What do you think of the word "unladylike"?

[redqueen]

I thought intelligent people stopped using that Madonna/whore bullshit decades ago.

Apparently not. So, would anyone like to discuss how fucked up this idea is?

[Dash87]

1. You know what I think

People still use that term? It seems fairly archaic.

[Jazzgirl]

47. LOL, every time I read your posts

I keep reading your signature line like it's part of the post and crack up every time.

[Dash87]

50. Got another! :D

[nolabear]

329. Yeah, Dash and I have had this conversation. Best or worst dig line ever!

I can't decide.

[SharonAnn]

99. They still use "gentlemanly", also. Also rather archaic.

[KittyWampus]

120. What is archaic about manners and etiquette? Not getting huffy with you. I think we have different

ideas of what the terms Lady and Gentleman mean.

For me it means manners.

[southernyankeebelle]

163. I was thinking the same thing. Did I miss something. Like you I'm just wondering.

[loyalsister]

168. Does anyone say "ungentlemanly"?

I have not heard that. To me it implies that beyond having bad manners, a woman's gender can be compromised.
Why not use the gender neutral "impolite?"

[dr.strangelove]

170. I used that term today to describe a jerk

on the train this morning who was talking on his phone loud about his sexual exploits this weekend. When describign it to soem friends at work, I said his actions were "less than gentlemanly." I use ladylike and gentlemanly all the time.

[loyalsister]

178. I have never heard it used

Maybe it's regional (probably southern) or more common in formal environments?

[LostOne4Ever]

279. I have heard it that way as well.

I have heard people say "He was no gentleman" or "That is not very lady-like."

But I live in Texas so you might be right about it being a regional thing.

[oldhippie]

180. I hear that term a lot .......

... even use it myself once in awhile. Nothing wrong with it I can see.

[MADem]

217. Absolutely. "Bill O'Reilly behaves in an ungentlemanly fashion most nights on his TV show."

I don't understand why people are so opposed to gender-specific language, and always, always, always look at it as "bad"--but only here in America.

In Europe, one cannot avoid gender-specific language. The languages themselves are gender specific. One doesn't have to say "male" this and "female" that, the word itself (conductor, doctor, teacher, for example) tells us the gender of the person without having to add any extra words.

And that's not a "bad" thing. It just is what it is--descriptive.

It's only in USA that I notice defensive attitudes about gender specific terms.

[daleanime]

227. They make it a little more 'wordy'....

"Conduct/behavior un-befitting a gentleman".

[Dash87]

210. I think "gentlemanly" is rather archaic.

It's generally fallen out of use. Not offensive, just no longer used.

[dmr]

214. I agree. I raised my son to be a gentleman.

When I took him out to dinner I'd explain that if was a gentleman, we'd go out again the next week. The little guy loved going to restaurants, so he was a young gentleman. Those are some of the most precious memories.

He's now a married man, and is still a gentleman.

I've used the term 'unladylike' too. It's about manners and self-respect.

I grew up with these terms, and I think people could use better manners and decorum; but that's me.

I have no idea what the Madonna issue is about.

[southerncrone]

232. Yes, but that has a positive connotation.

"un" has a negative connotation from the get-go.

[ScreamingMeemie]

2. I haven't really thought of it, because I haven't really heard it.

I do tease my daughter when she does something extremely awkward,"Now that wasn't very ladylike of you, was it?"

[Luminous Animal]

254. From my point of view, awkwardness is ladylike if a lady does it.

My daughter (6'2" now) was always clumsy and awkward and always a lady a girl a woman.

[ScreamingMeemie]

263. It's an inside family joke.

[Luminous Animal]

264. That's cool.

[get the red out]

3. Antiquated and useless

It doesn't even make sense. If a behavior is somehow rude, it is rude for anyone, no matter what sex they are.

[DCKit]

4. Men who don't consider women as strong, or as equals.

None of my sisters are ladylike, one of them is an extreme dyke, but the admonition is still no appropriate.

[randome]

5. I prefer unladylike behavior!

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[PeaceNikki]

6. Hate it. Who used it recently that has rekindled this discussion?

[redqueen]

12. I hesitate to say, juries are hit or miss. nt

[PeaceNikki]

19. oh, right here on DU?

blergh!!

[redqueen]

24. Look at the replies to this OP.

It seems the person who said it knew that most people here simply do not give a fuck.

[PeaceNikki]

25. *sigh*

[hootinholler]

33. I'm not sure that's entirely fair

The context you provided is a tad on the thin side.

[Major Nikon]

200. Par for the course

[Comrade Grumpy]

63. What?! Someone used a word of which you disapprove? Oh,the horror.

I'm going through all my dictionaries with a black felt marker right now.

[PeaceNikki]

153. Yeah... like FUCK!! Think of the children!!!111!!!

[muriel_volestrangler]

241. Well, we may as well post the jury results

At Mon May 20, 2013, 12:41 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

You curse way too much.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2871225

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Telling a feminist she's being unladylike is disruptive. It's obviously flamebait.

Telling any woman, anywhere, that she's being unladylike is sexist and rude.

Sexism may not be an offense in the TOS, but I am asking the jury to hide for community standards violation. We shouldn't allow racist or homophobic comments to stand and we shouldn't allow this either.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon May 20, 2013, 12:47 PM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: i was going to say leave up this ridiculously sexist so it could be properly mocked, but then I saw the alterter's word "flamebait" and remembered this is how trolling works. So, hide it and let the discussion continue without disruption.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Unless you know this is an attack on a certain group, then it might just be in fun.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Considering the possibility that this may be satirical, I vote to leave.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: Hey woolldog, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, did your head just explode?
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I think this is the kind of harmless remark that should be dealt with by ignoring the poster if someone finds it annoys them.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

For full disclosure, I was juror #5.

[ZombieHorde]

7. Cult of true womenhood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_Domesticity

[TygrBright]

125. Mental hermaphrodites, unite! n/t

[MineralMan]

8. Well, I'm distinctly unladylike.

Always have been.

[aikoaiko]

9. Depends on context. It can be a useful remark to someone who considers herself a lady...

....but behaves in crass or rude manner.

[lumberjack_jeff]

10. I'm generally not insulted by it. n/t

[Texasgal]

11. It's a

thoughtless and lazy term.

[hootinholler]

13. Seeing it used here in this context

I think it must be a slow Monday.

[eShirl]

14. "unladylike" = not under anyone's control

[snooper2]

15. Did you just call Madonna a whore!

She will mess you up!

&nofeather=True

[librechik]

16. I wish it would take a flying leap into the abyss where the word "gentlemanly" got tossed

long ago. Apparently only women are still expected to keep up the double standard while repubs can talk openly about shooting Hillary in the vagina.

[redqueen]

17. I'm sure most feminists agree. nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

191. What 'abyss' has 'gentlemanly 'been tossed into?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&gl=uk&tbm=nws&q=gentlemanly&oq=gentlemanly

Still in common use.

[Puzzledtraveller]

18. OOUUTTRRAAGGEE!!!

[smackd]

32. yeah. this. (nt)

[LanternWaste]

90. That I believe would be considered quite "ladylike".

"OOUUTTRRAAGGEE!!!"

That I believe would be considered quite "ladylike". Elegant, and with just enough of the Christian Dior Couture to keep it feminine...

I'd imagine your curtsy is spot-on, too.

[Pelican]

20. I enjoy many of the "ladylike" qualities in my wife...

However, I would say that unladylike actions refer to behavior in public.

Probably what would fall in the category of "unladylike" in modern society would likely just be in the category of vulgar. Obviously that's not for all but for the majority of the current active generation.

[el_bryanto]

21. I think it's problematic but not wholly negative

I guess it depends on what you consider ladylike qualities are - there are some that are positive - like being gracious or gentle, and others that are negative - like being submissive or subservient.

It's the same with being a gentleman - obviously it's nice to be nice and gracious and treat people respectfully - but it's bad to think you have to protect them or you should naturally be in charge based on your genitals.

Of course the term unladylike is unlikelly to be saying "You should be more gracious," and more likely to be "You should be more submissive to your betters," so that term is certainly bullshit.

Bryant

[KansDem]

22. I remember a phrase my stepfather would use to describe "unladylike" behavior...

This was some 40-45 years ago.

"Act like a lady, you get treated like a lady,
Act like a whore..."

I haven't heard this phrase since. Could this be a variation of the "Madonna/whore" assessment?

[madmom]

23. My standard repy when it was used in the past..

"I never claimed to be a lady!"

[Matariki]

26. My standard reply to that is to belch. But I don't know how to spell that.

[Cirque du So-What]

27. In usage

'ladylike' and 'gentlemanly' generally have separate sets of gender-specific rules. I'm all for abandoning both terms in favor of something more gender-neutral, like 'classy.'

[stevenleser]

56. I'm with you. Strike ladylike and gentlemanly and their negatives for classy and classless. nt

[Luminous Animal]

258. Classy assumes that you belong to a class that knows how to "behave".

The upper class have defined classy. The term does not include members of the "lower" classes.

[stevenleser]

282. Classy has nothing to do with economic class. I've seen plenty of classless rich people nt

[newfie11]

28. He'll I've been unladylike my whole life

The word means nothing to me

[cherokeeprogressive]

36. Yeah. It describes me like no other word does. n/t

[newfie11]

54. Lol I wear it proudly

[Dash87]

76. Another iPhone user.

I know, because hell always autocorrects to he'll on mine as well.

[newfie11]

123. Lol you are right

Sometimes I correct it but to lazy for this

[emulatorloo]

197. You can always turn it off in "Settings"

Settings:General:Keyboard:Auto-Correction on/off

[Dash87]

209. Thanks for the info, but I screw up far too much not to have it. I couldn't live without it!

[newfie11]

283. Same here

People would know for sure I can't spell. Now I can blame it on the phone lol

[emulatorloo]

346. Me too, LOL!

[Eleanors38]

265. Yeah, and I noticed the good-looking ones belch loudest.

[newfie11]

284. I never mastered that

But it wasn't for lack of trying

[JohnnyLib2]

29. That was extinguished in the 70s in our house.

I'm thinking the NOW meetings my wife hosted had something to do with it........

[Buzz Clik]

30. Seems like a bit of a journey from "unladylike" to "Madonna/whore"

My reaction to hearing someone calling someone unladylike is far different than hearing someone called a whore.

[redqueen]

35. These concepts are linked. This is Feminism 101 stuff.

And no, I'm not calling someone a whore.

[Buzz Clik]

45. So, if you say I'm acting in an unladylike manner, that you're actually calling me a whore?

Or, let's keep you out of this.

Let's say I observe a little girl shoving slugs up her baby brother's nose, and I suggest that doing so is unladylike. You are saying that is the equivalent of calling this child a whore?

[annabanana]

62. It implies that it is too aggressive for a lady.

So, by inference I guess.. yes.

[Buzz Clik]

64. Well, I guess I'll have to disagree.

Language can be subtle, but that's just nonsense.

[Major Nikon]

192. Only in the most remote sense

It also doesn't do much to explain why women seem to be the ones most often using the term.

The very best you can say about your association is that represents dichotomous thinking that excludes the most common offenders.

[HappyMe]

31. Well, I generally don't think

about it at all.

Not really something I consider fucked up enough to get upset over.

Lately there have been gay men getting beat up in Chelsea (NYC) because they are gay - that's fucked up. Kids going hungry - that's fucked up. The fact that the situation in the Middle East seems to worsen every day - that's fucked up.

[redqueen]

34. You should just link to Dawkins' "Dear Muslima" rant. It'd save you time. nt

[HappyMe]

39. Who the fuck is Dawkins?

[Nye Bevan]

51. The Atheist version of God (nt)

[HappyMe]

52. Okay.

Thanks.

I don't know what atheism has to do with what I said....

[sabrina 1]

281. It doesn't. You were making sense, you pointed out real issues that are worthy of

outrage. When someone does that and fails to express outrage over the use of common words, who fails to see that every other word is an insult to 'all' women, even though most strong, intelligent women could not care less about this trivia, don't expect to get a response that makes any sense.

I totally agreed with your post. I save my outrage for real issues. Someone described this kind of 'outrage' as 'first world problems'. I think that about sums it up.

There is a very tiny contingency of 'feminists' who spend a disturbing amount of time trying to elicit outrage over the use of words they claim to find 'offensive'. The list keeps growing. They will present all kinds of contorted reasons to explain to those of us who are way too busy worrying about real issues to care, WHY we are such terrible people, WHY whatever the word du jour happens to be, should be considered offensive. Some people need to feel offended and if you are not someone who has that need, you will become the enemy. It really is a phenomenon, or it is a way to make feminists look ridiculous. I can't decide which.

[Gore1FL]

77. World renown biologist, and quite brilliant.

He is also anti-religion.

Many are confused by his words and wit. Mostly, people love him or hate him, with the confused and the religious making up the majority of the second category.

[Demo_Chris]

82. So... he is a godless heathen who's going STRAIGHT to HELL!!!!

Kinda like me, only he's smarter.

[HappyMe]

88. I'm still confused about the

biologist/atheist answer to me.


Because I have a uterus and boobs I should be offended about words that other people with uterus' (uteri?) tell me to.

I'll think for myself, thanks.

[Demo_Chris]

98. Hell if I know. I figure if terms like "ladylike" are your big concerns...

Then not only is your life fucking FANTASTIC, but you are largely oblivious to the very real problems the rest of us are drowning in (such as hungry kids).

But that's just me.

[HappyMe]

102. Thanks.

Since you know about Dawkins, and even you didn't find a connection I don't feel so bad.

This is most definitely not a pressing issue.

[sufrommich]

103. What a ridiculous conclusion go make. Discussing the word ladylike

is proof that one is oblivious to other problems? Have you read some of the threads in GD?

[redqueen]

111. Remember Derailing for Dummies?

'We've got bigger problems'/'Bigger problems elsewhere' is an extremely popular tactic.

Most people see right through it. Others apparently feel it is a valid excuse for an argument.

[Demo_Chris]

132. Read EXACTLY what I wrote...

The words you see. You can discuss whatever you like, from whether the term "ladylike" is an insult all the way to which color of cat is the smartest, but if you think this bubblegum ranks up there with poverty or hungry children or violence against women you are both privileged and confused.

[sufrommich]

173. Except nobody "ranked" the word "unladylike" as

being up there with poverty or violence,nobody. You make a ridiculous statement and then argue against your own ridiculous statement.That schtick is getting old.

[LanternWaste]

304. I imagine many people lack the ability to possess concern for both the large and the small things in

I imagine many people lack the ability to possess concern for both the large and the small things in this world. I suppose that concern for hungry children denies these unfortunates the concern for illustrations of misogyny. However, if one does possess that ability and chooses to deny concern for one over the other, that's merely a choice/

But if it helps in your case, HumanKind by Tom Bernardin illustrates some pretty simple mental exercises to help expand your ability to examine more than one problem simultaneously. With some effort on your part, I think even you could do.

But like you, that's just me...

[Gore1FL]

100. Not a clue on why he was brought up.

I just know who he is!

[bettyellen]

291. calling for another round of the Opression Olympics?

[HappyMe]

292. I'm not calling for anything.

I gave as honest an opinion as a 'derailment dummie' can.

If you don't agree, that's fine. I'm not going to argue about this.

[demwing]

37. flame bait

Slow day? Need a shot of outrage in your coffee?

[MADem]

38. It is the companion to "ungentlemanly."

It is an old school word, and how it---or its companion term--- is used guides my reaction to it.

[progressoid]

147. ^ this ^

Simple and correct.

[The Straight Story]

40. It is not a very manly thing to say (nt)

[Buzz Clik]

61. "Manly" behavior is not popular with the author of the OP, either.

Sounds like a no win situation. It might be better to just get past all this bullshit.

[MADem]

267. The companion to "manly" is "womanly."

Ungentlemanly is the companion to unladylike.

[cascadiance]

338. But manly promotes the stereotype that a man needs to be "tough" and "dominant"...

... much like the "unladylike" facilitates the stereotype that a woman should be submissive and passive. So in a way, these two terms have more in common in some ways where they facilitate age old stereotypes that both sexes sometimes have to overcome to be seen as dynamic human beings.

[MADem]

340. It's just a word that describes a person's appearance or demeanor. It doesn't necessarily promote

anything.

People who use or misuse words have the power to create stereotypical imagery, but words are just words.

[cali]

41. I don't really give a flying fuck. Hardly high up on my list of things to be outraged

about.

[boston bean]

211. I'm sure you'd really appreciate a man telling you your posts are unladylike.

Wouldn't bother you in the least, right? It would just roll off you back with no retort from you?

Especially, when a guy tells you that when you are using a word to emphasize a point you point isn't considered, only your unladylike likeness is.

I'm sure it wouldn't be a care to you in the least.

[sabrina 1]

336. Wouldn't bother me in the least, in fact, I would probably take is as a compliment, or simply

continue to do whatever it was that was deemed to be unladylike, unless he was right of course.

[boston bean]

341. I can certainly believe you feel that way and would have never bothered

To write the same thing to you.

[Major Nikon]

242. This is very unladylike

[loli phabay]

306. and i will be ungentlemanly and agree

Cant believe the angst over something like this, cant say ive ever sat and fretted over the use of words before.

[Nye Bevan]

42. Depends on the context, but I don't automatically see that word as an insult.

Unladylike behavior can be lots of fun.

[MattBaggins]

71. Can men engage in unladylike behavior?

[Nye Bevan]

113. Ungentlemanly (nt)

[One_Life_To_Give]

195. If a guy bends over and everyone sees his ruffled panties then yes!

Just because one is male doesn't mean one can't be a proper Lady.

[Art_from_Ark]

273. "And when he pulls his frilly nylon panties right up tight,

he feels a ladylike follower of fashion..."

[Shrek]

43. My wife uses that term all the time

And so does my mom, now that I think about it.

Is it really that objectionable?

[RebelOne]

110. My mother also used that term all the time.

And I always hated it. She always tried to drum into my head to act like a lady.

[Luminous Animal]

260. Growing up and a "tomboy" I hated it. And, at age 55, I still don't know what the fuck

it means.

[LanternWaste]

44. In the here and now, I think it refers (colloquially at its weakest point) to any female...

In the here and now, I think it refers (colloquially at its weakest point) to any female who does not encompass the traditionally male-defined priorities of elegance, grace, propriety and manners.

That in the here and now, it is more often than not, used to call out any woman who places her own choices and her own priorities above that of what may be expected from her by men, or does not defer to men in those choices or priorities.

That is why I believe many men have no problems with it... as it is in fact, simply one additional means of the status quo to maintain that status quo.

[annabanana]

66. I think you've hit on it. . . .n/t

[NCTraveler]

171. Thank you for this post. short and excellent. nt.

[badtoworse]

46. I have no problem with the word "ladylike"

I'm OK with "gentlemanly" too. They're just words and there are more important things to worry abnout.

[sibelian]

48. It's ridiculous.

It should be thrown away, along with a whole bunch of other stupid adjectives that somehow only apply to women like "demure" and "formidable".

[Comrade Grumpy]

49. No. Do not care to discuss it. Got better things to do.

[MattBaggins]

73. You are posting on DU

apparently you do not.

[Comrade Grumpy]

84. Nor you.

But I'm actually going to do something productive now. See ya later!

[Squinch]

216. And yet, here you are...

[Paladin]

53. Archaic, should be discarded from modern usage. (nt)

[Rex]

55. I have a feeling it is used all the time around the world.

By moms toward their daughters.

[maddezmom]

59. I admit I use it with my daughter

When she belches, talks with her mouth open, puts her elbows on the table, etc. My mom used it with me as well.

[MattBaggins]

74. Do you use it with your sons if you have any?

How do you talk with your mouth closed?
What is wrong with putting your elbows on the table?

[maddezmom]

83. My son is a nonverbal and he has severe autism

So no, I don't.

[azmom]

112. The daughter I

raised to have ladylike manners turned out to be a real feminist, and an atheist. She turned out awesome in spite of me.

[maddezmom]

116. Well I believe you can be a real feminist and have manners. n/t

[azmom]

130. I think the issue

is calling good manners "ladylike". By attaching a certain demeanor to the word "lady", you are creating a box in which you believe all women should fit in to. If a woman does not fit into this box, you are saying that they are somehow less of a woman. Yes, I agree, you can be a feminist and have manners. But having manners is not "ladylike", and not having manners is not "un-ladylike". Or so says my daughter.

[MADem]

221. The companion word is "ungentlemanly."

It's ungentlemanly to eat with your mouth open or put those elbows on the table.

[MattBaggins]

248. What does it matter where ones elbows are?

[opiate69]

249. ...

http://www.raisinglemons.com/manners/14-elbow-etiquette/

Why: This manner is rooted in history according to my research. People used to eat in closer quarters. Tables were smaller or maybe they were packed in on a banquet table, but elbows took up room and they wanted to have as much space as possible. Also, people used to use tablecloths a lot more frequently, and elbows pulled at the tablecloth. Now a days, it is still a space thing- you don’t want to impose upon your neighbor- but it is also a social thing. When your elbows are on the table, your posture goes bad which makes you look tired or bored, and you literally and symbolically block out your neighbor. You are not as inviting to talk to and dinner seems to be more about the food than the company.

[MattBaggins]

251. So another dead unimportant European thing

[opiate69]

252. pretty much...

[MADem]

250. If you don't understand why it is rude, I can't help you.

Suffice it to say that decent table manners are a clue to people with regard to their upbringing. Elbows and food don't go together. You're free to pop an elbow up on the table if you're just chatting in a casual setting, but not during dinner unless you want to advertise a lack of couth.

It's not a question of wealth, either, it's simply an attention to civil behavior in public and social settings.

[MattBaggins]

253. Lol.. It's not about wealth

Stodgy.
Plenty of people don't follow such archaic and needless traditions and are very fine people.

[MADem]

266. If they're invited to a formal event, they do want this information and they want to follow it.

They don't want to be regarded as "stupid rubes" or uncouth people. It isn't a question of being "fine people," it's all about being able to move through social situations and not embarrass oneself by behaving inappropriately. George Bush was born very rich, but he was also an uncouth rube who didn't know how to behave. Barack Obama grew up in a rented apartment in Honolulu, but he knows how to conduct himself at a formal dinner.

People who don't know the basic rules of etiquette sweat the load and are ill at ease--and it shows. Some make an effort to take a crash course or copy others at the table so they don't humiliate themselves. But there's no need to NOT know--it doesn't cost a cent to learn what's appropriate, especially now, with computers. No need to attend an etiquette course, or have a mother or grannie teaching you where the fork goes, how to place the napkin, etc.

It's really not a point of pride to be unable to conduct oneself properly in polite society. It's not "archaic" to know how to behave in formal social settings. It's the mark of someone who wants to be able to interact at all levels, from casual to formal.

Of course, people do tend to set their sights according to what they believe they can achieve in life. If you don't think you will ever have any need for this information, you probably never will have any need for it. You'll never find yourself in a circumstance where you have to worry about mistaking the finger bowl for lemon soup.

[Nye Bevan]

259. Yeah. Or belching loudly. Or spitting. Who cares about this "manners" stuff? (nt)

[MattBaggins]

261. Belching isn't rude in every culture

Nor is putting your elbows on the table.

Know what is bad manners and boorish? Trying to force your cultural norms on others and judging them as uncouth for not living up to your silly expectations.

[Rex]

107. I guess I am in the minority here.

I see it all the time and never even thought about it furthering any kind of negative agenda or stereotype.

[patrice]

57. I think it's a substantial mis-identification or mis-attribution of what the traits of valid

self-pride are and, to the extent that it IS substantial, it is also damaging.

[Scout]

58. i laugh at people who think they are insulting me with it... (as in i'm NOT ladylike)

because i know they are using it to try to control my behavior, that ladies sit down, shut up, work "behind the scenes" to make "their" men think they are the ones in charge, when really it's us....

i know that "ladies" also use this term to control other women, to put them down...

i'd rather be a woman than a lady anyway.

oh, and no one is claiming, or asking you, to be "outraged" over it

[annabanana]

60. A condition I strive for daily!

I have not heard it spoken in an un-ironic way for years.

[CBGLuthier]

65. Meaningless in a Modern Society. Same goes for "Manly."

[sufrommich]

68. It's a word used to remind a woman that she's entered

Last edited Mon May 20, 2013, 02:27 PM - Edit history (1)

an arena where she doesn't belong. In the not so distant past it was used to keep women from voting. When I was a girl,that word kept a lot of girls out of sports.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

69. Apparently this thread is for you to tell us all how we should feel

I hate opening a thread under false pretenses, but at least I saw your name first so I knew the drill.

(For the record, I've never used the term in a serious manner)

[datasuspect]

93. and for attention

GLORIOUS ATTENTION!!!!!1111111

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

97. OMG, I just found the thread that spurred all this

Someone got trolled, BIG TIME. Actually, multiple people.

[hootinholler]

101. Please share then

This thread is making my scalp itchy trying to figure out WTF is going on.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

105. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2869801

Post 55 is where someone say "Heh, watch what I do here".

[azmom]

118. LOL

Think of the children.

[hootinholler]

127. Really?

About sums it up, but I think the thought process was more like Hey y'all watch this!

[opiate69]

129. LMMFAO!! That is epic!

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

185. And the lulz never stop

Someone STILL doesn't realize they were being mocked.

[opiate69]

188. lmao... wind 'em up and watch 'em go!!

[Major Nikon]

208. It would be even more so to see the alert results

Evidently history is repeating itself and GD is the new Meta

[Buzz Clik]

141. +1

[FSogol]

70. My Mom used it on my sisters all the time in the late sixties/ early seventies. It was code

Last edited Mon May 20, 2013, 03:58 PM - Edit history (1)

for "everyone can see your underwear." Of course, I haven't heard it since 1971 or so.

[onpatrol98]

72. My grandmother used the term ...

My most awesome and wonderful grandmother would use the term in a number of situations.

1) Vulgarity
2) Smoking
3) Sleeping Around
4) Sitting with your knees apart instead of together...(I have to chuckle because she would nail me on that one. I was careful not to hit her radar on the others.)
5) Being loud and/or obnoxious (in polite company)
6) Whistle (my grandfather's contribution AFTER he taught me to whistle)

--------------------------------
Keeping in mind this is the woman who taught me how to play football. Now, make no mistake...she despised these characteristics in my male cousins as well. (Except for that knees thing...). But, there was an extra admonition for us girls. That was quite "unladylike".

But, those of us raised with her tend not to be vulgar, don't smoke, sleep around, or get loud and obnoxious in polite company.

Unfortunately, I still whistle and have not mastered the knees thing.

Man, I miss my grandma...

[BuddhaGirl]

75. I strive to be unladylike every day

just ask my DH!

[RC]

78. Are you implying that a woman would act like a man?

I sometimes have a problem with unlady like behavior, too. As sometimes do I with men being ungentlemenly. Do you take exception to that description, also?
Your OP's sure are not usually very lady like, but designed to stir something up. Why is that?
Unlady like can be construed as being rude, obnoxious, brassy, cloddish, impolite, etc. Women can certainly be that. Reminds me of some DU members. Unlady like is still a good descriptor, even in the PC age.

Do you take exception to being lady like as well? How about being gentlemanly? Or are those terms too sexist for DU?

la·dy n. pl. la·dies
1. A well-mannered and considerate woman with high standards of proper behavior.
2. a. A woman regarded as proper and virtuous. b. A well-behaved young girl.
3. A woman who is the head of a household.
4. A woman, especially when spoken of or to in a polite way.
5. a. A woman to whom a man is romantically attached. b. Informal A wife.
6. Lady Chiefly British A general feminine title of nobility and other rank, specifically:
a. Used as the title for the wife or widow of a knight or baronet.
b. Used as a form of address for a marchioness, countess, viscountess, baroness, or baronetess.
c. Used as a form of address for the wife or widow of a baron.
d. Used as a courtesy title for the daughter of a duke, a marquis, or an earl. e. Used as a courtesy title for the wife of a younger son of a duke or marquis.

7. The Virgin Mary. Often used with Our.
8. Slang Cocaine. [Middle English mistress of a household from Old English hlÆfdige;See dheigh- in Indo-European Roots.]

Usage Note: Lady, a social term, is properly used as a parallel to gentleman in order to emphasize norms expected in civil society or in situations requiring civil courtesies: She is too much of a lady to tell your secrets to her friends. I believe the lady in front of the cheese counter was here before me. Used attributively together with the name of an occupational role, as in lady doctor, the word is widely regarded as condescending because of its implication that the usual person in that role is a man. When the gender of the referent is relevant, the preferred term is woman.

[Jamaal510]

79. I never really thought about it much, but

I heard one of my friends say once that it is unladylike to fart around others.

[JustAnotherGen]

80. It's very very

Fucked up.

[Demo_Chris]

81. I don't think I have heard it used other than ironically. nt

[Scuba]

85. If a woman lifts her leg and farts, I can't call her act "ungentlemanly", can I?

But that's what I'd say if a man did it. It describes rude behavior and by someone of a specific gender.

I suppose one could make a case for casting all gender-bearing words to the archaic pile, but I don't see the use of "unladylike" as being any more harmful than "ungentlemanly".

What am I missing? That it might be used for describing not rude, but "unfeminine" behavior, I suppose, like "unmanly". I would not favor its use in that context, but don't see it as a problem in the "rude" context.

In any regard, your post made me give it some thought, so that's a good thing.

[hobbit709]

86. somebody that would probably be a lot of fun to be around.

[galileoreloaded]

87. i hear it used most often when older women (boomers and lost generation)

want to slut-shame the younger ones (gen x and millennial).

apparently it strikes a cord and gets it desired effects (shrug)

[MNBrewer]

89. The same thing I think of "unmanly"

[jmg257]

91. Oh - you'll LOVE this then...

Came across this while looking for that Scott Calvin quote in The Santa Claus
"Yeah, same to you! And that's not very ladylike!"

Other then ironically, I haven't heard it much at all...

Anyway...


http://www.wikihow.com/Be-a-Ladylike-Seventh-Grader

How to Be a Ladylike Seventh Grader
Edited by Beckie <33, Bananagirl, Keyboard_Cat, Slinkster and 20 others

Article Edit Discuss Sick of being a tomboy? Tired of your mum nagging you to be more poised and polite? Or do you just want to be more ladylike? Being ladylike is a good thing - you're something the adults approve of, and you'll appear very graceful and intelligent. If you want to be lady like, this is the article for you.

If you've been a tomboy for a while and you want to change that well you start throwing out your boyish clothes and call your friends and tell them that you need help on buying girl clothes and if they will help you and you feel better afterwards and feel like a women again. And if you've got a short hair cut go to the hair dressers with your mum and get a new hair cut and have it made longer you will feel a lot...

1) Learn to speak well. Swearing a lot or talking really loudly in an accent people can hardly make out is most definitely unattractive, and not very lady like...

2)Stop swearing. It may be hard to cut out, but swearing is one of the worst things you could do if you're trying to be ladylike...
...
5) Basically, wear stuff that is clean, doesn't reveal too much, fits and suits you, and isn't too harsh. Sounds complicated but it's not. You...

[datasuspect]

92. i sit down to pee

people have told me that is unmanly.

[randome]

106. Fine. I'll confess. So do I.

I have to clean the toilets and I sure as hell don't want 'splatter' on my pants.



[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[MADem]

228. On a train, airplane or other moving conveyance, it is the gentlemanly thing to do.

It also keeps your shoes and the walls clean.

[Cleita]

94. It was something I was accused of all the time by nuns and various

female relatives. I gotta say I really resent the word. There are people who lack I guess what you would call class, but they are both male and female, rich and poor, educated and uneducated. Although I really don't care for that word either because it seems to divide people into castes.

[one_voice]

95. Do people still use that?....

I haven't heard that since my granny passed. She died 2 years ago next month at the age of 92. I think it's a generational thing. Funny thing is, she did the most 'unladylike' things.

Like drinking beer from a bottle but would only do that at home, never out at a restaurant dropping the 'f' bomb....but never in public.

She was divorced when women didn't get divorced and refused to remarry even when everyone said she should.

Odd that she would use that word but she did.

I never have used that word, probably because I'm the definition of 'unladylike' and I'm proud of it.

[cyberswede]

135. ahem...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2871225

[one_voice]

167. Oh, well...

damn, I'm really, really, really, 'unladylike' cuz boy do I curse... A LOT.

I'm going to go be embarrassed now....NOT!

They're words...I don't use them to hurt people, and that's what's important.

[Whisp]

96. I would look forward to some relic saying that to me.

Relic or a young moron.

I would fart in his/her face.

[Sissyk]

179. Now

That would be unladylike! Lol

[sinkingfeeling]

104. I'm old school. I do believe that part of the problem we have in this

society today is a lack of manners. There really are lady-like and gentleman-like behaviors. Some might say it's a question of manners. I do not like hearing cursing and vulgar words. I don't want to know what color underpants/thongs somebody is wearing. Refinement is passing away in American society. I think the term 'unladylike' has more to do with a lack of decorum than with a 'Madonna/whore' designation.

Fire away.

[Shrek]

145. +1

Most excellent.

[Throd]

109. It is a perfectly fine word. I have no issues with it.

[kestrel91316]

114. I certainly don't think the term is worthy of a profane response.

Seriously. I don't consider it sexist or offensive. And I consider myself to be a fairly rabid feminist.

[stevenleser]

119. I think the context matters, but I'm happy to give this term and its male equivalent up to help

avoid perpetuating negative gender stereotypes.

[kestrel91316]

122. I don't consider either one of them to contribute to "negative" gender stereotypes.

[KittyWampus]

117. I'm fine with it. It denotes manners and etiquette which are sorely lacking in many, many

people in our society.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

121. About the same as I think about "unGentlemanly" or "unManly".

[redqueen]

124. "Unmanly" is a bullshit sexist term as well.

I know the word ungentlemanly exists but I have never heard or seen it used.

[muriel_volestrangler]

199. Examples from current news coverage

https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&gl=uk&tbm=nws&q=ungentlemanly&oq=ungentlemanly

and, for completeness,

https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&gl=uk&tbm=nws&q=unladylike&oq=unladylike

[raccoon]

126. Most of the time, "rude" or "ill-mannered" would do. nt

[Warpy]

128. I know the last time some pickleface called me unladylike, I replied

"Fuckin' A!" and burped.

[Nye Bevan]

206. Calling you unladylike to your face was itself an ungentlemanly thing to do.

(or an unladylike thing if the pickleface was female). So they deserved what they got.

[Warpy]

225. Yeah, that was my thinking, too

[Egalitarian Thug]

131. No way, the subjugation of women is deeply ingrained through virtually every

cultural institution all over the world. Both boys and girls are indoctrinated from birth at every turn to believe all the BS. As far as I can see the only exceptions are a couple of Scandinavian nations and Iceland. It is changing, but I don't think either of us will live long enough to see significant progress.

Young American women are among the egregious offenders in my experience. I know that there are many out there that do reject the bias and are fighting against the system of patriarchy, but they are as small a minority today as we were in the 70s and are dismissed with the same methods.

[azmom]

140. So true

I see that with my daughter's friends who are high school age. It's very sad.

[redqueen]

151. Interesting.

You found the trolling hilarious and also agree with post.


Oh well. Welcome to DU.

[azmom]

166. Hi redqueen

had no idea that it was a troll. Just found the comment Think about the children hilarious. We say that at home a lot just to get a laugh. Anyways, thanks for the welcome.

[Egalitarian Thug]

169. I was not trolling at all. I was answering your comment about the Madonna/Whore complex.

I've been on your side of this issue since I was old enough to understand the words.

[redqueen]

172. No no no no, not you...

Someone else used the word in another thread, and someone linked to it in this thread. I didn't perceive that they were trolling but that's the way its interpreted by those who linked to it here.

I agree that you summed it up well in your response to my OP.

[Egalitarian Thug]

182. Thanks for clarifying, I was concerned. Well, here's another kick.

(Like you haven't had enough abuse yet)

[opiate69]

194. "like you haven't had enough abuse..."

Yeah... if only there was some quiet little corner of DU where she could continue her incessant, chicken-little vanity posts without suffering the indignity of having to deal with the hapless rubes who refuse to fawn over her oh so superior grasp of sociological issues.. such as women "pornily" posing...

[Egalitarian Thug]

196. Don't bring your shit over here. Any problem you have with Redqueen is your's.

I probably disagree with her on some points but that doesn't alter the fact that what she seems to mostly write about is true.

[opiate69]

198. I'll take it under advisement.

Last edited Tue May 21, 2013, 09:33 PM - Edit history (2)

Since you were so polite...

[Major Nikon]

234. Shit hauling...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2871400

Just sayin'

[lumberjack_jeff]

299. "over here"? Dude, it's "general discussion".

She's welcome to (and in fact regularly does) post the same topics in safe haven groups in which the response is fairly predictable.

When she posts here, she's asking for everyone's opinion.

I'm indifferent to the topic of this OP, but I'm not indifferent to the idea that people who disagree with topics in GD should shut the fuck up.

The world isn't a safe haven group.

[Egalitarian Thug]

301. Over here, as in the conversation I'm having with some else. You guys are free to piss all over

the thread to your shriveled heart's content, but we weren't talking to you, so please feel free to go away.

[lumberjack_jeff]

305. News flash: Now you are talking to me.

If you want a private conversation, use private messaging. If you want to publicly discuss ideas, expect others to discuss theirs too.

Does tolerating that dissent constitute "abuse"? No, it does not.

[Egalitarian Thug]

307. Only because you have rudely interjected yourself. There exists no device that can accurately

measure how little I care about you or your opinion of anything. You're lack of understanding and imagination have been firmly established for years, yet you insist on continually repeating demonstrations of this sad deficit.

So feel free to go back to your pathetic little he-man-women-haters clubhouse and whine to all your loser buddies about how those evil bitches and their pussified sympathizers were really, really mean to you.

[lumberjack_jeff]

308. The device you're looking for is on your screen. It's called "ignore". n/t

[Egalitarian Thug]

310. Not a chance, reading the authoritarian drivel and Reich-wing bullying that

freely spouts here is essential to the experience.

[lumberjack_jeff]

335. Good! I'm glad to hear it!

Because reading what others post is now all you can do in this thread. Temper temper!

[Iggo]

133. What do I think?

I think the response to an accusation of being unladylike should be the same as the response to an accusation of being ungentlemanly.

Specifically: "Um, yeah, fuck off."

[riqster]

134. It's a bullshit word:

People should just say "rude" or one of such if they are hacked off about behavior,

[kysrsoze]

136. Nose-picking.

[MadrasT]

137. I think it says a whole lot about the person using the word...

...and nothing at all about the person they are applying it to.

[Soundman]

138. I like it a lot! Why?

[SamKnause]

139. Unladylike you say ?

"When I'm good, I'm very good."
"But when I'm bad I'm better." Mae West

Words this female always tries to live up to.

[treestar]

142. It's Victorian

It was a class distinction, too.

[Zorra]

143. Oh, my! Your post isn't very ladylike at all!!!

I do believe I'm getting the vapors!


How do you ever expect to land a man if you behave so?

And such indelicate language! Not appropriate for a lady at all!

[Buzz Clik]

144. I was under the impression that carrying fights from one thread to another was frowned upon?

No?

Regardless, looks like a certain someone got her daily dose of undeserved attention.

[redqueen]

157. What the fuck are you talking about? What fight?

Someone used a bullshit sexist term and I thought most people understood it to be a bullshit sexist term. I figured I'd ask what the erudite and educated members of DU thought about it, if they cared to discuss it, and now I have my answer.

Thanks for repeatedly kicking it. Your doing so while also thinking that I don't "deserve" the attention is delicious irony.


Hopefully you've also been motivated to learn about what the term "Madonna/whore" actually means.

[Buzz Clik]

187. Knock it off. Your shit storm/poutfest has already been linked and documented on this thread.

Nice try.

[Major Nikon]

285. GD is the new Meta

[Major Nikon]

286. Gotta love amateur internet psychoanalysts

They can diagnose complex ailments over thousands of miles based on one word.

Too bad you didn't bother to learn it's caused by bad mothers, or I doubt you'd use the term so flippantly.

[Poll_Blind]

146. Unladylike/ungentlemanly, for me anyway, are less about gender and more...

...about ethical aspects of a person. I grew up in New Orleans and while it's true that some people may construe "ladylike" or "gentlemanly" with heavy gender inflection, in practice it was used (where I lived, anyway) to denote a person's comportment, quality of speech, behavior in regards to ethical matters and so on.

The particular place where I grew up had scads and scads of poor people and there was a lot of classism and racism. However a wealthy white man or woman could still be described as "ungentlemanly" or "unladylike" and even the poorest black person could still be described as "gentlemanly" or "ladylike", depending on their actual behavior.

It was a sort of class-related modifier and it was used to at least partially negate a person's economic class status (wealthy or not) to indicate what kind of person they actually were.

When I moved to Oregon I found there really wasn't much in the way of a distinction which was used to modify class like this. In many ways there is more of a rigid stratification up here based on economic class than there was down in New Orleans. Which is really too bad because the concept of a wealthy person being, by default, honorable, is not necessarily true. The only time I would hear any of those words would be girls or ladies sarcastically ribbing each other after, say, a belch, and laughing and accusing their friend of being "unladylike" before belching themselves.

And that's fine. And that's probably how most people, especially in North, view those words.

But the way it was used where I was born, there was a great deal more subtlety to the meaning of those words.

PB

[Whisp]

148. 'She's a Lady' by Tom Jones

"She's A Lady"

Well she's all you'd ever want,
She's the kind they'd like to flaunt and take to dinner.
Well she always knows her place.
She's got style, she's got grace, She's a winner.
She's a Lady. Whoa whoa whoa, She's a Lady.
Talkin' about that little lady, and the lady is mine.
Well she's never in the way
Always something nice to say, Oh what a blessing.
I can leave her on her own
Knowing she's okay alone, and there's no messing.
She's a lady. Whoa, whoa, whoa. She's a lady.
Talkin' about that little lady, and the lady is mine.
Well she never asks for very much and I don't refuse her.
Always treat her with respect, I never would abuse her.
What she's got is hard to find, and I don't want to lose her
Help me build a mountain from my little pile of clay. Hey, hey, hey.
Well she knows what I'm about,
She can take what I dish out, and that's not easy,
Well she knows me through and through,
She knows just what to do, and how to please me.
She's a lady. Whoa, whoa, whoa. She's a lady.
Talkin' about that little lady and the lady is mine.
Yeah yeah yeah She's a Lady
Listen to me baby, She's a Lady
Whoa whoa whoa, She's a Lady
And the Lady is mine
Yeah yeah yeah She's a Lady
Talkin about this little lady
Whoa whoa whoa whoa
Whoa and the lady is mine
Yeah yeah She's a Lady
And the Lady is mine.

oiy.

[Nay]

190. I always hated that song for its disgusting sexism. nt

[RC]

222. Tom Jones is English.

England has a different take on what a Lady is, than we do. And being a Lady not disgusting sexism.

[Nay]

244. That Tom Jones is English is irrelevant; yes, a "lady" in England can also be an upper-class

title -- so what? I doubt Tom is singing about Lords and Ladies.

I never said being a lady is disgusting sexism--I said that song is disgusting sexism.


When this song came out about 40 years ago, these phrases made me queasy even as a young girl:

"She's the kind they'd like to flaunt and take to dinner" -- sorry, don't want to be arm candy; I don't exist just to make other men envious of you to boost your ego.

"she always knows her place" -- and what place is that? Bet he's gonna tell me exactly that place, rather than realize that I'm my own person and will make my own place

"she's never in the way" -- of course not; by definition, women are never to get in men's way; men are the 1st class citizens and women the 2nd class.

"She can take what I dish out, and that's not easy" -- God knows what this means, but it's creepy.


Just my take on it, from way back in time when I first heard the song and didn't even know what sexism was.

[MADem]

268. No, he is not English.

He's Welsh. And the Welsh don't have problems with "ladies" -- or "gentlemen" either.

[marions ghost]

149. Laughable

If anybody I know says "unladylike" I KNOW they're joking...

"Unladylike" is passe.

[StrongBad]

150. I have no problem with the word

I use the concept of being a lady or ladylike in the context of describing a woman as feminine and refined.

These are qualities that I'm attracted to and look for in a partner so why not have a word to describe it?

[HockeyMom]

152. Sexist and stupid

I say this as a 64 year old woman married with 2 kids almost 40 years.

[Nye Bevan]

158. But it does have its uses occasionally, right?

Like this? http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1426433

[redqueen]

160. Wow.

*smh*
(shaking my head, I feel I should explain, because of a post being hidden for a misinterpretation of this common initialization)

[Deep13]

154. Condescending, classist, and sexist.

"Ladylike" is just a nice way of saying "learned helplessness."

That's an ideal adopted by upper middle class Europeans during Victorian times in emulation of what they thought were aristocratic values.

[Nye Bevan]

155. Oh, surely it occasionally has its uses.

Like this http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4782308&mesg_id=4782399

[cyberswede]

175. You realize it's being used ironically, right?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

186. Funny enough, it was being used ironically in this thread's case too

But don't tell the OP that.

[Squinch]

204. "Ironically" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. That wasn't irony.

[Deep13]

246. You need to have your sacrasm sensor tested. nt

[redqueen]

159. Succint and accurate. You and Egalitarian Thug summed it up well.

[Deep13]

245. thanks. nt

[Kali]

156. something a grandmother would say

if you were laughing too loud or rolling around in the grass with your underwear showing

[Common Sense Party]

161. I get the feeling you do not wish to "discuss" this idea at all.

Your mind seems pretty well made up on the issue.

[redqueen]

165. Yeah, funny how that works with progressive ideas on a progressive board.

Todd Akin's defense of his use of the word was something I thought all DUers would disagree with.

Guess I learned a thing or two today.

[Common Sense Party]

213. I highly doubt that.

"When you clench your fist, no one can put anything into your hand."

And when you close your mind, no one can plant anything there, either.

[MrSlayer]

162. Appropriate when called for.

If a female is acting uncouth or obnoxious, that's unladylike.

Think Calamity Jane in Deadwood.

http://m.

The male equivalent is ungentlemanly.

[Solly Mack]

164. Fuck that word.

[MadrasT]

174. Wow, it's fascinating watching folks get riled up and go into attack mode

over the statement/suggestion that the word "unladylike" is sexist bullshit.

[redqueen]

176. Right?

Fascinating, indeed.

[Nye Bevan]

177. Actually the people getting really riled up are the "fuck that word" posters.

"Fuck that word!" "It's fucked up!" "It's bullshit!" "Fuck off!"

Words can be powerful things, I guess.

[Solly Mack]

189. There's a difference between a dismissal and being "riled up".

Please don't assume people must be "riled up" to say/type the words "Fuck that word".

Thank you.

[Major Nikon]

203. So who exactly is getting riled up in the first place?

However you choose to describe the term, those expressing righteous indignation seem closer to it. I think that was the point.

The entire OP is little more than thinly disguised meta to begin with.

[Solly Mack]

215. You'll have to ask those who make claim that others are riled up.

As I never made the claim that anyone was riled up.

I was speaking for myself and myself only.

If you look above a few replies, you'll note I said "Fuck that word". So I was one the people using such language. Not because I was "riled up" but as a dismissal of the term and the use of the term.

[Major Nikon]

218. I understand what you mean now

It was worth mentioning that some do seem to be getting wrapped around the axle over the term and it doesn't seem to be who was alleged upthread. I do agree that yours was not the best example.

[Warren DeMontague]

270. Not nearly as fascinating as watching a thinly disguised meta thread make it into GD.

[msanthrope]

272. Veneer-thin. nt

[99Forever]

181. I think it is a wonderful word...

... with magical powers and almost divine when used.

[meow2u3]

183. It depends on how it's used

If "unladylike" is on an equal footing with "ungentlemanly", I can understand it. But if the implication is that women have to take a back seat to insecure men just to appease their egos, then I have a problem with it.

Personally, I prefer to call such behavior "ill-mannered."

[bunnies]

184. Anyone who called me "unladylike"...

would be treated with a relentless expression of just how "unladylike" I'm proud to be. I'd curtsey afterward though, so as not to offend.

[quinnox]

193. newsflash, you found another word to add to the forbidden list

Why am I not surprised.

[Nye Bevan]

219. Every edition of the Newspeak Dictionary is smaller than its predecessor..... (nt)

[Blue Owl]

201. Well behaved women rarely make history

Saw it on a bumper sticker...

[Codeine]

202. Meh. Men still have to deal with outdated views on manliness.

Honestly, my fiancee isn't very "ladylike" (curses like a sailor and could beat up most men without breaking a sweat) and I wouldn't have her any other way. Ladies are boring. I like women.

[AgingAmerican]

205. I have no problem with it whatsoever

n/t

[Nye Bevan]

207. I like to see threads like this because they demonstrate that the big battles have been won.

It's always a good sign when people start to run out of things to be outraged about.

[Riftaxe]

212. It is outrageous!

Women should never be held to civilized or polite behavior, expecting them to behave as such is an unreasonable demand by the elites of the fascist patriarchy....

It is a perfectly fine word when used appropriately.

[sufrommich]

224. "Women should never be held to civilized or polite behavior"

Jesus Christ on a stick, not one person has even hinted at that, let alone typed it.Since when does civilized or polite behavior have anything to do with be "ladylike"?

[geek tragedy]

231. Like Todd Akin did?

It is kind of funny to see people defending Akinspeak.

[geek tragedy]

220. Liberals made fun of Todd Akin when he used it.

It's generally a term used by backwards men who speak disparagingly of feminists, etc.

[RC]

237. We will never have true gender equality until

women can father children and men can give birth. Until then, using gender descriptive words is both sensible and appropriate, because we are in reality, majorly different. Vive la différence

[geek tragedy]

238. "Ladylike" is not a reference to uteruses, but rather an attempt

to reinforce gender stereotypes that are taught, not inherited.

Ergo, your point is, well, completely wrong

[cherokeeprogressive]

223. Best compliment anyone has ever paid me. n/t

[Niceguy1]

226. use it with my daughters

when they're behaving well, unladylike

[geek tragedy]

229. How quaint. nt

[msanthrope]

230. I think with 24 plus kids dead in OK, I really couldn't give a shit about this vanity post. nt

[sufrommich]

233. I was literally just reading your post in the "girls poop too"

thread before I read this one. You posted it minutes after this one,please explain how "girls poop too" is more respectful of the tragedy in Oklahoma.

[msanthrope]

236. Because there's a difference between a whine, and an attempt to lighten the mood.

The former is self-indulgence, which is always in bad taste. The latter is making fun of that self-indulgence. And the latest report is that 37 people plus are dead. Vanity, vanity...all is vanity.

[sufrommich]

239. Utter hypocritical bullshit. Pointing out that

words like "unladylike" promote stereotypes of women is not "self indulgence" or "whining" just because you say so.

[msanthrope]

240. You certainly do not have to accept my say-so. But you could be more classy with your language. nt

[bettyellen]

321. says the person chatting about poop- while wringing their hands everyone else isn't fundraising for

tornado victims while they themselves goof around.

[msanthrope]

342. I must say that I expected better from you. nt

[bettyellen]

343. I'm sorry- I just don't get people coming into threads they think are dumb to tell other people

that what they are discussing is beneath them. Why bother? I think sometimes we all discuss things of less than utmost importance- otherwise we'd have one thread, right? Different strokes for different folks.

And come on now- poop? I had to laugh.

[JNelson6563]

235. I generally go with

the term "bad manners" in the situation where one might use "unlady-like" or "ungentlemanly". Though I do use the term "lady" or "gentleman" when praising someone's good manners.

Funny how it works sometimes.

Julie

[Summer Hathaway]

243. What the fuck does it matter

who uses the term 'unladylike' and who doesn't?

And BTW, the word has nothing to do with "that Madonna/whore bullshit", except in your own extremely creative imagination. And 'intelligent' people know that.

Given your posting history, it will probably come as news to you that there are REAL issues facing women in today's society - you know, IMPORTANT things like physical abuse, unequal pay for equal work, the all-out assault on women's rights being vigorously pursued by the GOP.

The fact that you (and your contingent here) consistently concern yourselves with nonsense like using the word 'unladylike', or who opens the door for who, or who pulls a chair out for who in a restaurant, etc., makes it apparent that you have nothing of substance to contribute to what should be, and could be, productive discussion on the challenges women face on a daily basis.

Your unending fascination with the trivial is truly astounding.

[BainsBane]

256. the doors story is an invention

As someone recently said, "words have meaning," so they should be accurate.

[opiate69]

262. No.. it's not an invention...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2511386

benevolent sexism would be holding the door open, pulling out a chair, ect...

Assuming that most people here can read English, and also acknowledging that if sexism is bad, then "benevolent sexism" is a negative concept, coming from a presumably "positive" motivation. And generally speaking, if a person is asked for a definition of something, and "holding doors open for women" is the first example listed, it is typically the primary definition, and therefore penultimately important to the person providing the examples.

[Summer Hathaway]

269. Oh, really?

Seems to be a lot of discussion in these threads about "the doors" story ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022526541

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022523429

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022512182#post6

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/10022511684

And that's just what I could come up with in a few minutes.

You will find posts in those threads about the "door opening" issue, wherein several of your cohorts go into detail explaining why and when a man opening a door for a woman is a 'sexist act'.

The discussion of that topic was NOT an invention - and it's all there in black and white.

Yes, words DO have meaning. Like the word 'unladylike', for example - which we all have to be careful not to say, lest the young women comin' up have their entire lives ruined by its use.

[BainsBane]

274. Yes, there was a lot of discussion

but women didn't complain about having doors opened for them. You'll notice all those threads are people posting about some straw man complaint that no one actually made. When someone asked what benevolent sexism meant, another poster gave opening doors as an example. She never said it bothered her. It's the kind of thing people spread to sow discord.

[Summer Hathaway]

276. As I always say

words have meaning.

Your initial contention was that the "opening doors story" was an invention. Apparently it wasn't, as the links myself, and another, have provided show.

So NOW your contention is that "women didn't complain about having doors opened for them".

BS - and you know it. Many of your cohorts complained that it was 'sexist behavior' - or are you now saying that they're not bothered by what they perceive to be 'sexist behavior'?

Who's zooming who?

[BainsBane]

277. You accused the OP of complaining about men opening doors

that was factually false. Your words have meaning too. Either you care about the truth or not. That is entirely your choice.

[Summer Hathaway]

280. What I posted was

"The fact that you (and your contingent here) consistently concern yourselves with nonsense like ..."

I then went on to cite some examples of the nonsense the OP, and others here, concern themselves with.

My original post in this thread still stands. There are REAL issues facing women in today's world, and when a certain group (who insist that they are the spokespeople for all women on such topics) get into discussions about door opening, pulling chairs out for women in restaurants (another fave), etc., it is a slap in the face to those of us who think there are far more important issues for women to be concerned about, and to discuss rationally and productively.

It is apparent that the "certain group" of which I speak think it is far more important to discuss utter nonsense than what IS important - and then to further waste time 'explaining' who said what about the nonsense, and what they really meant.

If any one of the self-appointed 'feminist spokespeople' on this board spent as much time, energy and effort on dealing with those REAL problems, they'd have a lot more respect than they do now - which is pretty much zilch.

While you and your colleagues are decrying the use of the word 'unladylike' (seriously, does it get any dumber than that?), there are millions of women who are dealing with REAL challenges that directly affect their lives. And I can assure you that being called 'unladylike', or having a door opened for them, or having their chairs pulled out for them at the dinner table is the very LEAST of their concerns.

But by all means, keep on keepin' on. Keep reminding everyone how a fixation on the trivial is far more important than actual problems to be met head-on and hopefully dealt with. Keep telling everyone that the use of the word 'unladylike' is the most pressing problem today's women have to face. Keep focused on the BS that some here are so intent on wallowing in.

It all goes to prove a point - and the point is that you have NO point.

[polly7]

288. Awesome post.

When I read daily of the real suffering of women and children around the globe and come back to threads like this, it just makes me wonder who the hell has that little to worry about that a term like 'unladylike' is the source of outrage for the day. My wish is that every woman and girl in the world some day has this kind of privilege.

[Scout]

289. the only posters expressing outrage

are those who are dissing the OP.

redqueen's OP hardly rises to the level of outrage ... except for those trying to stir shit.

if you think this OP expresses outrage, well, the problem is entirely yours.

and many of us are capable of caring about and working to change "real" problems in the real world, whether we post about it on DU or not. the squawks of others here notwithstanding.

[opiate69]

298. My God...

[BainsBane]

295. Amazing people should devote so much of their own outrage

to something they consider so trivial, isn't it?

[BainsBane]

294. I see

so people are no longer individuals. They are a group that you attribute them to and bear collective guilt for something you think you might have read somewhere at some point in time.

Unladylike is exactly what the GOP calls Hillary Clinton. Yeah it matters because it is part of an ideological structure that keeps women from reaching political power. But that requires people to actually care that women have equal rights in society, that they might be president, CEOs, and hold other positions of power rather than be locked in basements.

[Summer Hathaway]

300. A group is comprised of individuals.

Surely you're not denying that there is a group here that constantly tries to make mountains out of molehills when it comes to certain issues. And use of the word 'unladylike' is just such a molehill.

"... you attribute them to and bear collective guilt for something you think you might have read somewhere at some point in time."

I don't 'think' I might have read something somewhere. I HAVE read these things, over and over, and your pretense that such discussions don't exist is rather pathetic.

"Unladylike is exactly what the GOP calls Hillary Clinton. Yeah it matters because it is part of an ideological structure that keeps women from reaching political power."

Yes, being called 'unladylike' sure has kept Hillary Clinton from reaching political power, hasn't it?

"But that requires people to actually care that women have equal rights in society ..."

Yes, it requires that people actually care about women's rights - and furthering those rights requires effort, hard work, and commitment. It also requires prioritizing what steps should be taken towards common goals.

That is why it is so mind-boggling that certain posters here consistently focus on such minutia as what words are unacceptable, or what behavior on the part of men is to be scorned as being demonstrative of sexism, 'benevolent' or otherwise.

That type of nonsense achieves absolutely nothing, other than to steer attention away from REAL issues, REAL battles that need to be fought and won, and the achievement of reaching REAL goals.

In addition, we have been told by this certain group (or its individuals, if you prefer) that they feel a need to 'educate' people on DU - and that 'education' invariably includes accepting that their bullshit about what constitutes sexism, or what words should be eliminated from our vocabularies, is the FINAL word on the topic - despite having been told that they DO NOT represent most feminists' opinions or attitudes here on DU, or in the real world.

But please continue to devote your time and energy to such trivial matters as using the word 'unladylike'. Surely things like the assault on women's reproductive rights, or the fact of unequal pay for equal work, will be eliminated the minute everyone stops using the 'wrong' terminology.

DU's self-proclaimed Feminists - Righting the Wrongs done to Women around the World, one vocabulary word at a time!

[BainsBane]

302. language is part of culture

and a manifestation of power. Michel Foucault argues that language produces subjects. Is it possible you've never read any post-modernist theory at all?

[Summer Hathaway]

314. Is it at all possible

for you to stay on topic?

So far, you have changed the subject from "the doors story is an invention" (which was proven wrong by the links provided), which led to "women didn't complain about having doors opened for them" (again disproven by the links provided), to my having "accused the OP of complaining about doors being opened", (again a clear reading of my post having disproven THAT theory), to my perception that a 'group' is a stand-alone entity that is not comprised of individuals, (as though ANY group is NOT comprised of individuals), to stating that the OP was about "INSISTING that a woman be 'ladylike'" (when the OP was CLEARLY about the USE of the word, and not about insisting on a particular behavior), to a discussion about post-modernist theory.

If you don't have anything of substance to say about the OP and the discussion it has prompted, you can just say so. Constantly changing the subject every time you are corrected, or your statements are proven to be false, leads one to believe that you actually DON'T have anything of substance to say - which comes as no surprise to anyone.

[BainsBane]

315. I'll take that as a no

It's not a change of subject. You just devoted a great deal of time to talking about the word ladylike. That is part of language, post-modernist theory examines language as a site of the production of power. It is entirely relevant to the conversation, which you would know if you had read any.

I find your excessively literal interpretation of OP's tiresome and short on insight. You take exception to any and all conceptual analysis. I find this level of combativeness in discussion a waste of energy, so I'll wish you a good night.

[Summer Hathaway]

318. It was most definitely a change of subject.

The OP was quite concise:

"What do you think of the word "unladylike"?

It had nothing to do with post-modernist theory examining language as a site of the production of power."

Nothing.

So I'll take that as a "No, I have nothing of substance to say on the topic-at-hand, so will instead talk about something else entirely."

"I find your excessively literal interpretation of OP's tiresome and short on insight."

As I always say, "words have meaning" - and if the OP's words lack meaning based on their literal interpretation, perhaps you should bring that up with the OP, instead of the people who responded to WHAT SHE SAID, as opposed to what you want everyone to believe she said.

Yes, I have spent a great deal of time talking about the word 'ladylike' - I don't know why I would do that, other than the fact that the OP was ABOUT the word 'ladylike'. I should have realized that what the OP was REALLY about was something else entirely, and required 'conceptual analysis" to be understood.

Giant fail there, BB. The OP says what it says. The fact that you can't address words as written, but have a need to change those words into something else entirely, is a pathetic excuse for having nothing of value to say.

[BainsBane]

303. also, I believe you are mistaken in thinking

they are separate. To insist a woman be ladylike is to mean she should not be a strong leader, a president or a CEO. Women or any subaltern group are kept down because of economic, legal, and cultural factors. They are interrelated, and language is a manifestation of power.

I don't place the same emphasis on many things I see posted on this site. I, for example, don't place a high priority on Social Security vs. some other issues, but I understand that others have different priorities. I don't expect everyone to think exactly like I do in order to not be subject to venomous disdain. In terms of women's issues, I am far more concerned with rape, rape apologists, and those who oppose non-discriminatory workplaces than other feminists whose priorities may differ from my own. I believe attacking other feminists for their priorities is destructive, and I will not engage in it, no more than I will attack other democrats who focus more on SS for the elderly than programs for the poor. When something doesn't interest me, I simply skip by the thread. I find it ironic you would devote so much energy to something you consider so trivial.

[Summer Hathaway]

312. "To insist a woman be ladylike ...

... is to mean she should not be a strong leader, a president or a CEO."

A woman is free to project whatever image she chooses for herself, and to define that image as she sees fit. What one woman considers to be 'ladylike' behavior may differ vastly from another's view - unless, of course, 'the group' is drawing up a list of dos and don'ts for what constitutes 'ladylike behavior', which wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Go back and read the OP:

"What do you think of the word "unladylike"? I thought intelligent people stopped using that Madonna/whore bullshit decades ago. Apparently not. So, would anyone like to discuss how fucked up this idea is?"

The OP was about the WORD "unladylike", and its usage. It said nothing about "insisting that a woman BE "ladylike" - although it did go on to equate use of the word with "that Madonna/whore bullshit", which is beyond laughable.

I have known many women who are CEOs, who are recognized as being "strong leaders", who own their own multi-million dollar businesses. If asked, I'm sure most people (men and women alike) would describe their professional behavior as 'ladylike'. I say "if asked", because this great bugaboo of a word, 'ladylike', is pretty much a non issue anyway.

The fact is that none of these women are considered poor candidates for their positions or further achievement because they are perceived as 'ladylike' - any more than men are considered poor candidates for leadership roles on the basis that their behavior is perceived as 'gentlemanly'.

"I, for example, don't place a high priority on Social Security vs. some other issues, but I understand that others have different priorities."

I think that can be applied to most DUers - priorities can be different for all of us, on DU and in real life. But there IS a vast difference between choosing among the priorities that one feels are important, and choosing between a productive course of action and utterly ridiculous nonsense - like eliminating certain words or phrases from conversation.

Again, it's mountains and molehills. And a certain contingent here prefer to spend their time trying to turn those molehills into something of substance, rather than address concerns that really ARE substantive.

Right now, there are pregnant rape victims in our country who are facing the possibility that their rapist can successfully claim parental rights, and have access to the child they caused to be conceived as the result of a violent act. There are battered women living in shelters, hoping to keep themselves and their children safe from an abusive spouse. There are women who are victimized in the workplace by being expected to do a "man's job" equally as well, but for less pay. There are women who live, with their children, in poverty because they can't get a dead-beat husband/dad to pay support, despite the fact that he has the financial means to do so. There are women who are being denied their right to affordable contraception, and an abortion when THEY deem it necessary.

Do you honestly believe that these women, and women in like circumstances, are the least bit concerned with whether the word 'ladylike' should be deemed unacceptable? Do you really think THEY believe that eliminating certain words or certain phrases from our collective vocabulary will improve their circumstances? REALLY?

Language is important; words carry weight. And a woman (or man) carrying a placard at a protest that says I DEMAND equal rights! carries a lot more weight than a sign saying I DEMAND to not be called 'unladylike'!.

But do as you will. If you truly believe that eliminating certain words from our discourse as citizens actually accomplishes anything, or furthers the cause of women's rights, have at it.
I'm sure your colleagues will pat you on the back and tell you how proud they are that you are willing to stand up for your fellow women by ranting endlessly about words, instead of concerning yourself with actions that might actually make a difference.

[BainsBane]

313. Sounds to me like you have some important issues

for an OP. I can't imagine why you instead choose to spend your time talking about something you consider so trivial.

Language and behavior go together. It is not either-or. Calling people by racial epithets and invoking racial stereotypes was and is accompanied by more systemic discrimination and even racially motivated violence. The same is true about language about women. Ladylike is indicative of a traditional mindset, an idea premised on a notion that women should behave a certain way--a that is inferior. No one (at least not me or the OP) is telling women how to behave, no one but you. You are angry that someone cares about something you consider trivial, so angry that you have exerted energy on that rather than the pregnant women you mention above. That seems a contradiction to me.

[Summer Hathaway]

316. I am concerned

as are many of us here, about the women whose circumstances I've described.

That's why we don't waste our time, or anyone else's, carrying on about what WORDS should be eliminated from our vocabularies as opposed to what ACTIONS are necessary to address real concerns.

"Ladylike is indicative of a traditional mindset, an idea premised in a notion that women should behave a certain way, and that is way that is inferior."

Exactly WHO decided that the word 'ladylike' is meant to render a woman 'inferior'? I think Obama conducts himself in a 'gentlemanly' way - does that mean I think he is inferior? On the contrary, I believe his ability to act as a gentleman in the face of what the GOP throws at him, on a daily basis, speaks to his strength, not his inferiority.

"Calling people by racial epithets and invoking racial stereotypes was and is accompanied by more systemic discrimination and even racially motivated violence."

You want to go there? Okay, let's.

Reading the constant complaints from the self-appointed 'feminists' on this board about the need to eliminate certain words and phrases from our discourse is as inane as a civil rights worker, going to Mississippi in the sixties to register black voters, seeing people black people kidnapped, tortured and murdered, their churches, schools and homes being burned to the ground, the lives of their children being threatened, and coming out of it saying, "You know, I heard black adult men being addressed as 'boy' and THAT is the real problem here. Once we address the language being used, all will be well."

I DO see such nonsense as being trivial in the great scheme of things. What I DON'T see as trivial is self-appointed spokespeople for women's rights on this site insisting that THEY are indeed the be-all and end-all where women's rights are concerned, and that using words like 'ladylike' have any influence on eliminating the REAL challenges that women are forced to overcome.

But as I've said before, you are completely free to attempt to make yet another molehill into a mountain, while ignoring the real issues.

[bettyellen]

319. but you do very consistently "waste your time" - and ours- on telling people their interest in

customs or language (you know- culture?) is trivial. Why so obsessed with telling people they shouldn't have interest- in feminism specifically? Do you go into threads about kittens or baseball and spend an hour or so to tell everyone else they are wasting your time?

[Summer Hathaway]

322. Please point out

where I have ever told anyone that their interest in language or culture is trivial.

While you're at it, please point out where I have ever told anyone that they shouldn't have an interest in feminism.

Oh, that's right - I never did tell anyone any such thing. And the fact that you are insinuating that I did, without any proof to back up your assertions, is demonstrative of just how low you are willing to sink when cornered.

I'll be here all night - ready and waiting for you to post the links to my saying anything remotely close to what you are insisting I have said.

Take your time. Use a DU search, or Google - or whatever other means you have at your disposal.

I'll be waiting ...

[bettyellen]

323. "You'll be waiting" proof you waste your time... and berating others who are discussing language or

customs, you really need a link? Just scroll up a few posts, LOL. It's your SOLE contribution to this thread, among others.

[Summer Hathaway]

324. You made the accusation.

So I'm asking you, again, to back it up.

Where did I tell anyone that their interest in customs or language is trivial, or that they shouldn't have an interest in feminism?

I do note that the accusation has now been changed to be "berating others who are discussing language or customs" - a bit of the ol' BB ploy there, changing the topic when you can't back up what you originally said.

Still waiting.

[bettyellen]

325. change the topic? oh no, sweetheart it's ALL about how you waste loads of time

like right now, you're hoping for links when the posts are right here, in this thread, LOL.
OMG, get a thesaurus before you accuse someone of changing the subject again, bless your heart!

[Summer Hathaway]

326. Still waiting.

If the posts wherein I told people that "their interest in customs or language is trivial," or that "people shouldn't have an interest in feminism" are readily available in this thread, you shouldn't have any problem linking to them.

[bettyellen]

330. Cool, you stay there in this "trivial thread, and I'll be right back.

Not really. But it appears you feel like loitering here, so what the hell.

[Summer Hathaway]

334. In other words ...

you can't back up your accusations.

YOUR WORDS: "You consistently "waste your time" - and ours- on telling people their interest in
customs or language (you know- culture?) is trivial. Why so obsessed with telling people they shouldn't have interest- in feminism specifically?"

Upon being invited to support the accusation that I "consistently tell people their interest in customs or language is trivial", or that I have told people that they "shouldn't have an interest in feminism", you cannot come up with a single statement by way of example - even though, according to you, the links to support your assertions are right here in this very thread.

A word of advice: If you are going to accuse someone of making statements - and making them 'consistently' no less - you should be damned sure you can back up what you've said with more than your usual LOL! I don't have to prove it, nah-ne-nah BS.

When you make such accusations, and then back off when cornered, it leads people to believe you're just a liar, who will say anything to supposedly make a point - even if that point is based not on the truth, but on whatever unsubstantiated bullshit you've decided to pull out of your own posterior.

I'm just happy that your accusations - and your complete failure to be able to prove them - are here in black-and-white, for everyone to see.

And that swooshing sound you are hearing right about now - that's the sound of whatever was left of your credibility being flushed down the toilet.

[bettyellen]

293. Exactly- and it is not as if this wasn't explained clearly and directly before, yet the BS continues

[HiPointDem]

247. I don't think about it at all. I don't give a shit about such trivial crap.

[sabrina 1]

339. Me neither, I wish I had the time to waste on trivia like this, not to mention that I have zero

problem with the word. I am definitely fascinated by people who seem to spend their time searching for reasons to be outraged when there are so many actual outrages to be concerned about.

[LittleBlue]

255. I don't mind it really

The word "ungentlemanly" seems to be the male equivalent. My grandma used that one on me and made me feel bad lol

Manners are still important even if MTV and the Kardashians say otherwise. I haven't heard it used for sexual shaming in my lifetime, but it was in the past and that's wrong.

[MannyGoldstein]

257. HUGE fan

of the behavior.

Word is fine if used for amusement, but otherwise not.

[Warren DeMontague]

271. dare I sayeth, I think yon internete posteur may have used said particular phraseage in an effort

to yanke thine chain a smidgen.


But, I could be wrong-eee.

[Spider Jerusalem]

275. I find it condescending and dismissive.

The idea that there's a specific standard of "feminine" behaviour that women should adhere to...that they should be demure (which implies in itself a sort of submissive behaviour)...is nothing more or less than reinforcement of traditional gender stereotypes; of course, there's another layer of insult there, that involves connotations of breeding and social class (contrast with "ungentlemanly", which one almost never hears used of a man, anymore).

[davidn3600]

278. What about "unmanly"

Everyone wants to bash men for having certain expectations with how women should act...

But dont pretend that women dont have certain expectations with how men should act.

This goes both ways.

[sinkingfeeling]

287. "Unmanly" isn't the equivalent of "unladylike". That would be "Ungentlemanly".

Both of those are in regard to manners and actions.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

296. don't forget the bitch/slut dichotomy ... this one seems more prevalent to me lately...

maybe age is a factor ...

[me b zola]

297. Many, if not most of my sheroes have behaved most "unlady-like"

I hate the term, for it seems to be meant as a way to keep women "in their place". I don't care for anyone to dictate to me how loud, course, or oppositional I should be because of my gender (or any other status that I hold).

[alp227]

317. Said it better than i could.

I say "Gentlemanly" and "Lady like" have got to go to the dustbin of English language. They belong in the Victorian era not the modern world.

[cherokeeprogressive]

320. This reminds me about the Jim Morrison story...

On one occasion, he harangued an older woman sitting next to him on a bus, reducing her to tears, repeatedly demanding, "What do you think of elephants?"

http://forum.johndensmore.com/index.php?showtopic=2348

[pinboy3niner]

327. What needs to be discussed here?

Your thinking is spot on. It's fucked up.

[Newest Reality]

328. Oh, just for the fun of it,

let's pretend that colloquialisms are not subject to rapidly changing and manipulated re-treads on words that had obvious meanings in their context prior to social engineering by way of the manipulation of verbal symbols.

Most of us know that means to be rather polite an proper in a social situation, to speak in the most general sense. To be a gentleman has the same connotation. Gentle as opposed to rude, brutish, violent, etc. That's not necessarily a cultural device since being kind and good to others is a way to get along and can be a benefit to the person who ascribes to that way of being.

If ladylike and being a gentleman are not mutually inclusive correlatives for acting "civilized" in a previously gender-oriented way of relating them, then we are probably on some sexism agenda and charges will be made with sentencing to follow.

It really is not hard to see the context of words and gender as it changes, (more rapidly so that you can hardly keep up) over time.

Otherwise, that's entertainment!!!!

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

331. I tell my cat she's being unladylike

when she sits with one leg behind her head and licks her personal parts.

[truebrit71]

332. That's the female version of "uppity" right?

And it too belongs in the distant past...

[Agnosticsherbet]

333. Perfectly good word, in Victorian literature, and acceptable until 1966.

I would call it outdated rather than fucked up because it implies an antiquated world view.

The word is ripe for redefining.
In my opinion, women like HIllary Clinton are Ladylike, being assertive women who demand to be treated equally and respected for their abilities. Anjolina Jolie is lady like.

Michelle Bachman, unladylike.

[Jasana]

337. I know a lot of older people who use that word...

but as a younger woman I say, "Fuck you!" to that word and if someone ever called one of my posts unladylike I'd probably stick my head in their PM and say "I'll get you my pretty... and your little dog too."

That was how I responded to my management when I found out they were calling me (a Chief Steward) "The Wicked Witch of the West" behind my back.

I tend to find most people use the word unladylike to slap a woman down... especially when she's doing a good job. At least that's been my experience.

[Beacool]

344. It's still being used against strong women.

Inhofe basically called Hillary unladylike recently.

“I think that she has gotten by with that type of a forceful attitude, something that’s not normally accustomed — that you don’t hear from women as much as you do men. And she came out so forcefully, and you could tell that it was orchestrated at the time that she said it,” Inhofe said in an interview Thursday on “The Rusty Humphries Show.”

There are some men who feel threatened by accomplished women, particularly if they are powerful and don't fit their perceived notion of how a woman should behave. A way to attempt to bring them down a notch is to question their femininity. Thus the insults hurled at women about their looks, sexual mores and accusations of lesbianism.

In other words, insecure men want women who are intellectually lesser than they are. They can't handle an equal partnership. Smart women used to be told to pretend not to be so intelligent or they would scare men away.

[rrneck]

345. It's a word. Like table or rutabaga. nt