Happy ending massage therapists: Sex workers or not?

[Noodleboy13]

I know a few young women in my neighborhood who support themselves through massage work. They make pretty good money.
And despite the full nudity and the "happy ending", they don't consider to be in the sex industry, or to be sex workers.
Your thoughts?


peace
Noodleboy

[truebrit71]

1. ....ibtl

[stevenleser]

15. Pass some over

[NYC_SKP]

93. Can threads have happy endings?

[Rex]

85. Really? Why?

Care to elaborate as to why you think this thread will get locked?

[Thrill]

2. So now any woman who helps a man bust a nut is a sex worker?

Shame on you

[Noodleboy13]

5. I'm certainly not judging them, they are my friends.

We have even talked about this subject. It's really more about how one answers the question "So what do you do?" Like it or not, people make assumptions about others based on their profession, and these women often have to get a little creative in their answers to avoid being judged.

peace
Noodleboy

[Warren DeMontague]

12. only if there's payment involved.

otherwise, just a good Samaritan.

[Angry Dragon]

3. Free market system

[EOTE]

4. What difference does it make?

Seems more semantics than anything else. The important issue is that she's a consensual adult engaging in consensual activities. As such, she shouldn't be judged for it. Quarreling about what to call it doesn't seem very important.

[Noodleboy13]

13. Agreed. It is more about semantics.

And personally I would love to live in a world where one could say "I'm in the Sex industry" as casually as I can say "I'm in the service industry." (I'm a chef)

peace
Noodleboy

[Generic Brad]

69. The term "Sex Industry" sounds like factory work to me

Like the employees make a living welding penis pumps and vibrators.

[HappyMe]

100. lol!

That presents a pretty hilarious mental picture.

[Fool Count]

54. It is not just semantics. Massage therapy is legal in most states, prostitution is not.

Quarreling about it may not be important in a living room, but it sure as hell
will be when done in a court of law. I would like to see how their argument
would stand up there.

[EOTE]

96. Massage therapy is legal in ALL states as far as I know.

Happy endings aren't legal anywhere in the U.S. as far as I know. Hence, it's totally semantics.

[Dash Riprock]

88. and they make good money and

their job can't be outsourced to China.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

6. As long as it's their choice, I don't see the harm.

But there are probably risks.

[onehandle]

7. I dunno, but now I think I'm getting ripped off when I get a massage.

The only 'happy ending' I get is a tip envelope.

[Ruby the Liberal]

8. Yes.

Massage without orgasm is therapy. Massage with orgasm is therapy with sex added to the mix.

[zappaman]

11. Yes, but a good orgasm can be therapeutic, can it not? n/t

[Ruby the Liberal]

17. Didn't say it wasn't - only that if the line is crossed

into orgasm territory for hire, then yes, it is 'sex work'.

[zappaman]

19. Agreed. n/t

[uppityperson]

20. Of course it can. That falls under Sex Therapy. Not Massage Therapy.

[farm 2 table 2toilet]

86. Exactly. What is so hard about this

(pardon the unfortunate pun)? Get your genetalia sucked, inserted into a hole or rubbed, it's game on for the sex working industry!

Yay team...

[Warren DeMontague]

9. Um.. Look, I think consenting adults should be free to enter into whatever arrangements they want

and as such I think "sex work" should be legal.

That said, I think it does a disservice to real, legitimate massage therapists when what they do is conflated with anything involving sex, including happy endings.

I've had a lot of professional massages, I've never had anyone get me off at the end. Nor have I expected them to, or wanted them to.

[obamanut2012]

14. You wrote what I was going to post

Exactly.

[uppityperson]

18. Thank you. If consenting adults want to pay for "sex work", fine with me. But it does a disservice

to we real Massage Therapists to conflate what we do with sex massage. "Happy ending" is simply a euphamism for masturbation. Which is not in our Scope of Practice.

[Noodleboy13]

21. Right

The women I've talked to place more emphasis on the quality of the massage and the experience than the ending.
I "volunteered" to be a practice person when one of my friends was taking classes on massage. After an hour I was a freaking puddle of muscle. Anything sexual would have diminished the experience.

peace
Nodleboy

[Bruce Wayne]

36. Ha ha. My favorite Dubya quote.

Not that there's a lot of good ones to pick from.

[Warren DeMontague]

51. Actually, I think that was Cheney... but I didn't do that on purpose

and didn't realize it until you pointed it out.

...oddly enough, on that point the guy and I apparently agree.

[easttexaslefty]

50. Exactly. n/t

[Zalatix]

60. ^^ Common sense has spoken.

[anneboleyn]

62. Exactly. Great points. Thank you, Monsieur DeMontague, for the sage, sane reply (as usual).

I've had massages as well for medical reasons, and none of the therapists ever offered me a sex-related "service" such as a hand job (though I don't know if women are ever offered "happy endings" in these sex-massage scenarios).

[aaaaaa5a]

94. +1 nt

[msongs]

10. engage in sexual acts for $$ = sex worker. not that difficult is it nt

[Bruce Wayne]

39. That definition is kind of a slippery slope.

By that definition, the doctor who gives me a prostate exam with a vibrating novelty item in the back row of the porno theatre is also a sex worker. Where does the madness end? How much more slippery can it get?

[uppityperson]

56. hahahahahaha. Glad I reread what you wrote.

[Zalatix]

78. LOL!! good one!

[uppityperson]

16. Getting $ for sex=sex worker. Massage Therapy is like Physical Therapy. Sex is prohibited by law

most places for Massage Therapists.

Just because you do "massage work" does not mean you are a Massage Therapist.

If you do involve sex with your "massage work", yes, you are a sex worker. Sex work = sex worker.

[safeinOhio]

53. A job is a job and work is work.

Call it anything you want. Just make it legal, regulated and safe for everyone. Hand jobs should be legal, if regulated with a certificate of training and cloths below the waist for provider. It should go for either sex too.

[Ter]

115. How is rubbing a penis sex?

She also rubs the back, feet, arms, and neck. It's a body part too, and deserves it's fair share.

[uppityperson]

117. How is rubbing a penis not sex if they have an orgasm? Is sex only penis/vagina? For procreation?

Aside from being illegal and outside the Scope of Practice of a Licensed Massage Therapist, yes, rubbing a penis until the man ejaculates is sex.

[redqueen]

22. Wow.

There's actually confusion about this?

Ay ay ay.

[uppityperson]

23. Are they all "young women" or older women and/or men?

[Noodleboy13]

24. The people I know personally are all in their late 20's.

However, one of their roommates (mid 20's gay man) is thinking of getting into the business as he needs he money.


peace
Noodleboy

[uppityperson]

26. If they get paid for sex, which masturbating someone to an orgasm is, then yes, they are

sex workers. Depending on what state and county and city (sometimes) they are in, this may be legal or not.

If someone wants to pay for sex, between consenting adults, that is up to them. But please do not confuse Sex therapists with Massage Therapists as we are a very different thing with different laws and rules and Scope of Practice. People are already confused enough about MTs. Think of them like PTs, physical therapists.

[easttexaslefty]

52. Yes.

I'm not a sex worker. I don't want to be confused with sex workers.
If that's someones gig, that's cool, but that's NOT what LMT's do. They are licensed massage therapists.

[redqueen]

25. Now I'm wondering if the clients don't consider themselves to be buying sex.

[uppityperson]

27. Seriously. You pay for sex, get paid for sex, yes, it is sex work/sex customers.

[Aerows]

121. I'd consider it sex

If I went to get a "happy ending" massage, I'd know exactly what I was getting - it would be sexual satisfaction.

I'm thinking it might be time for me to start getting massages!

[aikoaiko]

28. sex work

[ForgoTheConsequence]

29. Yes I do. And a number of them are SLAVES!

And I hate how its so casualty talked about. A number of the women in these "massage" parlors are SEX SLAVES. A lot of them are Eastern European or Asian and brought here on the condition that they degrade themselves in this profession.

"I've talked to people who patronize these businesses and I have asked them why they go there," a federal agent recalled. "One guy said something that really struck me.

"He said he sees the women in the massage parlor as less than human because they do not look like his wife, or his sister, or his mother.

"But they are mothers, sisters and children. And they don't have the option to leave."

http://readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=158807

[redqueen]

30. Very good point.

I thought of mentioning that not all the people giving out 'therapeutic' hand jobs (or more) in those places is doing so because they enjoy the work... but I already 'harp' on it enough... so...

[ForgoTheConsequence]

33. You can never harp on it enough.

I see it constantly joked about but in reality a lot of these women live in horrible conditions. They are brought here on the condition that they perform this work, and if for some reason they try to escape they are threatened with being turned in as illegal immigrants.

I don't know how this goes so overlooked, its sex trafficking and for some reason its OK to joke about.

[redqueen]

37. Many people would like to believe human trafficking for sex work doesn't happen...

or that it doesn't happen in large numbers... that way they can just ignore it and not feel bad about it.

[safeinOhio]

55. A 6 month course requirement would end all of that.

A small user ta $5) would pay for inspections and regulations to control exploitation.

[uppityperson]

32. The euphemism "happy ending" means masturbation to orgasm and is not Massage Therapy any

more than getting a quick hand job when buying groceries would be.

Esp since the OP mentions "young women", it strikes me as a not positive situation.

[thelordofhell]

45. Whoa, wait a minute there.......

Where are you buying groceries?

But seriously, yes they're prostitutes.

[gkhouston]

66. In the self-service line?

[uppityperson]

77. Duzy

[anneboleyn]

63. Excellent points about this issue -- they are often exploited young women, new to the U.S.

[eShirl]

31. I went to massage therapy school for a year and got a state license to practice.

None of the massage therapists I've ever known either worked nude or masturbated clients.

Do these so-called "massage therapists" you know have any professional credentials at all? Or did they just decide to start calling themselves massage therapists one day to rake in some easy cash?

[stevenleser]

34. I wonder if the OP knows for sure these people provide that service or if it is an assumption

I have a serious neck issue (badly herniated C6-C7) and when it acts up, my physical therapists prescribes massage. I've gone to get massages while traveling on the road. No massage therapist has ever asked me if I wanted "a happy ending". Believe me, when my herniated disc acts up, the last thing on my mind is sex.

I'm guessing you have to go out of the way to find a place that does this and I'm also guessing that places that offer this really have nothing to do with massage.

[PassingFair]

43. There's going to be a TV Series:

http://www.deadline.com/2011/08/lifetime-greenlights-the-client-list-series-starring-produced-by-jennifer-love-hewitt/


The "movie" was hysterical.

The "series" will be hugh!

[Noodleboy13]

44. They generally advertise on Backpage.com

There is an entire section for " Body Rubs." Their clients definitely know what they're getting into.

[MrsCorleone]

95. There's even a review site:

RubMaps.com

[Noodleboy13]

35. I in no way mean to equate legitimate Massage Therapists with "freelancers."

The women I know have all taken a few classes on various massage techniques, but no they have no professional credentials. They call themselves massage therapists to work around the sometime awkward question "So, what do you do?"
It's similar to an escort I knew who told people she was a stripper.

peace
Noodleboy

[eShirl]

40. It sounds like you and they already know the answer to your question.

[ZombieHorde]

38. They're prostitutes, but I don't blame them for wanting to avoid that title in our society.

I hope they stay safe, and I am glad they seem to have the option to stop if they want to.

[tawadi]

41. wtf

[RZM]

42. Then they are in denial

A massage therapist gives massages. A sex worker gives 'massages.'

[thelordofhell]

46. Then they should have no problem doing their massage work on a cop

They're prostitutes Noodleboy13. Now try not to use that knowledge to get free massage/tugjobs from these idiots.

[Noodleboy13]

47. But they don't consider themselves to be prostitutes.

In fact, they are rather touchy about that. (no pun intended)
In their opinion, prostitutes do sex and oral; their main focus is the sexual experience. My friends feel that the massage itself is the primary focus, the hand-job is secondary. You can masturbate yourself, you can't rub your own back.
It's a tricky definition I give you that.

Btw, the work I received was fully clothed ( I was in shorts) and she was consulting notes the entire time.

[thelordofhell]

49. You can't rub your own back? Oh yes you can!!

http://www.bodyback.com/

[Logical]

59. Idiots? classy!

[trumad]

48. I have the best masseuse in the world...

Deep tissue--- Hot stones--- Shiatsu--- Swedish---

and then the happy ending....

It is truly the greatest message on the planet and when I walk out I'm floating on clouds.

[Logical]

58. LOL.....let me know where!!! In Kansas? I am there!

[trumad]

79. Orlando

[farm 2 table 2toilet]

81. Are you married or otherwise involved in a partnership?

Because then it's cheating, you know. EVEN IF you don't penetrate her...

Why have some random woman do that to you?

[Logical]

82. Are you serious? If so then really really naive.

[farm 2 table 2toilet]

84. Please help me understand then.

I get it--getting one's dick rubbed must be quite pleasurable. But having a stranger do it is kinda sorta icky to me and I am not prudish in the least.

[Logical]

89. Well, you need to realize......

maybe some people do not have the time for a real relationship. Or they think picking up some person in a bar and taking them home and having sex might involve hurting someones feelings when they don't call them again EVER.

How is using a "massage" person you don't know any different that picking up a chick at a bar and three hours later having sex with them?

And some people might not be attractive enough or might have personality issues where a real relationship might be hard. But they still want that experience.

[trumad]

91. Married for 20 years.

My wife could give a rats ass if I get jerked off at the end of a wonderful message.

[Snake Alchemist]

97. Glad my wife cares more than that.

Weird.

[trumad]

99. Really?

I think it's weird if you're weird about such things.

It's just a fucking hand job...sheesh.

[Snake Alchemist]

101. Yes. I am glad it's not "just" anything to her. nt

[trumad]

102. ahhh the American hang up with sex.

[Snake Alchemist]

103. Just true devoted love. I get weak in the knees when I'm with her. nt

[LanternWaste]

109. I've noticed that quite often, mere disagreement with an opinion gets one branded

I've noticed that quite often, mere disagreement with an opinion about sex gets one branded as having a hang-up or as a prude... I guess we often do project our own limits and boundaries onto others, and it seems no one side is innocent of that.

[undeterred]

104. Well I won't write you a wonderful message then.

[uppityperson]

107. I wrote him a wonderful message. Trumad will be back as soon as he can.

[undeterred]

111. Here's to happy endings!

[uppityperson]

114. And to wonderful messages!

[uppityperson]

106. You get "a wonderful message"? Seriously? You pay for sex and a "message"?

I am curious, does your wife know you are paying for sex? Not "does she care" but does she know?

Here is a wonderful message : WA is passing a law for equal marriage rights regardless of sexual orientation. Isn't that a wonderful message?

[uppityperson]

113. Massage, not message. And this is a forum, have the right to comment on your posts.

Since you were the one saying your wife wouldn't care, the logical next step is wondering if she knows.

[trumad]

116. sorry for the typo

and on this forum I'm allowed to say---- mind your own fucking business.

[uppityperson]

118. If you don't want people commenting on your posts, maybe you shouldn't post. No, you aren't

[libodem]

57. Sex worker

Sounds better than prostitute. Massage therapists are licenced and trained professionals.

I've wondered about houses I've seen claiming to be an oriental spa. Never any cars around. They just seem freakish.

I'm glad you don't judge your friends. I've talked to a few ladies in my day who were in the life. I wanted to know their stories so I suspended judgement and listened with love. Some crazy shit happens to women.

[Noodleboy13]

64. The stuff I hear when they talk shop

turns my ears and cheeks pink. And I agree that sex worker sounds better than prostitute. To paraphrase Lenny Bruce "These days if you ask for a prostitute you're likely to end up with a mustached, alcoholic, aging screen writer"


peace
Noodleboy

[B2G]

61. "Noodleboy" talking about Happy Ending massages

is making me laugh out loud for some reason.

[Nikia]

65. Every couples years, a "massage parlor" gets busted around here

And the women are charged with prostitution even though they are only doing what your friends do.
Your friends would be charged as prostitutes too if their workplace was investigated.

[LadyHawkAZ]

67. They're sex workers

I can totally understand their not wanting the label, though. When half the population calls you a whore and wants you jailed, and the other half is split between marginalizing you as a slave or marginalizing you as mentally defective- and BOTH sides want the government to control your sex life- it can get a little hard on the psyche.

Whatever label works for them, they're welcome to.

[hunter]

68. What if the workers are robots and I own the massage parlor?

Would that make me a sex worker?

http://theinfosphere.org/I_Dated_a_Robot

http://www.hulu.com/watch/4510/futurama-anti-robot-propaganda

Or how 'bout the guy I hired to clean the robots. Is he a sex worker?

(Worse job in the world, I know, but he seems to like it... used to be the producer of some stupid TV show, Fear Factor I think he called it.)

[moriah]

70. If you want a good massage cheap WITHOUT a happy ending....

... check out the massage schools in your area.

As soon as I get my tax return I'm splurging on a $25 an hour full body massage that will leave me a puddle of gooey muscles without any need for genital contact.

[Rowdyboy]

71. If your doctor checked for testicular cancer and then kept rubbing until you got off

then it would sound like sex to me. Same thing with a massage therapist.

[bigwillq]

72. If they're of legal age and it's consensual

Then I don't really see the big deal.


No, I don't think they're sex workers.

[treestar]

73. I look forward to the day

When no one has to make a living this way, because they can find a better job.

[flvegan]

74. My thoughts: I wish I lived in your neighborhood.

The post posting swarm will be fun.

[Noodleboy13]

75. Living in Hipster Central does have its perks. j/k

Although one meets all sorts of interesting people as a modern urban peasant.

peace
Noodleboy

[JVS]

76. Are you sure that they are doing happy endings?

In my limited experience with the topic, massage therapy is the kind of language places use to indicate that happy endings are not what they do. Thai massage, Swedish massage, and massage parlor seem more in keeping with the happy ending.

[farm 2 table 2toilet]

80. Tell me how it's NOT prostitution?

Prostitution is not just intercourse, so have hand, will job.

[anneboleyn]

122. Exactly. Sophistry. This is a man (do women ever get these?) paying for a hand job with a "massage"

This is sex work. Simple. An earlier poster also noted that these workers are frequently sex slaves, brought in to the U.S. from Asian countries or Eastern Europe, and that their participation is forced. Very disturbing indeed.

I am by no means a "prude" either (which some seem compelled to argue about those who argue that this is sex). It just seems to me very straightforward if one is being honest about what sex work entails.

[pitohui]

83. a nude woman jerking off a man for pay is sex work

in what universe of self delusion is this not sex work? they are providing sexual release for a profit to themselves

they maybe don't want to admit what they're doing because, in most states and most counties, they are in violation of the law, and they may feel they are pretty safe from prosecution as long as they can masquerade as massage "therapists" but the only people they're fooling are their mothers and themselves

i hope your friends are paying taxes on their income, or we can add tax cheat as well as sex worker to their resume

it may be ethical to sell an orgasm but in most parts of the country it is not legal so your friends should be careful about where they share this information about how they're supporting themselves

and living in a neighborhood where young women are VISIBLY selling themselves destroys the neighborhood and the property values, been there, done that, i just hope you are renting, massage "therapists" may be independent contractors but where there is a lot of sex selling, then the pimps and the drug dealers always move in, in the end, and where there are pimps/drugs, there are guns...what starts as a seemingly victimless crime DOES destroy neighborhoods, i've seen it w. my own eyes (and knew a harmless man who was brutally murdered in my own neighborhood when it changed too fast)...yes, there were MANY massage "parlors" and "spas" for awhile but sooner than you'd think, the "spas" were gone and the street enterprise w. guns had arrived

on edit; i also agree w. others who point out that some of the workers in some of these massage "parlors" are not there out of choice

[Noodleboy13]

92. Taxes? Really?

I am sorry that you have had a bad experience with a neighborhood in decline, I can assure you that is not the case here. Additionally, there are not women "visibly selling themselves." In order to even contact my friends, you would have to be on a website that caters to this business.

And again, the reason I started this post was to see what other people thought of this; I do not consider my friends sex workers, nor do they. They do understand that they are in a very grey area however.
I recently had an epiphany about this, easily parsed into SAT format, inspired by of my friends who told me she was going to a burlesque show. So, In my opinion:
Massage work is to Prostitution as
Burlesque Shows are to Strip Clubs

peace
Noodleboy

[HopeHoops]

90. Let them be. If that's what they want to do, why care?

[Blue_Tires]

105. FWIW, back when I was in college I also had two friends who did happy ending massage

including "full service" (i.e., full vaginal penetration) for their most generous clients -- But this was rare and I know they had debates back and forth about the ethics of their actions...

They just saw it as doing what it took to make a buck and survive--Two young girls as roommates in a new city a thousand miles from home needing a plan "B" just to pay rent...Although they provided certain 'services' for money (when the massage business was slow they also worked the phone sex lines), deep down they never really thought of themselves as sex workers, but they had NO illusions that they were real professional massage therapists...

[Jennicut]

108. Oh, there are plenty of those in Waterbury, CT.

My husband works for a gas company and collects payments and shuts people off for non payment. He told me about some of the so called massage parlors he had to get payment from. I guess some were busted because they are there for a little while and then just suddenly they are gone one day. It is pretty obvious what is going on when you have blackened windows. However, I don't put any judgement on these women. They do what it takes to survive and some people come from very difficult situations. Are they sex workers? Probably. But then, I think most of this stuff should just be legalized.

[Arkana]

110. I didn't think this existed outside of Thailand.

[cbrer]

119. Hey! This is legitimate therapy

Because, well, because I said so!

[PotatoChip]

120. My mother gave me a gift certificate for 5 sessions

a couple of years ago for a B-Day present. It was amazing!!! I had no idea that message therapists could do that!!!

In all seriousness though, this woman did wonders for my back and neck problems. Completely professional and not a hint of anything otherwise.

Umm- though I may be late in saying so, you still may want to note the difference in your OP. Not telling you what to do, just saying that there is probably (have not tried the other) a huge difference.

Peace to you too!