"If you don't have to worry about Health Care, because its covered,

[bvar22]

...if you don't have to worry about the cost of Higher Education, because its covered,

if you don't have to worry about Child Care, because it is significantly covered,

if you don't have to worry about Loss of Income when you have a baby, because thats covered,

and you don't have to worry about retirement, because you have a strong retirement system,

...what winds up happening is that you live under much less stress.

...and when they do International Surveys on Happiness and Well Being,
Denmark comes out quite high."
--Senator Bernie Sanders, on Denmark and the Scandinavian countries NOT
embracing Austerity cuts to Social programs.

Isn't THAT the real goal of our lives and our Politics?
Happiness and Well Being...for all?


Brunch with Bernie,
every Friday on the opening segment Thom Hartmann show.
I listen over XM/Sirius or FSTV,
but there are numerous other ways to access this show
which airs at 2PM Central, every Friday.

I consider this one of the most important and informative shows of the week.
If you aren't listening, you should!

"The Banks and the 1% have had an incredible year of record profits,
while wages and benefits for the Middle Class decline.
We can NOT continue to balance the budget on the backs of the Middle Class."
--Bernie!



You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their promises or excuses.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]

[galileoreloaded]

1. who covers it?

because in pax Americana it was brown people, NOT our "society". curious what you think.

[leftstreet]

3. What are you talking about?

[galileoreloaded]

4. re-read the op?? nt

[leftstreet]

5. OP makes sense. Your question doesn't n/t

[bvar22]

6. The People of Denmark "cover it",

through their taxes, and administer these programs through their government.
Their taxes ARE higher,
but the benefits they receive as citizens MORE that makes up for the higher tax rate.

Because they provide these services to everyone collectively, through a responsive democratic government,
each individual pays much less for these services than they would have to pay individually in a For Profit Free Market Libertarian system.

Senator Sanders was using Denmark as an example,
but most of the Scandinavian Countries have NOT succumbed to the NeoLiberal demands for Austerity and the Privatization of these essential government services,
and are doing better than the Austerity countries.

[galileoreloaded]

7. thats great if the Danes *actually* cover it

because there is some pretty uninformed thought in this country that the "prosperity" of the 50's to 90's was "covered" by the US.

in fact it was leveraged off of the Arabs, South Americans, and Africans. just want to be clear.

[enlightenment]

8. Perhaps you should start your own thread,

discussing the issues you are raising about US foreign and domestic policy in the 1950s.

Because what you are discussing has nothing to do with what Denmark is doing and what Sen. Sanders is pointing out. Apples and oranges.

[galileoreloaded]

9. the current view of macro-economics held by

oh, the entire world will vehemently disagree. no special snowflakes anymore.

[enlightenment]

10. One day,

when you start making sense, get back to me.

I won't hold my breath.

[galileoreloaded]

11. oh, it made sense, but only through a sufficient enough worldview

which a precious few contain.

i dont blame you.

[enlightenment]

13. I've heard therapy

is useful in combination with medication, but first you have to admit you have a problem.

[galileoreloaded]

15. lol. i've heard reading and reading comprehension is fundamental. its a draw.

[Neoma]

60. It's troublesome that you're turning mental health problems into insults.

[2ndAmForComputers]

40. I understand you perfectly.

"If somethin sushulist looks like it's working, there MUST be a catch! If there ain't, it's coz them libruls are hidin' it purty well!"

[galileoreloaded]

42. i wish socialism would take hold!

what i am pointing out the brutal capitalism which america off-shored and that boomers conflate as pax Americana new deal LBJ gains.

may your chains rest lightly eh?

[dreamnightwind]

46. I get it

Your point is correct, though somewhat misplaced on this thread. Seems like you would be supportive of the comparison to Denmark's approach, and the stress reduction it results in.

It amazes me that so many are oblivious to the factors going into the U.S.'s amazing prosperity that came post-WWII and pre-Reagan. Many of those gains were made at the expense of oppressed people world-wide. Foreign governments that refused to play by our rules were either opposed or replaced, overtly or more often covertly. Labor movements in the third world were destroyed by proxies of U.S. based corporations. Our military bases all over the planet were another means of enforcement. Many coups were orchestrated by personnel in U.S. embassies. So yes, the prosperity of the post-WWII era was in large part achieved at the expense of others.

Why you chose this thread to make this point, as if suggesting that the stress-reduction of the Danish by strong social infrastructure couldn't be achieved here without doing so on the backs of poor and oppressed people elsewhere, is beyond me, perhaps you'd like to explain.

One point worth considering is that Denmark taxpayers don't have the burden of supporting our insanely huge military and "security" infrastructure. I'd like to see the U.S. taxpayers awaken to that, and radically cut spending in those areas. Most of the reason we need them is because of blowback from past activities by those same entities.

But let's face it, we can provide for our citizens' needs in this country, the people that "matter" just won't permit it since it would get in the way of corporate profits. That's why this is an excellent O.P.

[galileoreloaded]

47. it's the fallacy that"its covered" and it isn't at all

its the same shit.

the EU, ECB, etc. all have the same masters and that "stability" they enjoy is a direct result of the american military presence in europe which can only exist as we offshore cheap manufacturing and pollution to China and India.

we cant produce 25% of the tanks, bombs and guns that we did in WWII, and likely never will again as "america".

but we sit here and idealize small scale social experiments and hold them up as shining examples.

face it. you, all of you are slaves and soooo sooooo fucked.

[dreamnightwind]

49. Well, I disagree

I think what you call small-scale social experiments are quite workable here. It would require tremendous change, but that's exactly what I advocate.

Perhaps the Scandinavian countries are, as you suggest, benefiting from these same control mechanisms that are the crutch of the corporatists, but I don't think they're benefiting to any degree that should negate using their social policies as examples of how a nation can take care of its people, and be better off for doing so. That appears to be where you and I part company. Have a good one.

[bvar22]

12. At this point,

I will make the same request that a DUer made upthread ^.

Please start a NEW thread explaining that it is really "the brown people"
that are paying for the Social Programs in the Netherlands and other Scandinavian countries.

I'll be waiting.

[galileoreloaded]

14. read it again.....

i said was

[bvar22]

21. But the OP is in the present tense....today, here, NOW....not the past,

so of what possible relevance was your first post up thread?

...but let me make it even easier for you:

The POINT of the post was that WE, here in the USA,
could also enjoy these benefits
IF we had a political party that represented US instead of the 1%.
Not only are they possible, but practical and cost effective.

.
.
.
.
.
.
BUT there was an even bigger, over-arching purpose,
to advocate for the Thom Hartmann Show,
especially Brunch with Bernie (Sanders),
which airs every Friday at 2PM Central.


....but I would really like to see your OP where you explain you 1st Post,
and instead of being cryptic, vague, and superficial,
and claiming that we just wouldn't understand,
use your self claimed intelligence to make is simple for us.
Really Lay It Out as only you can see it.

If you want to claim that we owe it all to the slaves, and the original native Americans,
and our exploited "colonies" in Latin America,
you will find many who partially agree.

[galileoreloaded]

23. the point IS that it isnt real.

resources are, by definition a zero sum game....winners and losers.

in Americas heyday, we won but multitude others lost.

the Danes have the exact same issue. exact. you have to be willing to pick a loser before advocating for a winner.

[bvar22]

27. What possible bearing does that have on the OP?

You can chase your claim all the way back to the Cave Men if you wish,
and THAT would make an excellent essay for an OP on DU.

Please do so,
but flesh it out with some facts, statistics, and support from credible historical sources.
Anybody can drop into a thread and spout off a bunch of cryptic, unsupported claims
of questionable relevance.
Please make it simple so that even those of us with such obviously limited intelligence will be able to understand you.

[2ndAmForComputers]

41. "resources are, by definition a zero sum game"

That stopped being true when the first macromolecule capable of photosynthesis started doing its thing billions of years ago.

[galileoreloaded]

43. how cute, my first stalker!

i love antisocial people. find em fascinating.

[2ndAmForComputers]

44. I can't help if I browse through the latest threads and all^H^H^H most bullshit has the same byline.

You ain't so special, bucko.

(Edited because there's plenty of bullshit from other sources to go around, and I'm just replying to it too. As I said, not so special.)

[galileoreloaded]

45. aw shucks! nt

[zeemike]

24. And explain where all the exploited wealth went too

Not for the general welfare for sure otherwise we would have free education and health care for all by now.

[galileoreloaded]

28. for an idea, look at 1950-70 rustbelt.

the jobs, education, opportunity....ALL came at the expense of others. but in america, one typical nuclear family lived off the excess created by exploiting DOZENS of other non-americas the world over. Oil in Vietnam, industry in China, clothing from India, produce from Mexico. EVERYWHERE.

the real shame is that americans think they did it all on their own based on some egalitarian policy. yuck.

[zeemike]

30. Bullshit...all that exploited wealth went to the top.

And getting richer made them want more, so they went after the trade unions and the working class to take a piece of what they had.
Look at the history of this country and how it became wealthy....it was not by exploiting the wealth of other nations but by exploiting our own wealth...which lay in the land and the fact that we had an abundance of rich farm land and we became the bread basket for Europe...and because of that farmers were the middle class...as hard as that is to believe now.
We had vast amounts of natural resources and still do, however they are not shared with the nation as a whole.

[galileoreloaded]

31. start with James Burke's "connections".

i cant blame someone raised in slavery, but ill also never accept your premise because it just isnt true.

[zeemike]

50. All that slave labor wealth went to the slave owners at the top.

same as now...and the slaves were producing the wealth from the LAND....cotton tobacco were cash crops sold to the world.

But I learned some history while looking for my ancestors who settled in central Illinois in the 1850s...and found an obscure book about a millionaire farmer...and he made his wealth from farming because he could raise grain crops and take it down to the river and sell it for Spanish silver cause there was no monetary policy at the time...and that grain went down the Mississippi and wound up in Europe...and that silver is what grew the towns around there...the merchants came in cause the farmers had the money.

Wealth is created by natural resources plus labor...and when it is shared with labor life is good and we prosper...those are the facts.

[galileoreloaded]

52. you misunderstand. you are the slave, but i don't blame you. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Second your request

[rhett o rick]

54. I agree with post 8. nm

[leftstreet]

2. DURec

[byeya]

16. The pursuit of happiness has become an empty and bitter phrase. I recall when junior colleges

were mostly tuition free in the NE and midwest and the two best state-wide systems had very low tuition and fees until two RepubliKKKan governors, Rockefeller in NY and Reagan in CA began a concerted effort to drive up the costs of higher education to keep the riffraff out. Sad stuff.

[zeemike]

22. Indeed it has...as well as "provide for the general welfare"

I remember a time when one working person could provide for a family with wages....that is no longer possible....and it may be necessary to put the kids to work in the near future for a family to survive.
But for the 1% life is good indeed...they are in competition with one another to see who can build the biggest yacht...
K&R

[galileoreloaded]

32. it was never sustainable.

and you are having a tough time internalizing/accepting it.

[alarimer]

36. Yes it is; go back to taxing the rich the way they should be taxed.

Stop paying for illegal, immoral wars for corporate greed.

In fact, universal health care is CHEAPER than what we have now. Countries that have it spend less of their GDP on health care and they have better outcomes.

[zeemike]

51. Never sustainable when your expectations are

that the 1% owners must have an ever increasing percent of the wealth...so it is not sustainable because ever increasing profits from labor and resources going to the owner class is not sustainable
And the facts bear that out....the rich have gotten far richer and the middle class far poorer...where do you think that money came from to get the 1% so over the top wealthy?

[Lordquinton]

61. I disagree.

[byeya]

34. So do I. On our block we had fathers who were IBEW, UAW, Teamster, Carpenters Union, Steelworkers

union...mothers didn't have to work; city schools were pretty good and if a kid wanted to go to college, he/she could.
Jr college was tuition free; and kids got subsidized fare on the transit system if their school wasn't with walking distance.
The bosses did better but the wage earners did OK.

[Egalitarian Thug]

17. K&R For continuing to rage against "teh stupid" that has come to define our nation. n/t

[sabrina 1]

18. Thanks for the info Bvar. He seems to be a lonely voice these days when it comes to representing

the People. But the more people who hear what he has to say, the better.

It's astonishing to see the difference in the Scandinavian countries and the rest of Europe whose puppet governments implemented the tragic 'Austerity' programs. The very word should have been a hint as to what they had in mind.

I wish we had more like Bernie in Congress. That should be our goal for the next several elections, to create a Congress that actually works for the People. And to stop listening to those who find a million excuses as to why it cannot be done.

[freedom fighter jh]

19. Proceed with caution

I believe our society as a whole, and many of its young adult members, would be better off with higher ed paid for by the government. But this would mean more taxes paid, and that could be a real burden on folks who are barely making it as it is. It could mean the difference between eating decently and not. The solution would be to make sure that any increased government spending goes hand in hand with tax code provisions that ensure that the poor aren't giving up essentials.

I believe health care (an example you did not give) should be single payer. But still I see moral issues with that. There are people who believe abortion really means the taking of a life; knowing their taxes fund abortion might make them feel the way I feel about my taxes supporting war. I don't know the solution; I know only that health care is priced out of reach for too many people and countries with single payer seem to do much better.

Paid maternity leave could, for a child beyond the second, translate to support for population growth. Some folks believe passionately that the planet is overpopulated and that overpopulation will mean the demise of the human race. Those people won't feel great about supporting folks bringing more babies into the world.

There is a grain of truth in the right wing mantra that too much government limits freedom. The debate, of course, is about how much is too much. How much is the right amount can be stretched so that we can get the benefits of sharing, as long as every decision is made with careful thought about unintended consequences, especially about cutting into anyone's rights. I believe socialism (which is what these proposals -- and Bernie -- are about, after all) can be a good thing, but it must be done with a great deal of caution and respect for the rights of others.

[leftstreet]

25. Yes. Because senior citizens are so 'un-free'

SS and Medicare just take away their freedumz!



What a load of GOP talking points

[freedom fighter jh]

33. I'm guessing you didn't read my whole comment.

Or if you did then maybe the problem is your reading comprehension.

[byeya]

37. I read the part where you said you had moral problems with single payer. A very silly position.

Putting profits of drug companies, health insurance companies and owners of medical practices with multiple MDs before the health and well being of those in the USA is immoral. There are people being denied health services and dying to keep the profit margin where it "should" be. That's immoral.

The sin of Medicare is that with a 4% overhead it provides an unwanted good example for capitalist rationing of health services.

Your position fails the laugh test. How can you say it with a straight face? Single payer immoral? Go tell it to the VA.

[freedom fighter jh]

39. I said there were issues. I also said I support it in the end.

There are moral issues with all sorts of things that are, on balance, the right thing. Do you disagree?

[emmadoggy]

20. I have relatives in Denmark.

They seem quite happy. Wish I could go live with them.....

[xtraxritical]

26. Exactly, the USA is a hell hole filled with ignoramuses.

SOCIALISM

[99Forever]

29. I love me some Bernie Sanders.

He should be the next President.

[Jasana]

35. Unfortunately there are many in this country who are too stupid to elect him. nt

[alarimer]

38. Including couple on this thread who can't seem to see the forest for the trees.

By any objective measure, universal health care is far superior to what we have.

[rhett o rick]

55. I agree, but we cant fix this mess without them. We need to educate them. That's our

challenge.

[dreamnightwind]

48. +1,000,000,000

I would work so hard for Bernie. Better though if he could do it on the Dem ticket, to avoid being a 3rd party spoiler. But yeah, bring it on, POTUS Bernie Sanders.

[tavalon]

53. I currently have a broken shoulder

It happened a little under a month ago so the bills haven't started rolling in yet. I have insurance through my work. I am an RN. And I have no delusions that even with fighting (and I will fight) I will end up with $1000s of dollars in bills, after the insurance gets done fighting with me and ponies up.

Having health insurance, even "good" health insurance, doesn't mean I'm not worried about the bills surrounding this injury. I damn well wish I had done it at work as workman's comp is pretty much the only way to get the equivalent of universal health care, a thing every first world country except us, has.

[rhett o rick]

56. Kick and Rec for Sen Sanders, the country's best Democrat.

I hope I am not insulting him.

[gopiscrap]

57. I was born in Europe

and when we came to the US my mom couldn't believe that the US didn't cover health care, parent leave etc

[byeya]

58. Miust have been quite a shock. We squander copious amounts of money on military warte and allow

high corporation officials to divert shareholder value to their own accounts through excessive compensation and expense accounts.