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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHow do you use the terms freedom and not cowering and lock down towns over a nineteen year old
This is one fucked up dangerous precedent
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)this is a 19-year old who has killed 3 people, maimed nearly 200, and who has bombs? Personally, I don't think this is an overreaction.
WI_DEM
(33,497 posts)slackmaster
(60,567 posts)Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)Had a running gun battle with LEO.
Guns were definitely involved.
Both were armed with firearms.
Just saying different does not make it so.
Rex
(65,616 posts)You work for CNN?
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)The Gungeoneers are desperate now.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Is their fear that overblown?
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)They are out in force today, looking foolish...yet once again.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Never thought I would see this day!
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)You can't tell him anymore because he was killed by gunfire.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)it's counterproductive, you know, and will only hurt your cause....
Rex
(65,616 posts)I never thought I would see this day!
Hint: I might have asked them if they worked for CNN in this very thread.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)I think the DU experiment with the gun folks has not worked out very well at all...I guess we had to try...but...
Rex
(65,616 posts)with bullets and firearms. Anyone that doesn't believe me, just ask the NRA.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)Bragged on other forums about his exploits here.
Right Wing Gun Humping Liar.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)I struggle with it. But I have TRIED.
Maybe, a reconsideration is due on this thing. I would hope so. Just a look at how this has played out and seeing what can be done. This isn't a small issue on DU. It is BIG. AT some point, I feel this might just be overwhelming, one way or another. I don't know. I really don't...it bothers me...
Rex
(65,616 posts)but don't believe the government is coming to take away our firearms, have tried explaining why it is silly to take that seriously or why we don't want to own 6,000 rounds of ammo.
Maybe this bombing has really wound the NRA crowd really tight. Dunno.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)Some of us (myself included) had serious reservations, but thought that in the end, it would play out and look very bad for the gun extremists. And that is what has happened, I do believe. Now DU can say, well, we tried and gave them a chance. There are people like you, proving that you can own guns and not be obsessed with them. The others, the irrational types, have in the end shown their true colors.
Rex
(65,616 posts)I think the admins have bent over backward trying to accommodate the NRA crowd, even as tensions rise, they still give a lot of leeway. I know there are many on this site that own guns, to them it is not a big deal and they are used for hunting etc.. to those I say good job at keeping your sanity around some insane gunlovers. I've bitten my tongue a lot over the last year or so about firearms.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)I don't think people who have never experienced gun violence and loss of a family member can ever really understand what we, who have experienced it, go through. How could they? I don't wish this on anybody, I see what it did in my family. Yes, you pick up the pieces and go on but some don't quite pick up all the pieces...those pieces stay and murder their souls just as their loved ones were murdered. I don't know how else to describe it...
I lost an uncle to gun violence and what makes it worse is that alcohol was involved between both parties (both were shooting at each other). I am still angry and baffled by the loss. That was over 30 years go. I'll never lose that memory. It tore family members apart.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)At least you were able to prevent yourself from the ol' "What, are we gonna ban pressure cookers now?" Whatever helps you sleep at night.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)People are free to leave their homes - if they want to get killed. They're trying to keep people safe.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)This is not martial law.
Whether or not it is overreaction is certainly debatable, but martial law has a definition and this is nowhere near it.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)It's a shelter in place order
cali
(114,904 posts)his age is relevant? No, it's not. your op is ridiculous. It's hardly like they've instituted martial law. and considering the mayhem that's transpired overnight, they're using prudence.
why post more bullshit?
malaise
(269,157 posts)It is a frightening precedent - I hope you understand that.
cali
(114,904 posts)and they are not telling people they'll be arrested or detained if they go out.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Granted, 99% of dangerous fugitives flee to rural or less populated places, but they put that little town he escaped to on lockdown...
malaise
(269,157 posts)The bomb they found and the threat of others probably justifies their actions
onenote
(42,745 posts)This is someone who had both the means and the apparent willingness to plant explosives over an extended period of time -- explosives that could be triggered by cell phone.
You have no idea where these guys were or what they were doing between Monday and last night (or before Monday). They could have set booby-trapped explosives.
Comparing this to a lone gunman on the run is absurd.
If its a precedent for what would happen in my neighborhood if there was a similar situation, I'm more than cool with it. To the extent its a "precedent" for anything else? You're speculating.
Roland99
(53,342 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)sharp_stick
(14,400 posts)I think your avatar might have special meaning for an argument like this.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)Explain in detsail how those two vastly differing situations are exactly the same.
dballance
(5,756 posts)What a stupid analogy. The two things are so dissimilar it ridiculous to try to compare them.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)datasuspect
(26,591 posts)better shut down the south and west sides.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Every single person I know in town and in the area is VERY glad the police handling this in this manner.
Those who don't know this city........you just don't know.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)I really wish non-Bostonians would just butt out on this one.
dems_rightnow
(1,956 posts).... you win.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)Needed that.
Logical
(22,457 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)What specifically leads you to believe his agenda was to have law enforcement temporarily disrupt a city leaving no lasting or direct consequences?
Logical
(22,457 posts)ieoeja
(9,748 posts)The Jihadis hope that if they terrorize Americans enough, we will withdraw our support for anybody who opposes their violent attempts to expand the territory currently under Sharia law.
I'm fairly certain they don't give a shit whether the people of Boston go about their business or not except for that business related to stopping their attempts at conquest.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)but I don't think this is that.
This is an extremely dangerous individual who has left a swath of carnage, including running over his brother as he escaped the shootout (unless that has been debunked?).
They seemed certain about the area he was in.
As people wake up, kids are heading to bus stops and schools, crowds appearing on streets and public transit, honestly I don't have a problem with the local authorites and FBI imploring people to stay inside and making it clear that this was not a normal day in the Boston area.
At the current standoff, I was watching streaming video where the cops were ushering women holding toddlers into their homes in the neighborhood.
I don't think this is a bad precedent. I think it truly is about public safety.
I have been face to face with cops pulling police state tactics, abusing authority, using excessive force. I have been arrested at a peaceful protest. I am NOT an apologist or defender of cops. Ever. I err on the side of 'cops are pigs'. And I still don't think that's the case here.
malaise
(269,157 posts)precedent is frightening and no nineteen year old should believe he's that powerful.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)What precisely is this precedent you refer to, and what, in practical terms, will this precedent specifically lead to?
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)that abused the hell outta that situation, horrible horrible shit over a natural disaster.
This is nowhere near as high up on the list of dangerous precedents. If it goes on for a long time and cops start bashing heads maybe we can talk about that.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)they are waiting him out. May have hostages.
I agree with both --with those who say this is prudent and those who say it is overkill. America always does overkill. On the other hand, they do not want any more deaths.
We should not have a 'get on with life and move on" attitude while this is going on. People need to take every precaution. On the other hand--I sympathize with those who say that this kind of violence and mayhem goes on everyday in America, and we allow it to go on...
So yeah, we're in a paradox here.
Dorian Gray
(13,498 posts)FSogol
(45,519 posts)obnoxiousdrunk
(2,910 posts)MOTRDemocrat
(87 posts)And throw red, rubber noses at him until he laughs so hard he falls to the ground.
Then we can put him on an island to frolic and play like in Norway.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Must be nice to have some distance on this. Bunch of my friends almost died on Monday. The helicopters are over my house.
malaise
(269,157 posts)I lived through guns and helicopters in 1979/80.
I understand the fear and urgency of this situation - I just worry about the precedent
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)These guys bombed the goddam marathon. Maybe we should let them go and avoid setting the "precedent"?
I'm honestly curious: what do you suggest?
malaise
(269,157 posts)it's the bombs that change the tactics. I just fear the removal of more freedoms.
I remember when the police excesses started here and now there are curfews at will in certain neighborhoods.
I guess the question is how do you keep people safe without removing freedoms?
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Boston is a small city geographically with small winding streets and people who don't have cars. The police can't fucking do their jobs if they have to move around crowds of people to get a t a subject with bombs and guns who has already engaged the police in a firefight, killed a cop, robbed a store.
Seriously...........
Arkana
(24,347 posts)I'd hope that any major city's police force could handle a manhunt of this scale as efficiently as the Boston PD is doing now. The worst thing that civilians are being asked to do is stay indoors--what did you think, that SWAT was kicking down every door in every town in the Greater Boston Area?
supernaut
(44 posts)With all due respect, a bunch of your friends almost dying is not cause to suspend civil liberties in an entire city. The deaths of ANY number of people is not cause to suspend civil liberties ANYWHERE, for ANY reason.
Would you be OK with this if they told the entire eastern seaboard to stay in their homes?
The entire United States?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)If there is an escaped convict on the loose, police always tell people nearby to stay in their homes. This could be the stupidest thread I've ever seen here.
supernaut
(44 posts)There has never been a case in American history where an entire city was instructed to stay in doors and not to communicate or travel in order to find one person.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)You sure you want to stick with that?
Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)such drama.
dballance
(5,756 posts)Are you not paying attention or can you just not grasp the fact that the only thing the police have done is ask people to stay inside for their own safety? If some idiot wants to go out and try to face a person who's already killed 3 people, injured more than 100 others, thrown grenades at the police and may be wearing a vest made of explosives then they are still free to do so.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)They had explosives strapped to themselves and the public was in danger.
Capturing the perp ASAP has to be the priority and preventing a hostage situation is difficult but absolutely of the highest priority.
Do you want little kids on the streets waiting for the buses or walking to school while you have a person who is proven to want to randomly kill civilians out there? Limiting the damage is imperative.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)The sooner they get him, the safer the people of that area will be. Remember not too long ago (weeks actually) all of MA put into effect a temporary ban on people driving. Why? A snow storm. What do they have in common? They are both public safety situations. So are we calling that a limit on civil liberties?
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)It's a public safety bulletin, that's all.
Someone who would do something like the bombing, and then the murder of the cop? You can't assume that this person would stop at anything.
Also it is apparently confirmed that the dead brother did have an explosive trigger on his body and the report from the convenience store robbery was of explosive vests.
All this guy would have to do is walk onto a school bus with a bunch of kids and you would instantly have a Beslan-type horror of a hostage-type situation. Nor would it be likely to end well. We do not need another Newtown massacre to add to the this week's toll of death and suffering in Boston.
The cops and other public safety officials are doing their job properly. These two guys declared war on Boston. One dead kid out of this is more than enough. They are very unlikely to get this guy alive, and the hope would be now that he doesn't get to take any more people with him.
Very, very few people anywhere in the world are motivated to act like these people have done. Anytime they are willing to do it, and they are confirmed to have the means to do it, these types of actions are appropriate and failure to institute such measures would be reckless disregard.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)Working on a rush job and of course the news was kind of distracting. Caught four hours and then up and back at it. The news is getting even more distracting.
I did understand you, I was just so pissed at the OP's obliviousness that I went on a rant.
You were very clear, I was not.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)I've been stuck doing the same. The more I watch it, the more insane it makes me. I had it turned off around 5 am EST (7 pm here) and swore up and down I wasn't going to turn it back on. That didn't last long.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)I swore I wouldn't bother with CNN again a while ago.
BBC has some good coverage. I don't think many people realize just how intensely dangerous this is. All it takes is for this mass-murdering jerk to get down to the gas mains, and OMG.
We have to hope that this is indeed amateur hour. I am literally praying.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)They tend to hype stuff too much. CNN did the same thing with the situation in North Korea. I had to keep telling people, it's not as bad as they make it out to be. If people listened to them they would think the entire country is on edge like in Boston. Personally if I had to choose between Boston or South Korea, I'd choose South Korea. I feel sorry for the people over there with all they are going through.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)My personal boycott continues and was only confirmed this week.
The media should be informing rather than setting fires, IMO.
distantearlywarning
(4,475 posts)It's not martial law or stepping on people's freedoms, they're just trying to keep people safe this morning - this guy has explosives and guns and has demonstrated that he is willing to kill innocents in the pursuit of his goals. Also, it makes the police's job easier and faster when there aren't random citizens wandering around and gawking everywhere and taking pictures on their Iphones, etc. It's just like a mini-quarantine, like if there was an infectious disease and people had to stay inside for a while to avoid causing a bigger public safety problem.
They will catch this guy at some point this morning, and there will have been minimal bloodshed because of this lockdown. Then the citizens of Boston will be able to get back to their business-as-usual. It's all good.
Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)Grow the fuck up.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)and threw a bunch of bombs, including another pressure cooker bomb, at the police.
The brother they have not yet killed is likely armed, not with a gun, but with more IEDs, in a relatively small city with many narrow streets.
And they want to get this guy. They do not want him to escape, let alone mow down a bunch of school children getting off the bus while he tries.
Better to shut things down, get him cornered and take him. Then back to business as usual with minimum disruption.
nmbluesky
(2,561 posts)They have to no choice for that monster. And catch him soon
WI_DEM
(33,497 posts)boston bean
(36,223 posts)less people out and about, the better their chances.
Plus, no large crowds of people for this terrorist to blow up innocents.
kentuck
(111,110 posts)BUT this will be a topic of discussion with a little distance, I am sure.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)But BOMBS. Shrapnel bombs. Seems like things are okay (per Facebook and DU - I ignore tv news folks at this point).
malaise
(269,157 posts)What a mess
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)I'm waiting for the first posts claiming the cops didn't do enough to take Timberland or whatever the fuck his name is alive and they gunned him down in cold blood.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)malaise
(269,157 posts)sure there were times they had to leave and head for shelters but life went on in the middle of war
actslikeacarrot
(464 posts)That is all the police are asking the public to do, stay indoors until this is cleared up.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)and I don't care his or her age, they do tend to be young, and told me I shouldn't ride the Metro to work, I'd salute happily and stay in my nice, cosy house. Consider the DC sniper... these guys were going on a shooting spree (I happen to live in between two of the locations people were shot and killed) but they didn't shut shit down for that and that's understandable. The snipers didn't have IEDs or bombs strapped to their chests. We're American citizens and it's the responsibility of our officials to keep us as safe as possible, if that means telling people to stay indoors while an IED-wielding madman is out and about, I'm okay with that. Just like I'm okay when a governor declares a weather state of emergency telling people to stay off the roads for their own safety.
adigal
(7,581 posts)I am always worried about police overreaching, but this is comparable, as ou said, to a weather state of emergency. Telling New Yorkers to stay indoors during Hurricane Sandy because it was possibly dangerous out of doors is the same thing as here. It is just smart to stay out of the way!
Enrique
(27,461 posts)what you say doesn't deserve to be mocked, even if you turn out to be wrong.
malaise
(269,157 posts)freedoms. That said they know more than me and there are more bombs out there.
poster is a long standing contributing member of the DU community. There is no reason to be nasty.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)were dead - they flew planes into buildings. And there was no cell service in NYC on 9/11 due to the cell tower being on top of the north tower. If making a phone call is so fucking important, make it and put your life and those around you in danger - knock yourself out.
ecstatic
(32,727 posts)adults and many teens have one.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)The scope of the power of law enforcement was made very clear during Occupy.
Freedom is a relative concept.
kentuck
(111,110 posts)Just my opinion.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)My post was sincere, and literal.
I don't understand exactly what malaise means, and I was hoping she would offer a more extensive explanation before I commented any further about it.
malaise
(269,157 posts)and I found the idea of making people stay put troubling. I do understand the fear of bombs and understand the fact that they had to have controlled demolition.
I noticed that this afternoon they are telling folks that it's OK to leave their workplaces and they can ask family to pick them up or drive home. Taxis are also running. That means that all those night shift workers were stuck.
Some persons here have talked down my fears but I have lived through the erosion of civil liberties.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)I am for sure.
We are all victims of a rapidly decaying system that needs to be replaced, but at the same time is, by its nature, resistant to significant, positive, constructive change. Violent, deluded reactionary extremists arise out of the inequities and injustice of the system, and commit acts of frustrated mindless violence that only bolster the power of the system's gatekeepers to curtail our civil liberties.
I'd love to change the world, but the status quo prevents like minded people from assembling and implementing constructive changes.
Maybe someday, enough of us will get together in solidarity, and we can bring about the changes necessary that will make acts of mindless violent terrorism and the consequent reactionary losses of civil liberties a thing of the past.
malaise
(269,157 posts)Thanks
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Thanks for bringing the subject up.
Arkana
(24,347 posts)And if he's evaded capture this long, he's either received military training, is very lucky, or dead.
It's for public safety and I think you're going to have a hard time finding people who disagree.
dballance
(5,756 posts)Your post might as well be on Alex Jones' site. Suggesting that the government is going to take away our guns and our freedom.
Martial Law has not been declared. The police have not ordered people to stay inside. They have advised them and asked them to stay inside for their own safety. People are still free to go outside if they wish. They can hop in their cars and try to evacuate the area. They'll run into roadblocks but they can do it if they wish.
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)You're OK having people walk into a potential fire fight? Unbelievable.
sarisataka
(18,751 posts)and the state police ask people to stay home and off the roads.
I never view that as a loss of freedom, lock down or martial law
randome
(34,845 posts)I think seeing a 'shelter in place' REQUEST as being an over-reaction is, in itself, an over-reaction.
NotThisTime
(3,657 posts)to his chest... that is a good idea....
Why don't you head into Boston right now?
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Not sure what else needs to be said really.
It's not like the police are going to lock down the city simply over the threat of a bomb. This kid has set them off before and at least one eye witness says they saw him or his late brother with another.
suffragette
(12,232 posts)given the guns and explosives that the suspect has been using. If a school was open, he could head there and cause more devastation.
When WTO was going on here, I marched and, later, went to listen to speakers and to be outside at a point we were being shoved inside. So, I understand what you are saying from a personal point of view.
But, this is different. It's a specific event with a volatile situation that's unfolded quickly and in which there is a great deal of uncertainty. If this is extended into weeks, that is a different case, but in this short term, it's best to not give him the opportunity to blend into the crowd or take hostages.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)on this, I think we are seeing it differently. In such a heated situation as this, I don't think they would have to ask me twice to lay low and avoid getting caught in the crossfire. There is a time to fight for civil liberties, yes, but in this situation, today, staying safe to fight another day would be smarter.
ecstatic
(32,727 posts)Other "sleepers" waiting to bomb another big event. I want this guy questioned. His age is irrelevant.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)unable to process having been wrong about the Muslim angle and are now trying to re-establish self-esteem by running around to the front of the parade with a lot of ad hoc Bush-era gibberish.
It's really pathetic.
Amaya
(4,560 posts)and I am not cowering.... I want this little fucker caught.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)stronger, not weaker. But right now, I have a sense of unease and won't be entirely calm until this thing is resolved. It has been a dreadful week for all of us, but for the people of the Boston area, especially...
malaise
(269,157 posts)I hope this will soon be over
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)what a disaster...
malaise
(269,157 posts)and then there's that horrific fire in Texas
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)A lot of chickens coming home to roost. Depressing.
malaise
(269,157 posts)What an awful week.
Apophis
(1,407 posts)DeschutesRiver
(2,354 posts)Who has a suicide bomb strapped to his chest and says he is going to kill more because his big brother was shot by cops.
It is like russian roulette to guess where he is and if he means what he says. Rate your odds and act accordingly. I would treat the danger from the kid like a natural disaster - if I don't think I'd get hit from a hurricane, I would stay put. Otherwise I would evacuate.
It doesn't set any precedent one way or the other, just means using common sense where there is a risk factor. I'd stay at home and hope he wasn't nearby because this won't last forever. If I had urgent business I'd do it but not otherwise. Common sense isn't cowering.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Try the word "Community" instead.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Hekate
(90,773 posts)Bragi
(7,650 posts)The one useful result of this entire wretched and evil incident is that we now know for sure that ordinary Americans will indeed comply with a takeover of their communities and their homes by armed government forces. Ain't no 2nd amendment militias in sight.
kenny blankenship
(15,689 posts)Terror bombing - 3 dead, 170+ wounded with amputations and other serious maiming injuries...
Ambush of police officer - 1 dead campus police person shot in cold blood
Armed Robbery
Carjacking
Running gun battles in residential neighborhoods, with IEDs used, cops shot...
Massive risk of hostage taking, and civilian injuries from explosives and remembering that this event began with mass murder, further attempts to run up the body count just to do as much damage as possible before the end.
Hell YES, law enforcement at all levels responds in force - and this is completely appropriate.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)Sorry, but that is how it breaks down. I think MA state response was sane and necessary and they cooperated with local and with federal agencies smoothly and very well. I was pleased with it. It is the way that government should act...
LiberalElite
(14,691 posts)He's a nineteen year old allegedly involved in multiple vicious crimes. Yes, I thought it was overkill at first, around 7a.m. on Friday when I turned on MSNBC and saw the virtual invasion of Watertown with Swat teams and dozens of police cars. But when I learned from reading an article on the NY Times website what had transpired overnight, i decided they're doing what they have to do.
DainBramaged
(39,191 posts)And they kept it u.
Bullshit
we've opened Pandora's box and it ain't pretty.