Do sexual assault victims have an obligation to resist/protest?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

Or can someone using their personal status coerce the victim into sex?

If the assualter --

* didn't use force, violence, threaten or abuse the victim

and the victim --

* didn't resist, object, say no, gave no indication of not wanting it, opens their own clothing

Is it still sexual assault?

If Uncle Brad crawls into bed with Kelly and Kelly merely passively accepts is Uncle Brad guilty of a crime? I'm being told elsewhere there is no crime/offense.

Yeah, this is a biased survey. Yeah, I'm shaking mad.

[Quantess]

1. If you're the one asking us, why are you shaking mad already?

I must be missing something.

[seabeyond]

3. ya... lol, you are. i think it is real clear.

if a woman does not have bruises, is it rape? really, rape rape.

if a girl doesnt scream no to sex with a stranger and no acceptance in the situation, but just accepts the inevitable is it rape? rape rape?

[Quantess]

8. Is this a carryover conversation from another thread?

I'm just wondering why she's shaking mad before anybody even answered the question.

[seabeyond]

12. i dont know. i dont know where it is coming from. nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

13. Yes. Sorry. I'm a little flush with emotion -- in case you hadn't guessed. n/t

[Quantess]

16. Sorry, I was just wanting a little background.

Who would ever suggest something like that would ever be okay?! That's f****** sick.
Someone said that, here on DU? Yikes.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

23. Nothing for you to apologize for. Your inquiry was absolutely fair.

I tend to be a little vague sometimes.

And thank-you for your comments.

[Boombaby]

151. But...

What are you referring to? A link would be helpful.

[Maine-ah]

190. My guess would be the Kennedy thread.

[DutchLiberal]

88. Read my post #86 in this thread before you jump to conclusions.

"Who would ever suggest something like that would ever be okay?! That's f****** sick.
Someone said that, here on DU? Yikes."

Like I said in post #86 in this thread: nobody ever did. It's a pity the OP deliberately led you and many others to that false conclusion.

[DutchLiberal]

86. It's a silent call-out of me, from the JFK-thread in GD...

There was a bit of news this week about the memoirs of a teen intern at the White House who had an affair with Kennedy. In the book, she describes how she first met JFK when she was 19 years old, he took her on a tour through the White House, which ended in Jackie's bedroom. There he started to feel her up, upon which she unbuttoned her shirt and then they did it.

This is key: the woman doesn't describe the act as rape. She doesn't write Kennedy forced her or threatened her. She doesn't write she objected or resisted. Just that she had sex with him and that it was her first time.

Now the OP said that, to believe that story "is believing JFK was essentially a rapist". Upon which I called bullshit, using the arguments the OP repeats literally.

However, and the OP knows this very well, I was talking about a specific case, concerning adults. The OP choose, willingly, to include a case of pedosexuality/incest. You know, to add to the drama.

There has been a disturbing number of "all women are powerless victims of all men" threads on DU the last month. I think this one falls into the same category.

[DutchLiberal]

110. Either discuss or don't. But don't be childish like this.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

125. The subject is non-consenting sex.

If you can't handle it without deflecting to some self-pitying nonsense then you -- and any female near you -- has a problem. Just because there is no violence or protest from the victim doesn't mean it isn't sexual assault. Power dynamics and positions of trust can be abused to instigate sexual assault.

THAT is the issue.

If you can explain why that might not be true feel free try.

[DutchLiberal]

128. If a woman gives no indication of objection and/or goes along with the man, it's not assault.

Following your train of thought, every man who ever had sex with a woman who regretted it later on, could be brought to court for sexual assault. Why, the woman didn't object or resist and even went along with the man (taking off her own clothes) while the man did absolutely nothing to threaten or force her... CLEARLY that is sexual assault! Lock him up and throw away the key!

Doesn't that sound at least a BIT silly to you?

Remember, we're not talking about intoxicated or drugged persons here, or people who are otherwise unable to object. We're talking about mentally capable adults here.

Have it your way and no man is ever safe after having sex ever again.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

132. So there's no such thing as an abuse of power or trust?

I guess that ages old professional ethics prohibition against doctors, lawyers, therapists etc sleeping with patients should be done away with. And certainly it's silly to think a President carries some sort of sense of power or trust with them.

[DutchLiberal]

140. How is it "abuse of power" when the man in question doesn't threaten anybody?

Yes, if a professor who say to a student: "sleep with me or else I'm not gonna let you pass this class", that's abuse of power. If a boss tells an emplyee: "sleep with me or else you lose your job", that's abuse of power. But abuse of power is not the same as assault. Abuse of power should be reported under sexual harrassment laws.

But if they don't say or otherwise suggest/imply that, where is the abuse? So a man in a position of power can never have sex?

[Nikia]

174. Well if every other time he tells you do something, he expects it to be done

And there will be consequences if you don't, the threat might be implied.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

176. From the guy that brought you complaints of false equivalency come false dichotomy & strawmen

But if they don't say or otherwise suggest/imply that, where is the abuse? So a man in a position of power can never have sex?

He can keep it zipped until she says yes. He can keep his damned hands to himself instead of just leading her to a quiet place and having sex without consent. You complain we should not "suggest/imply" rape yet you seem quite content/intent to suggest/imply consent. If you had your choice between a cheap nut or the risk of using a person who did not want to be used but was too scared to say otherwise, which SHOULD you choose? How would you want your family treated?

[roguevalley]

15. no is enough

[obamanut2012]

18. You don't even have to say "no"

That still puts the onus on the rape victim to have to say they don't want to be raped. The ONLY situation where you should "have to" say "no" is date rape. I think stranger rape and incest and molesting children is kind of a given that it's unwanted.

[roguevalley]

184. agreed. I wonder why there isn't more optics on men than women. what the hell is wrong with so many

men?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

4. I'm stunned such a thing could be advanced in a progressive forum.

I guess I'm asking for reassurance that the troglodyte faction is the exception to the rule.

[obamanut2012]

19. I'm thinking I'm glad I didn't see that thread

Because I have to teach a class in a bit.

[alcibiades_mystery]

28. The rapist in question here appears to be John F. Kennedy

So, yeah, the whole thing is off the rails entirely.

[obamanut2012]

50. omg

I know the thread, I just didn't click on it.

[left coaster]

20. This forum is very progressive when it comes to sexual orientation rights, and racial issues..

Womens' rights and issues? Not quite there yet.

[seabeyond]

22. patriarchy, sexism, misogynist is not party grown. nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

24. Definitely cultural -- but cultures can change for the better

That's what I'm hoping for, at least.

[seabeyond]

25. i am right there with you. we had an hour conversation with 16, 14 yr old sons, hubby

about what we see today and how our youth is processing. better or worse. and the effects of our society on the kids.

damn.... i told hubby, it sure is fun having smart kids.

truly

no more greater joy then to get ass kicked in debate on youth and gender issues, lol. ah ha

also how we are seeing a difference in the teens today and what they have learned from the 20 somethings that were effect in an experiment without experience.

[DutchLiberal]

100. Nor is misandry and male-bashing apparantly.

[seabeyond]

103. this would be the same bogus bullshit like duers claiming ALL sex is an assault? nt

[DutchLiberal]

115. Oh, so randomly throwing in the tired, worn-out "patriarchy", "misogyny" etc. is okay

but citing "misandry" is not allowed?

More of your infamous double standards.

[seabeyond]

117. you have "cited" shit, yet.... nt

[LanternWaste]

119. I don't think pointing out a false equivalency is disallowing anyone from using "misandry" in a sent

I don't think pointing out a false equivalency is disallowing anyone from using "misandry" in a sentence as they are two wholly separate things...

[DutchLiberal]

123. There's no false equivalency. Just the usual pattern on DU...

Women can say all they want about men, because that's "empowering". Men can't say anything about women, because you know, "patriarchy", "rape culture", "objectification", "misogyny" and what have you not.

[seabeyond]

134. ya, right... like throwing out duers saying all sex is assault. no man can go around saying that

garbage

ever

so picked on.

[whathehell]

189. +10..n/t

[DutchLiberal]

102. The fact is, you made something completely different out of what was originally said...

... to create a thread that fits in seamlessly with all the other misandrist male-bashing threads of ther past month on DU.

You deliberately left out that the original conversation was about adults, not about an adult man abusing little children, as you so manipulatively put in your OP.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

105. More like you deliberately left out abuses of power to coerce people who don't consent

It doesn't matter what the age of the victim is. Unless the victim CONSENTS it is ASSAULT.

Feel free to climb off your "misandry" self-pitying high horse. What's your next cheap excuse? Gonna call a woman who disagrees a prude? Maybe she's not getting enough?

[DutchLiberal]

113. She unbuttoned her shirt for him, when he was in no way forcing/threatening her

You see what you want to see, you read what you want to read.

You WANT that girl to be a victim, you WANT that man to be an attacker! The actual facts be damned!

"Gonna call a woman who disagrees a prude? Maybe she's not getting enough?"

Wow, that's some nasty character assassination. Something tells me you're not interested in a real discussion. The only thing you seem to be interested in, is hearing that this girl was a victim, even when she DOESN'T DESCRIBE HERSELF as one.

[justiceischeap]

2. I think the answer is obvious

Keep in mind, most women are told if we are sexually assaulted, not to resist because it could put us further in danger.

One, of a paranoid mind, could surmise that we are being told not to resist so it makes it more difficult to prosecute later. I mean, some people think women who didn't really want to be assaulted would resist. Of course, that's just a way for some people of saying a woman deserves it.

[Johonny]

27. yip

Saw an Olympic swimmer on TV one time. A really strong women. Basically told about being raped. As strong as she was her attacker pretty much overwhelmed her. People didn't believe she couldn't fight back... blah, blah, blah. Desire to resist and ability to resist are vastly different things.

[joeybee12]

5. Yeah, bite the guy's hand that he has a gun or knife in...

Get shot in the face and then we'll call it rape...and only then.

[justiceischeap]

7. Nope, then it becomes murder, forget the rape

The prosecutor would go for the more severe charge.

[DutchLiberal]

104. The OP specifically said no threatening was involved, so your sarcasm is completely misplaced.

No need for overly dramatic exaggerations. Keep discussions fair or else don't engage in them.

[Brickbat]

6. It's generally accepted that a power differential can be seen as coercion, but just because a power

differential exists does not mean there is coercion.

Why argue about Uncle Brad and Kelly? Assuming Kelly's a minor, there's no discussion to be had. That has nothing to do with power; it's the law.

[moriah]

77. What about other cases where it is legally rape? Because of power differential?

Take, for example, a prison guard having sex with an inmate, in my state.

There are some situations where the power differential is too great for the victim to truly be able to give consent -- would the inmate have had sex with the guard willingly had they not been guard and inmate? When the guard didn't have the power to deny the inmate things as simple and humane as a shower, visiting with friends, speaking to their family on the phone? Human contact (as guards can justify throwing a prisoner in "the hole" -- solitary confinement)? Very likely not, tho there are some exceptions I'm sure.

Those laws exist to protect the powerless in those situations, and I agree wholeheartedly with them.

[LiberalLoner]

9. Well, you know, if they use the date rape drug

it must not be real "honest" rape because there won't be any bruises or resistance on the part of the passed-out victim.

Don't you know? If women didn't want to get raped they shouldn't have been born women then. Or they could commit suicide, that's always a good option for avoiding rape.

[seabeyond]

14. ture that. no ... no's. no struggle. total acceptance. nt

[firehorse]

10. read up on how predators "groom" their victims, then watch the movie fishtank

[BlueIris]

173. Fishtank is about predators?

Damnit. I haven't seen it yet. Now I'm scared to.

[seabeyond]

11. sexually inexperienced 17 yr old at a party of adults. late 20s, 30s. a couple beers and drunk

asks host to use bathroom. had never talked to him before. never seen him. doesnt know him.

he shows the bathroom, follows in and has sex in under 5 minutes. maybe said no, maybe just in her head. no desire to have sex with a stranger.

is it rape?

a young girl told me this story. in all her inexperience and confusion.

or was the man just getting "lucky".

[Nuclear Unicorn]

17. Maybe I'm too modern, too young, too naive and all sorts of wild ideas have been put into my head

But "consent" means "agreed to" in my book. Using positions of power to take what you want when the other party has not explicitly consented and would say "no" if left to their own devises strikes me as sexual assault.

BTW - NOT aimed at you!

[seabeyond]

21. just putting it out there. especially our very young girls, they are not equipped thru experience,

confidence, or understanding to always have the ability to even say no. sometimes it simply has to be...

exactly what you say.

[lapislzi]

29. Not just girls.

I'm thinking of Sandusky's victims here. As I understand it, none of that sex was consensual, either, whether or not the boys uttered the word "no," or used other means to convey their reluctance to participate, or just endured it.

Also, a clear abuse of a position of power on the part of a trusted authority figure.

A good rule: don't have sex with anyone with whom you are in a power relationship. Also falls under the general heading of "don't shit where you eat."

[seabeyond]

34. very good point, and true... " Not just girls". right on. thank you. nt

[WingDinger]

63. Our backward, stoggie puritan culture must empower women to say yes.

To contrast to NO. As it is, I would think women/girls would be afraid to say yes. Like carrying condoms, or any other way self admitting to sexual intention or thoughts. Now, that is sin, or some bullshit kind of blanket yes.

And men/boys should be taught that to inquire into yes is not dorky, redundant or likely to lead to a LOSER, idiot NO.

[seabeyond]

68. i tell my boys, for the girls and their protection,

equally.... both partners must be enthusiastic about the idea.

[WingDinger]

69. Can you please run for Surgeon General?

[seabeyond]

71. lmao... no, i am too busy making green chili soup.

with tons of freshly roasted chilis.... yum.

[WingDinger]

74. Prolly for the best. last time a woman talked truth, she was tarred and feathered.

Joselyn Elders is sort of a hero of mine.

[seabeyond]

76. true that. nt

[lapislzi]

30. The only luck here was in the host's choice of a naive victim.

I also experienced date rape when I was in my 20s. I lived with the shame for years.

I shouldn't have had so much to drink.
I wasn't thinking straight.
I should have paid more attention when I noticed all the other party guests leaving.
I should have turned down his offer to allow me to "lie down for a little while."
I should have known that my then-husband's best friend, a known "player" who'd expressed more than a little interest in his best friend's wife was not the nice guy he seemed.

Shoulda.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

35. Mere sympathy seems too pale. I hope your post is only an expression of past thougths

and not how you see yourself today. Whatever failings occurred were not yours. The blame belongs to only one person, your attacker. Attacking someone who cannot consent/does not want is not cute, funny, prankish or just a quick bit of fun. Even if just for sex it is an assault on the victim's deepest, most intimate sense of self.

I've never had anything as bad as what you've so graciously shared happen to me, so I won't pretend. I thank-you for allowing us to glimpse at the true nature of just how bad date rape/non-consensual assaults really can be.

Please, don't ever blame yourself. You're too good for that.

[lapislzi]

78. Thank you, dear NU

It took me years to understand that it was, in fact, "rape." It saddens me that even today, in this country, it would be difficult to prosecute it as such.

How many go unreported? How many are living with the "shouldas?"

[seabeyond]

36. wow. and yes. exactly. i wish... wish... people would work harder

to understand and see all the sides... and differences. it is not black and white.

[chrisa]

112. That's absolutely heartbreaking and infuriating at the same time

[MadrasT]

26. The way I look at it...

Any sexual contact that doesn't involve a clear "yes" and 100% willing participation from both parties is sexual assault.

The correct metric is not: "Did (s)he say NO?" The correct metric is: "Did (s)he say YES" and was that "YES" a product of her/his own free will (and absent intimidation or fear of any kind)?"

It doesn't even matter if two people have already had consensual sex 100 times in the past... if one of them does not willingly and actively consent the 101st time, it is sexual assault.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

31. ^ this. Thank-you.

[MineralMan]

32. No means no. Beyond that, I think it's a case-by-case thing.

Uncle Brad has no business having sex with Kelly, from the start. If Kelly doesn't resist or even acquiesces, it's still a sexual assault.

My rule, since I was just a high school kid, is much more strict. If the other person isn't both willing and eager, it doesn't happen. No seductions. No wheedling. No drunken mistakes, because mistakes lead to regrets and misunderstandings. Willing and eager. That's always been my rule, as a guy. If the other person is unsure, hesitant, or even a little tipsy, tomorrow's another day in the relationship. No coercive sex, influenced sex, or wheedled sex for me. That policy has served me well all my life, despite the occasions where nothing happened.

[One_Life_To_Give]

33. Ultimately a Jury decision

Not a lawyer. I would think it comes down to what a reasonable woman would be expected to do/react.

Defense might argue that it was reasonable for Uncle Brad to assume that Kelly wanted him. And such a case could go either way depending on the details and who the jury finds credible. In a criminal case the standard of Beyond a Reasonable doubt will make the case even tougher to prove.

If someone breaks into your residence and hops in bed. Your fairly assured it's going to be viewed non-consensual regardless. File for divorce and claim spousal rape at the same time with no physical evidence. Probably a non-starter for any prosecutor.

Unfortunately there is guilt and then there is what can be proven in court.

In-case it wasn't clear enough above. Yes one can be assaulted without the use of force. Coercion can be subtle. Lack of resistance is not an invitation.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

37. What if there's no jury except in the locker room?

Some local big shot buddy of yours is mouthing off after the game about how a sweet, young intern came into the office and he led her into the backroom and just took it. He brags about how he just zipped-up and walked-away.

Do you join the joking and high-5'ing knowing it will never see a courtroom? He is your friend, after all.

[seabeyond]

39. yes... what if.... nt

[MineralMan]

41. In that situation, he'd get read off and would no longer be a friend.

That situation has never come up for me, but that would be my reaction. The reading off would have reference to his sisters, wife, or daughters, though, whichever were more pertinent to the person.

I have zero tolerance for assholes.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

43. I'm guessing you have a higher caliber of friends.

[MineralMan]

46. Maybe so. I was never a locker-room sort of guy.

I was a band geek...

[seabeyond]

47. my husband, too. i ask him about things i read on this board.....

and he is really concerned that i spend so much time here. he does not see, what i hear on this board.

[One_Life_To_Give]

122. Sorry to hit a button

Trying to point out that there are multiple ways to look at the issue. And not just the calling for summary execution of Uncle xxx. Although he probably deserves it.

There is the personal actions in which the only person I must satisfy is myself. Look my former buddy in the face and say. Thats called Rape, turn and walkout. Try to get Kelly into counseling and keep uncle shit-for-brains as far away as practical from her.

However you asked if it was a crime. Should it be, sure. Is it practical? Does it meet constitutional requirements?
System may suck but it's the best one we have found so far.

[RC]

38. Why do I get the idea here that some think that if the woman has sex

that means she has been raped?
Women are sexual creatures also. There are many ways to say yes or no. It does not have to be vocal. It can be as simple as walking away - or not.

[seabeyond]

40. ah, geeeez..... nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

42. 1) yes, women are sexual creatures

2) no, that's not what this thread is about.

3) that I should ever be accused of being a non-sexual woman

4) we're talking about a predator using a power/position of trust dynamic to coerce victims

5) The "simple as walking away - or not." opens a Pandora's Box. Although it seems some around here would say Pandora really wanted it and probably enjoyed it and she was so uptight she also needed it.

[MineralMan]

44. No, that's not the idea here. That's an idea that some men

use as an excuse. It's a lousy idea. I don't know, but I've never found any sort of "submission" to be a turn on. Giving up on resistance and giving in isn't consent. It never has been.

If you have trouble with that concept, think about your sisters, your daughters, or your wife in the situation and see how you feel about it then. Every woman is someone's sister, wife, or daughter. If you still have trouble with the concept, then I don't know what to say.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

48. Sometime I like to be the demure sex kitten, sometimes he likes "ambush sex"

But there's never a doubt in his mind about whether or not I'm wanting him (or maybe there's just something about him that is just so fuckable).

Whatever it is my man is always a GENTLEman.

[MineralMan]

53. Sure. That's in an established relationship.

I hope that most couples establish a clear way to communicate. I suppose there are some who don't, but most couples, I think know the signals within their own relationship about sex.

The situation described in your OP doesn't seem to have to do with established relationships. The rules there are very different, and require a much different sort of consent.

[LanternWaste]

45. Because we often interpret and/or rationalize a thing...

"Why do I get the idea here that some think that if the woman has sex that means she has been raped..."

Because we often interpret and/or rationalize a thing or a situation in order to better suit our own preconceived world-views.

[petronius]

58. Why don't you tell us why you get that idea - there's nothing in the thread

to suggest it.

Seriously, you should delete this. It's a really disgusting contribution...

[obamanut2012]

80. wtf

[chrisa]

116. You completely missed the point of this thread.

[lapislzi]

194. Disagree.

"No" does not mean "try harder."

I am very much a sexual creature, but I have never, ever said "no" when I meant "yes." If I say "no" and you want to talk about it, fine. I may, or I may not. I may change my mind at some point, but don't count on it.

A couple of times I've said "yes" and thought the better of it, then said "no" before things got out of hand. That was the end of the matter.

My mom, of a different generation, was all about the "hard to get" game. I never understood that. She was horrified by my forthrightness about sexual matters. But I never saw any point in being coy. I think those behaviors and ambiguities lead ultimately to muddy waters, and unintended outcomes.

When I was raped (see post 30), I knew it. I also knew that I could never call it out for what it was, for all the reasons I said in the post.

[seabeyond]

198. behaviors and ambiguities lead ultimately to muddy waters,

this game has got to stop. with women using it and men thinking it is just a woman thing.

[Justice wanted]

49. A victim has the RIGHT to SURVIVE! If that victim needs to lay still and let the attacker do what

they want so they are not killed than they had to do what was needed to survive.


Speaking as a victim. My attacker got angry whenever I fought him. He was more violent and determine to do what he wanted and if he didn't it to a dead body so be it. So I didn't resist. I said the phrases he wanted me to. I played his game until I had my chance to escape.


In your example if Uncle Brad crawl into Kelly's bed she is probably scared that the event is happening AND then she is probably thinking who is going to believe me? This is a person of authority who is going to believe me and IF Uncle Brad has any control over her life she is probably going to do what he wants without resistance.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

52. .

fwiw

[Justice wanted]

56. Thank you. This type of thing brings out strong feelings in me.

[polly7]

55. I fought back hard.

I ended up with my nose smashed, a fractured jaw and ribs. This was someone I knew and trusted, who apparently thought he was God's gift to me that night.
The thought of not fighting him was so disgusting to me that I just couldn't do it ..... but doing so nearly got me killed. I was stupid. And lucky.

[Justice wanted]

59. Instincts are strong. They are a gut reactions. If I had known my attacker I might have fought

a little more but it was a stranger with a gun and a knife. I kicked myself for years saying I shouldn't have let him tie me up at one point but it was either that or be beaten unconscious or worse.


Don't say you where stupid. HE was the stupid one.




You always look back and think if I had done this or that differently. Do it too much and you can drive yourself insane. You are here now and that is the improtant thing.

[polly7]

66. You did amazing. How many people do we hear who didn't survive

when a gun or knife were present. How absolutely terrifying, and I'm so sorry. You're right, we are here, and that's what counts.

[Justice wanted]

73. Exactly-we are here and that's all that counts. Fists can be just as scary and dangerous guns and

knives.


If you ever need to talk or vent or just stop a bad memory. feel free to PM me. my shoulder and ears are open.

[polly7]

107. Thank you so much.

Mine are always available, too.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

60. Too much pain in the world.

So many poeple such as yourself are opening-up and sharing. Words like "sorry" and "thank-you" seem so weak but what you are the rest are sharing is important. I try to be sympathetic for my husband who is a combat vet but how can I? What is so vivid for him is just a distant shadow to me. You want to comfort those you love when they hurt because they're the one you love and admire but sometimes you just feel so powerless.

How do the rest of us make it better?

I hope that doesn't sound trite.

[polly7]

106. Aw, you're kind. I just wanted to share that fighting back is probably

in most cases the very worst thing to do, and no-one in any assault situation should ever be expected to do it. Your questions aren't trite at all, they're very moving .... and thank you for your empathy and concern. My hope .. like yours I'm sure, is that the media ..... especially facebook and social networking sites, start seriously discussing these same questions, because I can't even imagine being a teenager now trying to understand self-worth and limits.

[lapislzi]

195. I'm so sorry.

You nailed it: if someone in a position of power exploits that power and uses it to have sex with you, you, the powerless are at a fatal disadvantage. The powerful holds all the cards.

Whether or not it's a life-or-death situation, the power relationship is the same.

I'm so sorry for your experience. I hope you are healing.

[Justice wanted]

196. Thank you for your words. I have been on the path to healing for 15 years. I am lucky to have a

wonderful husband as well.

[Broderick]

51. No is enough but this thread brought up something interesting and it needs repeating

There is a such thing as an implied no as well. A child may not know to say no for instance, and it is definitely an implied no as well as someone that is too intoxicated to respond, ect. There are plenty of other instances, and I am merely pointing out examples.

[MineralMan]

54. That's a very good point. Those are the society's 'no's.

They're easily understood by anyone who thinks. Don't do stuff to other people you wouldn't allow someone to do to someone you love. Some folks don't get that and never think about it. They're assholes.

[Broderick]

62. Assholes and rapists

and sexual predators. Unfortunately, some try to reason it away. Those "some" are the assholes imo.

[WingDinger]

57. If it is incest, statuatory rape or too out of it to consent, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

If not, then no must be said. Teach women/girls to say it early and often. There is no other way.

Teach boys no, means no. And teach women/girls, dont say no if you might relent soon.

Keep NO pure. Empower women/girls, and prosecute the living shit outta those that dont heed NO.

If there is any kind of coersion present, then no is not necessary, and they also should be prosecuted to hell.

Men/boys should be taught that any kind of coercive construct, might mean prosecution. And to run from it. This means bosses, or any other power advantage. Personally, I dont think bosses, professors or any other like types have any business bedding those they rule in any way.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

61. Only Yes means Yes

[WingDinger]

64. As in reply 17, Women/girls must be empowered to say yes.

To admit yes, to intend yes, without the guilt baggage, bullshit blanket yes{slut} or any other negative connotation to yes.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

67. Not my point but I'll offer the benefit of the doubt.

Judging from the bile on TV girls are empowered to only say yes. What is she DOESN'T want to say Yes? What if the person making demands and opening her clothes never bothers to ask or just assumes or just takes? What if social pressures or power dynamics or whatever tell her to just stay silent?

BTW - not just girls are victims

[WingDinger]

72. Social pressure, power dynamics, are just those things boys should be taught to run from,

as they are likely to run afoul of hte law. As I said, ANY coersive environment should flip red flags in a boys man's mind. And we as a society should start prosecuting simply on that basis.

We need to change the entire sexual dynamic in this country. We need to grow the fuck up.

Oh, and I was sexually assaulted by two girls, and a boy. Pantsed, and shoved out the door when younger. Didnt like it. Said no. Meant no.

[seabeyond]

75. if men think about it, i bet more have been in this situation and yes....

" I was sexually assaulted by two girls, and a boy. Pantsed, and shoved out the door when younger. Didnt like it. Said no. Meant no."

it is just what you say. the same feel with both parties.

interesting point. thank you

[WingDinger]

82. Oh, and was threatened with violence, if I didnt allow a dog to hump me. I chose fighting.

[obamanut2012]

83. A woman has no DUTY to say "no"

Except MAYBE in a "date rape" situation, but even then, pushing hands away, not cooperating, etc. is NO. As someone else said in this thread only yes is yes.

Why not change the onus and say a "yes" is enough?

[WingDinger]

89. As I said earlier, Joselyn Elders was just that person to begin that transition.

Unfortunately, the abstinence only, sexual malformed puritans, railroaded her for saying masturbation is a viable alternative to pushing your prerogatives.

[Bluerthanblue]

65. no.

Yes

Yes, it can be.

Yes.

you may be being told elsewhere that there is no crime, but they are wrong.

[Hatchling]

70. What if a boss implies a woman will be fired?

If he implies that for any other job she looks for he will black ball her and she needs the job to live?

I didn't want to have sex with him, but I didn't say no either.

[Dorian Gray]

79. Absolutely not

Why should they endanger themselves? Risk being harmed, killed, etc.

And in the circumstance you listed, a young child might think that the approval of their older relative is too important to resist.

I don't know what happened, but I think I would be shaking angry, too.

[DutchLiberal]

81. Since you used my exact words from another thread to make this OP, let me clarify...

I was talking about ADULTS.

Not "uncle Brad who crawls in bed with Kelly".

So lay off the drama. Cease the emotional manipulation.

ADULTS.

If an adult man uses no force, no violence, no threats, no intoxication, no coercion whatsoever, and the adult woman does not resist, object, say no, or otherwise give any indication that she doesn't want it to happen...

HOW then is it "assault"?

You know, there ARE some people on DU (and I'm NOT saying you are one of them) who seem to think that ANY sexual act between an older man/man in position of power and a woman is "assault" --or that even EVERY form of sex is a kind of "assault". Yes, we have radicals like those on this site.

Please tell me you're not one of them.

[WingDinger]

84. Yknow, I would be for a form that required a signature by the women, if it is a power dynamic situat

situation. If you are a boss, or professor, of any other etc, if you dont have a signed form, you are screwed. And those that are too afraid to ask for the form signed, shouldnt be trying in the first place.

[lumberjack_jeff]

181. But shouldn't it be notarized?

Maybe she isn't qualified to make the decision she just made.

[WingDinger]

183. I was told by my landlady, that if I didnt impregnate her, I should move.

When I said no, she said move, Now, Today. I said no. She then told me, she was calling her daughter, and her heroin addict boyfriend and his friends were coming to beat my ass. I said, bring it on. I will slay his ass, then work on her. If I failed, she would be up for murder two, as she conspired the whole thing. I waited in my room, with a wrist rocket, and a bayonet.

She thought better of the whole thing, and said, I had as long as I needed to find a place to live. Do you think Women should be required to protect themselves physically? Or threaten to protect themselves, up to and including killing?

[obamanut2012]

85. How is it not assualt if she didn't say "yes"

Or otherwise indicate she wanted sex?

Why does the woman have the responsibility to say "NO! No sex!" either but words or actions? Why isn't it the man's responsibility to hear a "yes"?

Why is it the woman's responsibility, her duty, her whatever to tell some guy no?

Ugh. I quit posting in that other thread because of statements like this:

"If an adult man uses no force, no violence, no threats, no intoxication, no coercion whatsoever, and the adult woman does not resist, object, say no, or otherwise give any indication that she doesn't want it to happen...

HOW then is it "assault"?"

[DutchLiberal]

91. Whenever I get intimate with a woman, her actions indicate clearly whether or not she wants it.

I have never had sex with a woman where, at any point, she turned to me and said formally: "yes, you may have sex with me". I don't know how you do it, but I guess if you're with a man, you'll let him know whether or not he's on the right path, don't you? Or are you saying that unless a woman formally says "yes, you may have sex with me", she hasn't really consented? Even if she did do everything else (like voluntarily undressing, kissing him, leading him onto the bed, putting a condom on the man, etc.)?

[seabeyond]

93. "yes, you may have sex with me".. you may have sex with me? really? lol. geez. how about, ya..

lets get it on. i wanna jump you, lets fool around.... or any number of things.

but "yes, you may have sex with me" sounds almost like she is NOT a participant and it is ALL about the man. way to go, even with this, to make the woman nonsexual.

but wtf.... anyway huh?

since SOME people on du would think that would be an assault.

[DutchLiberal]

97. Actually, that was an exaggeration of what obamanut was saying, so you're making fun of her now.

She suggested that a woman should give a formal "yes", or otherwise it would be assault. By mocking that idea, you side with me, not with her.

I would have said things like "I wanna jump you", but I'm sure you would think it would be denigrating to women, then...

... since you always have something to complain about. A man discusses sex with you, they're screwed (no pun intended) no matter WHAT they say.

[seabeyond]

99. wrong again. hubby and i all the time are "yessing" each other back and forth. never

have we given up ownership of our sexuality using the word YES. you give away the ownership, not obamanaut.

yes, i want sex
yes, i wanna fool around
yes, i want to fuck

or your way

yes, YOU can fuck ME

[One_Life_To_Give]

166. Guess I should be behind bars

The better half and I are not that verbal.

All communication is not verbal. One needs to look at the complete picture. Even if she says yes, her body language might dictate otherwise. OTOH if she is taking my pants off me and playing with it?

Our dating and mating rituals are imperfect. Yet most of us can distinguish the difference between real desire and coerced behavior. Just as a crisis counselor can probably detect the difference between an actual assault case from a fraud. Not in the handfull of facts available in the instant. But over the total course of events leading up to and subsequent to the event.

[seabeyond]

170. except when i was talking about yes... it was not really about this.

it was the manner in which the poster sees a woman saying yes, i was addressing. what you do with your wife, is your concern, as it is with hubby and i. i did not go into detail of all manner of my hubbys and my sex life.

i was making a point.

[seabeyond]

87. "there ARE some people on DU". ONE. show me ONE person. ONE link. and you prove your point

i have been here for years and have not seen ONE. not ONE. ever. so, making the claim, show me ONE person that feels all sex is an assault.

ONE.

[WingDinger]

90. There should be a strawman callout of DUers report rule.

Those that construct such, maybe should get juried.

[DutchLiberal]

92. I don't remember all usernames, but it has been suggested.

Funny how you never go ballistic whenever all men get accused of being "potential rapists", something I have read in a disgusting thread yesterday. Or when all kinds of words are being put in a male member's mouth whenever the topic of sex comes up. Then, not a word of objection from you.

[seabeyond]

94. ONE... you are making a damn stupid claim as SOME on du. ONE. or it didnt happen

and i call bullshit.

i already know the answer.

fix your post, own it.... or

just a stupid accusation.

[seabeyond]

96. now you edit your post to run run run, shift, divert. ONE person that has claimed ALL sex

is an assault.

[DutchLiberal]

98. I often edit posts for further clarification. It's not a crime. Take a chill pill.

Like I said: I don't remember most usernames. Only of very vocal and ... er... "remarkable" posters like you, but otherwise, no. Do you?

Some of your posts came very close to suggesting that, by the way.

[seabeyond]

101. ONE of my post that comes even kinda close to saying ALL sex is an assault. ONE

ever.... in the history of my posting.

or

it didnt happen.

ONE

so the reality is, you made something up and expect people to buy such a bullshit claim with no back up?

[DutchLiberal]

109. Plenty!

But no, I'm not saving posts for future reference and no, I don't go searching through endless old threads or members' posting history to "prove" anything. Nobody ever does that (not just me) and you know that. So it's a bit childish of you to imply I'm wrong for not doing so.

[seabeyond]

111. lmFao. so every time i have had sex or will have sex, i think i am being raped. and you know this

and demand it is the truth, though you have NOTHING to back it up. and you say i am being childish.

what a fuckin hoot.

you FAIL, miserably.

[DutchLiberal]

118. Again, not what I said. This is what I meant when I was talking about putting words in mens' mouths.

That's all you ever do on DU.

A male member makes a point, you run with it, turn it into a gross and ridiculous exaggeration and then attack the male member on the absurd claim you made up yourself.

Discussing you is like fighting windmills.

I'm done with you.

[seabeyond]

121. "EVERY form of sex is a kind of "assault""... where am i putting words in "mens mouth"

"You know, there ARE some people on DU (and I'm NOT saying you are one of them) who seem to think that ANY sexual act between an older man/man in position of power and a woman is "assault" --or that even EVERY form of sex is a kind of "assault". Yes, we have radicals like those on this site. "

[Lunacee2012]

135. I was thinking that too.

I also have yet to see one post that makes that claim.

[seabeyond]

138. the "feminist" (now) are too clever to say it, the poster just know that is really what they are

saying....

that is where we are at, at this point. lol

[Lunacee2012]

159. Well at least now we're clever

and not "bitchy".

[seabeyond]

165. TOO clever, not just any old clever. lol. true that. nt

[chrisa]

120. Counter points

If an adult man uses no force, no violence, no threats, no intoxication, no coercion whatsoever, and the adult woman does not resist, object, say no, or otherwise give any indication that she doesn't want it to happen...

HOW then is it "assault"?

It is assault if she did not want it to happen, even if she gave no indicator that she didn't want it to happen.

You know, there ARE some people on DU (and I'm NOT saying you are one of them) who seem to think that ANY sexual act between an older man/man in position of power and a woman is "assault" --or that even EVERY form of sex is a kind of "assault". Yes, we have radicals like those on this site.

No we don't, unless if you have an example of that.

[EFerrari]

127. Do you have trouble understanding women in general or just assault victims and sneaky feminists?

[DutchLiberal]

130. No need to steep to vile character assassinations. Give me an argument and I'll discuss.

So far, I've seen none from you.

[EFerrari]

131. I asked you a question. And have already given you an answer to yours.

[DutchLiberal]

143. No, you haven't. I have yet to see one argument from you. If name-calling is all you got..

.. I don't wish to talk to you anymore.

However, if you have an argument running counter to mine, I'll be glad to read it and react to it.

[EFerrari]

167. Excuse me, the integrity of women's bodies is not debatable.

Our default is not "do me unless I say no". You must be thinking of something else, something inanimate like vending machines or parking meters.

[seabeyond]

137. so none of the FEMINIST (now) have said, but you KNOW what they are really saying..... fuck. nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

139. And apparently I'm one of those sex-hating all-sex-is-assault subliminal message feminists.

Me -- ME?!?!

Obviously he's new here and doesn't know me very well.

[seabeyond]

146. worse... post 141. does he do this with all women, and what does that do for them in having a say

about sex or not.

he isnt new. been around a loooooonnnng time. or feels that way, anyway.

[DutchLiberal]

147. Another lie from you. I specifically stated you were *not* one of them.

But this post of yours DOES strenghten me in a thing I said earlier in this thread; that you WANT to see women as victims, because now, without any provocation from my side whatsoever, you're already playing the victim.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

158. Maybe I missed that post. If so, then fair is fair.

But while you're running around in MY thread complaining about sublimated misandric messaging by sex-hating, penis-fearing "feminazis" because you're so put-upon over an open disagreement about power-abuse sexual assault please be -- ahem -- man enough -- to not cry too loudly over people claiming victim status.

[seabeyond]

141. "speak in code language"" imply and suggest""read between the lines" if this is how you decipher if

how you think of women, then i have to wonder about your ability to decode and read between the lines, with a date.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

152. "Feminazis"?!?!

Listen to Rush Limbaugh much?

[DutchLiberal]

161. Are you denying there are misandrist extremist feminists who do nothing but bash men?

I'm not saying all feminists are like that. Far from that.

But, with your filthy implications time after time (now this Limbaugh assumption/reference), don't seem very interested in an honest discussion of ideas.

[seabeyond]

153. why would i trust your ability to "decode" with any woman when you clearly show your inability on

this thread.

not to mention a blatant dishonestly in your accusations.

[Broderick]

156. what is a feminazi?

[DutchLiberal]

162. A woman who thinks feminism is about bashing men every opportunity they get.

It's a woman who tarnishes the reputation of actual feminists, whose causes I support, to spout misandrist bullshit all the time.

[chrisa]

164. "Feminazi?"

That's a right-wing phrase used as character assassination against feminists. It's often used by the blowhards Limbaugh and O'Reilly.

[Little Star]

199. +1

[Nuclear Unicorn]

149. By Jove! I think you've diagnosed the issue exactly.

Everything is a code, a hint, a suggestion. He doesn't have non-consenting sex -- she cryptically said she wanted it by not saying she didn't want it -- just like we cryptically call all sex (with him?) assault.

Tricky, tricky girls. Devious things we are.

[seabeyond]

154. Tricky, tricky girls. Devious things we are.

scary date.

[LanternWaste]

145. And if a man doesn't know, I imagine the most prudent thing to do

"If she gives no indicator that she doesn't want it, a man can't know..."

And if a man doesn't know, I imagine the most prudent thing to do would be to discontinue any intimacy or attempts at intimacy until we do know-- regardless of whether it may or may not be considered assault. Sometimes, we can allow our common sense to take a priority over any sexual urges we may have...


"they speak in code language and only imply and suggest things and you have to read between the lines...."
Regardless, I imagine we often conflate what we want the Unsubstantiated Others to say with what they are indeed saying, and attribute that to people being "way too clever" in both discussions, and in our more intimate moments, as that too would prevent and dismiss any unpleasant situations from happening.

[DutchLiberal]

155. For clarification, picture this then:

I'm at home alone with a girl. She's a few years younger than me and she's inexperienced. I start to kiss her and touch her. She's taken a bit by surprise by this (given the lack of experience), but she goes on to unbutton her shirt and take off her clothes (as also said in the OP). I'm leading her to the bedroom, she follows me into bed. Then we have sex. She's not taking the lead because of her insecurity of it being 'the first time'. Maybe (emphasis on maybe) later (days later, weeks later, who knows), she starts to regret.

Have I assaulted her?

According to the OP, I have. I should go to jail. As should a lot of men who had sex with women who were inexperienced/regretted it later.

[WingDinger]

163. Dude, you are the first alert I have sent. You seem to have a huge chip on your patriarchal shoulder

You are abusing good people, and we have started to lose good people, by that abuse. There is better language to use, if you really intended conversation. I have a good sense of humor, but there is nothing funny about your contributions. I hate to alert, but you force me.

Feminazi is a term of service abuse. Seldom do I think someone should be banned. But I hope you are.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

168. That is a mischaracterization of the originating disagreement.

[LanternWaste]

175. I don't pretend to know it assault, but it is bad judgement.

I don't pretend to know it assault, but it is most certainly bad judgement.

And as I don't pretend to know, I would prevent it from happening were it me in that scenario. Maybe you see it as a Golden Opportunity-- which may be part and parcel of the larger problem. A sexual urge does not deny one common sense and good judgement...

[EFerrari]

177. First, why are you having sex with a girl and second, your mind reading will not

help you in court. If you don't have consent, you don't have consent, no matter what the reason is that you imagine.

[alcibiades_mystery]

186. Perhaps the creepiest story ever posted on DU

Uh, muh, guh...

[EFerrari]

124. If a man walks around with the impression that women want to have sex with him, by default,

unless they specifically say no, he is wrong and needs to correct that impression immediately.

[LeftyMom]

157. I was an adult when I was raped.

I was in bed with pneumonia. I was feverish, really out of it. I'm not sure I said no out loud, or that I could have been heard and understood if I did. I certainly didn't say yes, and that's what matters. I was USED, without my consent, and the fact that I didn't kick and scream (because I was barely conscious and weak as a newborn kitten) doesn't matter.

[FreeJoe]

95. I went to a workshop...

...on this topic back in college. It was an interesting discussion. We had quite a range of opinions. Some guys felt that as long as she didn't say "no", that was effectively consent. They argued that lots of girls wanted to engage in sex but were raised so prudishly that they couldn't admit it out loud. Stopping to ask was mood killer for everyone.

On the other extreme, I remember a young lady answer affirmatively to the question of whether it was rape if the woman reluctantly consented to a "suitor" after lots of verbal persuasion but then regretted it. In her view, consenting after being emotionally pressured, even if there was no real or implied physical threat, wasn't really consenting. Other women their castigated her for damaging the whole notion of consent.

My main takeaway was that the subject was more complex than I had imagined and that people had a much wider range of views that I expected. I was never a fan of sex without a strong emotional involvement first, so it didn't really affect my personal relationships. It did give me a sense for how difficult and confusing some situations could be. It also made it clear that a lot of guys were really, really slimey. To this day, I struggle with understanding why someone would want to have sex with someone that didn't want to have sex with them. The notion just seems gross.

[DevonRex]

114. Sometimes that'll get a person killed.

Each victim has to be able to make the decision that will keep her/him alive. Some victims don't even know what's about to happen to them.

[libodem]

136. A very close friend of mine in college

Talked her way out of a rape. It was a nighttime, home invasion by a stranger. He got into her house and laid the barrel of a gun against her throat. It was that close.

She was one of the nicest, sweetest, friends I ever had. If any one could have done it it would have been, all 100lbs of, her.

[DevonRex]

142. OMG.

She did everything right under the most frightening circumstances. She lived.

[libodem]

169. I know

She could have been raped, injured or killed. She talked the guy out of it by some miracle.

[LanternWaste]

129. Holding a position of authority in the office where I work...

Holding a position of authority in the office where I work, I made a pledge to myself some years back that I would not get involved with anyone I worked with-- regardless of whether they work in my department or in a sales office halfway across the country.

Regardless of how innocent a thing may be, regardless of how pure the intentions are, there would always be a nagging doubt in the back of my mind as to whether the young lady would allow things to happen due in part, to my position of authority. And in my world, even a hint of doubt results in nothing happening between her and I, as I've too often seen doubts blossom into concerns and actual issues.

Worst case scenario under this guideline I've established for myself is that I merely miss an opportunity or two to become intimate with a co-worker-- and that's simply not a big deal to me.


Also, as I never get intimate with anyone unless I know them very well, have been around them for some time, and have grown to trust them, I've had zero doubts... and what's more, I've had zero issues in regards to allegations. Although I realize that for many people, it's a very casual encounter done every time the opportunity presents itself, I'd hazard that causes more problems than benefits in the long run.

[undeterred]

133. Imagine if the current President did the same thing.

It would be sexual assault.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

144. Any of the other 42 as well. Despite oppression such as a lack of suffrage

I cannot imagine men like Washington, Madison, Jefferson, Lincoln et al having such a thing known about them and not being the subject of scorn if not open outrage.

[dawg]

160. Was Sally Hemmings really in a position to consent?

I think there is a better case against Jefferson than there is against Kennedy.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

171. My dawg!

IIRC there is some debate as to whether Ms. Hemmings children were from the president or from his brother. I've also read some things about Pres. Jefferson's view of slavery, on DU even, that may be exculpatory, commendable even. That's not meant as a defense of Jefferson. I'm not read enough on his life to know him in detail and truth be told RWers like him so much I'm reflexively leery.

[Withywindle]

172. Jefferson is a bad example in this case.

He had a longterm sexual relationship with one of his slaves, and children by her - this was rumored and talked about for 200 years before DNA testing of his descendants proved it. Seems like there was genuine affection between them and he treated her well by the standards of the day, but still. Master. Slave.

[Lunacee2012]

150. Have to agree with you there.

The repubs would scream about it 'til their vocal cords burst. And I truly believe it would be just because he's a black man.

[Rex]

178. That doesn't make any sense.

How are the a victim if they show no signs of being a victim? You sound like you want your cake and to eat it as well. A victim is someone that is hurt by another person. Hurt. Examine that word and get back to me.

[seabeyond]

179. post 11, 30, 70, and 157 may give you some idea of what is being discussed

there may be all kinds of ooopses in these situations that you can find, but that is the whole discussion of consent and nonconsent.

[LanternWaste]

180. I once thought there were no dumb questions. I've re-evaluated that....

"How are the a victim if they show no signs of being a victim...?"


I once thought there were no dumb questions. I've re-evaluated that, and was reduced to a different conclusion...

Therefore victims are only victims if and only if they show signs of being victimized?

And you do realize that many signs of victimization ("hurt" being one of many signs) may manifest themselves quite a bit later than the actual experience itself, yes? And quite often, the "hurt" may not be obvious to the victim, or those close to the victim, or even a therapist?

[tavalon]

192. This reminds me of the bombshell my therapist layed on me many years ago

I had always told everyone that my childhood was like Vietnam with the verbal, emotional and physical assault but at least I wasn't sexually assauted, like my stepsister who was having intercourse with my father on a regular basis. When my therapist asked if any such thing had happened to me, I said, "well, he stuck his tongue in my mouth and tried to push me on his bed but he was drunk so it was easy to get away and I ran away soon after". See, no sexual assault. It kind of rocked my world and not in a good way when she said, "that was sexual assault".

In other words, this victim didn't realize until she was much, much older that she was also sexually assaulted.

[seabeyond]

193. +1. hear ya. so many subtles that we dont even recognize. nt

[tavalon]

197. It WAS the reason I decided to fire that "family" fairly soon thereafter

I knew what my step-sister was going through and had no desire to be victim number two. But even so, on some level, I didn't think a french kiss from my biological father constituted sexual assault ( though I connected it even then with the abuse my step sister was enduring - weird how our minds work). I was wrong.

[lumberjack_jeff]

182. Consent is a simple topic.

When my friend watches me pour a cup of coffee from his percolator and doesn't express any misgivings, objections or complaints, it is reasonable to conclude that he's giving implied consent, notwithstanding the power differential of the fact that he owes me money.

A jury would never use the lack of a clear "yes you may have 8 ounces of my coffee" to conclude that I'm guilty of theft.

"You should have known without my saying so that I had a headache last night." Doesn't meet my definition of rape.

[EFerrari]

187. "I know because you didn't say anything" meets no definition of consent.

[renie408]

185. If its 'Uncle' Brad, then HELLS YEAH, he is guilty of a crime.

If its just some moderately insensitive guy who can't catch on that his partner isn't participating...eh, I am not sure about that. I think that coercion is in the status, as you imply in the first line of your OP.

[LadyHawkAZ]

188. Some context would be nice here.

If they feel it is safe to do so? Yes, they have an obligation to say no. Your partner is not a mind reader. If (for example) you're making out and want to stop, it's on you to say so. It's then their responsibility to stop.

In any other circumstances (if there is a threat, if the victim is a minor, if they are asleep or unconscious etc) NO! That is abuse and the No is a given.

If Uncle Brad climbs in bed with Kelly, that is abuse, and does not stand up to your argument (didn't use force, violence, threaten or abuse the victim). What exactly is this about?

[tavalon]

191. There are so many forms of rape and the person who was raped usually knows they were raped

What you described is also called incest, but it's rape. Anytime, for whatever reason one person feels afraid to say no, it's rape. If both or more partners are not all able to clearheadedly consent to sexual whatever, it's rape. Resistance is definitely a sign of rape, but non-resistance isn't ncessaryily a sign of non-rape, as evidenced by Uncle Brad. He raped her and he used his likely power over her as a relative.