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boston bean

(36,221 posts)
Mon May 20, 2013, 07:49 PM May 2013

Why can't they build a hill and then put a shelter below it?

I'm not an engineer, but if you can't dig down, seems you could build up and then underneath.

Anyone, know?

I live in massachusetts where almost every home has a basement.

72 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Why can't they build a hill and then put a shelter below it? (Original Post) boston bean May 2013 OP
Maybe one in each neighborhood? Marrah_G May 2013 #1
expense? I dunno quinnox May 2013 #2
Eggzactly...most homes in OK have either basements or shelters angstlessk May 2013 #3
One report said the elementary school had a basement, but it was not designed as a shelter JPZenger May 2013 #71
Many homes in OK don't have basements The Velveteen Ocelot May 2013 #4
They should be mandated to have underground shelters in tornado alleys. boston bean May 2013 #6
Yep. There should be federal funding for shelters in schools in tornado areas. Lone_Star_Dem May 2013 #14
We cannot have basements here Texasgal May 2013 #30
and no need to pour a foundation below "the frost line" Kolesar May 2013 #51
You can bet that if they wanted to put a hotel or casino there, with a sub basement, they could RC May 2013 #52
maybe so Texasgal May 2013 #53
When I was a kid in Missouri justiceischeap May 2013 #5
There are ways. silverweb May 2013 #7
The school hallways are built to withstand a pretty strong tornado Horse with no Name May 2013 #8
Sad thing is, everyone knows underground shelters are boston bean May 2013 #10
I agree BUT Horse with no Name May 2013 #13
That is why it needs to be mandated somehow. boston bean May 2013 #17
I agree Horse with no Name May 2013 #21
To clarify, you are talking people who often don't have money for added taxes. nt Demo_Chris May 2013 #23
I disagree. n/t Horse with no Name May 2013 #24
With what? That people in many areas of the south are poor? Demo_Chris May 2013 #26
This is tea party talk Horse with no Name May 2013 #28
Get a grip, do some math, and save the Tea Party BS Demo_Chris May 2013 #31
Back off Horse with no Name May 2013 #32
Yeah, I live here too. In fact, until 10 minutes ago it looked like my town would be next Demo_Chris May 2013 #36
If they unified the school districts Horse with no Name May 2013 #39
I agree with you on the salaries... Demo_Chris May 2013 #42
One of the schools was in a congressman's neighborhood LeftInTX May 2013 #49
To clarify, the federal government should be paying for this, not just the local residents. boston bean May 2013 #25
I agree, but... Demo_Chris May 2013 #29
We could fund them Horse with no Name May 2013 #34
I'm sure you get the point I was making. It's fucking sad isn't it. nt Demo_Chris May 2013 #44
This we can agree on. Horse with no Name May 2013 #46
you as well. nt Demo_Chris May 2013 #50
In an F5 tornado, or an F6, which this one might be: Zoeisright May 2013 #48
That's how my brothers elemetary school in Nebraska was. One side of the school was underground, okaawhatever May 2013 #9
One of the schools in my county tried doing that back in the 90s... TheMightyFavog May 2013 #11
Just the shelter, not the entire school. boston bean May 2013 #15
They don't have basements in lots of Southern states BainsBane May 2013 #12
It has to do with the geology of the southern coasts: kentauros May 2013 #16
Thanks for the explanation BainsBane May 2013 #18
The ground is Austin is hard due to all the limestone. kentauros May 2013 #20
There's a good reason for why "massachusetts, where almost every home has a basement." kentauros May 2013 #19
You know we call them sellas right? boston bean May 2013 #22
No, but I can guess that's your colloquialism for kentauros May 2013 #27
Yup Marrah_G May 2013 #69
Which is back to its original purposes: living space and/or storage ;) kentauros May 2013 #72
I live in Connecticut. Almost everyone has some sort of basement. Jennicut May 2013 #59
My family lived in Connecticut in the late 1960s for a couple of years. kentauros May 2013 #61
Why don't they build homes that can withstand severe weather? MADem May 2013 #33
I had a similar idea -- why couldn't one or more of the hallways in every school be constructed Nay May 2013 #54
Get Guamanians to come to USA and build the schools! MADem May 2013 #60
almost nothing (except for underground) can survive F4-F6 tornadoes JCMach1 May 2013 #57
Not even a concrete egg surrounded by earthern berm? MADem May 2013 #58
maybe, but I still would not want to be above ground in such a powerful storm JCMach1 May 2013 #62
I've been in typhoons in the far east that went on for DAYS. MADem May 2013 #66
An 8 inch thick reinforced concrete structure most certainly would survive above ground. Hassin Bin Sober May 2013 #64
this is what can happen at just 135MPH JCMach1 May 2013 #65
You are confusing un-reinforced masonry (brick) with reinforced concrete. Hassin Bin Sober May 2013 #67
Bedrock... nadinbrzezinski May 2013 #35
I'm reading all this about hard ground... Bigmack May 2013 #37
I imagine some kind of shelters will now be built MNBrewer May 2013 #38
Build up the soil and place the shelter underneath that. boston bean May 2013 #40
I guess basements would be a bad idea, as some of the kids who died at one of the schools drowned, MNBrewer May 2013 #41
Im not suggesting a basement below the water table. I am suggesting boston bean May 2013 #45
I understand :) MNBrewer May 2013 #47
I remember a Twilight Zone episode about this loyalsister May 2013 #43
Concrete and steel would work well too. Can't take much room for 100 kids. nt piedmont May 2013 #55
They don't want to PAY for basements, that's the difference JCMach1 May 2013 #56
I suppose they'd rather rely on prayers and Gawd's blessings. kestrel91316 May 2013 #63
Yeah you sure got us pegged buddy CBGLuthier May 2013 #68
How would you do this? titaniumsalute May 2013 #70

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
1. Maybe one in each neighborhood?
Mon May 20, 2013, 07:50 PM
May 2013

I'd rather we spend our taxes on that then building more military crap that we don't need.

 

quinnox

(20,600 posts)
2. expense? I dunno
Mon May 20, 2013, 07:51 PM
May 2013

Don't they have a "safe" basement zone in schools built to withstand tornadoes in those places? This tragic event makes one wonder.

angstlessk

(11,862 posts)
3. Eggzactly...most homes in OK have either basements or shelters
Mon May 20, 2013, 07:53 PM
May 2013

It seems a school should have that also...

JPZenger

(6,819 posts)
71. One report said the elementary school had a basement, but it was not designed as a shelter
Tue May 21, 2013, 09:16 AM
May 2013

Apparently, a number of kids died in the basement.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,683 posts)
4. Many homes in OK don't have basements
Mon May 20, 2013, 07:54 PM
May 2013

because the water table is high in some places, and the soil in many areas is hard clay which is hard to excavate.

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
6. They should be mandated to have underground shelters in tornado alleys.
Mon May 20, 2013, 07:58 PM
May 2013

Seems it should be required and the federal govt should foot the bill. At all public schools.

Lone_Star_Dem

(28,158 posts)
14. Yep. There should be federal funding for shelters in schools in tornado areas.
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:07 PM
May 2013

Period. This is just common sense. Instead we're constantly defending education and wasting money on wars for profit.

Texasgal

(17,045 posts)
30. We cannot have basements here
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:29 PM
May 2013

although we do have storm shelter rooms in schools.

We are on limestone, there is no dirt.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
52. You can bet that if they wanted to put a hotel or casino there, with a sub basement, they could
Mon May 20, 2013, 09:57 PM
May 2013

do it quickly and easily and for reasonable cost.

justiceischeap

(14,040 posts)
5. When I was a kid in Missouri
Mon May 20, 2013, 07:56 PM
May 2013

we always had fallout shelters in our schools. We'd have to go into the basement and duck and cover for tornado's and nuclear bomb drills. I don't think they build those into newer schools, though you'd think they would in tornado prone areas.

silverweb

(16,402 posts)
7. There are ways.
Mon May 20, 2013, 07:58 PM
May 2013

[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]They all cost money.

I don't know if your idea would work, but I would think it's feasible in at least some areas.

Areas with high water tables require basements with waterproofing and sump pumps. Areas with bedrock require blasting. In high-risk areas, just DO it.

If individual homes can't all have secure tornado shelters, public buildings should be required to have them and should be accessible to everyone during tornado alerts.

Unfortunately, safety and preparedness have always taken a back seat to budgets.

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
10. Sad thing is, everyone knows underground shelters are
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:04 PM
May 2013

The safest by a long shot. At public schools in tornado prone areas they should be mandated. Mandated by the federal government with US tax payers footing the bill.

Horse with no Name

(33,956 posts)
13. I agree BUT
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:06 PM
May 2013

you are talking about people who don't like to pay a lot of taxes...

And that isn't taking a shot at them. I live in this area and bond issues die on the ballot.

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
17. That is why it needs to be mandated somehow.
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:10 PM
May 2013

Babies shouldn't be dying when we know the best way to survive these events. I know we are on the same side. I guess people with money sickness, like tea party zealots make me sick. The are immoral, IMHO.

Horse with no Name

(33,956 posts)
21. I agree
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:16 PM
May 2013

The damages to these types of events should be limited to property loss.

What good is all the information and technology that we have if we have to leave our children as sitting ducks with nowhere to go if they happen to get in the path of a monster like this? For no other reason than we don't want to pay enough in taxes to keep them safe?

It is immoral.

Our schools should be secured and safer than any other building in the country. Each and every school. Parents should know when they drop off their kids in the morning that they will be able to pick them up at the end of the day...and not have to identify their remains when, and if, they are found.


Horse with no Name

(33,956 posts)
28. This is tea party talk
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:27 PM
May 2013

I'm sorry...but people can afford to pay a few extra dollars on their taxes over a few years so their kids can be safe.

Yes there is poverty but the ones in poverty generally don't pay homeowners taxes.

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
31. Get a grip, do some math, and save the Tea Party BS
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:34 PM
May 2013

Get back to me when you can figure out how some town with 5000 people and a half dozen or more schools can pay for a half dozen multi-million dollar mass occupancy storm bunkers. Good grief, do you think people in the South don't care about their kids? You think they are stupid?

Horse with no Name

(33,956 posts)
32. Back off
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:38 PM
May 2013

I live in this area and I guarantee that the people don't want to pay taxes to improve the schools.

They shrink the school districts so you have 4 school districts in a 20 mile radius with 200 students each to minimize the taxable property.

Don't get all indignant when you come and spout the no-taxes mantra that the teabillies love. I know better.

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
36. Yeah, I live here too. In fact, until 10 minutes ago it looked like my town would be next
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:45 PM
May 2013

We were waiting to jump in the car and head south. Fortunately the storm heading my way has shifted north into Oklahoma so for now I'm good.

In any case I posed the challenge. DO THE MATH. Post it here and make your case. How much would it cost per year per person, in a town with 5000 people and a half dozen schools all needing multi-million dollar mass occupancy storm shelters.

Horse with no Name

(33,956 posts)
39. If they unified the school districts
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:49 PM
May 2013

turned all of the land in between to taxable property for schools--eliminate the 6-figure salaries of all of the school hierarchy in their own little fiefdoms--the money is there. But not when you have apologists for those that refuse to pay school taxes.

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
42. I agree with you on the salaries...
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:59 PM
May 2013

But I am just trying to keep this discussion grounded in the possible. For example, let's assume this storm shelter system in our mythical 5000 person town only cost 20 million installed. That's about 12,000 per family plus interest -- so an extra seven or eight hundred a year, for twenty years, for a shelter system that will almost certainly never be used. You are talking about basically doubling property taxes, and that doesn't cover maintaining the things.

I think there are probably better answers.

EDIT: I apologize if I came across as a dickhead. Kind of a stressful day so far.

LeftInTX

(25,300 posts)
49. One of the schools was in a congressman's neighborhood
Mon May 20, 2013, 09:13 PM
May 2013

I don't get the impression that it's poor.

I know a lot of rich people who don't want to pay one penny of taxes. They will protest any infrastructure project around here.

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
25. To clarify, the federal government should be paying for this, not just the local residents.
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:20 PM
May 2013

It's a national tragedy that can be prevented.

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
29. I agree, but...
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:27 PM
May 2013

We apparently cannot manage to fund free school lunches -- the main meal of the day for millions of poor children. We cannot manage to pay for that, and you think we can fund a hundreds of thousands of massive storm shelters?

Horse with no Name

(33,956 posts)
34. We could fund them
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:44 PM
May 2013

the republicans choose not to.

There is a huge difference in willfully withholding necessary tax dollars and just not having the money. The problem is the former, not the latter.

Zoeisright

(8,339 posts)
48. In an F5 tornado, or an F6, which this one might be:
Mon May 20, 2013, 09:04 PM
May 2013

the ONLY way to survive is underground. Any houses rebuilt after the last four tornadoes hit that town in the last 15 years should have had underground shelter.

But I wouldn't expect much in the way of common sense zoning ordinances in Oklahoma.

okaawhatever

(9,461 posts)
9. That's how my brothers elemetary school in Nebraska was. One side of the school was underground,
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:03 PM
May 2013

like on a hill and then the other side was where the windows were. Now though, with so much advance notice I think most schools let out. That may be why there isn't the precautions like before.

TheMightyFavog

(13,770 posts)
11. One of the schools in my county tried doing that back in the 90s...
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:04 PM
May 2013

Not that that neck of the woods is tornado prone, mind you, they did it because they were told by the architect that it would be a great way to save on heating and cooling costs.

We always jokingly referred to the school as "the bunker."

Unfortunately, a few years after the school was finished, this school started getting SERIOUS problems with mold.

The costs associated with fixing the building damn near bankrupted this small town district and there was even talk of disbanding the district and consolidating with nieghbors for a while.

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
15. Just the shelter, not the entire school.
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:08 PM
May 2013

I can see how there could be problems with the whole school underground. But I mean a shelter built close to the school to be used for the duration of the storm only.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
16. It has to do with the geology of the southern coasts:
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:09 PM
May 2013

sand, silt, and clay. The water table is close to the surface because of this geology. We'd have water and/or toxic mold in our basements if we built them here.

Also, we don't have as much to worry about high-level tornadoes as we do hurricanes. You can see them coming for days and prepare (or evacuate.)

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)
18. Thanks for the explanation
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:12 PM
May 2013

I lived in Florida and knew about hurricanes, of course. I also lived in Austin, TX, and the ground was unbelievably hard there, though some of the older homes have basements.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
20. The ground is Austin is hard due to all the limestone.
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:16 PM
May 2013

Not far from there you have Enchanted Rock which is all granite. There is topsoil, of course, but it's shallow compared to the coasts. And full of rocks

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
19. There's a good reason for why "massachusetts, where almost every home has a basement."
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:14 PM
May 2013

It's historical. They were used either for food storage or as additional rooms. They were never designed as shelters from inclement weather. If people used them that way in the past, it was spur of the moment and not a design concern.

And so, modern homes there get built the same way because people expect it. And then they use them as additional rooms or for storage

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
27. No, but I can guess that's your colloquialism for
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:22 PM
May 2013

root cellar

And historically, people down here had cisterns, but they would never have been large enough to use as a shelter. Other than for the storage of rainwater, they were used mostly for keeping things cold or cool, like dairy products.

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
69. Yup
Tue May 21, 2013, 09:10 AM
May 2013

said "sellahs", spelled "cellars" Now they are used for storage or extra living space or both.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
72. Which is back to its original purposes: living space and/or storage ;)
Tue May 21, 2013, 09:19 AM
May 2013

You wouldn't want to use a basement as a shelter from a tornado as the structure above you could collapse. Shelters are usually placed away from structures, partly, too, because of the debris that will be all over the place once they can come out again.

I just hope there aren't people trapped in shelters because there's a car or other massive object on top of their exit door.

Jennicut

(25,415 posts)
59. I live in Connecticut. Almost everyone has some sort of basement.
Mon May 20, 2013, 10:27 PM
May 2013

Mine pretty much has all the junk I keep meaning to get rid of, like cribs and a recliner chair that broke. Mine has flooded a few times from a hurricane and a blizzard after the snow melted. But I am so happy I live where it is commonplace and very feasible.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
61. My family lived in Connecticut in the late 1960s for a couple of years.
Mon May 20, 2013, 10:58 PM
May 2013

I remember the basement well (it was the main TV room.) I also remember how damp it was most of the time

MADem

(135,425 posts)
33. Why don't they build homes that can withstand severe weather?
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:38 PM
May 2013

A big concrete egg, set halfway into the ground. Mound some dirt up and set the egg into it, then put more dirt on top of it and grow grass up there--it'll keep the place cool in summer, hell, kids could use it for sledding in winter. Enjoy big windows in the egg, but include steel "persiane" shutters that can be quickly lowered if a tornado is enroute.

Why people keep building matchboxes in a tornado zone is beyond me, and just dumb. Find an architectural methodology that works and is survivable--this shit is not going to get any better over time. The climate is changing, and it is getting less friendly.

Nay

(12,051 posts)
54. I had a similar idea -- why couldn't one or more of the hallways in every school be constructed
Mon May 20, 2013, 10:02 PM
May 2013

with a base of a large reinforced cast concrete 'pipe' -- like a huge square culvert pipe -- so there are no walls to fall? No roof to fly off? It would be thick enough and heavy enough to not be moveable by wind at all. I'm no engineer, but frankly, if that was my kid's school, I'd BUY them a bigass culvert pipe and donate it.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
60. Get Guamanians to come to USA and build the schools!
Mon May 20, 2013, 10:29 PM
May 2013

Their buildings manage to survive sustained winds approaching 200 mph regularly. http://www.tornadoproofhouses.com/lessons.php#isitpossible

We can't use "summer gazebo" building practices in areas that get this kind of weather anymore. Too many people get hurt. Build it like you're preparing for a tai-fun!!!

Your giant concrete pipe is a great idea--and it would be architecturally interesting, as well. Put a couple pairs of massive steel doors at either end and Bob's Yer Uncle...

JCMach1

(27,556 posts)
57. almost nothing (except for underground) can survive F4-F6 tornadoes
Mon May 20, 2013, 10:11 PM
May 2013

after the 1999 outbreak, I saw an outlet mall completely gone but for concrete slab... Steel beams that secured walls were twisted to pretzels. The same storm a few miles down the road I saw an entire 1/2 HS stadium of seats picked-up from the location and land in a field several miles down the road... relatively undamaged.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
58. Not even a concrete egg surrounded by earthern berm?
Mon May 20, 2013, 10:21 PM
May 2013

I'll bet those would survive without too much trouble. The tornado might even just stroll right over it.

http://www.tornadoproofhouses.com/


The technology for designing and building tornado-resistant houses has been around since 1963 — almost half a century. It was first developed in America, not in continental North America, but instead in the American protectorate territory of the Marianas islands, primarily on the island of Guam. It utilizes the principle of "box-rigid-frame," a type of reinforced concrete shell design. This approach is described in an article titled "Disaster-Resistant Shell Houses" [PDF] in the American Concrete Institute's Concrete International magazine, published in May 2008. The article discusses in detail the sterling performance of reinforced concrete houses over the past half century impacted with numerous strong typhoons and powerful earthquakes on the islands in the region.

In 1962, Typhoon Karen roared across the island of Guam with recorded wind gusts up to 207 mph, cleaning the island of most of the conventionally constructed houses. Following an appeal to the U. S. government by the Guam governor, President John F. Kennedy directed the development of typhoon-resistant houses. In this effort, the president enlisted the help of Henry J. Kaiser of Kaiser Hospital fame. At the time he also was CEO of Kaiser Permanente Cement Company as well as a homebuilder in Hawaii. Mr. Kaiser asked Dr. Alfred A. Yee, a world-respected structural engineer and author of a number of articles for various technical magazines, to develop the structural design for the first typhoon-resistant house. It was quickly done and thousands of these houses have been subsequently built around the island including on the military reservations. And they are still being built.

The original houses used precast concrete walls which were fabricated at the building sites and tilted into position. The roofs utilized cast-in-place reinforced concrete. All of the elements of a house, floors, walls and roofs, were intimately connected with steel reinforcing bars in order to create a box, or shell. Instead of building storm shelters inside a house as is usually done in North America, the entire house becomes a storm shelter, a practice that was not used until the Guam typhoon-resistant reinforced concrete shell house concept was developed.

The concrete shells on Guam have performed without damage for fifty years. The only vulnerable features of such structures are the wall openings. Steel doors and window storm shutters are usually available from local building supply stores such as the Home Depot or Lowes. Special structural attention must be paid to the door mountings. As of the time of this writing [June 2012], foolproof protection of these openings, especially windows, does not yet appear to have completely matured. It is assumed that conventional metal garage doors will not survive a big tornado.

In 1993, Guam, also a frequent target of earthquakes caused by movement of ocean floor plates in the Pacific Ocean (often referred to as the "Ring of Fire&quot , was visited by a Richter 8.1 earthquake. There was no reported structural damage to a single reinforced concrete shell house.


The above site touts a different design, but it has the "concrete" concept in common. The whole 'sticks of wood and drywall' concept needs to die out in that area--it's a recipe for disaster.

As we've seen.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
66. I've been in typhoons in the far east that went on for DAYS.
Tue May 21, 2013, 12:13 AM
May 2013

A concrete structure is the way to go. It's got to be built to typhoon standards, though, with straps on the roof and steel reinforcements and so on...there are buildings on Guam and Okinawa that have survived wind gusts close to 200 mph and sustained winds of 80 or more.

We do know how to build these kinds of structures. We should at least make the schools in tornado-prone areas typhoon-proof; that way, they'd survive these tornadoes without too much fuss and people would have a shelter to run to in the event of emergency.

They have some horrible weather in the far east, typhoons and super typhoons. The "good" buildings survive without any issue, and fatalities in places like Japan/Okinawa and Guam, where preparedness is key and ongoing, even with really awful weather, are very, very rare.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,326 posts)
64. An 8 inch thick reinforced concrete structure most certainly would survive above ground.
Mon May 20, 2013, 11:34 PM
May 2013

An outlet mall is a bad example of sturdy construction. Most are built on the cheap - steel or no steel. They are still flimsy. Paper thin walls just act as the sail to break the mast (steel).

Not much beats steel (for tensile strength) reinforced concrete (for mass and rigidity). There is a reason they make bunkers (above and below ground) out of it.

If lived in one of those tornado prone areas I would be investing a few hundred dollars in concrete and rebar to make me a shelter.

A great project for a local college would be a design contest for low cost, easy to build, effective, above ground shelters.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,326 posts)
67. You are confusing un-reinforced masonry (brick) with reinforced concrete.
Tue May 21, 2013, 09:03 AM
May 2013

No comparison whatsoever.

Even that brick would have benefited from a little more steel reinforcement but that's a whole other issue.

In your video, there is another building behind the yellow building. The blue building has some simple roll-up-door modifications that enable it to withstand the same test.

But that is just confusing the issue because, as I said, there is no comparison between unreinforced (or even reinforced) masonry and reinforced concrete. Also, the institute conducting these tests isn't testing for storm shelters - they are testing for cost effective construction practices on widely used (and insured) commercial businesses.


See:



That said. Isn't it amazing what a little strategically placed steel (clips, strong ties, steel plates) and glue can accomplish?

&feature=endscreen&NR=1
 

Bigmack

(8,020 posts)
37. I'm reading all this about hard ground...
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:47 PM
May 2013

... high water table... etc.

I know that if I lived in tornado alley, I'd dig a goddam shelter with a pick and shovel if I didn't have the money to rent whatever equipment was needed.

Cement block or septic tank underground.. cement slab... one manhole with a loop to come-along the manhole to the inside of the shelter.

I don't care how small the town is... the goddam schools need shelters. Local volunteer labor... local cement company donations and rebar... at the least.

MNBrewer

(8,462 posts)
38. I imagine some kind of shelters will now be built
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:48 PM
May 2013

Although, I grew up in a tornado prone section of Georgia where the soil was sandy and the water table was high. Nobody had basements.

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
40. Build up the soil and place the shelter underneath that.
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:50 PM
May 2013

Know what I mean. Like I said I'm not an engineer but seems it could be done.

MNBrewer

(8,462 posts)
41. I guess basements would be a bad idea, as some of the kids who died at one of the schools drowned,
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:57 PM
May 2013

presumably in the basement?

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
45. Im not suggesting a basement below the water table. I am suggesting
Mon May 20, 2013, 09:00 PM
May 2013

Building a mound, a hill, an placing a shelter under the built up mound, hill.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
43. I remember a Twilight Zone episode about this
Mon May 20, 2013, 09:00 PM
May 2013

One guy in a neighborhood had one and wouldn't let anyone else in.
It would have to outsize the Astrodome considerably! How would you decide who can get in?

There was a trend in the 70s to build homes "into" hills.

JCMach1

(27,556 posts)
56. They don't want to PAY for basements, that's the difference
Mon May 20, 2013, 10:08 PM
May 2013

The years I lived there, I MADE SURE the rental homes I stayed in had basements. The last one was a basement that doubled as a 1950's fall-out shelter... 4-6ft of reinforced concrete...

 

kestrel91316

(51,666 posts)
63. I suppose they'd rather rely on prayers and Gawd's blessings.
Mon May 20, 2013, 11:20 PM
May 2013

They sure don't want anybody in the gubmint telling them what to do.

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
68. Yeah you sure got us pegged buddy
Tue May 21, 2013, 09:08 AM
May 2013

Yep that is us for sure. Oh, here is a word for the day for you

Compassion
Noun
Sympathetic pity and concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others: "the victims should be treated with compassion".

Isn't that a funny word. Bet you never heard it before.

titaniumsalute

(4,742 posts)
70. How would you do this?
Tue May 21, 2013, 09:13 AM
May 2013

You typically only get 3-4 minutes of head's up. By the time you gather your family and try to get to the community shelter it may way too late.

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