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I am against any US military intervention in Syria (and Iran) (Original Post) bluestateguy Feb 2012 OP
I agree ,but with 15,000 in Kuwait orpupilofnature57 Feb 2012 #1
I can agree with that. southernyankeebelle Feb 2012 #2
I agree. nt Poll_Blind Feb 2012 #3
I am against all war of any kind lunatica Feb 2012 #4
Really? Do you think the black people living in the south would be better off? TheWraith Feb 2012 #5
You don't get my premise at all lunatica Feb 2012 #7
I get your premise completely. It's just wrong. TheWraith Feb 2012 #8
Your tirade is based on the assumption of previous wars lunatica Feb 2012 #9
LOL- thanks for the laugh. nt Poll_Blind Feb 2012 #13
Ditto malaise Feb 2012 #6
You don't want to be an ISOLATIONIST!!! do you? Zalatix Feb 2012 #10
100% agree. David__77 Feb 2012 #11
K&R quinnox Feb 2012 #12
Amen. n/t Neue Regel Feb 2012 #14
The neocons are alive and well woo me with science Feb 2012 #15

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
4. I am against all war of any kind
Fri Feb 3, 2012, 09:10 PM
Feb 2012

I think even Lincoln should have allowed the South to become another country. We would all be better off today if that had happened.

TheWraith

(24,331 posts)
5. Really? Do you think the black people living in the south would be better off?
Fri Feb 3, 2012, 09:11 PM
Feb 2012

Seriously?

How about, do you think everyone would be better off if the Allies hadn't opposed the Nazis?

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
7. You don't get my premise at all
Fri Feb 3, 2012, 09:23 PM
Feb 2012

Slavery would have been abolished in other ways and Hitler would have never happened if WWI hadn't happened. He was a direct product of WWI.

There was a very active underground railroad where slaves went to the northern states to gain their freedom. Surely you've hear of it. Other forms of pressure could easily have been used. Sanctions and refusal to do business with slave owners could have been used.

War is not necessary if you want to implement change. Ask Gandhi or Mandela or MLK Jr. how to bring major change.

TheWraith

(24,331 posts)
8. I get your premise completely. It's just wrong.
Fri Feb 3, 2012, 09:47 PM
Feb 2012

And ridiculously, naively optimistic. It's like saying that there would be no war if it weren't for other wars, going back infinitely to a chicken and the egg thing. Not to mention, fuck anyone who is in need of freedom until then, like the three million black people in the Confederacy, whom the underground railroad could never have hoped to save more than a tiny fraction of. Look at attitudes in the south today toward blacks, and tell me that there REALLY would have been some kind of clean and easy abolition of slavery if we'd just said "Okay, go ahead and keep owning human beings as property, torturing them, and murdering them. It's cool."

You also don't know the history of what you're saying: Mandela was the co-founder and leader of the armed insurrection wing of the ANC, and he actively directed sabotage and bombing campaigns as well as preparation for guerrilla warfare. He was also on the record as saying that his own years of effort and increasing repression had convinced him that non-violent protest had not and could not achieve progress against apartheid.

Also, Ghandi openly said this in 1946: "Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs... It would have aroused the world and the people of Germany... As it is they succumbed anyway in their millions."

So Ghandi's strategy of "pacifism at all costs" basically said that if someone wanted to come into your home, take your possessions, rape your children, and then torture you to death, you should let them do it. And I'm not exaggerating--he said that too, in 1940 about the Nazis. "I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions... If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourselves, man, woman, and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them."

So pardon me if I find it wrongheaded to say that we should simply surrender the world to the worst human beings we can find.

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
9. Your tirade is based on the assumption of previous wars
Fri Feb 3, 2012, 10:00 PM
Feb 2012

there's a reason people come to understand pacifism. Wars create more wars.

Think about what would happen if countries actually worked just as hard to create peaceful solutions instead of going to war.

 

Zalatix

(8,994 posts)
10. You don't want to be an ISOLATIONIST!!! do you?
Fri Feb 3, 2012, 10:01 PM
Feb 2012

That's okay, if not sending our troops into danger in countries that don't threaten America is isolationist, then I am one, too.

David__77

(23,372 posts)
11. 100% agree.
Fri Feb 3, 2012, 11:50 PM
Feb 2012

And not because I'm a pacifist, because I am not. There is just war and unjust war. Any US war against Syria or Iran would be profoundly immoral and unjust.

 

quinnox

(20,600 posts)
12. K&R
Fri Feb 3, 2012, 11:57 PM
Feb 2012

I am already against the next war. I will not support any more military action without a hell of a good reason, i.e. another country directly attacks the United States or a US military base. Otherwise, its really none of our business quite frankly and we have zero moral authority to intervene.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
15. The neocons are alive and well
Sat Feb 4, 2012, 06:09 PM
Feb 2012

and ramping up once again.

Gotta protect the MIC. I am heartened to see so many being proactive about saying NO. This is not the only discussion board where I am seeing this sentiment already.

Play the same game long enough, and people catch on eventually...

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