand the cultural climate there?

Doing something like that here in the U.S. would probably get her a mention on TMZ or some vapid other infotainment show.

Doing it there literally puts her life at risk due to the rampant religious fund-a-mentals in control there. *THAT* is why the message is a powerful one, regardless of whether you approve or not.

[kurtzapril4]

111. Bingo.

No use trying to use a rational argument, though. She did it so men could ogle her, and that's it.

[Roland99]

113. I know, right?

It's obvious seabeyond is focusing on some of the typical male responses to seeing a naked woman instead of the message this group is trying to get across.

In that respect, she's as guilty as the men in those situations: objectifying the women instead of seeing past their physical appearance and focusing on the message.

[kurtzapril4]

116. Bingo again!! n/t

[Roland99]

118. BTW, thanks for stereotyping me

you seem quite eager to lump all men into one category.


pity.

[loudsue]

39. This young girl is risking her LIFE. She knows it. She knows it is no world for her daughters to

grow up in. It is the CULTURE that has made those breasts she is showing to be wrong to even have them. There are other ways for some women to express their defiance. This is her way. It's easy to sit back and be armchair quarterbacks, but I remember in the 1960's & '70s when American women were burning bras, and doing outrageous things to liberate their bodies from our government/church culture, and I believe it takes ALL types of women with courage to speak to ALL types of oppression.

This girl will likely not live another 3 years, and will also likely die a horrible, torturous death. I say leave her boobs to whatever she wants to do with 'em. I DO NOT CONDEMN HER IN ANY WAY.

[polly7]

52. Perfect. +1000. nt.

[seabeyond]

59. except the burning of the bra never really happened. it was a ploy used by the other side to cause

problems.

[loudsue]

127. Not true. I was in Washington DC watching it happen.

The protests were real. Saying it never happened is what the other side wishes we all believed....oh, no big deal! There wasn't a fight! There wasn't a revolution.

Yes, it was a revolution, and yes, there was a big fight.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

209. If seabeyond says it didn't happen

it didn't happen.

[loudsue]

227. Got it. My bad. n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

140. neither do i and i support her form of messaging

[bettyellen]

145. I would never condemn her. But I worry about her. It seems the only way she can have an impact

is to put her life in grave danger. Such a conundrum.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

161. oh yeah i worry too and i think she is immensely brave

[Blue_Tires]

49. Another related piece for discussion I posted earlier:

Rise of the naked female warriors

Known for its topless protesters, Femen is a worldwide movement against patriarchy. But are the activists' breasts obscuring the message?

One day last summer, Inna Shevchenko went into a forest outside Kiev, to learn how to use a chainsaw. The lumberjacks who were instructing her couldn't work out why she was so keen. "They thought I was just a crazy blonde," she says, shaking her white curls. "I was acting like: 'Oh really?'" She affects a coy, clueless demeanour. "'That's how you do it? Great!'"

The next day she went to a hilltop overlooking Kiev, and stripped to a pair of red denim shorts, worn with heavy boots, leather gloves, and a mask to protect her eyes. The Pussy Riot verdict was due that day, and in tribute to the Russian punk activists – and to mark her opposition to all religions – Inna proceeded to chop down a 13ft wooden cross that had been there since 2005. Despite her preparations, it wasn't easy. "When I started to cut it, I thought, 'it's not possible to destroy it,'" she says. But after seven minutes it fell, and she posed against the stump for invited journalists. With "Free Riot" scrawled across her bare breasts, she held out her arms to mirror the figure of Christ now lying on the ground.

Death threats arrived instantly. She says there were official calls for her arrest, and Russian TV reported that the cross was a memorial to the victims of Stalinism. Inna denies this, but Ukrainian journalists repeated the claim, and anger towards her sharpened. Men she suspected of being secret service agents immediately began milling outside her apartment, and a few days later, she was woken at 6am by the sound of her front door being kicked in. She escaped, jumping through a back window, then down from a first floor balcony, and made her way to Warsaw with $50, a mobile phone and her passport. She feared jail if she returned to Kiev, so some days later, she travelled to France, where women had expressed interest in joining Femen, the feminist group she runs with three Ukrainian friends.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/20/naked-female-warrior-femen-topless-protesters

[Roland99]

54. Her life and freedom are in danger for her daring to think and act independently

how dare she?!

[UnrepentantLiberal]

211. Great article.

Interesting read.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

55. Amina Tyler's Femen supporters declare Topless Jihad Day after death-by-stoning threats for topless

So you can see the pics and judge for yourself:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/amina-tyler-supporters-set-topless-jihad-day-april-4-article-1.1301311

[Spitfire of ATJ]

62. I get sick of "moral" being defined as "prude"....

Especially when those prudes think sex is bad but killing is fine.

[TeeYiYi]

70. I support Femen 110%...

...and completely approve of their style of activism.

TYY

[lunatica]

77. Tits?

The writer's point would have been quite different had he used the word breasts. Aah! What a difference one little word makes to show people where your head is.

[Roland99]

82. and yet another person who can't be bothered to click a link and read a little.

[lunatica]

93. The author lost me at tits.

I don't care what comes after. If you want me to read what you have to say don't start off by being offensive to women.

[Roland99]

106. fine...only focus on the article's title then (the OP used the article's title...written by a woman)

[Kurovski]

313. Can you overcome yourself and your reactions ? Because it's important.

She is confronting religion, which is the fountainhead of sexism and oppression. Language is not the source of sexism. it never was.

Could you do the same for gay rights, racism, or sexism? Confront religion in a meaningful way? We have it easier in the west. With our freedom We can inspire others to see, rather than shock them awake.

Those women in their movement use that word. It's fair to say they care less about your squeamishness and pre-conception and more about their plight in regard to their freedom.

Young people use words older peoople very much dislike. There must be some method to their madness.

[MADem]

108. "He" is named Rhiannon Lucy.....

"His" head isn't anywhere....but you can take it up with her...

[lunatica]

122. In that case I have even less respect for the author

Amina is an immensely brave woman who is deliberately doing something that puts her life in mortal danger. I want to reach out and protect her and hope with all my might that she isn't killed or hurt. To reduce her actions of deliberately breaking Fundamental religious laws by showing her breasts and calling them 'tits' is gross.

But then I've always hated that word. It's disgusting and demeaning in my opinion and I believe it's meant to be by whoever uses it.

[Roland99]

126. Then you despise the group, too. They used that term themselves

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/amina-tyler-supporters-set-topless-jihad-day-april-4-article-1.1301311

[lunatica]

136. The word topless was used two times and it's from the same quote

I'm pretty sure that the original quote was translated into English and being bi-lingual myself I wonder how well it translates. The word used may be slang or not.

The word 'topless' was used 8 times in the article and the word 'breasts' was used twice.

And I don't despise anyone who fights the way these women do.

[MADem]

129. Take it up with "Rhiannon."

From the context of her article, I do not believe she was "demeaning" anyone with her use of specific language, but that's just my read of her remarks. I'd say she was championing the protester and the cause.

I don't speak for her, but I would wager that she--and the organization that is behind this effort--uses the word precisely for the visceral reaction that it evokes from people, including you.

You noticed. Now you have 'awareness.'

That's what they were after.

[lunatica]

150. I already knew this story

So I've been aware for a while. But thank you trying to educate me. I say that in all sincerity, because you have no way of knowing if I know about these women or not.

What they use in their slogan is obviously meant to shock and bring awareness. I'm a lifelong feminist and I get it. I know of many groups who name themselves or call themselves the slang words, but that doesn't give the rest of us license to do the same. I also think they have the right to name themselves and their cause whatever they want and I respect that.

When I was younger women fought very hard to have terms like 'tits' and 'broad' stopped. We wanted our breasts to be called breasts. Perhaps I am a product of my generation but I have always felt it was a terribly demeaning word.

I have first hand experience as a large breasted woman. From demeaning words to gropings and lascivious gazes I've seen it all. It is demeaning. Take my word for it.

[MADem]

171. I am an old fart. I also am a multi-cultural one.

I also understand the very real -- and frankly, not understood by born-and-raised westerners -- mores of "Middle Eastern" culture. This "honor" stuff isn't a game over there. It can and very often does result in anything from public shaming to beatings, mild or severe, or even a painful and brutal death.

You have to see a woman assaulted on the street--not for the purposes of groping or leering--but for "improper clothing" or "insufficient modesty" to appreciate the reality of this, I guess.

I would not recommend this sort of protest in that end of the world. It's not the crude language (I don't think names have any power if one refuses to give any to them), it's the visceral outrage that will ensue and the very real danger to the women who participate in this sort of thing.

Young people today don't always appreciate or understand the battles that those who came before them endured. They can't conceptualize things like segregation, or newspaper job listings divided by MEN and WOMEN, unequal pay for the same job, last hired/first fired, never mind a "Colored" rest room, waiting room, or water fountain. They don't know a time when it was difficult to impossible (never mind illegal) to vote. They use (racist or sexist) words that are offensive to older people as catch-phrases or terms of endearment. If we challenge them about their language, they will call us out-of-step fogies who don't "get" that the vernacular has moved on. We won't convince them otherwise.

However, the women who choose to do this are adults and are free to make their own choices, regardless of my opinions. I just hope the participants have up-to-date passports and pre-stamped visas in the event that they have do a runner in short order. They're in real danger.

[loudsue]

241. Well said, MADem. Those of us old enough to have fought for women's rights

back in the 60's and 70's know how hard it is to make the world see women differently. Hell....the GLBT community is up against it today. Almost without fail, courageous people lose their lives in these fights for justice and against religious idiocy.

[redqueen]

132. +1

[UnrepentantLiberal]

149. I agree with this.

I don't like word "tits". I think it's offensive.

[lunatica]

155. It has offended me personally all my life

For a little more explanation I lay it out in post #150 above.

[muriel_volestrangler]

242. It's using a well-known sexist phrase, to make a point

"Get your tits out" is a stereotypical sexist thing to say, in the UK. If she had written 'breasts', it would not have the same impact, or meaning.

However, the reaction on DU seems to show to me that "tits" is held to be far worse a word in the USA than in the UK. In the UK, it's around the same level as 'boob'.

[lunatica]

246. It's pretty personal to me.

You can get an idea of why if you read my response above. It's comment #150. I'm a Feminist from way back in the 1960s. We fought hard against the use of that word.

I think the group itself using that word, if indeed that's the correct translation, is obviously using it for its shock value and I understand that. They certainly have my full support in their effort and I fear for their lives and they're quite a lot braver than we ever had to be. I do get it.

What I object to is someone else using that word just because they do.

[Politicub]

78. What a courageous woman - she should be an inspiration to progressives everywhere

She's taking a major risk to gain visibility for an important and just cause. I support her and other women who are fighting for social justice 100 percent.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

86. Looks like they hacked the Femen website

and put up this image:



http://femen.org/en

[seabeyond]

90. violence/rape/threats or porinified titty jokes. just depends the side the man wants to stand.

whore/slut.

about says it all.

and this is what women have been fighting and speaking out against. this is what the conversation on du has been of late. perfect example. women. shut the fuck up or death threats or tit jokes to demean.

good job boys.

[Roland99]

99. The exact reason why this group's message is a good one and an effective one.

It brings to light the brain-dead, banal reactions in men and the arcane, draconian reaction in the fund-a-mentals who control places like Tunisia and put this woman's life in danger.

It's bringing this backward type of thinking into the open for it to be shown as the vile behaviour that it really is.

If it can effect some type of change where women around the world, esp. in places like this where they are treated as property, are no longer afraid to think and act independently, then we are on the right path toward a better world.

[polly7]

103. Absolutely. nt.

[seabeyond]

105. why havent i seen you addressing it the last two weeks it has been cheered on du? or anyone else

that is now supposedly gonna take up the arms. or any of the other time it has been addressed here. and ya, point way over your head.

[Roland99]

107. Oh, I'm sorry I haven't read every thread on DU GD over the last two weeks

Sorry I was working out of town the last two weeks.

Sorry I ventured out of the Economy forum for a few minutes.

Sorry I don't meet your lofty expectations of a DU poster.

[Pab Sungenis]

197. Some of us are sick of being attacked.

And some of us don't have the time we once did to hang out here.

[Kurovski]

341. Toxicity.

Last edited Fri Mar 29, 2013, 10:14 PM - Edit history (1)

You are told over and over again when you ask why people steer clear of some threads.

It's because the level of discourse becomes toxic and personal.

You were informed in Meta.

People point it out in threads. But you continue to have a monologue with yourself on what everyone elses motivations are.

[JI7]

284. not really, things like Girls risking their lives by going to School does more to show

the backwardness of certain people, places, laws etc.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

101. Uh, seabeyond, those guys are on the same side you are.

They hate and fear sex and nudity.

[cliffordu]

138. ^^^^^^^^~THIS~^^^^^^^^^

[JI7]

289. she doesn't hate or fear sex and nudity

she has never called for laws to punish people for for such things as the fundies do. but these people want girls who go to school to be killed.

[Nye Bevan]

91. A topless woman with a pro-feminist message scrawled on her breasts.

What a perfect setup for a controversial DU thread.

[maddezmom]

104. True enough

And the protesting topless women has been referred to as a stripper.

[Roland99]

119. interestingly enough, that reference was by seabeyond.

ironic

[bettyellen]

135. she was pointing out how men say they love strippers and then say degrading things....

about them, same as with this protester- out came the tit jokes, before any other reaction from many.
Get it now?

[Roland99]

137. which only reinforces the fact that she's ignoring the MESSAGE of the group's actions and, instead

focusing on objectifying the women, much the same as others in this thread.

she has not made one salient point about the actual content of the article in the OP.

[bettyellen]

143. the article does debate whether these protests are effective because of the immature and sexist

reactions they often get. (and have gotten here)
If it's worth getting more press if their message gets diluted that way.
Didn't you read the article? She most certainly is discussing points raised in it.

[Roland99]

146. yes, the *article* does, but seabeyond does not.

like I said, she's focusing on certain posters here, not the content of the article and has avoided direct questions from me re: that content while objectifying and stereotyping me, personally.

[maddezmom]

200. Actually she expands on it here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125518236

Topless protester = stripper

[zappaman]

204. Of course it does.

[redqueen]

208. Dishonest characterization. "Strippin" as in taking clothes off. Not "stripper" as in exotic dancing

FFS.

[Puglover]

278. Hello you!

Haven't seen you in a zillion years and wanted give you a quick hug. I am not here much anymore. This thread is a pristine example of why not. But seeing your name (and posts) made the visit worthwhile.

[MADem]

273. And the article under discussion is written by a preeminent young feminist who has an astounding

resume for such a young age--her magazine is quite polished, and her essays are thoughtful and articulate. I haven't seen anything save complaints from her detractors--if they have a record of activism, it's not present on the internet like the works of the women in this group.

Unfortunately, too many people didn't look her up, or even realize this entire protest was being publicized by a group of organized feminists (not some leering "he&quot who are the future of the feminist movement, and who have their own ideas about what's "OK" and what's not.

I'm an old fart and this kind of "in your face" display is well outside my comfort zone. I don't consider it "shocking" or "sexy" or "Oooh la la"--I consider it unseemly and undignified, because that's how I was brought up. That said, these young women could give a flying crap what I think, and that's completely fine with me --they're the future, I'm the past, and I can understand why they're doing what they do. I admire their courage even while I question their judgment and fear for their safety.

[stevenleser]

95. I support Femen. As I said before in a post in the Feminists group...

... this kind of protest is shockingly effective in a number of ways.

1. It always seems to get maximum press exposure.

2. If/when authorities arrest the women, the optics for the authorities are bad. Arresting or being physical with a topless woman always carries the visual connotation of arresting someone who is in a vulnerable state. It has a brutal appearance.

3. The act of being topless or naked, enhances any extreme actions taken by the women and shows you how serious they are about any cause. Its not unlike setting ones self on fire, or chaining ones self to a building or tree or something like that. Obviously there are different degrees, self immolation is a much more severe statement, but it tells the world, I'm willing to sacrifice and do something that is shocking and potentially damaging to me because I am just that serious about what I am doing or saying.

And like any protest, no matter how crazy or shocking or how much you disagree, some of the measurement has to be how effective it is in getting the message out. I think that speaks for itself here.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

141. yes, additionally her message is in keeping with her choice of messaging

she is talking about owning her body, so its not like its irrelevantly exposing her body

[stevenleser]

151. +infinity. That is an important point.

Her body and her breasts are not about someone else's honor.

She own's her body. That's the message. Exactly right!

[Gormy Cuss]

277. +1

[idwiyo]

97. K&R

[randome]

110. Yours is probably the most clever post in this thread.

As if a 'K&R' was needed.

[idwiyo]

112. Thank you! Just wanted to make sure this OP stays visible.

[LittleBlue]

124. Damned if they do, damned if they don't

Show tits and get attention but have people write off your cause, or show no tits and have people ignore you.

Tough choice. There were some very good looking Femen women protesting prostitution in the Ukraine before Euro 2012. Now, see? I went to look at their tits but remembered their cause. So they drew attention to what they wanted. Did Femen make any lasting impact on Ukrainian prostitution? I don't know.

More power to them if they want to do this. Not sure it will accomplish anything but it's their bodies to do with as they please.

[redqueen]

144. This woman is deeply confused.

Women in the ME doing this are risking their lives to make the important point that their bodies belong to them and that the mindset behind honor killings and stuff like that has to end, now.

But ... Western women hopping on this particular bandwagon? Sorry, but Western women showing off their "tits" isn't a great statement. No, quite the opposite.

And this is obvious, because although there ARE non-porn-compliant bodies used in this way, those aren't the ones who get media attention. I shouldn't need to explain further why this method is weakly effective at best, and at worst, flatly counterproductive.

And Western MEN hopping on this bandwagon? Yeah, I'm just gonna leave that there.

[Roland99]

153. Who said anything about Western women?

The article refers to a Tunisian branch of a Ukrainian group.

[redqueen]

157. Her closing line: "Fuck your morals, indeed. I may even get my own out in solidarity."

This April 4 gimmick/stunt/whatever been making the rounds on facebook, with tons of Western women pledging to send in their own topless pics. Of course this writer didn't mention that little phenomenon, or wonder if it might be in any way effective in changing anything in the ME, much less examine the even wider implications. Too inconvenient.

The article is all over the place.

[Squinch]

372. Yes. How many of the Western images referenced in this thread are of women over 30?

Abouuuuuuuttttt....ummmm...

...zero.

So your point is well founded. But many here will steadfastly refuse to see it. Till death.

[ElboRuum]

147. The fact that it gets attention is all the proof you need.

If we lived in a world with even ever so slightly more evolved attitudes about sexuality and personal ownership of one's body, a pair of boobies exposed to the wind would not cause such an uproar.

At most, you'd get a "meh".

Clearly we don't live in that world. What I find unsurprising that this clearly has caused the religious people to lose their heads (exposing one's breasts to make a political point could be contagious, heaven forfend). You would also think that such an action would be blessed by a community who would welcome this chagrin of arguably one of the world's most patriarchal religions. Alas, you'd find that not the case after reading some of this thread. This too, very unsurprising. You know, because BOOBIEZ!!11!!111ones!11eleven!11.

You can't win for losing, apparently. There's always someone who has a problem with what you're doing or how you're doing it.

[Major Nikon]

156. Boobies tend to make people lose their mind

Which is why this message is so effective. The fact that some feminists are going to once again ally with the religious conservatives and declare it's wrong is not all that surprising. The fact that these people think it's wrong is what makes it all that much more effective.

[redqueen]

158. That kind of nasty over simplification says a lot about you.

some feminists are going to once again ally with the religious conservatives and declare it's wrong

Bullshit. Idiotic, facile and dishonest.

[Major Nikon]

160. And yet realistic

Just sayin'

Cheers!

[redqueen]

162. If by 'realistic' you mean 'seems logical enough for people with a tenuous grasp on logic to agree'

then yes.

[Major Nikon]

163. Perhaps

Or it could be just finding commonality between those who want to tell others what they can or should do with their own bodies.

[ElboRuum]

172. The fact that it's on both sides...

...is most troubling. In this society, what was done might merit tabloid TV's attention. There are real consequences to be had there, and quite a few around here don't seem to grasp the bravery in such an act given those very real consequences.

All they seem to be able to focus on is "why did you need to show boobs"? Because she CHOSE to. And it was apparently a choice some around here didn't particularly like judging by the shame they give this person and also to those around who show support. So be it.

Problem is, choice is liberal. Control isn't and by corollary neither is the shame used to establish it. When will they (both sides of this equation) ever learn? I suppose it will take scores more mammaries exposed to garner political attention to even begin the learning process. Until then, please accept the predictable uproars as unavoidable.

[quinnox]

152. these are very brave women, our puritan culture really doesn't mean anything

and is a bad way to look at what they are doing. There is nothing wrong with the female body, it is beautiful. And this is a good way to protest for their culture, because it is very shocking to their male and fundamentalist religious based culture. Sure, these women are beautiful and probably would make for good fashion models, but that is besides the point.

[redqueen]

159. LOL... puritan culture.

http://www.cbs.com/shows/victorias_secret/

Yeah.

Girls gang raped in classrooms, boys watching and masturbating to porn in classrooms.

We're such puritans!

[Roland99]

165. Puritan compared to our more liberal neighbors across the Atlantic.

And esp. within the Republican party which represents a large portion of the U.S.

[redqueen]

178. Facile analysis.

Pretending that all matters related to sex are easily summed up and categorized is pointless.

France's own experience has missed wide exposure in the spotlight under which the international community has scrutinized the public and official responses in places like India and here in the US in Ohio.

I wonder why that is.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/09/french-gang-rape-trial-suburbs


And yeah, I'll pass on the Page 3 shit, thanks.

[Roland99]

181. wow...really?

rape is not a puritannical aspect of a society. Rape is a crime of violence and control, not about sex.

[redqueen]

186. Rape culture is everywhere, that's the point. This idea that 'puritanism' is some big issue

is bullshit. INSULTING bullshit.

To me, rape culture is rather more important than whether "tits" can be shown liberally.

And as for this idiotic argument that if women "get their tits out" that it will get attention... look for all the awesome media coverage of their protests against porn and prostitution.

[Roland99]

192. I agree that a culture that condones or allows rape is an important thing to fight against

but, in the case of the person at the heart of the article', rape is likely just one aspect of a culture and treats women as property (But one that is not discussed in the article). You're trying to conflate this article with different subjects (sexuality and violence). The two may be intertwined but they are not directly related. Rape is not sexual, it's violent.

What this group Femen is protesting (in terms of the context of this article) is more about personal sexuality for women in repressed societies such as that in Tunisia.

[redqueen]

199. Yes, the situation in the ME is quite different. But I didn't conflate them, the writer did.

Remember the quote I posted? Her closing line?

Remember my criticism that she entirely ignored this aspect of the issue she's discussing?

What does it say to you that FEMEN's protests against porn and prostitution get no coverage?

All these things are running along a continuum of misogyny. The misogyny of the right is different than the misogyny of the left, but they are two sides of the same coin.

Maybe this tactic will help women in the ME. I support them in their efforts, but I don't delude myself into thinking that if I post a picture of my 'tits' on facebook, I'm somehow helping them.

And meanwhile, here on DU, we have men talking about how horrible 'puritans' here are, completely ignoring the issue, and all the different dynamics involved. Is it intentional? Is it disruptive?

[randome]

205. Any 'puritan' reference is obviously defensiveness, IMO,

[Roland99]

212. you conveniently chose the very last line, one written in a flippant manner by the author

as for other protests of this group, I know nothing of them.

I ventured in GD from a link I saw on the home page and came across this thread (among many others that I also read) and felt that this woman and her group are extremely brave to do something like that in their country given the repressive elements there.

I haven't the time nor the inclination to research every single topic that comes up here in GD.


I agree, though, that posting random topless pics on FB or whereever is pointless. Want to make a difference? Go to Tunisia and join these women personally or do it on the steps of the Capitol or someplace that would garner attention.

[redqueen]

213. There is no "her group".

She posted two pics on FEMEN's facebook page. FEMEN is not based in the ME and does not face the same kind of risk that women in the ME face. The author of this piece does at least call attention to the issue of the serious risk this woman took.

There's now a thread here with a link to a petition, and other than that it is solely made up of pictures of Western women posing topless. Which is intended solely to help Amina, somehow, I'm sure.

[Roland99]

216. Oh?

Both pictures were posted on the Facebook page of the Tunisian branch of the feminist protest group Femen

[redqueen]

219. Confusion over semantics.

Yes, the women in the Tunisian branch of FEMEN who join this action (how many of those are there?) are very brave to do so.

Most of the women hopping on this 'I'll post my 'tits' too!' For Amina! bandwagon are not from the ME.

[quinnox]

168. remember the national uproar over Janet Jackson's nipple being exposed?

It went on for weeks, a top news story and controversy. That is a good example of how puritan our culture really is, its a leftover from history we should move past.

[Roland99]

169. Exactly.

[redqueen]

174. Rules about nipples on broadcast tv prove exactly jack shit.

That's a tiny technicality. Look at the big picture, that is meaningful. Stupid laws which fly in the face of reason despite the ocean of pornified shit flowing on cable (and on broadcast tv, as long as nipples aren't visible) only prove how ridiculous this idea that this country is 'puritan' is.

[opiate69]

175. Not only that, but the FCCs crackdown in the aftermath of "NippleGate" is still observable..

One small but significant example, prior to that, rock stations were getting away with playing uncensored versions of songs by big acts (Tool's "Sober", The Who's "Who Are You, etc.. ) but since the fines were increased so dramatically, and since oversight was stepped up, that's not happening anymore.

[quinnox]

180. yup. the remnants of puritan culture are everywhere

it is not hard to see them if you look. This country is still living in olden times compared to some European countries regarding how they view nakedness and human sexuality. France is a prime example. Their movies are shocking to a lot of Americans. We are still backwards in this country.

[LittleBlue]

240. Bingo

Our puritanical nature came from Britain.


I'll give you a guess as to which countries have the highest teen pregnancy rates in the developed world. All Anglophone, all British-influenced. #1 US, #2 New Zealand, #3 Britain

Source: OECD

[UnrepentantLiberal]

188. Yep,

because everyone knows that when a man sees a naked woman his head is overwhelmed with thoughts of rape. The rape statistics in France must be astronomical.

[quinnox]

194. its remarkable how often she puts the word "rape" in almost every post

Sometimes on things that have absolutely nothing to do with that rather disturbing topic. One could say there is a bit of an obsession even.

[CBGLuthier]

202. It is almost a Godwinesque Phenomena

[quinnox]

206. yup. its something I have noticed

I can almost see a comedy skit being developed around it.

"I went to the store today." "So, did you hear about any rapes waiting in line?"

"I want to go see a movie" "I bet someone gets raped in the movie."

"So, how about the Dodgers this year?" "Never mind that, have you seen the rape statistics recently?"

[MADem]

510. I thought it was just me who noticed that.

I'm starting to wonder about the agenda, there.

[redqueen]

195. Gang-rape trial shocks France and sparks row over justice system

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/09/french-gang-rape-trial-suburbs

[EOTE]

203. Bingo? nt

[whathehell]

166. If men like you, Matt, want to talk about women's body parts, you need to lose the crude terminology

Try "boobs", or, if you're not TOO afraid of having your masculinity challenged, you might

even try the correct terminology of "breasts".

[Roland99]

170. and yet another person who can't be bothered to click a link and read a little.

Matt did not use the term. The article's author, a British woman, made up the title.

[whathehell]

183. Um, no. Read post #176 and get a clue.

[Roland99]

196. project much?

your faux indignation is duly noted, though.

[whathehell]

250. Read definitions much, lol?

because if you knew the definition of "project" you'd know your question makes no sense

[Roland99]

251. no, you told me to get a clue.

That was obviously a projection from yourself.

[whathehell]

252. Right...For all your pissing & moaning about people "not reading the entire post"

You didn't do it yourself.

[Roland99]

261. *I* didn't read the entire post????

I quote your reply:

"If men like you, Matt, want to talk about women's body parts, you need to lose the crude terminology"


do you understand your projection yet??

[MattSh]

173. Or maybe...

you should click the link and actually read the title of the article.

Who the hell am I to correct the woman who wrote the article? If it's good enough for her, then I'm OK with it.

Or is a proper male always supposed to go around and tell a woman what terminology to use?

[whathehell]

176. Or maybe...

you could have either NOT used it in the subject line, or if you did,

put the title in QUOTE marks so that the authorship would have

been clear.

Bag the faux concern about what a "proper" man should do, because if

you really gave a shit, you'd have picked one of the two options noted above.

[MattSh]

182. It's the title of the article.

So sorry if it doesn't meet your approval.

[Roland99]

185. don't sweat it, MattSh

It's obvious there are some self-labeled feminists up here who are beyond the pale and see anything that doesn't fit within their little world of acceptable terms and behaviour as affront to their beliefs and to feminism and women's rights. Their zealotry blinds them.

[whathehell]

249. A title not your own deserves quote marks

Heard of those?

[whathehell]

255. No shit. As I pointed out, that's why it needs quotation marks.

Duhhh.

[polly7]

258. Why so nasty?

There are probably hundreds of thousands of OP's here that are done in this exact same way. You're going to be awful busy correcting them all for it.

[whathehell]

263. Why?

because like other feminists on this thread, i objected to

the unnecessarily crude title of the OP. The poster than responded that the op was the

original title of the article. My response to that is was that he should have then used quotation marks

to indicate that. He responded with defensive remarks including a sarcastic "sorry if it

offends you"..Yeah, right.

I'm no more "nasty" than the many here who have NO clue -- or interest -- in

showing any respect toward women.

[polly7]

264. Whatever. nt.

[whathehell]

265. Yeah.

I had a feeling it would go right over your head.

[polly7]

268. LOL!

First you accused him of making up a nasty title just to offend women here, then you're PISSED he didn't use quotation marks when you obviously couldn't even bother to read the link. Now it's his fault for offending you for those horrible, disrespectful things, plus the topic of the thread itself - a brave woman using HER OWN BODY to fight for her rights. If only nudity (pornification!) could be controlled as easily as you try to control the posting habits of others here, heh??

[whathehell]

286. Gee, you didn't strike me as the sharpest tack in the shed

But I didn't think you were illiterate as well!

Please show us where I "accused him of making up a nasty title just to offend women"...Duh.

[polly7]

287. You showed your near illiteracy by not being able to understand the simple concept

that the title was the title of the argument. You were wrong, you struck out, you were wrong again, and have to resort to insults.
I don't know you to say what you've struck me as previously, but I'll certainly put you in the slug category after this.

[whathehell]

290. Sorry, honey, but grammar and punctuation,

which neither you nor the OP seem to understand, unfortunately,

is what indicates that a title is not your own...There's no particular "concept"

beyond that in this case, which is in need of understanding

Good try with the "big word" though, LOL.

Like I said, "not the sharpest tack in the shed".

Now post something else to show us how TRULY clueless you are.

[randome]

291. Look, you two.

You've taken a perfectly good thread of people trashing one another regarding a woman's choice to be nude and turned it into this grammar-porn.

SHAME ON YOU BOTH!!!

[whathehell]

295. Awwww

I'm all a-scared and 'shamed.

[polly7]

296. That was the point.

If you can't get the majority outraged sufficiently over something serious like a woman daring to use her own body any way she chooses, nitpick, insult and cry like a baby over anything you possibly can.

[polly7]

292. Ummmm ....... eeeuw. I'm not your 'honey'

and you're not my or anyone else's here's teacher. You don't get to lecture and scold and bully and insult without comment. I used a 'big' word? Did you have to google it? I know, I know ...... it's embarrassing being wrong so many times - solution - read first next time before you try so hard to make anyone else bad over something you didn't take the time to understand. Are you alright though? You seem a little ....... off, to be so invested in your insults. Having a bad day?

[whathehell]

298. Literal minded too, I see?

Awww...Did I try to "make someone bad"?....You're such a MARVEL with the language, LOL

[polly7]

299. Ohhh. My bad. I skipped a word. 'feel' bad.

You did so awesome catching that!!! (See how easy it is to make someone feel good about themselves . Excellent work. You kick ass at this sort of thing.

[whathehell]

302. No, I'm sure it's not a priority for you..

You "did so awesome"?...Duuh.

Don't tell me...You have NO idea what's wrong with that, do you?

[polly7]

304. Let me check if I give a fuck ......

Guess you're out of luck.
[IMG][/IMG]

[whathehell]

516. You don't "give a fuck"?.....Awwww, really?

Do you always spend this much time responding when you "don't give a fuck"?

Sorry, honey...Faux Indifference is rarely convincing.

[opiate69]

293. While we`re on the subject of "clueless"..

It`s "sharpest tool in the shed" and "sharpest tack in the drawer". Genius.

[polly7]

297. LOL! nt.

[whathehell]

300. Now THAT is a very meaningful distinction...

Good to see you're keeping your keeping priorities straight...Duh.

[opiate69]

303. Yeah...

I mean.. I figure if somebody is going to try to impugn* someone else's intelligence, they probably ought to make sure they don't "accidentally" make themselves look less than impressive intellectually whilst doing so... but I'm kinda funny that way.








*(I'll save you the trouble of looking it up http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/impugn )

[whathehell]

517. Yeah...

Because distinctions like those between a "tack in the drawer" and a "tool in the shed" are the very

essence of intellect.

[Warren DeMontague]

424. not to mention, the cartoon of Superman dropping Lois Lane.

I know you remember that one, right?

[whathehell]

515. Sorry Ignore

I decided awhile ago that your opinions didn't matter to me.

[EOTE]

201. Derp.

Sorry, I tried to come up with a more proper response to the hostile tripe you wrote, but that was all I could come up with. Have fun at your recruitment drive. Ignorant and nasty is no way to go through life.

[Major Nikon]

189. What about boobies?

[whathehell]

256. What about breasts...duh?

[Coyotl]

191. The revolution is being photographed!

[UnrepentantLiberal]

215. How on earth did this post survive a jury?

[Major Nikon]

222. Not enough puritans?

[Renew Deal]

384. lol

Exactly

[opiate69]

226. ...

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)



Boobs!!!! Oh Noez!!!

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Fri Mar 29, 2013, 01:48 PM, and voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Stupid alert with stupid comment by alerter.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: Pretty porny. There must be another forum for this. Thx.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Don't recall anything in the rules about nudity... just pornography. This is not porn, or plain old gratuitous boob pictures... they're protest shots that are completely relevant to the thread subject. I say leave it.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: umm... what?
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Alert?...yawn.

Thank you.

[dipsydoodle]

228. Well at least we've not half a dozen people

getting hersterical in Meta.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

449. .

[2ndAmForComputers]

525. Sudden and rare outbreak of common sense, that's how.

[quinnox]

230. beautiful, courageous women

I'm shocked someone alerted on this post. What is wrong with it? This is very tastefully done.

In fact, the middle picture is almost like a painting or could be an example of photographic art. Its very, very well done in my opinion.

[Warren DeMontague]

539. I shudder to think what would happen if some of the horrified "HALP O NO NOOOD BOOBZ" folks

came to Portland for our [link:http://bikeportland.org/2012/06/17/lots-of-smiles-and-flesh-for-miles-the-2012-world-naked-bike-ride-photos-73404|naked bike race.
]

[Coyotl]

540. That was quite the event

Last edited Mon Apr 1, 2013, 05:48 PM - Edit history (1)

http://mercurypress.photoshelter.com/image/I00004WKeBdwN2Mw

[Warren DeMontague]

541. Tell me about it. A couple years ago my Wife & I went out for Mother's Day Dinner, I think

totally unawares we parked right at ground zero for that thing. Started noticing odd people showing up on the street, even for Portland.

By the time dinner was over there were over 10,000 naked people swarming all around the street, the car, the restaurant, all of it.

Fortunately neither she nor I are particularly hung up about that kind of thing.

[LadyHawkAZ]

210. Brave lady.

Aliaa Elmahdy got run out of Egypt for doing that.

[Le Taz Hot]

214. I have no idea what your OP says

as I couldn't get past the sexist terminology. Next time find a grown-up to help you with the correct medical terminology.

I miss unrec.

[Roland99]

217. I miss people having the ability to read (or at least click a link)

[Le Taz Hot]

225. People who write usually have the ability to read as well.

Amazingly, I can do both.

I didn't click on the link because I've seen this rodeo on DU before. It's a rehash of the same bullshit.

[Roland99]

229. Interesting. I don't see anyone in western attire riding atop horses or bulls.

[Le Taz Hot]

233. Ah, posting as a literalist.

OK, allow me to rephrase: I've watched this same scenario on DU many times so there's nothing new to see here. I do, however, see a lot of bull, or at least evidence of one passing by recently. Yippie I O Tay Yay!

[Roland99]

235. fine...only focus on the article's title then (the OP used the article's title...written by a woman)

ignore the message and the brave actions of those involved.

[Le Taz Hot]

238. If someone wants to get my attention

they're going to have to speak to me like I and they are adults That's my rule. Pretty simple, actually.

[Occulus]

529. Adults aren't offended by other people using language they themselves would not.

Adults get over that and actually deal with the argument being presented in an intelligent manner.

Adults don't piss and moan because someone used a naughty word.

[MattSh]

236. Well, I guess that's your loss then.

Personally, I find no need to sanitize this woman's language because it might offend someone. She's enough of a grown-up to use the words she wants to use. Live with it.

[valerief]

338. How utterly juvenile, like you're trying to create a diversion from the topic

by focusing on a damn word. That's what the GOP does.

[Le Taz Hot]

343. "creating a diversion from the topic"

I literally laughed out loud. I just love irony.

[Major Nikon]

231. Nice barn

[opiate69]

234. Even nicer Tetons....

[Old and In the Way]

245. Nice rack!

[ElboRuum]

253. Takeaway from this picture...

...if Mother Earth can show her Tetons with reckless abandon, then who are we to question?

[LittleBlue]

267. Beautiful

[Coyotl]

237. Petitioning Tunisian Government : Amina must be safe

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022584293

[Kurovski]

532. Done. 46,333 more sigs needed.

Amnesty international. Thanks

[Coyotl]

247. An Interview With Aliaa Elmahdy -The Egyptian Feminist Nude Protester

An Interview With Aliaa Elmahdy -The Egyptian Feminist Nude Protester
http://dailysiren.com/celebs/aliaa-elmahdy-interview/

Us women in the U.S. still have a lot of gender equality and massageinistic self-esteem issues…

Still, it is too easy to take our blessings for granted…

We have running water, a fairly small amount of aids, and if things keep up we will be able to join active combat in droves :arrow:

But in other countries feminists are meeting some seemingly impassable walls. Even so, warrior women like Aliaa are taking sledge-hammers to these barriers against all odds and the inevitable isolation, when it comes to standing out in a country like Egypt…

She started her whole fight with a single nude photo.

Check this out, it’s a little long but well worth the read:

THE EGYPTIAN FEMINIST WHO WAS KIDNAPPED FOR POSING NUDE ..........

[randome]

248. Context is everything, isn't it?

[UnrepentantLiberal]

327. Aliaa Elmahdy protesting outside the Egyptian embassy in Stockholm, Sweden.

[randome]

257. Ahh! An energetic philosophical debate on DU.

Is this what is meant by 'Good Friday'?

[datasuspect]

259. i would show my weiner to make a point

but i like showing my weiner anyway.

[randome]

262. I wouldn't touch that -literally or figuratively- with a 10 foot pole.

[LiberalFighter]

285. The women there need to revolt and stone the men.

[JI7]

288. Why don't Men ever have to pull out their parts to get Equal Pay, go to school without being SHot

etc ?

[davidn3600]

308. Because if a man pulls out his penis, most women are going to run the other way

A woman pulls out her breasts, I seriously doubt any man is going to run away....instead the men will be quite interested.

[edbermac]

301. Lady Godiva rides again.

[polly7]

305. I absolutely love that picture. nt.

[Go Vols]

528. +1

[gollygee]

307. People seem to be ignoring the first half of this

"IF women have to get their tits out to make a point"

Why do women have to take off their clothes to be heard? For their protest to get attention? People are congratulating her for getting naked rather then considering the very question in the subject line. IF. Why? Why is this necessary for her to make her point? Why don't people listen to feminist protests until someone gets naked? Why are feminist protests either ignored or dismissed or made fun of if the feminists are clothed?

[JI7]

312. and that's the point sea and others have been making

[opiate69]

314. No...

The point sea was making was "men keep posting this kind of story, to titillate the other men here, and to antagonize us 'true feminists'™ "

[randome]

316. Being ignored is part of what the enslavement mentality wants.

Why do they need to be nude? They just do! Deal with it. The world is not a nice or fair place. Whatever it takes to shake off the chains!

[gollygee]

317. I'm not going to "just deal with it"

because that's one of the chains.

[JI7]

318. yeah, why should we deal with needing to show tits to get attention

for something.

[randome]

320. Women are FORBIDDEN by men to be topless in both Eastern and Western societies.

I have no problem whatsoever with anyone who wants to rebel against that. And if that's what Amina chooses to do, that's her decision.

I don't understand why anyone would want to say, 'Yeah, okay, protest but...not like that.'

[gollygee]

323. My beef isn't with her choice to protest as she has

My only complaint is that this is what it appears to take for a feminist to get admiration for a protest rather than jeers or apathy.

I don't live in the Middle East and don't feel like I'm in a place to judge her decision at all. If this is how she chooses to protest, then that's her choice and I hope it makes the changes she wants to make.

[randome]

324. We're on the same page on that!

[JI7]

328. why not ? people criticize Code Pink and some others with how they protest sometimes

because it's seen as not being effective to the cause .

[randome]

333. So far as I know, no DUers hail from Tunisia.

So I don't see that we have any business telling her how to protest.

[JI7]

334. there are women from that part of the world who would criticize it

and i would criticize them also even though i'm not from tunisia.

[kwassa]

404. You just like looking at tits.

That was this thread is really about.

Femen and the rest of these topless protesters are ridiculous, first and foremost. Stripping naked gets them attention, that's all, but not the attention for the issues they claim to want it for. It just gets the attention of men who like looking at bare breasts, who could care less about the words written on them.

as a political strategy, it is idiotic. As a feminist statement, it is highly questionable.

[randome]

410. Look at it this way.

I have no idea if you're female or not. Let's presume, for the sake of this discussion that you are.

I'll be the archetypical Western male.

Now I am telling you, man to woman, that I FORBID you from going topless in public. I am allowed to do so but YOU WILL NOT! EVER! I forbid it! Don't even try to discuss this issue! It's closed! Got it?

Now why would anyone fault a woman for taking her clothes off and saying, "Screw you, Western male! I'll do what I want!"

[kwassa]

498. Because that is not the issue that is being protested.

I am male, I like looking at naked women.

These women are stripping to get attention, but they only get attention for stripping. Not for whatever issues they paint on their bodies.

Going topless in public is not the issue they are attempting to draw attention to, but that is the only issue they get attention for. Going topless in public is not an issue most women even care about, and would probably not make the top 50 issues that women most care about, anywhere. It might be what some males would like to see be the top issue for women, but that is a very different thing.

It is not feminism, it is the sexual debasement of an ersatz version of feminism.

[kwassa]

544. You miss my point. Completely.

Which is: That women protesting issues other than sexual repression by taking off their blouses renders their protest ineffective and stupid, because most men will simply stare at the breasts and be oblivious to any other point the women are trying to make.

I have no problem with public nudity at all. I am arguing about context, and effectiveness.

[LadyHawkAZ]

545. Aren't you the guy that complained about Beyonce and her dancers

being dressed like sluts? I'm pretty sure that was you. It doesn't mesh well with your claim to have no problem with nudity, just sayin'.

[kwassa]

546. Sorry, but you miss the point, too. My point in both these cases is CONTEXT.

and Beyonce and her dancers weren't remotely nude, but they were performing a highly sexualized dance.

I changed the channel so my daughter wouldn't see it.

She was in the other room with her mom working on something.

Thirty young black women in weaves shaking their asses for the leering masses. Something I want my African-American daughter to emulate.

My daughter is now six. I didn't then and don't now like to have her bombarded with bad media images of young black women, particularly in the middle of what is otherwise family programming. The CONTEXT was wrong. Same with these women baring their breasts over subjects unrelated to sexual oppression. The context is wrong.

Nudity can be completely non-sexual, and often is. I have belonged to clothing optional resorts, am an artist and have drawn the nude figure though out my life, worked briefly in college as a nude model myself for other art classes. It isn't nudity, it is how nudity is used. Sexuality is also fine in the right context, and stupid and distracting in others. I think what Femen does is stupid and distracting, and reinforces the sexual oppression of women.

[LadyHawkAZ]

547. Context = in the middle of a highly violent game

Last edited Thu Apr 4, 2013, 04:23 PM - Edit history (1)

which you seem to have been OK with a child watching (family programming???), somebody got their sexy on:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022306766#post43
"Success is turning my little black girl into a slut.

Yeah. Right.

Beyonce has a voice, and performance chops. And she is flinging an acre of hair that isn't hers, bought at great price, and dyed blond. Something else to emulate.

So, all thirty women out ther turn around, and shake their barely clad asses at the audience. Wow, what talent. So difficult. So artistic."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022306766#post106
"oh, my, I shouldn't call things by what they are.

Beyonce is far away from being a slut?

OK.

Did you see the half-time show? Sluts En Regalia. By the Dozens.

all of them young women of color. And how is this role-modeling for my child? or any child of color? You will be valuable when you can be a sex object at the Super Bowl. An empowering message if ever there was one."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022306766#post115
"oh, I see, she only acts like a prostitute on television, but that is not who she really is.

And because she is financially successful and married, that makes it OK, which therefore makes her beyond criticism.

This makes no sense whatsoever."

Your approved context seems to be "only when it's done to benefit me, when I want it". It's not up to you to decide for women when they ought to be showing what. That's what sexual oppression IS. Don't be That Guy.

FEMEN protests on many subjects, several of which ARE directly related to sexual oppression. I don't agree with some of their goals, but I have to hand it to them for their methods- they are getting the attention they want and kicking down a few barriers in the process. People have created the idea that women are supposed to be hidden from everyone but their husband, and built women's sexual identity around that idea (and its converse, show your body and you're a slut). They are attacking that message as well as their other causes, and more fucking power to them.

[kwassa]

565. Why are you reposting a hidden post?

A jury hid my post from Feb. 3rd, and you are reposting it.

And then you cut and paste without context from that thread a mess of my comments taken out of the discussion thread itself, all in one giant lump.

And none of this has anything to do with the subject we are discussing today.

Your approved context seems to be "only when it's done to benefit me, when I want it". It's not up to you to decide for women when they ought to be showing what. That's what sexual oppression IS. Don't be That Guy.

Don't try to put words in my mouth, I never said any such thing. Don't invent motives out of thin air, which is what you are doing here.

FEMEN protests on many subjects, several of which ARE directly related to sexual oppression. I don't agree with some of their goals, but I have to hand it to them for their methods- they are getting the attention they want and kicking down a few barriers in the process. People have created the idea that women are supposed to be hidden from everyone but their husband, and built women's sexual identity around that idea (and its converse, show your body and you're a slut). They are attacking that message as well as their other causes, and more fucking power to them.

We will never agree on this subject. I think their methods destroys the points they are trying to make, because the nudity is unrelated to their protests. I don't think it breaks down any doors, either, and just ends up appearing like a bizarre sideshow. I don't think they do anything to empower women's sexual identity either, they simply exploit their bodies to get attention. Is that a new empowering message or just the same old same old?

[randome]

566. This thread has turned into one incredible whack-a-doodle!

It's like the Blob growing and squeezing its way into every orifice!

[LadyHawkAZ]

577. .

Since you seem to feel that I had added comments to the reprinted posts that you did not make, I have broken up the divisions and added links, so people can view the "context" of you calling women sluts and prostitutes in situ.

Let's review what you have said:
Women getting naked at a clothing-optional resort that you belonged to: OK.
Women modeling naked for you: OK.
Women wearing revealing clothing on a stage, no actual nudity: sluts, prostitutes.
Women going topless at a protest: ridiculous attention seekers.

Do you see the problem I am having?

We will never agree on this subject. I think their methods destroys the points they are trying to make, because the nudity is unrelated to their protests.

There are large swaths of the world where women MUST be completely covered, by law as well as by custom. Tunisia has been moving in that direction since the Arab Spring; there's been articles posted about it. A rather brave young Tunisian woman decided to photograph herself, topless, to protest this; she received death threats as a reward. FEMEN is now protesting on her behalf, topless. That's a pretty direct relation between the current protest and the methods. This is what the sudden deluge of threads on FEMEN has been about. I'm awful fond of naked breasts, but I still got the message (and without getting turned on, even!). Why didn't you?

Brave? Yes. Empowering? Yes. New? No. Same old same old? Only where the message from those objecting is concerned.

[kwassa]

578. I don't see the problem you are having.

Let's review what you have said:
Women getting naked at a clothing-optional resort that you belonged to: OK.
Women modeling naked for you: OK.
Women wearing revealing clothing on a stage, no actual nudity: sluts, prostitutes.
Women going topless at a protest: ridiculous attention seekers.

Do you see the problem I am having?

No, I don't see the problem. I already discussed this. Context.

Context.

Context.

rather brave young Tunisian woman decided to photograph herself, topless, to protest this; she received death threats as a reward. FEMEN is now protesting on her behalf, topless.

I already covered this, too. I don't have a problem with topless protesting over sexual repression laws, though I doubt it will make much of an impression on Parisians.

I think protesting other subjects topless is ridiculous and counter productive. The nudity has no relationship to the point of the protest and only serves to make the protesters look foolish.

[kwassa]

558. Yes, that is just about it. All the blood rushes to one area of the body.

Beavis and Butthead is not too far from the truth.

[kwassa]

561. My point exactly.

So what it's really about, and this is borne out through the commentary- is that it's "unhelpful" for there to be naked women, anywhere, in any situation- because apparently any time a man is aroused by a woman's appearance all women are oppressed, or something.

Uh, no, I didn't make that argument. I did say it is stupid and distracting, which it is. I also said that such a nude protest would make sense if the protest was against sexual oppression, otherwise it doesn't make any sense.

The point you choose to ignore, repeatedly, is that the nudity often has nothing to do with the issue being protested. Why are they nude, then?

[kwassa]

563. They certainly can, and be judged for it, too.

In my personal opinion, they hurt both feminism and whatever other cause they are attempting to advocate. Your mileage may vary.

[kwassa]

567. go back and re-read what I've written, and you will get the point.

One more time: the nudity is stupid and distracting in a protest unrelated to sexual repression.

I don't see what the Femen protesters do as empowering to women, merely exploiting their bodies for attention. I don't see how that advances the cause of feminism. What is hard about that to understand?

The Portland Naked Bicycle Race isn't attempting to make a statement about any issues at all, is it?

[stevenleser]

572. I think you are projecting. If you can't handle multiple thoughts and impulses, you need

to deal with that. Don't assume other people are the same way.

[Renew Deal]

396. Women don't have to take their clothes off to be heard in general

But in some societies doing so gives attention to their protest. In Russia, rocking out in a church is enough. In Tunisia, aggravating the puritans by getting naked is enough. In the US, women don't have to do these things and if they did, they'd likely be ignored as a spectacle. I think that in the US, feminist protests would get the same attention as most other protests (mostly ignored). Only a few protests break through in the US.

Teabaggers show up with guns. Pro-fair economy supporters take over parks, etc.

[LadyHawkAZ]

460. Because things that we take for granted

like being able to put on a bikini or a low-cut blouse (or not), are not things that a large swath of the world has. Amina does not have that right. Amina in her part of the world has precious few rights to her body. So yes, we are all busily congratulating her on getting naked and flouting that lack of rights. Why aren't you?

[geckosfeet]

336. I don't get it.

But the girls are cute.

[davidthegnome]

369. They put her in a psych hospital...

For the crime of, or apparent... insanity of..? Showing her breasts? Objecting to ancient oppression that we all know is despicable? Daring to say what we all already know...? Her own family did this (placed her in a psych hospital). I just can't wrap my head around it, as much as I like to think of myself as fairly well educated, when stuff like this happens everything I know (or think I know) serves no purpose. All I can do is sit in awe of the ignorance and stupidity of so very many people, who embrace their religions over their humanity. I do not think that, were they all real and alive today... that any of the great spiritual leaders of the past would approve of Sharia law, or of Western, Conservative Christianity.

I am reminded of one of the earliest stories of the bible. According to the myth, Adam and Eve were naked when they came into the world... then they ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge - and Adam was ashamed for he had no clothes. The idea that covering ourselves up displays noble virtue is moronic. The apparent "shame" of being naked is a HUMAN thing. It hasn't got a damn thing to do with spirituality.

I am reminded of why I despise organized religion. This is what happens when it is permitted to be taken to extremes. The most despicable sort of oppression we can imagine, where people are locked up, or killed... simply for speaking their minds, or for daring to show their naked bodies to the world.

I agree with Amina. Fuck their morals.

I'd like to take action to help, but the kind of action I want to take would require violence. Anyone who threatens or seeks to harm this young lady should themselves be stoned. Hell, I'd gladly throw the first rock.

[Kurovski]

472. maybe they put her there for her protection? (nt)

[davidthegnome]

505. Maybe.

I doubt it though. I doubt it because of the social norms in that area of the world. From the point of view of many people there, what she did IS crazy, exposing her breasts in such a manner is risking her life - and the statement she is making is even more likely to infuriate the radical clerics and their followers.

I have some experience with psych hospitals. I can tell you for certain that a lot of patients come out more scarred than they were when they went in. These aren't all nice places of healing with caring staff - though some of them are, they are the exceptions rather than the rule. The staff at any psych hospital tends to have a certain way of looking at patients... it's hard to describe to those who haven't experienced it.

Imagine you're deemed mentally ill it is determined that you require hospitalization. You will generally be immediately deprived of all personal possessions, with the exception of, perhaps, your clothing. You're sent to sleep in a room, likely with one or more room mates you've never met. You have no idea who they are, all you know is that you're in a place where they send "crazy", or "dangerous" people. Your guard is up to begin with... and it isn't long before you have (infrequent) meetings with a resident psychiatrist who quickly (often in less than an hour) determines what drugs would be best to manage your care.

It is frowned upon to initiate dialogue with staff, unless you're asking for something you need. Don't try to have small talk, don't mention the weather, don't ask them how they're doing, they'll frown suspiciously and wonder what your ulterior motive is. Perhaps there are a few weekly events, like group therapy, where you get a chance to talk to people.. but these aren't nearly as common or as frequent as they should be. The primary goal is to keep you from hurting yourself or anyone else - it isn't to cure you, it isn't even necessarily to help you feel better... the purpose is to make you "safe" enough (usually within a week or so) to go back out among society.

They'll send you away with a few prescriptions, and perhaps a bottle of powerful, mind altering pills. They won't cure you, nor even bother with the attempt. They'll manage your symptoms and suggest in their paperwork that you're apparently in remission.

Personally, I find psych hospitals to be more frightening than most places I've been to - and not because of the patients.

[Zax2me]

392. Until they do it to make a point about something you disagree with.

Then it's sexism, misogyny....

Maybe just keep the shirts on.
Smart progressive women do it and make valid points all the time.

[Kurovski]

461. "Smart progressive women" aren't even allowed to go to school in many parts of the world.

But I'm not clear on the meaning of your post.

Did you read the article at the link too fast?

[BainsBane]

436. If only Adria Richards had displayed her breasts on Twitter

that maybe people wouldn't be so anxious to justify death threats against her. If you're going to try to make a point about women's rights, make sure you titillate men in the process, or they won't see you as fit to breath air.

[Kurovski]

469. Adria Richards is a self-absorbed, privileged asshole compared to Amina.

I hope they go after the criminal fucks who threatened Richards, but Amina is in actual danger far beyond that of Richards. She has real death threats to contend with from government.


Edit: and if you find anyone who actually justifies death threats to anyone anywhwere, you can tell them they're just as seriously messed-up as someone who would lie about the pervasiveness of something like that.

[BainsBane]

484. case in point

if only she'd show her breasts.

1 in 3 women in this country are raped or abused by their partners. Richards is threatened with rape and murder by thousands of men. Just how different does dead feel it it's at the hands of government, a partner, or a coworker? It's all the same, and obviously pales in comparison to the crime committed against a man by tweeting what he said in public. "Real death threats." You're a piece of work. How many times would you have to be threatened with rape and murder before you would consider them "real."

[Kurovski]

495. You're all over the place.

i have no clear idea what you're saying. it's like dealing with an inky octopus

How many threats to the president are considered a real danger? how do they decide which ones to investigate?

What would I do with threats? we have agencies that can check on threats to Richards. I trust she's contacted all of them.

You say you are familiar with the "thousands of threats" I'd like to see them. How is the crime investigation going? Serious threats require investigation. I've been taking your word for it. But I no longer believe she has thousands of real threats.

Amina has a fatwa against her. are You so ignorant of the culture not to see the difference?


Public figures get threats. Men and women.

Men are raped too, not that you give a shit.

[BainsBane]

500. It's not very difficult to understand

Very few words, it just requires basic reading comprehension. I happen to think death and murder is worse than tweeting a joke. Call me a radical that way. You don't think death threats count in this country because the government isn't carrying them out.

I see no difference between a misogynist Muslim man and American, non-Muslim man. Murder is murder, rape is rape. You are comfortable pointing to violence against women abroad because you see it as something far away and ignore the fact that 1 in 3 American women are abused by a partner. You focus on the foreign other because you seek to distance yourself and American culture from the reality of violence against women.

We can't control what happens in other countries. All we can do is control our own behavior. But that requires a commitment to human equality and a basic belief that women too have the right to be free from physical violence. But when 1 in 3 women are abused, that means their partners who are doing that abusing are everywhere: at pycon conferences, at most of our places of work, in our local communities, and even, according to statistical probability, on this very website.

I'm not proving anything to you. Those threats have been widely reported in the press. Articles, many linked to in threads you have participated in, have also talked about how difficult it is to investigate internet threats even when the people use their real names because of the nature of laws in this country. You've changed positions so many times. Now you're pretending they don't exist.

[Kurovski]

503. "Someone like me"?

A DUer? A man?

A gay man? An artist?

A survivor of rape? The disabled?

A survivor of violent crime? The impoverished?

What's someone like me?

You are an answer to a question no one asked.

Your ignorance coupled with the other "skills" I listed previously are not only offensive to me, but raise suspicion as well as to your actual motives.

You are on ignore. Like I say, you are into the bullshit.

[BainsBane]

493. Threats of death and rape aren't real

but tweeting what a man says in public makes a lesbian, African-American woman "a self-absorbed privileged asshole" for tweeting what a man said right in front of her because you say so. Tweeting what someone says in public, horrifying and unforgivable. Threats of death and rape, insignificant because they aren't "real," they don't come from a government. They just come from thousands of men, some of whom have previously acted on those threats. And everyone knows that being raped or killed isn't real if it isn't carried out by a government.

Privileged apparently because she dared to get an education and professional job rather than staying in her place.

[Kurovski]

497. Co-workers said she was an asshole. Even people who liked her.

But you don't give a shit. The only thing you truly and honestly seem to care about is the bullshit. the ink, the muddying, the distortion. the attacks, the purposeful misinterpretation, the projection, the steering a topic to what YOU want to discuss.

If you ever need yet more cash, you can always work for a rightwing think tank. You already know the technique.


Toxic.

[BainsBane]

501. those coworkers were assholes

men who think they have a god given right to sit around making vulgar jokes and no one should repeat it. These are men whose idea of sport is raping women at their conferences. Excuse me if I'm not going to take their word for it. I have a different view of who is an asshole, and rapist rates higher on the asshole index than Tweeter to me. Again, that's the radical feminist in me. But even if she had been the biggest asshole on the planet, that doesn't mean death threats are acceptable or somehow "unreal." The men who issued the Fatwa think the Tunisian woman is an asshole. Misogynists always claim their actions are justified.

Damn right I'm going to discuss what I want to. Just because your mind can't see obvious connections doesn't mean I'm limited to your narrow view of the world.
I don't need your permission to write anything. Who do you think you are anyway?

[opiate69]

506. ...

[JVS]

526. You actually think that people engage in rape as a form of recreation during conferences?

And your evidence is what, that one guy told a dongle joke?
Have you ever attended a conference? I've been to many and not once did anyone suggest rape as a way to while away the evening.

[BainsBane]

534. there are numerous reports of rape from those conferences

I have most certainly attended conferences, but my field is not male dominated. We're talking about a specific industry here that has very few women working it.

[snooper2]

576. Hold on a second....

I'm going to stand up in my cube real quick---







Yep,

Still there....

Valerei, DeMartha and Monica's cube right on the other side of my wall (I'm on the end row)...

Damn, for a second with your post I thought they disappeared

[PDJane]

487. It's only offensive if you believe that women are sexual objects to be owned.

I understand her point, and I understand what she risked to do this. Your opinion doesn't matter, frankly, because you aren't the one at risk.

She chose to fight societal norms in her country, and she will spend time in jail and may die for her defiance. None of the posts on this have anything to contribute, because it isn't our discussion.

[Apophis]

496. Did anyone here actually read the article?

Or should we just knee-jerk here?

[Kurovski]

499. I'd say half, maybe more have read the actual article in full.

But there is a small portion of DU that makes everything about them and their own philosophy and world view. Even something like this

We are very spoiled in this country of USA.

[Kurovski]

507. people on facebook can sign this petition against the government killing her.

http://www.causes.com/actions/1741900-dont-let-amina-be-condemned-to-dead-for-being-the-owner-of-her-own-body?recruiter_id=89898758

[DRoseDARs]

511. But where's the petition to express our 1st World Problems(tm) poutrage over the word tits?

Mother of fucking whiny-ass titty baby Christ, the butthurt. Way to miss the larger issue and the purposeful use of that word by the FEMALE author of the article.

[Kurovski]

512. Well, it looks like that petition is DU itself.

Or at least the General Discussion portion.

You couldn't pay a troll to fuck shit up much worse.

May today be a turning point, may everyone of us who who knee-jerks too damn much think twice after today. or at least focus better.

In the mean time, I got four more ignore slots I can fill.

[DRoseDARs]

513. I try not to put ppl on Ignore. This shit's too funny for that. Though, I'm going to break my nose..

...if I *facepalm* any harder.

[Kurovski]

514. Be careful.

Or you'll never breath the same way again!

I got a pistol-whipped schnoz that learned me that lesson.

[WinkyDink]

533. You are the one degrading this young woman's serious gesture.

[stevenleser]

537. How so? He is posting the actual title of the article. nt

[Skittles]

552. CALLING NURSE DIESEL!!!

[Malik Agar]

559. Showing boobs won't fix the problem...

Hell, it probably makes it worse because it rewards problem creation with titties.

[opiate69]

570. Heh..

 even though it pisses off the authoritarian control freaks and finger-wagging puritans to no end.

In my mind, that`s all the reason I`d need.

[steve2470]

569. Next time I want a lot of responses to my thread, the word "tits" goes in the subject line

[wundermaus]

604. Women with guts.

These are some mighty brave ladies in a very dangerous place.
I sure hope they find sanctuary from the nut cases that want to harm them.
This world is upside down to have strong women be targets of violence when it is the pathetic perpetrators of violence that should be locked up.

A woman's rights and freedoms are the same as a man's.

Over 2,000 years after the death of Christ and we still have idiots chopping off heads and stoning people to death in many parts of the world.

Hell, we still have the Death Penalty in the US. What the fuck is up with that?

Isn't it time we finally grew up?

Isn't it time we stopped killing each other and start helping each other?

Are we as a species going to remain this stupid until we go extinct?

Stop killing each other and start caring for each other.