My Advice To The Young Is "Boycott Military Service". Refuse To Serve. Here Is Why.

[TheMastersNemesis]

Despite the flag waving and phony "thank you" the public does not give a shit about you when you are back. Nothing has really changed since I got back from Vietnam in 1968. We got screwed back then and new vets continue to get screwed.

Since I got back from Vietnam the GOP and conservatives have been instrumental in getting rid of all the vets assistance centers called the National Employment Service run by DOL. We had local offices run by the states and staffed by state employees. We had veteran Job Service units staffed by up to three veterans. We had disabled veterans employed as job counselors and job developers. We had veterans preference in government hiring. We had 100% disabled veterans working at jobs that allowed them to make a living and draw some of the disability.

We had veteran outreach officers in every county in the country who worked with all veterans helping them with their VA benefits. And they acted as advocates for veterans and their issues.

Well Reagan started to process of destroying our national Employment Service and turned it all over to the local counties at the tiem run by political hans. The new county run system is a disaster.

VIRTUALLY ALL VETERANS SERVICES ARE GONE. AND THE VA HUGLEY UNDERSTAFFED AND VETERANS EMPLOYMENT SERVICE IS GONE GONE GONE THANKS TO THE GOP.

The GOP wants to privatize the VA system and turn it over to private insurance if they get power. Of course they will lie about that idea.

The backlog of disability claims was set up by the Bushies and Obama walked into an underfunded situation that had festered for 30 years. Obama can only do so much because sequestration effects the VA too.

On top of that the GOP has been responsible for the laying off of hundreds of thousands of veterans who used to work in federal, state, and local government. And the private sector won't hire veterans. THEY GIVE YOU THAT PRO VET BULLSHIT BUT THEY DON'T GIVE A SHIT.

Coming home from war to a God damned job at WALFART OR McDonalds or the like is a national disgrace. Fuck that!. I am a radical GOP hater. I would rather turn a GOP legislative bastard over to the terrorists. Hell they are a bunch of terrorists.

If you are young stay out of the military, save your body and saint. All you are is cannon fodder for the damned billionaires and big business who would rather give your job to someone over seas.

Anyone who enlists in the service now is a SUCKER. And anyone who votes for damned Republican is a real SUCKER.

I am sorry for using such strong language, but I follow what is going on with vets. It is a complete disaster out there economically for our military vets. And the GOP wants to destroy the country to get power.

[djean111]

1. My grandson is 18 and we have been having this talk ever since his class started being visited by

recruiters.
He has also had to take the ASVAB a couple of times, ostensibly as an aid to career choices, but the military supplied the tests, and scored them.

[TheMastersNemesis]

4. What Your Grandson Needs To Know And NOT Enlist. He Needs To Convince His Peers Not To Enlish

The new military is not what the old military was. For one it is very contracted and many jobs do not exist. And employers do not really care about military experience unless it is in electronics most likely.

The Air Force and the Navy are the only places where you might get decent training that transfers over to civilians jobs. In the Army and Marines most jobs now are ONLY combat arms. Most military occupational specialities are done by corporate contractors.

Plus recruiters are under intimidation and threat of demotion if they do not make their goals. And they can promise anything but the contract with a recruits DOES NOT HAVE TO BE COMPLIED WITH. Once you enlist THEY OWN YOU for your term of enlistment.

Being a vet military service is usually harsh and lonely. And unless you are an officer you cannot afford a family. And when it comes to pensions, the GOP want so eliminate all pensions and turn them into 401k's. And when you are out of the military you will get no substantial help. And employer will discriminate against you as a vet.

The younger generation needs to refuse to serve because all they want is a body.

[djean111]

9. Thanks for all of this very useful information!

He was not pursued by recruiters after they found out he is partially deaf in both ears, but at first he was interested in the "free college" thing.
I was pretty pissed off about the ASVAB; there was no previous notice, they just handed out the tests.
He graduates in a week or two. I am not sure why recruiters even bothered with his school - it is a small school that specializes in kids with ADHD. I guess they thought it was worth a try.
This sort of thing is very good for explaining how his vote can affect him personally, and the linkage between the government and the military, and what is happening in the country and how we affect other countries.

[TheMastersNemesis]

11. I Was A Company Clerk In The US Army 1st Cav Division

So I was well versed in operations by the time I left. And while at DOL I worked as a vet rep briefly. Even when we had a lot of vets services, it was hard for vets to get jobs. The government employed a good many vets who came back. The GOP has pretty much cut off the ability of government to hire vets. All the downsizing has meant a lot of older vets are unemployed also.

Now is inadequate as vets services were back then they are non existent now. Based on my exp at Fort Carson, if you have a family and you are not at least an E-7 you cannot afford to have one. Now when it comes to the Navy if you are on a ship in ship's company you can be at sea for months. And you can end up in some pretty dicey places if you are in the Air Force as well.

Military service means long periods of being without your family. And what most people do not know is that families in the military have as many social problems as the worst black ghettos. The Fort Carson Army quarters on base were as bad as being in Chicago with drugs, alcoholism. I had a Captain tell me that if the Army base housing burned down it would solve all his social work problems IT WAS SO BAD.

Basic training in the military is brutal. It is sadistic and meant to break you psychologically so that you can be remade. I spent almost 6 months in basic and Vietnam combat training in 1967. It was six months of terror. And it is worse today as far as I am concerned. What you grandson needs to know is that basic training is about making you WANT AND DESIRE TO KILL. It is about making you sadistic deep in your soul.

It has nothing to do with serving your country. Today serving is about serving to protect billionaires.

[ReRe]

30. Suggestion

If you have a printer, print off this whole thread and give it to him. Also, there is a book I highly recommend: The Invisible Wounds of War: Coming Home from Iraq and Afghanistan by Marguerite Guzman Bouvard, pub 2012. Good luck.

[liberalmike27]

67. Agree

With everything the original post said. I feel especially sorry for military families that get all of the generational propaganda shoved down their throats, as they never have a chance.

You're going somewhere, to fight for corporations, probably about oil, or pipelines, perhaps another mineral, or just generally pumping up the DOD spending, making a mint for the Bush's and Cheney's of the world.

You're going to at the minimum, be mentally damaged, maybe lose a chunk of your body.

When you get back they are going to forget about you, they're going to claim you didn't have whatever (affects of Agent Orange and defolients in Vietnam, or in Iraq radioactive shells and the particulates, or the oil well burning in GWI. They say "It isn't a thing, you're just imagining it."

You see, you're spent, you've been used once you return, you're done, they don't need you anymore. And that makes, as you said, the rhetoric total, and complete BS.

Don't join. Stop the wars, by not joining, and if you're in, don't go back again.

[davidpdx]

102. It does seem to me like parents (or guardians) should have a say whether their child

can take the test. The test is not academically required for school and could be categorized as an "extracurricular activity" in which parental permission is needed.

[Triana]

5. My brother was a recruiter.

He hated it. Mostly because they had to LIE to these kids to get them to enlist. They had quotas.

When it comes to enlisting: JUST. SAY. NO.

[davidpdx]

103. I can see why he got out

It's almost like being a used car salesman. You would definitely have to have people skills and be persuasive to do that kind of a job.

[Triana]

107. Exactly. That's what he used to say re: used car salesman

He got out as soon as he could. Hated it.

[TheDebbieDee]

25. With drone technology being the latest evolution in modern warfare......

I think the armed forces will be shying away from recruiting boots-on-the-ground types and will focus more on recruiting those tech- savvy recruits that can pilot drones.......

After all, how many US soldiers are killed or maimed whn a drone is shot-down?

In other words, the US military will start doing a boycott of their own.

[tblue]

74. Tell him he can't just go out on a date

or on vacation, or wear his favorite clothes whenever he wants if he's in the military. He can't just go home whenever he wants, can't get up or go to bed whenever he wants, can't go see his friends on the spur of the moment. Aside from being owned, used, and abused, regardless of the dangers and the stop-loss policies of our military, there are umpteen reasons to choose another path.

[gopiscrap]

2. I agree!!

[LeftofObama]

3. I wish I could rec this post more than once!

You said it a lot more eloquently than I ever could!

[newfie11]

6. That goes for me too

[MrScorpio]

7. Excellent post

Another vet here in agreement.

[Dustlawyer]

8. K&R!

[russspeakeasy]

10. We got back the same year and share the same opinion.

[xtraxritical]

12. What was true in 1966 is still true, NO MILITARY!

[Nay]

13. Mr. Nay, a Vietnam vet, concurs. Stay the hell out of the military. nt

[WooWooWoo]

14. well, that's the glass-half-empty viewpoint of military service

Might I propose the glass-half-full view:

Guaranteed allowances for pay, food, clothing and shelter.

Access to free healthcare for you and your spouse/dependents.

Retirement after 20 years.

Disability payments that can go over $3000 a month.

College education paid for - plus housing money (up to $3250/month).



I did it for three years. I probably got a lot more out of it than I put into it. Overall I benefitted from my time in, and I haven't even received VA disability yet.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

20. "Access to free healthcare". Where did you serve? If you were at Camp Lejeune, the Marine Corps

largest base on the East coast from 1953 onward, and if you ever drank the water or coffee made from the contaminated water, you could be one of those who will need more than the "free" healthcare that you received in the service.

When did the top brass first learn that the water was contaminated?

From at least 1953 through 1985, Marines and their families at Lejeune's main family housing areas of Tarawa Terrace and Hadnot Point drank and bathed in water contaminated with toxins at concentrations up to 3400 times levels permitted by safety standards. ... The contamination appears to have affected the water from two of the eight water treatment plants on the base. The main chemicals involved were volatile organic compounds (VOCs) such as perchloroethylene (PCE), a dry cleaning solvent, and trichloroethylene (TCE), a degreaser; however, more than 70 chemicals have been identified as contaminants at Lejeune. The base's wells were shut off in the mid-1980s, after which the water met federal standards, then they were placed back online in violation of the law. The Marine Corps at Camp Lejeune is now preparing to supply water to Onslow County, NC. There is a long history of lost documents, poor management, and deceptive lab testings and results. The National Resource Council of the National Academies released a report based upon a literature review of PCE and TCE in July 2009. The report failed to assess other contaminants, such as benzene and vinyl chloride, and concluded that the water at the base was tainted between 1950 and 1985, but that the contamination could not be linked to any health problems. However, an October 2010 letter from the Director of the government agency tasked to study health effects at Superfund sites, such as Camp Lejeune, illustrated the limitations of the 2009 literature review and advised that there "was undoubtedly a hazard associated with drinking the contaminated water at Camp Lejeune."

In 1980 the base began testing the water for trihalomethanes in response to new regulations from the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). That same year, a laboratory from the U.S. Army Environmental Hygiene Agency began finding halogenated hydrocarbons in the water. In March 1981 one of the lab's reports, which was delivered to U.S. Marine officials, stated, "Water is highly contaminated with other chlorinated hydrocarbons (solvents)!"

Possible sources of the contamination include solvents from a nearby, off-base dry cleaning company, from on-base units using chemicals to clean military equipment, and leaks from underground fuel storage tanks. In 1982, a private company, Grainger Laboratories, contracted by the USMC to examine the problem provided the base commander with a report showing that the wells supplying water for the base were contaminated with trichloroethylene and tetrachloroethylene. The contractor delivered repeated warnings to base officials, including base chemist Elizabeth Betz, that the water was contaminated. A representative from Grainger, Mike Hargett, stated that he went with Betz in July 1982 to inform an unnamed Marine lieutenant colonel who was deputy director of base utilities about the problems with the water. According to Hargett, the Marine was unwilling to discuss Hargett's concerns. In August 1982, a Grainger chemist, Bruce Babson, sent a letter to the base commander, Marine Major General D.J. Fulham, warning him that the base wells appeared to be poisoned. The water from the contaminated wells, however, continued in use at the base.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Lejeune_water_contamination

Those in positions of authority who knew about this and did nothing betrayed all of the Marines and their families under them.

[Maraya1969]

92. I have a friend who was there. She is about 55. She has rheumatoid arthritis, bells palsy,

fibromyalgia, mental problems and many more problems that I cannot remember right now. She had a friend that was there whose skull developed a soft spot.

I sign petitions for her for bills that come up to compensate the veterans, (the town residents have gotten a lot of money but the veterans have gotten nothing) but each bills says that it has little or no chance of getting through congress.

And if you want a recruiter to leave you along just tell them you have asthma. I went to see one when I was graduating from college and he said that was a deal breaker.

[Hissyspit]

49. "Thousands of veterans from the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq now suffer permanent brain injuries"

Last edited Sat May 4, 2013, 08:36 PM - Edit history (1)

@CBSNews: Sunday on @60Minutes: Thousands of veterans from the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq now suffer permanent brain injuries http://t.co/8uH26YlSYA

[alarimer]

59. Those housing allowances drive up rental costs for everybody else.

Especially in places with limited rental options.

For instance the Coast Guard Base here in Elizabeth City has acres of empty houses. I've no idea why they are vacant. Maybe they are unsafe and it's too expensive to rehab. But the housing allowance is something like $1300 a month. Which means a ONE-BEDROOM apartment is $900. Out of the reach of someone like mean, who makes 2000 a month, after taxes. So I live in a shitty neighborhood in an older apartment complex because it's all I can afford. Everything else decent enough is out of reach.

So screw the housing allowance. Or at least make it market rate, depending on where they live.

[TheMastersNemesis]

15. Much Much Much Worse For Vets Now - No Services, No Jobs, And GOP Obstruction

Because of the multiple tours more vets have more server PTSD and social adjustment problems. And we have the least services for any vets in history save Korean war vets who were forgotten altogether.

I personally thought that I could not ever see if worse than it was for Vietnam vets. It is so abominable today that it is beyond disgrace.

What is worse if that sequestration is making vets care worse. And what is really bad is that the chained CPI will cuts care for vets who will never never never be able to work for the rest of their lives. For maybe 50 years. AND THE CHAINED CPI WAS ACTUALLY A GOP IDEA!

[santamargarita]

16. They shit on you and then throw you away!!!

[emanymton]

17. Do Not Agree. Turn One's Back On The Military/Police/Public Service ...

.

One, then, has a military/police/public service force that does not reflect one's belief and values. USA is of the people, by the people, and for the people. This must stand also for military/police/public service forces. A disconnect military/police/public service has the potential to become a threat to the society and people within it.

Ema Nymton
~ @ : o ?
.

[Hissyspit]

48. "Thousands of veterans from the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq now suffer permanent brain injuries"

@CBSNews: Sunday on @60Minutes: Thousands of veterans from the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq now suffer permanent brain injuries http://t.co/8uH26YlSYA

[ancianita]

87. Don't turn this into some other OP. The OP addresses military only, not police or public service.

Stay focused.

[CarrieLynne]

18. my fiancee is in reserves....trying to get him out before something crazy happens

[tom_kelly]

19. More than that...

As a vet who served during peace-time (during Reagan years) and have benefited from some VA services. However, what a different time this is for young kids considering military service. I would strongly urge against it for anyone with even one other option available. As one stated above, you'll be working for and protecting the billionaires. Didn't Dickie Cheney prep this nation by saying that this "War on Terror" would last decades and decades?

Question: When and if the ranks are thinned, will our gov't get away with utilizing the Blackwater (or whatever they're called now) in a much larger scale outside, as well as inside our country? I say our gov't because it seems more and more dems are behaving like repubs.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

21. The genius behind the "War on Terror" is that no one can ever surrender and stop the

money machine.

[ancianita]

88. "Our govt" doesn't get away with using Blackwater. Monsanto has hired Blackwater. The OTHER

mercenary groups it uses are locals of other countries. JSOP's units run those shows.

[Aristus]

22. I was a tank crewman in the Gulf in 1991. And I agree with you 100%.

I thought we were doing a noble thing, kicking Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait. Deep down, I knew the only reason we were there was to protect the oil supply. But I convinced myself that we were doing a good thing. And it appealed to the 21 year-old kid I was; to be crewing a tank in the desert, just like an old WWII movie about the war in North Africa, or something.

I was so disgusted when the Clown Prince was appointed pResident. And horrified when he began beating the drums of war against Iraq. Like a lot of Americans, I was asking "What the hell happened to getting Osama Bin Laden?!?!?"

When I realized that two oil company executives were making a play for a nation sitting on top of the second-largest puddle of oil in the world, I knew the whole thing was a scam.

I'm a third-generation veteran, and the span of those generations has shown me that we as a nation have become what we beheld. We've gone from fighting the Nazis to being the Nazis; inventing lame excuses as a justification for invading countries that are no threat to us.

Please don't thank me for my service; I'm not sure I've done anything to be proud of.

[SunSeeker]

23. Powerful post. Thanks. nt

[geckosfeet]

27. Thanks for trying. Not your fault the leaders are crooks.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

39. The "thank you for your service" is something that Ollie North may have started when interviewing

troops for Faux News.

Ollie North who helped sell sophisticated munitions (Hawk and TOW missiles) to an enemy country and wrap himself in the flag while doing so.

The phrase is an irritant. Although some people mean well when they say it, they should drop it.

[Aristus]

45. I agree. It has become, out of a well-meaning sense of obligation,

a pleasantry, a polite nothing, like "Have a nice day."

[bike man]

55. But we see a lot of posts saying exactly that when there is a thread for "Vets check in" or

something similar.

[Aristus]

60. Here at DU, I can be sure they are sincere and well-meant, and

not just obligatory.

I've been with groups of people, including strangers, and the subject of my veteran's status comes up, and there will be a chorus of "thankyouforyourservice!" from people who don't even know me.

As if I had announced that I had received a pay raise, and everybody was offering me a polite 'congratulations!'

[bike man]

62. That is not what you said.

"It has become, out of a well-meaning sense of obligation, a pleasantry, a polite nothing, like "Have a nice day."

You did NOT say 'with the possible exception of DU', but rather, it is "a polite nothing".

Have a nice day.

[Hissyspit]

66. Not the same.

[davidpdx]

104. My grandfather was on one of the most important missions in history

He said he never regretted it. Granted this was WWII and not any of the more contemporary wars. I have always been proud of his service to our country. You should be proud of your service.

[geckosfeet]

24. Military is an option to no job no food no home and no prospects.

And that is all part of the plan.

[formercia]

28. That's the purpose of Charter Schools and cuts to social Services.

Dumb down the population and make it so the only way out is the Military. Without my VA Benefits, I could not have afforded to go to College.

[Eleanors38]

47. ^^^ This.

[Sirveri]

58. That's why I joined in 2004. Probably the best decision I ever made.

Of course I was smart and went into a field I knew had near zero chance of seeing actual combat. But what was my other option? Starve to death on the street?

[geckosfeet]

61. You did the right thing.

But a lot of people may not have the same "non combat" options. And the whole military machine is needed - not just the combat troops.

[galileoreloaded]

26. I teach men that military, police, fire etc. is just glorified servitude.

dont be anyones trained monkey, and you only have to worry about yourself. white knighting kills souls.

[mimi85]

76. Yes indeed.

The worst cops I've ever run across all seemed to be former Marines. There's a power trip that comes with being in the military and they seem to carry that brainwashing with them to civilian life. I know several women who married cops and the domestic abuse problem was/is frightening.

[LeftInTX]

29. Not to mention multiple deployments

They very rarely did that in Vietnam.

[joanbarnes]

31. I've been saying the same stuff for years.....

[FairWinds]

32. Another Vietnam Vet

agrees. Recruiters lie. Here are just some of the whoppers they tell . .
http://www.alternet.org/story/62945/top_military_recruitment_lies
One way to work through your righteous anger is to do something about it
like joining Veterans for Peace. Counter-recruiting is one of their projects.
Personally, I'm heavily involved in the Vets For Peace Golden Rule Project
because I love sailing and the history of resistance to war and militarism
http://www.vfpgoldenruleproject.org/

[brewens]

33. Iraq was purely an organized crime operation. As long as we continue to use our

troops to cover scams like that, I'd tell any kid to never serve. We sent guys over there to be murdered for money, plain and simple.

[The River]

34. Republicans = Bad for Vets

Therefore service = bad?
I couldn't disagree more.

After 3 tours in 'Nam I came home, and despite
my wounds, I never asked the VA for anything.
3 years ago I did need them and they came through
with more than I could ever have ask for.

Earned rights are not something you're given....they are
something you take.

[atreides1]

80. Then you're one of the lucky ones

You were an exception and not the rule!

[Rozlee]

35. Now you tell me.

Seriously, when I went in as a Reservist, it was because I was a single mom that had been struggling for years just trying to get my pre-requisites for nursing, working minimum wage jobs that didn't allow me to go to class full time. I was activated for nursing school for a year and was able to complete my last year of nursing school with the stipulation that I serve 6 years, and thought that with the Cold War over, there was no real enemy "foreign or domestic" to fight. Not that it mattered. I would have gladly fought for my country against a legitimate threat to it. But I never realized that the fine print was also to be part of a mercenary army for the likes of Exxon and the energy industry. And there's the rub. Today's military is nothing more than corporate lackeys that serve at the command of the interest of the 1% to guard and defend their wealth and power. I have no one but myself to blame for sticking around and not resigning my commission, allowing myself to serve Exxon in three of their fucking wars and I didn't even get a fucking T-shirt, but I did get a lifetime of neurological problems from concussive head injuries. And you're right. As long as they've got kids, they're going to be feeding the war machine. It's like a video game, like Call of Duty, with a new version ever year. Coming soon: Gulf Wars IV. Then, Gulf Wars V. Only the point kills are real. And they're making a murderous profit from the game.

[blackspade]

36. Right on.

It is absolutely shameful what we as a nation do to veterans (in this case don't do for veterans).
My dad, as a Korean War vet, was adamant that I didn't go into the military, which I had planned after high school.
I am so glad I didn't having seen what happened to several friends that went through Grenada and the first Gulf War.

[SaveAmerica]

37. Preach it, I was sickened to read Wal-Mart will kindly hire honorably

discharged Veterans who are within a year of getting out of the service. Keep your garbage job, Veterans deserve so much more.

[ReRe]

38. Hear! Hear!!

Thank you for this outstanding OP. We have allot of young DUers who may have no one in their life to tell them the part that the recruiter left out. I think the most painful thing about entering the military is the moment you realize that everything the recruiter told you was a lie. It has to be the worst betrayal you will ever feel in your life. I am from a family with a long list of veterans going all the way back to the Rev War. But I have learned enough to know that it's a spirit killer today. I have now talked my nephew out of enlisting and also one of my sons. Nephew went on to college, graduated, married and now has his first child and a great job that's not going away. Son is doing great too. And most important, they are ALIVE AND HEALTHY IN BODY AND SOUL!

[madville]

40. Long waiting lists to join these days

I'm a vet and civilian employee for a military branch, I'm hearing 1-2 year waiting lists if they can even get accepted. It's not like the old days, no criminal records, very few waivers, just about everybody has to get a security clearance now, etc, etc.

The pay has gone way up as well, the E-4's here gross about $3500 a month, E-5's about $4,000 a month, and E-6's $4,500-$5,000. I remember making $800 a month lol.

One of the enlisted guys here is about to leave for a recruiter gig, they are only ALLOWED to recruit one person a month these days, it's all backwards from how it was due to the economy and better pay and benefits.

I wouldn't want to go back in now though, the knees and back damn sure wouldn't hold up.

[loli phabay]

53. i miss it especially when i talk to buddies still in, but im realistic in that i know my body could

Not do tabs and then fight. Getting older sucks.

[dugog55]

41. I am confused

I have friends at work that I have know for 30 years, I have met their families and our children played together. I could not understand their excitement when their children enlisted in the service. These were sweet children, full of life and fun. Do they not know that once joining the military, the main objective is to turn your sweet, innocent child into a machine of sorts that is trained to kill other humans. And if they were to ever see active duty, they would NEVER be the same sweet child.

That is bad enough, but our government has used the military since WWII for the express purpose of protecting big business or oil company ventures. Our military men and women are not much more than low paid mercenaries. They brag about how are military protects and fights for our "freedoms", how exactly are they doing that? For the last 12 years we have been slaughtering Arabs that cannot even travel to another village, let alone mount an attack on the USA. The Bush administration has crippled this country with the cost of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, (not to mention the bullshit economic policies) to what end? To further enrich the Military Industrial Complex?

On top of that, like the original poster states, they totally screw over the Vets, taking away most if not all of their benefits, then claim anyone who is not on their side is not a "Patriot" but anti-American. I am ashamed that so many Americans are too stupid to understand they way they have been getting screwed for 30 years. And they keep voting in morons that are going to screw them even more.

[whatchamacallit]

44. +1 n/t

[bike man]

56. Every two years there is an opportunity to purge one entire group, and 1/3 of the other.

You typed "And they keep voting in morons that are going to screw them even more."

Of the members of congress (both groups) who seek reelection, there is about a 90% success rate. That means that we tend to keep the morons for sometimes decades - entire careers.

We the people vote for "the name you know". Incumbents know that, and count on it to maintain their careers.

[Auggie]

42. I sadly agree ...

and I have never serve.

[sabrina 1]

43. Make it worldwide. A Global effort to discourage enlistment in any military. If the leaders want

to fight, let them do it themselves. As we see, most of those sending young people to die, avoided it like the plague themselves.

IF they had to go fight, as in the past when leaders had to actually LEAD these wars, considering who today's leaders are, if no one enlisted to fight their wars for profit, there might finally be peace in the world and anyone who wanted to pick a fight, would have to take care of it themselves.

We were just talking about the hidden story of the Iraq Vets from the 1st Gulf war who were exposed to DU who are sick, or have died. Neither this government nor the British Government would even acknowledge what happened to them.

Screw them and their wars, let them and THEIR kids go do their own dirty work.

[Rebl]

68. I agree totally

They can send their own kids to fight their dirty wars!

[uppityperson]

46. Coast Guard is the only branch to sign up for these days.

[idwiyo]

50. K&R

[loli phabay]

51. when i joined up i was not interested in getting thanks or later benefits

Just wanted an adventure and three squares, a lot of people probably joined for the same reason

[cherokeeprogressive]

78. I joined the day GM closed its South Gate, CA plant. After my last shift there actually.

The GI Bill had expired and when it was reinstated they didn't even bother to grandfather in those who joined when it wasn't in effect. I could not have cared less. I stayed in the Navy 10 years and would have made a career of it if not for ACL reconstructive surgery following MCL repair surgery two years earlier.

Palma, Athens, Portsmouth, Mombasa, Caracas, Nassau, St. Thomas, Haifa, and Perth were just SOME of the places I went that I KNOW I would never have seen otherwise.

Can't agree with the OP but completely understand how some could feel that way. Thank goodness for the First Amendment.

[tularetom]

52. I didn't have any choice

I was told my services were required and being a dumbass 19 year old, I went.

My military career was brief and undistinguished. I was discharged in 1962 and I never left the US. But I did receive some help with my education and was able to buy my first home with no money down thanks to VA financing.

On balance I would call it a positive experience although I would not have said that at the time. But I never felt terrorized or bullied, what I mostly felt after basic training was extreme mind numbing boredom. I don't think that part of the experience has changed in 50 years.

My grandson is 16 and contemplating enlistment after HS graduation in 2014. I can't tell him what to do but I'm sure working on him to change his mind.

[Rebl]

69. Show

Him this post and the responses. Maybe it will help in his decision.

[cynatnite]

54. I'm not saying that how Vets are being treated isn't abysmal, but...

Why a person serves is their own decision. To put on a uniform knowing that you may be sent away to die is no small thing and each person who does, has their reasons.

You and I may think they are wasting their lives, but it's such a personal decision that I don't think we have a right to judge or to even tell them they are wasting their lives.

You will never hear me arguing how poorly vets are being treated. I'm a vet and a woman at that. My gender continues to be treated like dirt. As a vet, I won't even go to the VA for my medical care because women are segregated from the men despite the fact that women physicians treat the men. Crazy, isn't it?

Anyway, I understand and respect what you're saying. I just think joining the military is a very personal decision and we'd be wrong to judge the individual for it.

[ReRe]

70. Who's "judging the indivividual"?

No one here is judging individuals/military soldiers (unless you're talking about recruiters.)

We certainly do have a right to tell someone what the recruiter left out.

[alarimer]

57. There is nothing more disgusting than public fawning over the troops.

This military worship has to stop.

Now, I agree that what has been promised to them for serving should be delivered. But the fawning needs to stop.

They should refuse to serve because the military is a death machine committing war crimes daily. No one should knowingly be a part of that. And the world hates us for our war mongering.

[sulphurdunn]

64. You go to war.

He goes to Yale. You shed blood in the war and he makes blood money off it. You work for him until he ships your job to the country you helped destroyed so he can make more money and you can go broke. He always knew you were a chump. Now you know too. Better late than never.

[cantbeserious]

65. Roger That ----- + 1,000,000

eom

[rhett o rick]

71. Those that I see eager to join up are the semi-psychopaths. Kicked out of high school for drugs,

fighting, etc. Like video game killing.

[pnwmom]

72. What do you think about the calls from some DUers

to reinstitute a draft?

[Marrah_G]

73. My son is in the AF Nat Guard

It was the right choice for him.

[freshwest]

75. GOP = The Real Face of Domestic Terrorism.

[markiv]

77. I was a kid during the Vietnam war

and i've never understood how anyone who lived through that period could possibly forget the lessons of that era

i'm not against the concept of a military, it's necessary at some level for self defense

but i also know that our government is capable of drafting you into a uniform, sending you to a fight we dont need to be in for profit, put you in a body bag, wheel chair, or on the street with serious physical and mental problems, and not only forget your sacrifice, but the fact that you ever existed

i'm sad to see what some of the iraq and afganistan soldiers have goen through. but does it surprise me? no.

i learned all i needed to know, when i was 7 years old - i saw what happened to guys about 11 years older than me

[pnwmom]

83. I was a little older and I don't either.

I can never understand why some DUers will push the idea of a draft -- when we had to fight so hard to end the last one. Despite all the protests, tens of thousands of troops died AFTER the universal draft was put into place. It didn't stop the war -- it just provided more cannon fodder.

[markiv]

95. the idea of an actual draft, is an alternative to an economic draft

the thinking being, that in a period like late 2002, if the average family thought it might be THEIR kids having to go, they might be joing the very thin protests instead of putting a chinese made flag and eagle sticker and their SUV bumper, and saying 'go get 'em' at the water cooler (not that most people did that, but too many did). that war was shoved down our throats with a complicit media, and could have been stopped, with enough resistance (i'm not niave, it would have taken a LOT up people to 'wake up')

that is a rational arguement, that more fair sacrifice would cause people to weigh the sacrifice more seriously (a sad but true comment on people), but i agree with you that the end result would just be 'it just provided more cannon fodder'

but again, as a kid during vietnam, it kind of shocks me that anyone could forget how wrong it can go. American families paid 58,000 lives for that lesson

[Stainless]

79. The Military Industrial Complex is Corrupt

I am a Vietnam Era Vet (1966-1972) and I would advise any young person today to avoid military service. Why ruin your life for the benefit of the 1%?

[defacto7]

81. Thank you for this OP and the comments.

It taught me a few things about my oldest son and what's happened to him.

[pnwmom]

84. Sorry to hear that, defacto7. n/t

[DreamGypsy]

82. The Universal Soldier...

...her/his orders come from far away, no more..

I think the lady, the musician, Buffy Sainte-Marie, distilled the problem better than any politician, philosopher, or priest.

[DeSwiss]

85. K&R

[democrank]

86. Thank you for posting this.

Wish I could recommend it a thousand times.

[John2]

89. I'm very happy to

hear fellow vets speaking up. I'm against U.S. Foreign Policy because it mostly reflects rightwing GOP agendas. When you get to Foreign Policy, you can't tell the difference from a Democrat or Republican because it is all the same. I don't think fighting these Wars benefit anyone, not in the top percent of this country. It is usually for influence and control of resources in other countries. It gives them a World Labor Force also. I served for this country and I'm also a minority in this country. When I hear the GOP talk about fighting Wars in foreign countries based on peoples' human Rights, I find that laughable. When they talk about fighting wArs for religious freedom and against intolerance, I find that laughable. When they talk about dictators starving the Poor and enriching themselves, I find that equally laughable when you look at their Policies in this country. Their Policies are for enriching a few people and their empire building benefit a few people and the people they help gain power. Do you really think the GOP are concerned about the human rights of poor Arabs in the Middle East? It was a joke when their Presidential candidate traveled to Israel and made racist remarks about the intelligence of Arabs. I don't think he visited the PLO Authority. So certain Democratic politicians believe the only way that you can get power is to triangulate and appease the Right.

That is why I have moved even further to the left. The left has not been in power for decades. This country has shifted to the Right ever since Ronald Reagan came to office and I was a young soldier in the military then serving this country overseas. While the top were making their profits, I was on the frontline. Sure I got an Education but the slashing of benefits had already began. And even though I did get a good Education, didn't guarantee me a good job unless it was a Government opportunity. It depends on who you know, more than your skill. These people running these Fortune 500 companies are no smarter than anybody else. Most of those top jobs are kept within the family or a small group of people. The best counterbalance to that was some job in the government with less discrimination opportunities for management. It is hard to prove discrimination in the private sector. The Government does not decide who gets ahead, the people at the top doing the hiring decides who gets ahead. You see a lot of people at the Top wearing many hats. They also decides who to lend credit to. I'm totally against people like the Koch brothers and Murdocks. They are no different than any dictator hoarding resources in North Korea. As long as they control those resources, that i9s who Congress listen to. They are all too big to prosecute. Romney should be in jail, not running for President. The same goes for George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. Just what makes these men different than Kim? I certainly agreed with the letter addressed to them by a dying vet. I think it should have been published for all the country to see as a National Disgrace!

[HiPointDem]

90. kr.

[Scuba]

91. Scuba, a Vietnam vet, agrees.

Thanks TheMastersNemesis.

[TheMastersNemesis]

93. I Worked With And At Homeless Shelter In Colorado "86-end 95 - 50% Vet Homeless

At DOL I supervised a day labor worker for 6 years and operated the same day labor for 4 years at the Boulder Homeless shelter. According to their numbers 50% of their population were veterans. All I know is that I had a lot of veterans using "day labor". When I first started at the local Job Service we had about 30% of our files veterans and one Vets rep in 1976. Thun units were expanded to 3 with 2 VA rated disabled vets in every office seeing only DISABLED VETS. The office was to see all other vets seeking work along with the Vet unit supervisor.

Reagan had te 40 offices in Colorado reduced to 20 during the mass government layoffs of 1981-82. He cut fed services by at least 10%-15% and we never really recovered from that. Today services to the public much less vets has been reduced by 80% by the GOP. They want private corporations or churches to be the NEW JOB SERVICES for regular workers.

In fact they want NO HELP FOR ANYONE much less veterans. Their agenda ALSO INCLUDES PRIVATIZING all services to vets in the future. Of course they will lie about that as well. Unless you have spent 24 years in programs like I have as an average citizen their plans are secret.

The new vets are like a "man without a country". No one really wants to take responsibility for their plight. If you go into combat YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN IF YOU GET HURT" after you are out of service.

The GOP HATES VETS BECAUSE THEY COST TOO MUCH IF THEY ARE HURT OR ILL. They have murdered a lot of our soldiers and abandoned all our vets upon return. DOES ANYONE WONDER WHY I WANT TO SEE THE GOP SNUFFED? FROM MY PERSPECTIVE BASED ON WHAT I HAVE SEEN AND THE FRIENDS THAT I KNOW HAVE DIED AT THE HANDS OF GOP NEGLECT I PRAY FOR THE DEMISE OF THE GOP.

Folks you really do not know how bad it really is for the new guys. THE MEDIA IS USELESS AND THE OLD LEGION AND VFW are now no more than RW shills. The used to help vets, but no longer do. THAT IS WHY I HAVE NEVER JOINED.

[Raster]

94. The American Military now serves two primary functions:

(1) Global rent-a-soldiers serving the Texas-American Petroleum Mafia; and
(2) Taxpayer financed cash cow for the Military/Industrial/Congressional Complex.

[BrotherIvan]

96. The recruiters prey on the economically disadvanted

When I was a teacher in an inner-city school, you should have seen the rukkus the military recruiters and police made come graduation time. Giveaways and events. And this was a small school. I never saw that at my upper-middle class college town high school. It was appalling. I had to talk more than one student out of it and expose the lies and promises the recruiters made. I would not allow them in my classroom and begged the administration not to let them in the building. But the military gives kickbacks for their fodder. Graft for blood.

I very much appreciate this post. I wish more vets would speak up and tell the truth like this. You could be saving lives this way. I know that is a major reason why we don't have a real jobs program in this country.

[Zorra]

97. Thank you, TMN.

I have way too many friends and acquaintances who suffer from very serious combat induced PTSD and or other disabilities caused by their military experiences. I just spent several days at a large private festival in a remote area in close contact with one of them.

"Coincidentally", on the ride home last night, I was thinking about posting an OP very similar to what you have posted here. Thanks for saving me the time.

[moondust]

98. I know I wouldn't go in today

if there was any way to avoid it. If you're likely to end up unemployed/underemployed and dirt poor anyway, why put yourself through it?

[11 Bravo]

99. I really want to disagree with you ... but I can't.

VietNam vet here, 70-71, most of it in that Hell hole known as the A Shau Valley. I would do everything in my power to dissuade my sons from military service; and I say that proudly cognizant of the fact that every male member of my family dating back to the 18th century has served under arms.

[whatchamacallit]

100. +1

Honor and intelligence

[TheMastersNemesis]

101. I Have Taken This Stand Because Of My Experience And That Of My Peers Who Served

I learned soon after I got back how valuable my service was. What shaped my opinion more than anything was my time with DOL. We had a lot of vets services then but it was still very hard for vets to get established. A good many ended up in government because that was the only job they could get. Employers were more than just indifferent they were even somewhat hostile in my opinion. The value of vets was publicly lauded but it was only empty words. It was like the promises to the Indians and the public really didn't care.

As a matter of fact a lot of people in my agency resented any kind of vets preference. We were more protected on seniority and extra points on exams. It was like we were being pampered. Yet most of us were drafted. We were not volunteers. I know very few guys I worked with who would have enlisted. Two of my closest associates one a 23 year friend committed suicide. An very few American know that millions of vets fell fell through the cracks. There was NO de briefing after Nam. In most cases garrison duty after a year overseas was brutal and rigid.

Today I see it as worse because of multiple tours. This travesty means that virtually all vets will have PTSD over time. It can inflict you months or years after you are out. And it really is NOT curable. It is a chronic disease that kills your soul silently. Also soldiers with injuries not survival in Nam have been saved. A good many WILL NEVER EVER BE ABLE TO WORK OR HAVE A NORMAL LIFE. Many will have to live their lives in a nursing home.

We are not prepared as a nation to spend the $ trillion to care fore these people. Even as I write the GOP is looking for ways to skip out on that bill. Their entire secret agenda is to reduce or privatize the care and cut the money. When I hear their code talk it makes me furious.

The final question is what are we fighting for? Right now the only thing I see if the right for billionaires and their allies to exploit workers and make money off of war. If the job creators are creating jobs it is in place like China and not here. And China is our next enemy.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

105. 4 years of doing absolutely nothing beneficial to anyone.

But, I could walk in line, shine boots, salute nincompoops, shit in a hole, and shout "Aye-Aye, Sir" in chorus.

USMC '61 - '65

[mentalsolstice]

106. Very much agree

And so would my husband, who spent 14 months in Nam, via the USAF.

In addition to kids now coming out with physical and mental disabilities, I see others, like my husband's nephew, totally devoid of any heart or soul. He left the USMC a year ago after 2 stints in Afghanistan. He is now an over-bearing homophobic misogynist brat. He showed up for the first day of classes at the school of his choice only to find that his out-of-state tuition wasn't covered. He had plenty of time to game and FaceBook over the last 4 years, but not enough time to research his benefits. So he found himself stuck with 1 year lease in a town where he didn't know anyone. In the end he enrolled in the local community college. However, he resents that his benefits don't cover his payments and insurance for his fancy sports car, his 2xmonthly 300 mile road trips to see his gf, and now he's forced to work a part-time job. He resents that his "shitty little community college" still requires him to write papers and study for exams. As it is, he's not cutting it and is dropping out at the end of this term.

As for his gf, she was in her senior year, majoring in a lucrative field, with lots of job opportunities, which she was totally stoked about. She was attending a top-tier state school in his home state. He recently talked her into dropping out, because her career would have required travel with male coworkers, and that was "unacceptable and unladylike." She's now enrolled in a certificate program at a trade school (nothing wrong with trade schools), but I'm sure her parents are very proud.

I guess what I'm getting at, I'm seeing kids getting out totally unprepared for the day-to-day hardships one way or another. I blame the military, as they first strip them of their identity, and any sense of independence, and in the end they provide little to nothing in prepping them for civilian life. Unless, this nephew gets his crap together soon, I see little hope for his success, occupationally or in his personal life. And I fear the costs to my SiL, who thinks the family should coddle and worship him because of his service.

Off-rant!

[TheMastersNemesis]

108. Marines Are Very Good At Brainwashing Their Recruits. It Just Seems That Most Marines End Up Being

hyper right wingers who are super patriotic. Too many seem to lack any sense of compassion. I was US Army which is bad enough but when I was in Nam I thought the Marines were a little crazy. They seemed to take too many casualties and let suicide missions rule their strategy. They were dangerous to work with and risked lives to casually for my taste.

[mentalsolstice]

109. I dated a Marine (helicopter pilot) for three years...

He's now on his 4th marriage, and I can only imagine how that happened. I'm not saying all Marines are bad, I had plenty who were great friends. However, there is a certain indoctrination, many move past it, others don't, and I fear our nephew will not, and it will contribute to his downfall. I'm scared for his gf and my SiL, who worships the ground he walks on, and she expects the rest of us to follow.

[canonfodder]

110. odd

Well, I'm a real helo guy from that era.
I flew I-Corps in 67-68.
Been there done that.
I find the OP's assesment to be false in many regards.
I have had nothing but good experience with VA, and their employees.
I am not offended by anyone that says "thank you for your service".
It's a rough road, girl. We all handle it as best we can.