I thought we did away with debtor's prison

[bigtree]

. . . why is prison still a punishment option, then, for debts owed to the government?


The Associated Press ‏@AP 53s
Grammy-winning singer Lauryn Hill sentenced to 3 months in prison for failing to pay about $1M in taxes: http://apne.ws/Ys3QCd -CJ

[closeupready]

1. We're bringing them back, under the guise that

in ignoring a court summons in an action over consumer credit default, you have effectively committed contempt of court, and thus, you are just as guilty of a jailable offense as someone who, for example, refused to identify sources for a news story which compromised national security.

[Fumesucker]

2. Sending a message to Jamie Dimon?

[Safetykitten]

15. Are you kidding? The only message he would get is an inviite for lunch.

[gopiscrap]

3. Yeah no kidding

I spent 13 months in a federal prison because I had cancer a second time. Insurance dropped me the first time and the second time I was uninsured and wracked up 168K (1998) dollars in medical bills. I filed bankruptcy too often to stop garnishments and keep treatment...so yeah, fuck the govt and it's debtors prisons!!!

[closeupready]

5. I hope you are now in good health.

[gopiscrap]

43. I am and thanks to a Democratic Administration

as governor in Washington State, I got health Insurance well before ObamaCare, which I truly wish was a single payer plan

[newmember]

4. IRS ........the only legalized mafia in the U.S.A

[Dreamer Tatum]

6. I see...only corporate execs should be jailed for tax evasion

[newmember]

7. It doesn't matter what the profession is

It should not be a prison sentence imposed by the government.

Let the government confiscate property for back taxes.
No one should have to be behind bars for not paying money owed to the IRS

[BainsBane]

8. failing to pay taxes violates federal law

It isn't like a debt. The rich would never pay taxes if they didn't have the threat of seriously penalties.

[newmember]

9. You do realize it's not always the rich that go to prison for this.

And even though it is a federal law.
I'm sure you don't agree with all the federal laws on the books that impose prison time on violations

[BainsBane]

11. Yes, I know that

but this is not going to prison for debt. It's a violation of federal tax law. Without enforcement we become a third world nation where tax compliance is low and we can't finance the country's needs.

[newmember]

12. Without taxes a country implodes , I know that

They can confiscate property .
That's what they will do anyways.

There should be no prison time for an offense like this.

[BainsBane]

13. That's how they got Al Capone, you know

There is nothing new about this.

[newmember]

14. I know it's not new , I just don't agree jailing people for this.

[Orrex]

16. Maybe not, but it's still not a debtor's prison

If Ms. Hill had borrowed money to pay her tax bill and was subsequently jailed for failing to repay the loan, then that would be debtor's prison.


What do you propose as an alternative penalty for failure to pay taxes, if not jail time? It seems clear that fines and financial penalties won't offer much of an incentive, so what then?

[newmember]

19. What they already do

They seize and freeze bank accounts , confiscate property and sell at auction.

[BainsBane]

23. and what about the people who stash it all overseas?

[newmember]

28. The reason that's allowed is the rich lobbied our politicians

The thousands of pages our tax code is was not intended to help the government
or the middle class.

[BainsBane]

41. It isn't allowed

It's illegal under US tax law. They can stash it there but they can't avoid paying taxes on it. Your proposal would take away any reason for them to pay taxes.

[Chan790]

26. I disagree.

I don't think property confiscation is a real deterrent and we'd be facing the "Greek Problem" ourselves if we did not use incarceration as a deterrent.

[geckosfeet]

10. Ha ha. Very funny. Indentured servitude and bonded labor are making huge comebacks

after having mutated slightly to avoid legal difficulties.

[Seeking Serenity]

17. Just to be clear

This is was NOT meant to be a show of support for Lauryn Hill for her NOT having paid taxes legally due and owing, correct?

[bigtree]

18. just to be clear

. . . I don't think Lauryn Hill should go to jail for failure to pay taxes.

My question regarding this instance is, why the government decided to take away this option for private debt, yet reserves that punishment, or coercion, for debts owed to the State or country?

[Seeking Serenity]

20. I guess because it's not a crime

to default on a private debt, not anymore (thankfully).

It is a crime to fail to pay taxes legally due and owing. And understand, prison terms for tax evasion is only ONE of a number of possible criminal sanctions.

[Dreamer Tatum]

24. Yeah, right. If she was an exec at Goldman Sachs who owed a tenth of that tax bill

most here would want her planted UNDER the prison.

I just like a little consistency, that's all.

[bigtree]

25. alright, Tatum. Consistency

. . . I get that folks affected want every law available to prosecute and hold those executives accountable and coerce them to make good on their liabilities and debts. I get that. I do think there's a fractured logic in rejecting that punishment or coercive option for private debts owed, and reserving that option for government.

[hughee99]

27. She's not going to jail because she can't pay her taxes, she's going because she DIDN'T

pay her taxes.

[newmember]

29. No...she did pay them

with fines and interest imposed

[hughee99]

30. According to her, she paid them.

According to the court (at least the last I saw) she had not paid it all, yet.

"Despite assurances to the court today that her outstanding tax liabilities had been paid in their entirety, Lauryn Hill was slapped with a three month stint in prison for failing to file and pay taxes on time. The sentence was handed down by U.S. District Court Judge Madeline Cox Arleo who had previously postponed the sentencing for two weeks after learning that Hill had not yet made restitution."

In any case, she's not going to jail because the books aren't balanced. She didn't even try to pay taxes for a few years, and it sets a bad example if you let celebrities slide on paying taxes and then let them just cut a check if and when they're caught.

[newmember]

32. It's not about being a celebrity to me

I don't care about that , I just don't agree with the prison time for anyone .

difference of opinion

[KharmaTrain]

34. No Prison Time For Anyone???

...not even convicted or self-confessed murderers and rapists? What punishment do you think is proper for this crime?

[newmember]

42. No man , for taxes

[hughee99]

36. I understand where you're coming from.

I'm just not sure how you can get everyone to pay if you don't eventually have the ability to take away their freedom, though it should be used as a last resort.

In this case, if she did pay the money, I'll bet the sentence is more politically motivated, just to show that famous people aren't treated differently.

[2ndAmForComputers]

31. An example to scare straight all tax evaders...

...with an albedo < 40%.

[LanternWaste]

33. "We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes..."

In 1989 Leona Helmsley was sentenced to 16 years in federal prison (only served about a year and a half though). Sometimes, the consequences of arrogance and greed to the point of breaking the law are prison. Yet she too was not imprisoned for debt, she was however, imprisoned for defrauding the government... much like Lauryn Hill.

Debt versus Defrauding the Government. Two wholly and separate concepts. Unless of course, one believes that defrauding the government is nifty-caliifty and peachy-keen... in which case, the owner of the plant that caused the explosion in West, Texas two weeks ago should simply get a slap on the wrist.

[hughee99]

38. Yes, we had a state senator who didn't even file federal tax returns

for a few years. They eventually caught up with her and she paid her taxes. As "punishment" they suspended her law license (which, as a Senator, she didn't need) for a year.

[Xithras]

39. It may have just been ignorance.

Keep in mind that Lauryn Hill dropped out of the music scene for years, and that the charges surround the years that she wasn't an active musician. She went from a music star with accountants and assistants who dealt with taxes for her, to living in a fairly modest house with her mother and children in New Jersey. Her initial excuse that she didn't know the rules, or what she had to pay taxes on, is actually pretty plausible. She'd never had to do that sort of thing in her life.

The sentence is fair. Three months will send a message to other evaders without being cruel. She did pay the bill, after all.

There's a difference between people who break the law to be malicious or greedy, and those who break the law out of ignorance, and each should be punished appropriately. I tend to think that Hill falls into the latter group, and considering that she was facing years in prison, a few months is a slap on the wrist and is fairly appropriate.

[Cleita]

35. We had gotten rid of a lot of abuses that are coming back, the

biggest that comes to mind is torturing detainees and keeping them indefinitely without trial. This is another one. Our Democracy is gone it seems and has been replaced by what is becoming more and more a police state and constitutional monarchy.

[closeupready]

37. Yet, thousands of tax evaders who stashed in Swiss bank accounts

millions (or billions?) of $$$ - when they were caught, they were allowed by the IRS in 2009 to pay those back taxes, with interest and penalties, as Ms. Hill has done - in conjunction with an agreement NOT to prosecute, and NOT to release their names.

Gotta love that double standard.

[NCTraveler]

40. So she thinks she can earn the money...

spend the money, and enjoy the money. She can use tax funded roadways and other services provided by the government through taxation to earn that money. Yet doesn't pay her own taxes. Sounds like a 1%er.

It is not a debt. It is nothing like private debt. It is money due to society on money she made.