Atheist With a Christian spouse

[Spartacus Maximus XL]

After finally shrugging off the vestiges of my Catholic upbringing and fully realizing that the whole concept of God and religion is utter nonsense, I made the mistake of telling my wife I was an atheist. She said she could have handled it better if I had told her I was gay.

I realize now I handled it poorly. The God Delusion is overpowering to a person who has been indoctrinated into it since birth. I should have slowly introduce her to some Richard Dawkins and Richard Hitchens and Sam Harris videos on the internet and other good internet sites, to get her to start questioning why she believes what she does Anyone else have a similar problem and suggestions on how to proceed?

[Warpy]

1. Please don't try to deconvert her

That's the quickest way to the divorce court.

You'll get a lot farther if you respect her right to determine who she is and how she wants to conduct her life.

[DesertFlower]

3. i agree. nt

[HappyMe]

4. I am in complete agreement.

If you love a person, that love includes repect for who they are and what they believe.
Trying to force her into atheism and making her watch videos doesn't bode well for her respect and love for him.

[anneboleyn]

23. Excellent response. Respect her as a person. Do not become an "evangelical" with your spouse.

[Dorian Gray]

46. If you want her to respect

you, you need to be respectful of her. I think Warpy gave great advice.

[dorkzilla]

55. Warpy is right. I was there...

Forgive the long-windedness of my story but its relevant.

When I met my first husband my Granda had just died and I was taking Nan to Mass on Sundays. He (hubby #1) was a co-worker and was delighted to see me at Church and asked me out the following week. He originally misread my participation, and after we started dating he mentioned my alleged devoutness and I told him I was a devout agnostic.

Our parish Monsignor was a good friend of the family, and he and I used to have rousing discussions about theology (there is nothing more obnoxious as an ex-Catholic who read her bible and has studied the history of the Church and comparative religion) over Saturday dinner, and hubby knew Monsignor and I were close. My Monsignor was an intellectual, and I came to love him as an uncle of sorts, as we used to debate and drink and smoke and laugh...a great, open minded priest if there ever was one. Not one hint of judgement, only the good humored, non-judgemental peaceful man that I imagined Christ would have been. Based on our closeness however, hubby decided I was just in "temporary denial" about the "truth of our Church" and asked me to marry him, over my repeated assertions that I was, in fact, agnostic.

Irrespective of my feelings after we were married I went to Mass with him and Nan every Sunday. Monsignor Healy had a stroke (ultimately fatal) and our previous Monsignor was taken out of mothballs for Easter service. During said service he spoke about limbo and purgatory. I was visibly livid. When we left the church I said to hubby "Can you believe that? They were voided by Vatican 2 and there he is in his ignorant glory telling bereaved parents their premie babies are going to hell". Hubby turned to me and said "shut up, you don't know what you are talking about". I asked "are you serious?? Have you actually READ the bible??" and he was speechless. I said "you cant take someone else's opinion for something as serious as your "faith".

We were divorced a year later (total length of my marriage? 3 years).

She knows how you feel. You need to build a bridge now...support her if she means anything to you. And for Dog's sake keep your mouth shut now. Hubby was verbally abusive so I have no misgivings about my divorce but if I loved him I wouldn't have said a word.

[Hekate]

56. Wise you are

[dorkzilla]

60. Thanks, Hekate, but I don't think I'm as wise as I am blunt (its the NYer in me)

My case was much more cut and dry...it sounds like Spartacus started off married life as, at the very least, a lip service Catholic, and I am sure Mrs. Spartacus thought they'd carry on like that forever, just as doubtless her parents and his parents had. I TOLD my husband more than once that I didn't believe in any "god" and indeed the only faith I had was in myself. My husband knew what was coming eventually and repeatedly said, as to my agnosticism and my refusal to have biological children, that he would "change my mind" in spite of the fact that I am the very antitheses of a shrinking violet.

For the record, my inner skeptic also tells me he wanted to marry me because my parents are LOADED and I stand to inherit a vast fortune. That was certainly hubby #2's motivation (in his defense he has a bad case of NPD, and thought he "deserved" it). I currently live with my boyfriend of 6 years. I hid my parent's wealth from him for 2 years. The giveaway was when he met Dad for the first time; we met for dinner, and Dad was accompanied by his pilot and co-pilot so the jig was up. In spite of that, my darling knows that (a) I am a hardworking SOB and (b) as fortunes are lost overnight, I don't rely on my inheritance, nor should he. He's a hardworking software architect and a very talented jazz musician, the nerd of my dreams. We are blue collar (as I was raised) through and through. When my parents fly their private jet into NY, my blue collar software geek jazz guitarist nerd takes THEM out for dinner.

Sorry--I know that has nothing to do with the topic at hand!!! I digress!!!

[Spartacus Maximus XL]

69. loved your story. Thanks for sharing.

[Warpy]

135. That's a great story from someone who's been there

I established boundaries with my ex early on, and my boundary was that nothing would persuade me into a church of any denomination but a wedding or funeral. He was cool with that, having been raised New England Congregationalist (UCC in the rest of the country) and was a closet Deist with a healthy skepticism, himself. If he had been religious, there would have been no way I'd have tagged along to church or tried to dissuade him from his religion. Boundaries are boundaries and they work both ways.

Religion was never our problem. If he hadn't fallen in love with booze, I'd still be there.

That's the basis for the advice to the OP. Keep your boundaries but respect your partner's boundaries. My own marriage lasted 15 years, booze and all, because we achieved that much mutual respect.

[southernyankeebelle]

103. I wish we had a like button on comments we like. Your comment is wise. Hopefully,

he will listen to your advice.

[wryter2000]

112. Thank you n/t

n/t

[ChairmanAgnostic]

116. Sorry, but I cannot agree.

First, there is no need to be afraid of divorce court. It can be a very liberating, freeing, and mentally healthy move. Divorces simply mean that people cannot live with one another.

Why should someone push aside their own rational thinking, just to satisfy the irrational ramblings based on a two part, mostly plagiarized, politicized, and fanciful collection of fairy tales? The fact that someone has been mentally abused since birth, learning about a virgin birth, adam and eve, the parting of some sea, and feeding a crowd with one loaf and one dead fish, does not mean that the spouse has to bend over and play mentally crippled, just to satisfy her warped faith.

Divorce might be the healthiest choice. I, too was married to a bible beater, and but for her bipolar disorder, her suicidal tendencies, and her physical abuse, I probably would have tried to stick it out longer. But it was the bible beating that really made things horrific. When someone is convinced of some irrational ideas (like faith and prayer heals) and lived their life by that code, nothing good can come from it. Divorce may be the only answer.

Second, if someone truly loves their partner, and they see them going down an insane path, what is wrong with trying to disconnect that collection of fairy tales from her life? If done carefully, with respect and love, it can be done. But you really have to cherish that person and be careful of relapses.

Third, she may not have had a choice in how she conducted her life. Her determination of her future, and her self-identity may have been molded by ministers, priests, and other brain-washing types, forcing in the fear of god, and forcing out rational thought. How can we NOT try to help those afflicted?

I view religion as a disease. What good does it do, except make televangelists very rich, and keep the sheeple afraid of their own shadow? Did prayer stop a flood? A tornado? A hurricane? Did tithing ever prevent a pandemic? Did strict religious behavior and beliefs ever regrow an amputated leg, or return sight to an eyeball shot out in Iraq?

It is a fool's argument to suggest that I cannot ask for proof.

Here's the deal. A couple of people decide that they know best, so they concoct a religion. They weren't necessarily evil, perhaps they were simply trying to find out why eating shellfish might kill you one time, and taste great the next. Or why a blood transfusion saves someone, but kills another. Or why there is lighting, earthquakes, and drought.

Eventually, they get more organized. They make the rules, they are the deciders. They determine your sin and the punishment you will get.
When you ask for proof of their godly intent, they say, "You Must Have Faith!" and failure to do so will cause you severe problems. If you pray, and your ill child still dies, it was because you did not pray hard enough, or that you had questions within your faith, or best of all, It Was God's Will!

What an absolute load of crap.

[Warpy]

134. I see you're in the "control your wife" camp

Suit yourself. Just don't be surprised to end up alone.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

147. just the opposite. the wife you refer to is already controlled

I suggest loosening the mental chains that were placed there by religious assholes. That is not control, that is seeking freedom.

[Rhiannon12866]

140. +100!

Respecting your partner's differences and loving them anyway is the way to go...

[Yo_Mama]

2. Can't you just agree to disagree?

Where is it written that spousal units must have uniform views on such matters?

Is your wife demanding that you change your opinion, or are you demanding that your wife change your opinion, or is it just that you communicate badly about it?

I may be misreading your OP, but it seems like you are trying to get her to believe the same way you do, and if so, I think this is a mistake. If you don't see eye to eye on this matter, surely that is irrelevant to the rest of your relationship?

[DesertFlower]

5. i'm going back a long time but my mom was

a practicing catholic. my dad was an agnostic. they couldn't get married in the church. they were married in the priest's house. they had 3 children -- all raised catholic. they eventually divorced, but it had nothing to do with religion. they stayed together for 15 years.

[knixphan]

6. Indeed

*Although that disparity is on my dating-dealbreaker list, for the purpose of avoiding said issue.

[derby378]

7. I was a Christian married to an atheist spouse

If I can ask you a few things...

Is she still the center of your world? Does she still have your heart? And do you still have hers?

If the answer to all three is "Yes," then you're going to be in good shape. Every married couple has interpersonal conflicts to work through, and the two of you have something very much in common with the two of us. We made it work. I think part of the secret is that we were both able to make each other think and keep each other on our toes mentally.

And this Quaker is cool with a few atheist authors on the bookshelf, too. I used to be president of a skeptics' club - comes with the territory. Science!

I'm sure you guys will figure it out. FYI, I'm a widower, not divorced. I still miss Ginny, but it's been a little over three years, and it's getting easier. Good luck to you both, and tell your wife I said .

[Yo_Mama]

22. Sorry you lost your wife

It sounds like a lovely, loving and lively relationship that was rich on many levels.

[Dorian Gray]

47. It sounds

like you truly had something special. I'm sorry for the loss of your wife.

[Tikki]

8. If you love her..tell her you'll keep an open mind..

which is true because your open mind lead you to the truth.


Tikki

[OriginalGeek]

9. July will be 27 years with my Baptist wife

29 years if you count the time we dated before getting married.

I've been an atheist all that time. It really isn't that big a deal.

Granted she's only gone to church a few more times than I have in those 27 years (me=0, her=a few) but she definitely believes there is a god.

Respect her wishes to believe how she wants and ask her to respect yours to not. If y'all are in love then mutual respect shouldn't be much of a problem.

[Control-Z]

11. From the OP

it sounds more like she is having a problem with him, doesn't it? That is how I perceived it.

[OriginalGeek]

21. Yep but mutual is mutual

If she's not on board with that then she'll have to decide if it's worth breaking up over.

He's asking for advice on how to proceed and I'm saying if there is no mutual respect then there may not be a way to proceed. I am sure that haranguing her for not following him into disbelief won't help anything. He has to accept that she might not come to that conclusion and be ok with that. She has to accept he's an atheist and be ok with that.

I'm also saying my relationship is evidence that a mixed belief system relationship can indeed work - because we are both OK with it.

[msanthrope]

10. Why does she need to start questioning what she believes? Being an atheist

means we don't have to convert anybody! We can just be. Be happy with your choice, and let your wife walk her own path.

[CJCRANE]

12. You make it sound like books by Richard Dawkins, Richard Hitchens and Sam Harris

are the equivalent of holy books for atheists!

If you're an atheist it's not compulsory to follow those books or convert anyone else to your way of thinking.

My advice is to just leave your wife be, if her faith is precious to her.

[LittleBlue]

13. You sound like you want to convert her

I think you ought to leave her to her faith and just get on with life.

My fiancee has her own beliefs and I have no desire to challenge her or even care about it. She does her thing, I do mine. If she wants to talk about it, I listen and comment respectfully. I respect her beliefs because I respect her. She has no interest in converting me. If you do not respect her beliefs, and your only goal is to change her into what you want, then I think you're heading for problems. Read Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris all you want, but don't bother trying to convert her. You are giving the impression that you seek a desired outcome but do not respect her.

She'll get over it. Just make sure not to overreact while she adjusts to your new beliefs.

PS: I am an ex-Roman Catholic myself.

[RebelOne]

14. My daughter is an atheist, as I am, and was married

to a very devote Catholic. She just learned to deal with it and allowed her two daughters to go to the Catholic church with him. They have since divorced, but religion had nothing to do with their breakup.

[Spartacus Maximus XL]

15. Thanks everyone. Good food for thought all the way around.

I guess I was a little excited about What all became crystal clear to me And I wanted to free her from her delusion. That was really asinine of me. I think we have come to an agreement to just not discuss it.

But it is very difficult for me to continue to go to church with her. I just keep thinking to myself get it is all bullshit. Including everything the priest says and all the prayers and all the songs and all the kneeling and supplication to an imaginary sky fairy.

[DesertFlower]

16. well i would find it hard going to church with her.

even when i was catholic i disliked going to church.

[OriginalGeek]

99. lol, same here only Baptist

I would have LOVED a catholic service - I hear they get out on time every time. When A Baptist preacher gets to holy rollin' you might not get home until half-time of the Cowboys game!

[DesertFlower]

136. i don't know if it's still that way, but they

had mass every hour on sundays, i.e., 9am, 10am, 11am, so they had to get everyone out by 9:45, etc. to get ready for the next mass.

[LittleBlue]

17. Here is the way I deal with church when a family member

wants me to go. Look at the experience as an anthropological one, not religious.

I asked myself if I would be offended if a Buddhist asked me to pray with them at their temple. No, because even if I don't believe in god, the cultural experience is not one I'd pass up.

Now, if she's demanding that you spend too significant a portion of your week at church, that's something you can discuss. Relationships in the long run are compromise. But if she's one of those Catholics who go just on holidays and special occasions, then you're in luck.

[anneboleyn]

25. Excellent response. Go for the people and experience, not doctrine. And negotiate, as you suggest

[pangaia]

54. Buddhists of all practices do not "believe in god."

So--- maybe there is an opening there...

[Yo_Mama]

24. Why must you go to church with her?

That is not agreeing to disagree.

Mutual respect allows each other the right to such choices. If you don't believe that church is about anything real, it's got to be wrong for you to go.

It's not fair of her to expect you to go through with something that to you is utterly meaningless. That is a violation of your integrity. It is a violation of her integrity for you to demand that she change her belief system to accord with yours.

There's something wrong here. I don't know what. Is she demanding that you go to church with her? Or are you just trying not to upset her? Can't you have a little trust in her and sit down and explain that it is not right for you to go to church with her because you don't believe it and you feel like a hypocrite? That' you still love her and respect her, but this is wrong for you?

[Spartacus Maximus XL]

26. no, no demands are being made

She just expects me to go to church with her since we always have fot 30 years now. She's a good woman and we are in love and I just hate to upset her. But I am really starting to hate mass. It is something of a conundrum for me. I appreciate everyone's advice and thoughts and sharing experiences. I'm thinking about it.

[Spartacus Maximus XL]

29. no, no demands are being made

She just expects me to go to church with her since we always have for 30 years now. She's a good woman and we are in love and I just hate to upset her. But I am really starting to hate mass. It is something of a conundrum for me. I appreciate everyone's advice and thoughts and sharing experiences. I'm thinking about it.

[BainsBane]

34. You shouldn't have to do that

Perhaps you could talk to her about how it would be wrong to go to mass and take holy communion when you don't believe, that that would be disrespecting the Church. Might that convince her? Regardless, she needs to respect your beliefs.

[lumpy]

49. 30 years you have been placating your wife by escorting her to church ?

You are a rare catch, I must say, or she must be hell to live with when she gets upset.

[Arugula Latte]

28. I think you need to just say: "I'm done with church."

As an atheist it would be unimaginable for me to spend Sundays in church, as you say, listening to nonsense, delusion and bullshit, and I'm guessing it has become torture to you as well. Why waste your precious free time?

If she can't handle your lack of church-going then, I have to say, it seems your relationship might be done.

Some people can just do their own thing and let the other person do theirs (like hardcore liberals married to hardcore Republicans). For me that would never, ever work. I have to respect the beliefs of the person I'm with, and if I lost respect for their beliefs, I'd lose respect for them as a person. Other people seem to be able to separate these things. I guess you have to decide which kind of person you are. I wish you all the luck in the world.

[Spartacus Maximus XL]

30. yes, you have mailed my thought process succinctly

It is just weird to think about possibly getting divorced over something as imaginary as leprechauns and zeus. That just doesn't make sense to me. There has to be a compromise here. But why do people cling so strongly to a belief system that they will not even consider the possibility they are wrong, or refuse to even look at the other side of the issue? That is what is frustrating to me the most

[metalbot]

37. Works both ways

It seems weird to think about possibly getting divorced over you not wanting to spend an hour a week with your wife at mass.

If my wife wanted to spend an hour a week watching a show about leprechauns, I'd be happy to sit with her. She's my wife, I love her, and I treasure the time I get to spend with her, no matter what we're doing.

[Arugula Latte]

41. It kind of depends, though.

For some people it's a fundamental issue -- whether their world view is compatible, whether they are on the same page with basic assumptions, whether they respect each other's intelligence.

Other people can compartmentalize, and it's not a big issue for them.

I'm in the former group, but others are not.

It sort of depends on where the original poster falls on the spectrum, and where his wife falls.

I had relatives divorce for a similar reason. In their case when they married they were both basically non-religious (he a bit more than she, though), but the wife went over to Nutty Fundyville in a relatively short span. The marriage just didn't work for them anymore.

[metalbot]

62. I think the world view difference is pretty fundamental

The OP describes not believing in God anymore. If that's the basic issue, it's simple. He should shut up, and go to church, because that isn't worth ruining a relationship over.

If his view of atheism is that "everything I ever believed about morality is now subject to question", then he has a serious problem, and one that he needs to resolve with his wife. That, however, is really independent of faith. Even the Catholic church allows people to disagree with them on serious issues (abortion, birth control, homosexuality) and still remain Catholic.

I think the problem here stems from the fact that the OP is a zealot. That isn't inherently a problem, as most people who convert to a new way of thinking are, whether they are religious converts or reformed addicts. The problem is with to what degree he feels his world view MUST be compatible with that of his wife. If he can't compartmentalize, that's a problem. If she can't, that's also a problem. Between the two, they need to work this out, and decide what is most important to them.

[Arugula Latte]

66. Hoo boy.

Disagree completely.

It's too bad that they aren't on the same page anymore, but that's sort of like blaming a kid for not believing in Santa when s/he reaches a certain age. Once that genie is out of the bottle, it's usually out for good.

Why should he "shut up"? A relationship based on lies is lonely and pathological.

I think he should be honest with his wife, and let the chips fall where they may. If she can't deal with a spouse who is a nonbeliever, or if he can't deal with a spouse who is a believer, then that's reality. It's too bad, but it does happen.

There are worse things than going separate ways -- for instance, staying with a partner you no longer feel close to.

[Arugula Latte]

114. Also, religion is not necessary for morality.

And, in many cases, it is a hindrance to good morality.

[PufPuf23]

126. Amen!

[Lordquinton]

138. "He should shut up, and go to church"

Read what you just said and think about it. He shouldn't have to continually compromise his own views just to appease and make things "easier" many have suggested this, but it is a bad idea, it will just build up resentment between them.

The line about how she would rather he be gay should say something about the nature of the situation.

And why is it that the non believer is always the one who has to humor the believer? never the other way around, never the Catholic saying "Hey, it's ok, there's no divine punishment for you" or anything like that?

[Capt. Obvious]

33. How do you feel when people try to convert you?

Your wife feels the same way.

[burnodo]

61. imaginary sky fairy.

Amen, brother.

[wryter2000]

115. I don't think you should have to go to church with her

You should spare her the lectures by Hitchens, Dawkins, et al., and she should spare you the church service.

I'm agnostic who attends an Episcopal church every Sunday. I'd go even if I were a confirmed atheist because I love the music, the ritual, and the fellowship. Unless the church services provide that for you, you shouldn't have to go.

[11 Bravo]

18. You sound like the atheistic version of a "subtle" fundamentalist Christian. Your wife is an adult.

It is demeaning and disrespectful for you to assume that you can oh-so-cleverly bring her around to your way of thinking via a few videos.

[Puzzledtraveller]

70. My first though too

[Nye Bevan]

19. Easy. Respect her views and ask her to respect yours,

and don't talk about religion.

[smirkymonkey]

38. That would be my advice.

It should work both ways. That would be mutually respectful.

[Chan790]

20. One of my close friends is an atheist married to a practicing Catholic.

She's only nominally Catholic though, practicing because her parents wouldn't really accept it if she were more openly agnostic. (She's certain there is a higher power but what she cannot know.) He's atheistic with a nod towards consideration of agnostic theism and an apathetic god. All four grandparents are very very Catholic...leaders in their parishes, make pilgrimages, bring communion to the infirm, donate massive amounts of time and money, leaving all their worldly possessions to Mother Church.

Mostly my friends ignore the problem...the one issue that would exist has already been resolved. They're raising any future kids as Catholics. They don't feel they have a choice...their parents will insist and if that fails indoctrinate their kids behind their backs...so they feel it's better to raise them as religious so they can explain when they're old enough that mommy and daddy are skeptical.

[BanzaiBonnie]

27. I have a spiritual belief, my husband is atheist

We don't attempt to convert one another. Respect is the key. We are curious enough to engage the subject with one another. I can totally see the atheist POV. I get it. He does not have the same experiencess that I do. He does not just tolerate my spiritual beliefs, but acknowledges that they are part of who I am, based on my own experience and make me who I am.

I left Christianity behind a long time ago, but now also claim the title because I think there's some good there. I adore the Christian Left. I also acknowledge the atrocities done in the name of religion.

Belief without questioning is foolhardy. I believe in my experiences, even if they're only inside of me. They are something.

[Spartacus Maximus XL]

31. thank you for sharing your insight

My wife also thinks that god has spoken to her and helped her with some decisions in the past. Again, I think that is pure delusion but it is impossible to argue with. At least you have left behind the nonsense of and organized religion

[Capt. Obvious]

32. Wait - you married without telling her you were an atheist?

We discussed that matter on our first date.

How the fuck could you keep that from her? Were you ashamed? Did it never come up? Did you marry within a day of meeting? Had you never been to a Catholic ritual?
I was raised Catholic, complete with the large families and I have at least 3 voodoo rituals to attend a year for the kids.

signed: an atheist married to a Catholic.

[DesertFlower]

35. i believe he said they've been married for 30 years.

sounds like his belief system changed over the years. it happens.

[mwrguy]

36. Get her to watch 'veggie tales'

backwards.

[DesertFlower]

39. my friend has a very catholic family. he

believes in a spiritual god. on thanksgiving he wouldn't say grace. there were a lot of people there including his sister's in-laws. he said "i'm not a catholic". people got upset especially his dad and then he said "i do believe in god" and they went on with dinner.

a few months ago he told me that when his parents die he'll go to the funeral, but will walk out when they start with the prayers. his father's funeral was today and i hope he didn't do that.

i don't know how to describe myself -- maybe a pagan or pantheist, but i have respect for other people's religions. if i go to someone's house and they say grace i just bow my head. i would never walk out or make a big deal.

a neighbor's mother passed a few years ago and we were invited to the memorial service. it was in a church (not catholic). the pastor went on and on about how grandma loved jesus (that's what we called her). i thought it was ridiculous -- how can you love someone you don't know, but hubby and i both behaved ourselves and sat and listened.

[kickitup]

64. This . . .

my son is an atheist and my husband is an agnostic. They both bow their heads at family functions when prayers are said. It's basic respect, and I think it's also a sign of security and being at peace with yourself and your own beliefs.

[DesertFlower]

68. i agree. nt

[CBGLuthier]

40. My wife was a Christian Scientist

a religion I have openly mocked. We will be celebrating 28 years this September and she has seen a doctor many, many times including the times that saved her life unlike her mother's which was lost to that motherfucking cult.

[JI7]

42. you were an atheist before you married her or became one after ?

if you were an atheist before you should have told her and i don't understand how you can marry someone without knowing that about someone.

but if it happened afterwards did you not have any discussions of things you were reading and thinking about which would lead you to become an atheist ?

[Spartacus Maximus XL]

44. only recently. I didn't keep her abreast with my atheist readings, hence my error

[peace13]

97. I never knew you could read your way into atheism.

That must be some strong stuff. At any rate, continue to love your wife. I have found that church is a great place to meditate and do seated yoga. If you play your cards right you come out feeling better than when you went in. Rarely do I not find a point of interest in the sermon, all be it not the point they were trying to make.

It is not necessary to alienate your wife on this issue. If however, you need a reason, it is as good as any. How is she on politics? I find a fool headed right wing gas bag hard to stomach and that would be a deal breaker. Thoughts about god and the universe....not so much.

[rug]

43. Make sure she reads Harris on profiling.

[LAGC]

96. Would you behave?

[LiberalAndProud]

45. How long did it take you to finally shrug off your religious beliefs?

For me, it was a process of many years. I understand why you want to share your enlightenment with your wife. When I relinquished my belief, I experienced a feeling of liberation, of finally being able to "see" clearly. With that came a desire to share my unveiled vision with those I love.

I have found, though, moving from faith to unbelief will never come lightly to anyone, so it's not fair to expect your wife to understand your views, let alone share them.

I am sympathetic with how ritual and dogma can set one's teeth on edge. It often has that affect on me, unfortunately. If church attendance is important to your wife and it is something you have always shared ... oh dear, what a conundrum. I have no advice.

I wish you the best of luck, though.

[Spartacus Maximus XL]

71. yes. You sum up my feelings exactly

[Uzair]

48. No, SHE handled it poorly

I have to wonder just what kind of person your wife is, and whether you ought to reconsider your marriage to her based on what you've told us here.

First of all, if she claims to be a Christian, she certainly isn't acting very Christ like. And what, exactly, is the implication about handling it better if you were gay? Is she a homophobe on top of being a hypocrite?

There's no need for you to try and convince her or introduce her or whatever. If you can't even tell her something about yourself such as this without her freaking out about it, you've got bigger problems than incompatible religious beliefs. (Or, in your case, lack of belief).

I'd say you made no mistake at all, nor did you handle anything poorly. She's the one who is in the wrong here, not you. You probably ought to be asking her for an apology.

[kickitup]

65. When my son's friend told his mother

that he was an atheist, she told him she would rather he be a drug dealer! I think people equate atheism with evil, especially in locals like mine (rural Kentucky) where atheists are either scarce or quiet. But I can't imagine saying something like that to anyone, much less my own child.

[Spartacus Maximus XL]

74. I like the way you think.

But I left out that I am a lawyer. I can be awfully dogmatic and put her on the defensive with my cross examination, she felt. I didn't realize I was doing that, but her ctiticism is valid.

[Ms. Toad]

105. And - I don't know what tone you used when speaking with her

but your post here reeks of disrespect for anyone who is infantile, gullible, powerless, etc. enough for faith to be an important part of their life.

"the whole concept of God and religion is utter nonsense"
"The God Delusion is overpowering to a person who has been indoctrinated into it since birth."

I'd suggest you start by accepting that it is important to your wife, and treating that part of her life with respect. That doesn't mean it should be off limits for discussion, but it should be a discussion among equals - not one entered into with a tone that says "you're too stupid to realize you're being played for a fool."

(And I would have the same message for a member of a couple who suddenly discovered religion, after a happy life together as atheists.)

[Apophis]

106. Agreed.

[olddots]

50. Do you feel she resents your atheism ?

She has said god speaks to her which is different than speaking to god -so she sounds pretty religious .I know as an atheist that you can't tell her you will loose your disbelief and become a believer . This will test your love if you let it but the love can be stronger than beliefs and non beliefs .

[The Straight Story]

51. From someone who has been both

Let me give you my personal advice.

I have been Buddhist, agnostic, pentecostal, baptist, Lutheran, new ager, etc over the course of my life - and yes, atheist.

Skeptical of many things but have learned to be open minded - in both politics and religion.

Didn't believe really in 'ghosts' - didn't fit any view I had from Christian to Atheist, made no sense to me (and the idea still doesn't).

Heard stories from relatives, friends, co-workers, and such of 'paranormal' type stuff. Then my mom died in 2004. So, having questions about death and such I decided to try ghost hunting and such.

Came across things that make no sense to me at all. I recently even posted a thread on Reddit about some such experiences. Heard and seen things that no matter how I try to explain them away I can't. They don't fit into 'my reality' - so I keep an open mind.

Being an atheist is fine, so is being a Christian or any other faith - but don't close your mind to experiences others have had that you have not. We don't know everything about the universe, we have only scratched the surface.

[BainsBane]

59. I like that attitude

When I lived in Brazil, people believed so strongly in what we would call the supernatural (there it was the influence of W. African religion) that things seemed possible that we dismiss outright here. My view is that our knowledge is limited, and science is limited. Therefore, it is possible that there is far more to life and death than we understand.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

52. My Catholic/Marxist wife and I (Anarchist/Buddhist) will have our 32nd Anniv. in June.

We've had some good discussions about politics and religion but our painful "We need to talk" marathons (happily long in the past and the memories of them are greeted with hilarity when recalled) didn't include those topics.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

53. I'd say, just let her be. If her religion is important to her, don't take it from her.

And don't make her read Dawkins - he has a condescending attitude that tends to gets people's hackles up. He preaches to the converted but I don't think he's very good at converting.

[Nevernose]

57. I'm an atheist with a Christian spouse

Of course, she knew before we got married, so it's a little different.

Some adjustments had to be made. I have to watch my snarky comments. Not because I think her beliefs in invisible sky wizards is a belief worthy of respect (it's insane and childish, IMO), but because I believe that SHE is worthy of respect. She's not allowed to pass any judgments on me, or sentence me to hell, or pressure me to pray or go to church.

And it works. There's a lot of mutual respect, in our actions and beliefs. She ACTS like a Christian, but never wears it on her sleeve. When her mother confronted her about my total lack of religious belief, my wife told her that I might not be a Christian, but I was a better Christian than anyone else she's ever known -- one of my proudest moments.

Have you found other real life atheists you can talk to in real life? Because having my daughter to talk to, privately, is a lifesaver sometimes. There are probably organizations of atheists or like-minded folks somewhere in your area.

[Nye Bevan]

58. One other thing.... if she is right and you are not, she will be able to gloat for all eternity

from the comfort of a fluffy cloud.

If you are right and she is not, neither of you will ever know it.

[MissB]

63. A friend is going thru marriage counseling.

Same thing, but he knew he was an atheist when he got married. So did she.

She doesn't handle it well. The (Christian) counselor is telling her that she needs to accept him, and vice versa. If she can't, then why stay married.

[Demo_Chris]

67. I have the same issue. I treat her beliefs with amused indifference...

I don't try to convert her to reality, I assume that will happen on its own given time.

[cbayer]

72. I had the same problem when I told my spouse I was an alien.

I should have slowly introduced him to some star trek episodes, but I handled it really poorly and just blurted it out over dinner one night.

[longship]

117. ROFLMAO! DUzy

Thanks for making my day.

[cbayer]

118. Howdy!

I woke up in one of those moods today.

[hrmjustin]

120. LMFAO!

[cbayer]

121. Hello Justin!

Hope you are well. I am enjoying following your posts in Religion and will be back more in about a month.

[hrmjustin]

122. Hey cbayer!

Hope all is going well! Are you still suffering from "The God Delusion" like me?

[cbayer]

123. I have been having some very interesting conversations as we visit people

on the road.

If I had to choose a label, it would be apatheist. I don't know if there is a god or gods or not and don't expect that I ever will. But it doesn't matter either way - nothing about my life would change, I don't think.

[hrmjustin]

124. When I go on the road I always collect the local newspapers and bring them home with me to see what

things are like around the nation. I hope you enjoy the rest of your trip and be safe!

[cbayer]

127. We like to stop at local eateries and talk to people from the area.

We have also had the opportunity to listen to some of the most frightening religious right radio I have ever heard, including one *sermon* in which the speaker made the biblical case that a woman should never, ever be in a position of authority over any man.



All going well. Currently off the road for a few days at a friends beautiful home on the Chesapeake.

My son gave me a St. Christopher's medal to wear. It's got St. Chris holding a surfboard and is totally unique.

[hrmjustin]

128. I remember going through Texas and listening to Christian Radio and my Jaw dropped from the stuff

they said. It explains Bush and Perry.

[tblue37]

130. Documented or not? nt

[cbayer]

131. Definitely un.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

73. If you use words like "indoctrinated" and "overpowering", of course she'll take it badly!

If you treat other people as though you are a rational thinking being and they are ignorant children in need of education, of course they will take it badly, *whether or not it's true*.

[lapislzi]

100. Hence my discomfort with the OP

Those words came up as red flags for me, as if a person was pretending to be a "militant atheist" for the purpose of sowing dissension.

As someone who grew up as a lukewarm Catholic with all the attendant ritual, I can assure you that "indoctrination" was not part of the package, nor did I ever feel "overpowered" in the sense that people recovering from other religions describe.

I didn't grow up with a bunch of bible-thumping mackerel-snappers--more like a bunch of superstitious non-questioners.

YMMV.

[joeglow3]

75. It might have more to do with asshole comments like "The God Delusion"

You have made it clear you do not respect her right or ability to come to her own conclusions. Instead, you arrogantly belittle her and look down on her. I think may have just as much to do with you exhibiting the behavior most people hate in Christians that your own conclusions.

[cbayer]

76. Exactly.

[el_bryanto]

77. Maybe you should repent and start believing in God again. I mean you don't want to go to hell,

do you?

Bryant

[darkangel218]

79. You forgot the sarcasm tag?

[el_bryanto]

81. Well I am a believer - so I think a sarcasm tag might send the wrong message. nt

[el_bryanto]

87. The OP asked the question

How do I get my wife to stop believing in God. Why isn't that equally offensive?

Can you imagine what kind of responses "My wife doesn't want to go to church with me - how do I get her to go?" would get? Why are DU atheists allowed to be militant and proud and DU Christians and other believers expected be ashamed of our condition?

Bryant

[darkangel218]

90. I didnt read the whole post, just the title.

My bad.

[lapislzi]

92. I think OP is deliberately provocative.

I don't know any atheists who act that way, regardless of their own beliefs.

Do I think believers are deluded? Yes. Do I think everybody should be an atheist? That is a more complicated question.

The short answer is "no;" the longer answer is, "yes, over time." You have to arrive at it on your own (or not!) and not by my or anyone else's agency.

"Preaching" atheism is just dumb. It wastes your time and annoys the believer.

I think the OP is fishy and is intended to poke bears.

[el_bryanto]

108. No True Atheist, eh? That must be convienent

Oh, by the way, as it turns out No True Christian would do anything immoral - so all those Christians doing bad stuff - they aren't really Christian so it doesn't count.

Consider this bear poked, incidentally.

Bryant

[lapislzi]

110. Lucky for you I'm the Gentle Ben type.

I didn't say impossible. I said unlikely. The post didn't pass the sniff test for this atheist, for a variety of reasons, some mentioned by other posters.

To me, it seems deliberately provocative--much like your response.

Why you would want to poke me when I've done nothing to you is rather puzzling.

[ScreamingMeemie]

133. The OP has inserted all the "right" buzzwords into his commentary throughout the thread.

I think the OP is full of crap to be honest about it.

[Zorra]

107. I am soooo glad I don't have that type of all pervasive fear controlling my life.

What kind of fucked up demented horrible heinous monster would cause another being to suffer terribly, torturing them by burning them in total unbearable agony, forever?

I'm not an "atheist". My beliefs are my own, and they are derived from my personal experiences with creation and existence, and I certainly would not presume to tell you, or anyone else, what you or they must believe, nor would I ever consider trying to control you or anyone else by frightening you into believing what I believe, by insisting that you were going to suffer horribly if you did not, based on information consisting of sketchy ancient rumors that someone hammered into my consciousness when I was an infant/toddler, or based in ancient tales in some old book.

You don't, you can't, scare me with your threats of eternal hell if I don't believe what you do, and I don't really think it's cool to try to do this to other DU members, either.

Best of luck to you. May all good things be yours forever, if that is what you wish for yourself.

[el_bryanto]

109. Actually I don't believe in Hell either, per se. Hell is our unwillingness to be saved.

But seemed like good language to make my point.

Bryant

[Zorra]

129. I apologize to you, Bryant.

It appears that I have underestimated your grasp of Judeo-Christian theology and metaphysics.

It appears that the church has modernized the concept of hell, or at least finally grasped the intended scriptural communication of what hell is, and changed the accepted concept of hell from that heinous superstition based place that they threatened me daily with as a toddler/child. The church is slow to change, but as new information becomes available, it does have the wherewithal to eventually adapt.

Unfortunately, largely due to 20+ centuries of pushing the concept of Dante's Inferno as hell, the church has successfully cemented and institutionalized this concept of hell into the collective consciousness of the "western world".

That's really awesome. I was forced to go a Catholic School, 5 days a week, and Mass, 6 days a week, beginning when I was 4 years old. During my 8 years there, I never once heard a nun or a priest describe hell as "our unwillingness to be saved". I did, however, hear almost daily, often while being smacked with a stick, that if I did not believe in the church, if I did not believe what the church told me, and did not do what the church told me to do, and did not remain in the good graces of the church, that I would go to this place forever:

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8).

Frankly, I can't fathom that an omniscient, omnipotent divine entity would really give two shits about most of the do's and don'ts, such as eating shellfish, folks' sexual preferences, or that S/he/Whatever would consider an individual's purposely not going to Catholic mass on Sunday "unwillingness to be saved". Rather, it would be, to my mind, logical and reasonable for an omniscient, omnipotent divine entity to intrinsically simply "know" what is in the heart of any and every individual.

I can kind of buy "unwillingness to be saved" as a type of hell, I have often thought that maybe people who deliberately and perpetually do rotten things to others create their own private nasty little hell for themselves within themselves.

Loosely, in the Hindu, Jain, Buddhist, and Sikh religions, karma is the force generated by a person's actions held in Hinduism and Buddhism to perpetuate transmigration and in its ethical consequences to determine the nature of the person's next existence. I kind of like this better than the church's concept of hell, because no one is eternally separated from the divine. Everyone keeps getting another shot at "heaven' until they "get it right". Which in reality does not appear to overtly contradict the Christian concept of hell as you seem to be expressing it.

I don't necessarily believe nor disbelieve in karma, but am simply pointing out a similarity between the concept of karma and "unwillingness to be saved" and redemption. Of course, by definition, an eternal, omniscient, omnipotent being would know from the beginning of human existence if an individual was ever going to really get it or not. If so, then what would be the point of forcing them to live this life, and only to suffer in eternal misery because they didn't ever "get it". (This is known in Christian theology as the "Doctrine of Predestination&quot . It's kind of a WTF for me, why would a Loving God let someone exist in eternal misery if they never even had a shot at "heaven" to begin with?

I am totally down with my evolving understanding of simple "Love" and "Light", in all manifestations, as my personal path; that is what works for me in my existence. I feel that maybe, in the "Overall Grand Scheme of Things", the essence of what we perceive as a good way for us to be as individuals, is the same.

Again, I sincerely apologize for underestimating you.

[darkangel218]

78. Every person is allowed to believe and worship whatever they want.

Don't talk about religion, and don't laugh when she prays.

:/

[Arugula Latte]

113. Of course they are.

It's a different matter, though, in a marriage.

In some cases the difference is a trivial matter. In other cases, it's huge.

[Pelican]

80. Aren't there stages of becoming an atheist as an adult?

One of which is where you are kind of a blowhard about it to believers?

Not being snarky, I really remember this from a while ago.

[Spartacus Maximus XL]

82. yep

[lapislzi]

95. If that happens, I missed a stage.

It's a private matter as far as I'm concerned. If poked, I'll respond, but I really don't care to discuss it, much as I don't care to discuss some of my opinions that others might consider extreme.

[lapislzi]

84. I smell something funny.

Call it a hunch.

No atheist I know (and I know lots) actively tries to "convert" a believer into a skeptic. It just doesn't happen.

Sure, if questioned, we'll present our views in a reasonable way with supporting material. We might suggest that the believer is deluded, but at the end of the day, admit that Believer is entitled to live with his/her delusion.

If you're a skeptic, you'll question things on your own. You don't need an atheist to lead you to it. You can't force someone to question what they take as an article of faith.

Something doesn't ring true in the OP.

[darkangel218]

86. The OP is not any worse than other members telling us we are going ti hell.

[el_bryanto]

88. Exactly my point - thanks for spreading it around. nt

[lapislzi]

89. I've never seen any of those.

And I've been here a long time.

Believe what you like. I won't bother you with mine if you don't bother me with yours.

[darkangel218]

91. When i first joined DU, almost a year ago, i was called a troll just because

I opened myself and was honest and sought advice while I.had a low post count lol.

Not every DU member is like you nor do they have to conform some DU model. The OP didn't offend anyone. Let them be.

[lapislzi]

93. Point taken. Not alerting, just cautious.

OP seemed (to me) to be obliquely inflammatory. These threads tend to get out of hand very quickly, and dissent is easy to sow.

[peace13]

98. I hear you.

The post could have done without the sniff test but the rest is spot on. Most people who call themselves 'atheists' don't go around trying to convince people to think like they do.

[darkangel218]

101. I agree. but even you admit that aplies to "most",

Not everyone. So far the OP is a controversial topic and attitude,nothing more.

[lapislzi]

111. More a problem with the attitude.

I'm used to controversy. Come to think of it, I'm used to attitude, too. I shouldn't be surprised when someone shows up on this forum with a big giant wooden spoon for stirring up stuff.

[FrodosPet]

142. "Mock Them! Ridicule Them!"

So says Richard Dawkins (unless someone doctored the YouTube video below) at 13:34

[FrodosPet]

141. Richard Dawkins' Reason Rally speech!

[LAGC]

146. That was an awesome event.

My Buddhist aunt/uncle and I were standing on the other side of the divider, about the same distance from the stage.

So many atheists in one place... I must admit, especially in light of the recent Boston bombings, the thought of such a "target-rich" environment made me a little nervous, not so much of potential Islamic terrorists but more so the fundie X-ian variety.

Fortunately the only thing Yahweh sent our way that day was a little rain, not even a lightning bolt to smite us heathens.

But I was prepared with a rain-coat, having seen the weather forecast, so all was well.

[Heidi]

143. There certainly is a mocking and presumptious tone about the OP, isn't there?

The OP is the first evangelistic atheist I've ever encountered.

[FrodosPet]

145. Check out the Richard Dawkins video

He is as close to an evangelistic atheist as you are likely to see.

Personally, I consider myself an agnostic. I don't KNOW that there is a God, but at the same time, I don't have any evidence that there is no God, either.

What bothers me is the contempt and mockery that Mr Dawkins clearly advocates.

[LancetChick]

85. To me that would be like being married to someone who worshiped the tooth fairy.

Ridiculous, illogical and completely foreign, not to mention utterly primitive. I was married to a Muslim-raised Middle Eastern guy whose father was a Mullah who prayed the same way he breathed... all the time. What a nice guy! I couldn't have asked for a better father-in-law. His reaction upon discovering I didn't believe in god was one of real sorrow, which I found touching, because I knew he cared. I loved that he went out of his way to find me a Koran in English. But then, I wasn't married to him. I was married to his son, who thought the notion of god was as ridiculous as I did. Belief in god or non-belief are two entirely different ways of being. How can you be married to someone and not know?

But now that you both know, it's a little like Mary Matalin and James Carville. Or me and my virulently conservative parents and sister... you just cannot discuss it because there is no way you can agree. When religious people and conservative people open their mouths about religion or politics, it ceases to be about logic, and I cannot follow. The conversation must stop or I will go insane. It's worse than being dumped in the land of Idiocracy. It doesn't mean we can't speak, it means we can't discuss religion or politics. And that's hard to do, I think, with a life partner. My parents, ok, I see them every other week, and my sister I see once a year. If you can do it with someone you see every day, then you are to be admired.

[davidpdx]

94. I agree with what people are saying above

Don't try to make her believe what you do. The both of you need to respect each other's choice to believe in what you choose. Now the only little wrinkle in this is if you have kids. That's going to be a tough one (and I won't even try to give advice, because it would be terrible).

I wasn't raised full bore Christian, but I did go to church during part of my childhood, and then again when I was an undergraduate in college. I've found myself more agnostic as I grow older. A couple of years ago for my 40th birthday my mom (who is now more gungho Christian) sent me a personal bible with my name etched on the front. My wife is Christian, but doesn't attend church. When I received it she could tell how displeased I was. I had at the time been a doctoral student for almost a year (I'm at the end of my 3rd year now) and give how important school is I hoped if she was going to get me something it would be school related. Maybe that sounds rude or selfish, but I think if I had wanted a bible I could have gotten one on my own. I felt she was telling me I needed it. Pushing religion is something that irritates me.

Sorry for the rant...

[hrmjustin]

102. "The God Delusion" I guess I am delusional as well.

Maybe you should just accept that she is a Christian and wants to be and not impose your beliefs on her.

[Deep13]

104. If she's not interested in that, why introduce her to those writers?

Christopher Hitchens, BTW. A better approach would be to explain why you no longer believe in God. And, I agree with others who say not to try to convert her.

[CrispyQ]

119. "The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark," by Carl Sagan.

I like Carl's non-judgmental way - he lets science be the guide, but the message is, question everything.

It should be required reading.

“Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality.”

“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”

more at link: http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/252618-the-demon-haunted-world-science-as-a-candle-in-the-dark

I miss Carl.

[Lordquinton]

139. If I could only rec a post

this would be it. We need another Carl, another Mr. Rogers.

[Dreamer Tatum]

125. You have a bigger problem than your disparity of beliefs

It's that you have zero respect for your spouse, as you come here seeking high-fives for a snarky, nasty attitude you think will play well.

You value the nodding heads of strangers over harmony with your spouse.

If what you're saying is true, do her a favor and leave her so she can find someone who will respect her and not go behind her back to ridicule her beliefs with strangers.

[ScreamingMeemie]

132. Thank you for posting this... so I didn't have to.

(and no readers, I don't believe in anything. I simply don't care enough either way)

[NaturalHigh]

137. +1

[cordelia]

144. + another 1

[LAGC]

148. Moral of the story, based on the overwhelming responses in this thread...

Be a good little quisling and accept your subordinate place and keep your trap shut like a good atheist.

Apologize to your wife and promise to go to church EVERY week, and then some, just to accommodate her.

She's a believer, therefore she's always right and you're always wrong. Keep your heathen opinions to yourself.

Am I leaving anything out?