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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhat kind of bullet sickness do we have in America?
Papa Goldstein is visiting this weekend. We were BSing about stuff last night, and he told me something that I was sure was wrong: he heard on Bill Maher's show that in all of 2011, German police fired a total of 85 bullets against people.
80 million people, 85 bullets in a year. No way.
Yes way.
Wow.
Soon after we spoke, I read here on DU about some folks from the Florida Sheriff's office who got their man, a suspected car thief. Got him good. Real good. He seems to have been unarmed and had his hands in the air, but the cops fired 137 rounds at him anyway. More bullets in one place, at one person, in one moment than the entire German police fired in a whole year.
And then this afternoon, I watched a brutal video of an individual who felt compelled to fire 33 rounds at some police who'd stopped his car. Fortunately the cops were able to save themselves.
My cousin lives in Newtown, where so many children were recently mowed down like weeds.
What the Hell is wrong with this country, that we need to shoot at each other so much? What is it with our cult of the bullet, that ends almost 100 lives each day?
It is a sickness that runs deep. So many dead. We don't need all of these bullets, all of these guns.
Gun laws help: Here in Massachusetts, and in other places, strong gun laws greatly reduce the number of gun deaths.
But deeper than gun laws, there is a spiritual cancer here that needs attention. Why do so many have such fear, that they need such firepower?
We have a lot of work to do in fixing laws, and fixing hearts.
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Loudly
(2,436 posts)
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)The answers I get seem to run across a very distinct division line.
Excellent OP, MannyGoldstein. I truly hope to get some answers for myself as well.
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)I wonder if it's not only related to different gun laws but a more egalitarian economics. If people are getting their needs met, it makes sense you would get less social discontent and therefore less violence.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)I'll be a little research would show a strong correlation between income inequality and gun deaths.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)from the Daily Texan article linked up thread:
Europeans are actually not totally unfamiliar with not-so-strict gun policies. I study in Freiburg, less than an hour away from the Swiss border. We go there on weekend trips every now and then, but no one was ever afraid that I could get shot, even though Switzerland has a very liberal gun policy. In contrast to the U.S., however, many guns are kept in depots rather than in private households. Additionally, in Switzerland everybody must have health insurance, another European institution most Americans dislike. Without going into that discussion too much, it is important to mention because it contributes to a significant problem in the U.S.: Mental illnesses like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder can lead to mass shootings. Medical treatment can prevent that, but it is expensive, and if you don’t have health insurance you are unlikely to get it.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)states that any law which inhibits the use of a particular armament which puts the law abiding citizen at a disadvantage because the criminal will always be able to attain that gun is idiotic..
I mean where the fuck does it all stop?
Walk away
(9,494 posts)to own a gun than it is not to own one. When that day comes we can stop trying to explain it to you over and over again.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)
ileus
(15,396 posts)Mostly 22's with the kids.
with some 38,380,9mm,45,40,7mm08,223 and various 20,410,28,16,20,12ga's tossed in.
It's going to be tough acquiring another 2500 rounds of 22 to shoot this year. I've got 1300-1500 (22lr) on hand now...hopefully the market will loosen up some soon before the shooting season hits full swing.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)ileus
(15,396 posts)The kids are finally old enough to truly enjoy shooting. It was also the first year I've let them shoot the 22 pistols, and late in the season I bought a 22 conversion for one of the AR's so my daughter could enjoy shooting the AR's with us.
We've been out a couple of times so far this year but softball and baseball season are upon us and that eats up 5-6 days a week so time in tight in the spring. When we're not at the field we're either riding the bikes or on the dirtbikes...hopefully summer will provide us more opportunities to get to the range and have some family fun.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)CokeMachine
(1,018 posts)I hear from a great source they are all that's needed. Where di I hear that? Trying to remember 
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)ileus
(15,396 posts)Just for target practice.
I do have a couple of spare worn out bike tires I replaced this year getting ready for riding season. No rims so they're not good for self defense.
toby jo
(1,269 posts)premium
(3,731 posts)ileus
(15,396 posts)JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)So then you won't won't need all those guns and rounds of ammunition.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)
God knows where it all came from. But, we are in general disposing of our guns, but a few are collecting dozens of them.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)No matter what laws are passed, it doesn't get at what seems to really be the heart of the matter. This is a cultural change that needs to happen. Guns kill people, and we don't need them, but legislating them away wouldn't address what the real problem is.
spanone
(135,823 posts)canonfodder
(208 posts)The best is the one that stops an assailent in his/her tracks.
I'd rather not consider even doing that.
virgogal
(10,178 posts)
ThoughtCriminal
(14,047 posts)If we're a zillion times more trigger happy than the Germans, we are doing something wrong.
A war that ended almost 70 years ago? Germany is one of the most peaceful countries in the world. They also have a lot of guns but they don't shoot each other like the US does. I would try to find out their secret to peaceful existence since the war. There are also other countries that are even better examples of peaceful existence, but America is quickly becoming the RW state that Germany once was.
Patiod
(11,816 posts)What a great country! We have NO problems sacrificing our kids on the alter of HALF of a 220+ year-old badly-phrased paragraph. And we have no problem with the rest of the world looking at us like we're insane. Yay us.
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/guns/3-different-cases-brothers-shooting-little-sisters-3-days
marmar
(77,073 posts)
liam_laddie
(1,321 posts)Rock was way ahead of the curve, a brilliant bit.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)And it is a sickness...a cultural sickness. and the infection started long ago.
And it was slow...so slow we did not even notice it...we just thought we were dealing with one problem when it was many problems all at once.
And the gun culture was cultivated and it grew...and pop culture movies like Rambo set the tone...and we all watched it and thought, Oh that is just a movie...no big deal...but when you raise a generation of people on a constant supply of Rambo and other violent action movies that get progressively more violent and justify it all. then don't be surprised if some get off on it...in fact some can get off on nothing else.
But don't get me wrong, it is not just the movies...it is the whole package we were sold...the Ayn Rand, the trickle down, the adoration of wealth and power and the corruption of politics....all of that mattered and effected it.
I wish I had an easy solution for it but I don't...the only solution I can see is to take your children out out this cesspool of our pop culture and expose them to peaceful living...like that advice will help much in the short term.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)There are many sources of blame but the one that stands out to me the most is right wing radio. These are the people who have wasted the minds of Americans who were vulnerable and played into the pockets of those Americans who were not. To me, these are America's traitors.
TheMightyFavog
(13,770 posts)Thus if the need to use their sidearms arises, they don't go and empty the entire magazine on the target, yet only need one or two shots to do the job.
canonfodder
(208 posts)IAH, a couple days ago.
One shot, one hit, perp kills himself.
Don't read in what ain't there.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)They fired more warning shots than shots on suspects, we are constantly told that firing warning shots is a very bad idea.
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2012/05/german-police-used-only-85-bullets-against-people-2011/52162/
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)Why of course they are, that is why they are called warning shots. You are only one down in your bullet supply.
After you fire a bunch of shots at the suspect, victim, whoever, then it is most likely too late for warning shots.
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)Two you have to take your sight of the target and that means paying attention to where you new sight picture is instead of the subject, three once you draw your weapon it means that you already feel you are in a situation which may require deadly force and giving a warning shot takes time with off target on target time and you or someone else could be maimed or killed.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)What about other countries?
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)Might be that unless a german cop fires his gun the bad guy does not believe he will, i got no idea why they do. I think its something i am going to ask the next time i meet one.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Mostly illegal here. 20 year mandatory minimum sentence in Florida. Considered deadly force, and since you felt ok to aim it elsewhere, prima facie evidence you were not justified in employing deadly force.
The US and Germany are not apples to apples comparisons, not from a violence perspective, not guns, and not legal systems, or even social safety nets.
colorado_ufo
(5,733 posts)moondust
(19,972 posts)Little Weenie Compensation And Power Hungry Syndrome
geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)each year.
The Walther pistols i own were manufactured in Germany. Each one came with a test target. Five rounds each to test accuracy and function. Walther does this many thousands of times per year.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)Nothing wrong with a little target practice.... but not into unarmed people on the street. That's not the way Germans do it. Why is that?
BTW, you have any links to your statement about police gun practice in Germany?
geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)No link for police practice in Gbh. I know agencies practice a lot in the US. They must range qualify yearly. I would expect similar standards for agencies worldwude.
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)More range time than most cops who just shoot once a year to qualify. Honestly you need to do drills weekly if you want muscle memory, hence why i do weekly close quarter shooting and can draw and fire four rounds sometimes five into a target at seven yards in two seconds. I also run shotgun drills once a month at least and most practices i simulate transitions from shotgun to handgun to build the muscle memory.
geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)graham4anything
(11,464 posts)people bombarded with anti-Obama type talk, hate the government, the burn it down crowd
that thinks V for vengence is a left wing hero, wearing masks like its Halloween with V's picture over it, even though its a movie
playing video games, playing characters, charades,
listening to rush and glenn and the alt-media crowd with their loud voices but so little in number like the total members of hte nra and yes there are lots of guns out there, and lots of bullets, but the total number of people with guns are very few, especially in the big cities
with the good security and extra protection.
listening to lies like Wakefield and all the other conspiracy theorists who peddle that smut
the mob like rah rah rah hate hate hate crowd
the protesters that started a few years back, mostly anarchists and chaotic types that went to economic summits and threw rocks
the ones that whine when they burn it down then don't like being arrested
unlike the coordinated protests in the past, where they got arrested, accepted it, in and quickly out without the whine, quick and done, the protest and the arrest
the true legends like Martin Sheen (a favorite of Boston isn't he?) and the others who were real cause people. It was symbolism not anarchy
It was NOT arsonist like burn it down just to enjoy the ashes
We can eradicate some cancers now, we have vaccinations for eradicating many diseases,
but those anti-types, like the frauds Wakefield keep bringing them back.The anti-s wanting their independence to George Bailey like jump off the bridge and take everyone else with them without accepting the help of Clarence.
ah the good old days the Norman Rockwell white white picket fence days that 80% of the democratic party actually thought sucked, not very good old Happy Days for the 80%
yeah, the 80% get screwed while the 20% play.(Even founding father Thomas Jefferson was part of that 20% crowd in his famous "All men that looked and acted like Tommy were equal and no one else was).
yup, agree with the OP, time to render the 20% politically obsolete, and let the 80% get on with their life.
The 80% that don't want to burn things down just to play in the ashes.
RZM
(8,556 posts) 
whopis01
(3,510 posts)That was the reason given for shooting a suspect only 68 times in Polk County, FL.
And then this statement was celebrated. It is unbelievable.
http://thepolicenews.net/default.aspx/act/newsletter.aspx/newsletterid/26901/category/News+1-2/MenuGroup/Home.htm
rwsanders
(2,596 posts)It is in an article about how some scientists are studying how all the processing of sensory data doesn't just occur in the brain (not relevant, but might help someone find the article).
Anyway, the study said that students asked to make a snap decision regarding whether or not that a person in a video was pulling a gun or an innocuous object were 30% more likely to guess that the object was a gun (when it was not) if they were holding a toy gun. This was true even if they had a gun within view but were not holding it.
Not sure this study proved the point of the article, but it does seem to prove the point that if your only tool is a hammer, you see every problem as a nail.
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)great 
but but.. the govt is buying out the ammo.. X_X
this is mostly because American cops aim to kill. German cops aim to seek justice. and to seek why. the more why's that are caught the less this will happen.
SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)The USA was founded as a British Colony, specifically as a place where England would be able to send out the people who were badly mistreated in it's society: the Scotch, the Irish, the non-Anglican protestants such as "Anabaptist" (as they were called back then.) Now, these people were sent off to a hostile environment, and told they could get land if they just killed the natives and other Europeans. Queen Liz did so regret that the Spanish got the jump on them, especially after all that Aztec Gold started to buy all those ships and guns for Spain.
So, you had a bunch of people who were among the most oppressed in England, all of a sudden thrown into a place where shooting is the only way to survive. Worse yet, you got rewarded with power if you were able to shoot more people. Add to this that, unlike Canada, the Americans finally said "hey, we are the ones fighting and dying here, why should King George in London get most of the profits, seeing as how he still thinks of us as trash!"
You see, those in power know that if you can get a bunch of people ready to shoot others, that they will be manipulated into one way of solving problems. It's a riff on Voltaire's old saw "those that can make you believe absurdities can make you do atrocities." It does not matter whether it is the Klan in the 19th century, Assassins in the 20th, or "lone Wolf gunmen" in the 21st, the rich and the powerful know that they can raise up a bunch of armed fools to do their bidding.
blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts).