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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhich Dogs Bite?
Which Dogs Bite?: A Case-Control Study of Risk Factors; Gershman K. A., Sacks J. J., Wright J. C., Pediatrics. 1994 Jun; 93 (6 Pt 1): 913-7.
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We identified biting dogs (cases) from all 1991 reports to the Denver Municipal Animal Shelter (DMAS), the animal control agency for Denver County. Eligible cases were dogs reported to DMAS in 1991 for biting a nonhousehold member and whose victim received medical treatment as indicated on the bite report. We excluded dogs if they had bitten a nonhousehold member before the reported bite in 1991 because the owners, in response, may have changed dog-rearing practices, discipline, and training, and because dogs that repeatedly bite are likely to be removed from the household. We also excluded dogs if more than one dog was involved in the bite episode, the dog had been owned for < 6 months before the reported bite, the owner was not a Denver County resident, or if the owner's telephone number was not listed on the bite report.
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Children aged 12 years and younger were the victims in 51% of cases. Compared with controls, biting dogs were more likely to be German Shepherd or Chow Chow predominant breeds, male, residing in a house with ≥ 1 children, and chained while in the yard.
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Pediatricians should advise parents that failure to neuter a dog and selection of male dogs and certain breeds such as German Shepherd and Chow Chow may increase the risk of their dog biting a nonhousehold member, who often may be a child.
Breed Labeling and Dog Bites
Bite totals become even more misleading when subdivided by breed descriptors. At least half of the dogs in the United States are mixed breed dogs. It is impossible to breed label dogs of unknown history and genetics solely on the basis of their appearance.
Research conducted at two (2) universities has confirmed that attempts to identify visually the breeds in a dog of unknown origin correlate poorly with a DNA analysis of the same dog. Further, different observers, even those with considerable experience with dogs, do not agree with each other. Nevertheless, animal controls and shelter workers continue to assign single breed descriptors to dogs likely to be of mixed breed whose origins are unknown.
Even if visual breed identifications were accurate, dog bite totals still would not provide evidence that some breeds or groups of dogs bit more frequently than others. Breed populations within a given jurisdiction are not known. Therefore, incident rates cannot be calculated with any accuracy. Further, on the basis of samples obtained from veterinary clinics, animal shelters, and dog licensing, we can conclude that the popularity of types of dogs varies from place to place, and changes over time.
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There is no national system in the United States for tallying reports of dog bites. The often-repeated estimates currently cited to argue that there is still a dog bite "epidemic" derive from two telephone surveys conducted to assess a wide variety of injury risk factors and injuries. The first survey was conducted in 1994. From among the 5,328 persons who responded to this survey, interviewers obtained reports of 186 dog bites participants reported had occurred within the 12 months prior to the interview. (Only 38 of the 186 bitten sought medical attention). The second survey, conducted between July 2001 and February 2003, returned a result showing that dog bites had declined overall, and had declined significantly among children.
Note: breed labels in media reports is based almost entirely on visual breed identification.
In the 2 studies noted above (1) (2), professional dog experts were asked to view a number of dogs and visually identify the predominant breed of the dogs. These professionals were wrong 43% of the time. Remember this anytime you see a news report of a "Pit Bull" biting someone. Trying to identify a dog's breed visually is little better than flipping a coin.
We have always known the cause of dog bite injuries
From the first dog bite study published more than 50 years ago until today, the conclusions and recommendations of the researchers have shared a lot in common.
"Education programs aimed at influencing the behavior of pet owners, particularly with respect to the responsibilities of ownership, would do much to reduce the magnitude of the problems." -- H. Michael Maetz, 1975
"Poor owner control blamed for increase in dog bites." -- Washington Post, 1975
"The growing problem of dog control can only be solved if dog owners realize their responsibilities as pet owners." -- Lancaster Farming, 1978
"Efforts to prevent severe dog bites should be focused primarily at the level of the owner." -- John C. Wright, 1985
"Generic non-breed-specific dangerous dog laws can be enacted that place primary responsibility for a dog's behavior on the owner . . . In particular, targeting chronically irresponsible down owners may be effective." -- Jeffrey J. Sacks, et al, 2000
"The dog bite problem is not a disease problem with a single vector; it is a complex societal issue that must address a wide range of human behaviors in ways that deal with irresponsible behavior that puts people and animals at risk." -- Randall Lockwood, 2007
If we want better outcomes in our communities, we need to promote responsible pet ownership: the humane care, custody and control of all dogs.
If you're REALLY worried about dog bites, you should support correcting the things that cause them: like making sure that all dogs are trained & socialized properly, making sure that all dogs are spayed or neutered, making sure that no dogs suffer neglect and/or abuse, and if they do, making sure the dogs are properly rehabilitated.
You should NOT do is to fixate on one particular factor to the exclusion of all else and which is not determinative in predicting bites - the breed of dog. When you see a web site or story reporting that the breed is the SOLE determining factor, THEY ARE LYING TO YOU! And when you spread their lies, you are doing nothing to help curb the problem you're concerned about. And when you support Breed Specific Legislation, you're actually making that problem worse. Why? Because it is a simplistic approach to a complex problem, and it doesn't address the real issues.
The Humane Society of the United States, the American Veterinary Association, the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the American Kennel Club, the American Bar Association, and the National Canine Research Council - In short, precisely ALL of the people who know the relevant law, medicine & canine behavior – they ALL are opposed to Breed Specific Legislation and breed bans.
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Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)while *any* dog may in fact bite a human, while any dog may display aggression, when talking about pit bulls? They've been selectively bred for aggression. And for "gameness" (which means they'll keep going, not let go, stay on the attack, even when badly injured...a desirable characteristic in a dog bred for bull-baiting or fighting, but not so much in a family pet).
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)Response to jazzimov (Reply #4)
MattBaggins This message was self-deleted by its author.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Using this reasoning, GSDs & Blue Heelers shouldn't be good family dogs because they've been selectively bred as herding dogs - which control their flocks by biting & nipping them.
But of course most people who own German Shepherds & Blue Heelers don't herd sheep, they have the dogs as a family member & companion. Most people who have small Terriers don't let them chase & kill rats - which is what they've been bred for hundreds of years to do - they have the dog as a family member & companion. Most people who have Bull Dogs don't engage in bull-baiting with the dog, they have the dog as a family member & companion.
And the overwhelming majority of people who have dogs which are descended from the original "pit bulls" don't engage in dog fighting, the dog doesn't display any abnormal aggression outside normal canine behavior, and they have the dog as a family member & companion.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Border collies may nip at the heels of a sheep; they don't maul them to death and aren't bred to.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)tearing off the nose of a cow that turned on them during a competition. There are very aggressive border collies, there are very passive border collies, and everything in between because, now hold on to your misconceptions here, they are individuals.
SwissTony
(2,560 posts)He was sweet as you like with our very young kids but growled at other (also very young) kids who came to visit. Not surprisingly, the mums weren't happy.
We met a guy who was willing to take him. So, I hope he was happy.
Maybe he just wanted to be a working dog and we didn't have any sheep.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Border collies are really one of the greatest gifts, but they are not house pets and require a job, if you don't give them a job they will find one for themselves, and you probably won't like what they choose.
Pits & collies & a hundred other breeds are what we've made them. We created breeds to do what we needed done at that time, then once we decide that we no longer need what they were bred to do, we blame them for being what we made.
HillWilliam
(3,310 posts)My late partner often said exactly the same about our crew. If you don't give them a job, they'll find one and 9 times out of 9-1/4 it won't be one you care for.
My crew are all herding dogs of one sort or another. Two are ACD mixes (the youngest is 50/50 BC/ACD). I have one purebred Border. The rest except for Emmaline are collie mixes. (Callalily is kuvasz/standard collie.) Herding dogs are emphatically not for just anyone. They're extremely smart, very inquisitive, and as pups are very, very mouthy. A responsible person takes hold of that mouthiness and redirects constantly until the furkid learns to use their nippiness appropriate. Cattledog pups have extremely sharp teeth and they're very nippy. I buy cow hooves by the 20# box to make sure the kids have somewhere appropriate to take their mouthiness out on. With constant and gentle redirection ("Don't chew that. Here: I have something more fun to chew on so I'll trade you.... good girl!"
they get it, no trauma, no drama.
BCs and ACDs both are button-pushers. They have exquisite senses of humor -- and some humans might not find their antics as charming as I do. Both breeds take endless patience when they're young, but by the time they're three they make awesome companions and helpers.
You're so, so right. When someone takes on one of these breeds (especially the kuvasz!), they have to know up-front what they're getting into. I wouldn't trade a one of mine for a brazillion dollars.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Plus that way you know where they came from and you probably have too much spare time anyway.
HillWilliam
(3,310 posts)Since my partner passed and I'm suddenly the only daddy of all seven furgirls the definition of free time escapes me. I've learned never to turn my back on that youngun -- half cattledog, half border collie, 100% busy 100% of the time.
It's not like the kid goes looking for trouble -- trouble just sorta sneaks up and bites her on the ass, poor baby. My smart girl can resist anything but temptation!
SwissTony
(2,560 posts)Our sweet boy wasn't satisfied with his life with us. He needed a job. Full stop.
An amusing (and true) story... I used to go jogging and my BC accompanied me. At one point, we used to pass a garden with a large German Shepherd confined behind a fence. The two dogs used to growl and bark at each other as they went down the fence.
One day, we were passing the garden and the dogs got to the bottom of the fence - which was actually a gate - and the gate was open. The two dogs were suddenly facing each other without a fence in between!!! Both dogs paused for a couple of seconds and then my dog suddenly had the expression Wile E Coyote when he realises he has just stepped off a 30,000 ft cliff. The Shepherd had a huge grin on his face.
Luckily, no damage was done.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Try again.
Gore1FL
(21,130 posts)He was the sweetest dog in the the world. Sure, he was excitable. Knowing how to calm him down was part of the deal, too. He was good with all ages, other dogs, and strangers as long as I was around.
You are buying into the propaganda and not the truth. Pit Bulls are not bread to be fighting dogs. They are strong, they are tenacious, they are excitable. While those are traits one might want in the illegal sport of dog fighting, they are not in-and-of-themselves horrible traits.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)I used to own a Border Collie. They're famous for flipping out and gonig for people, other dogs, you name it. Mine did several times. Really we shouldn't have kept him as a pet.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)n/t
baldguy
(36,649 posts)The breed ban that was instituted to curb dog bites - and which is failing to do so.
They started with just "Pit Bull-type" dogs, the APBT, SBT, Dogo Argentino, & Presa Canario. Then they expanded it to include the Tosa (from Japan) and the Brazilian Mastiff. Now they want to add the German Shepherd dog and the Australian Kelpie.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)They serve a purpose other than as penis-extenders for insecure thugs.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)For herding the Blue Heeler has largely been replaced by the Kelpie - and Australia is looking to add the Kelpie to the ban. But not the Blue Heeler.
The ban still doesn't do anything to stop people from getting bit. And JUST LIKE IN THE US the people who understand dogs oppose the ban.
SwissTony
(2,560 posts)I've never met a Heeler who wasn't a sweetie.
Sure, I wouldn't kick his/her boss or the kids while Heels was around (wouldn't do it when he wasn't either) as I'd expect him to defend his people. As I would from a Shepherd or a Dobie.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)I am familiar with the breed. 
SwissTony
(2,560 posts)You've had two MIXES.
You claim in a previous post that Heelers are the most dangerous dogs in Australia. I don't know a single Australian who would support that position. And I'm an Aussie.
I've met dozens of Heelers. Never had a problem.
They are a wonderful breed of dog.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Irredeemably evil at all levels, an inborn urge to murder, a corruption of all that is good and noble about dogs.
We get it, you can't comprehend that humans are the primary factor in any given dog's behavior. Now, shoo.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)but. Compared to other breeds? Pit bulls are less likely to give aggression signals before attacking (growling, baring teeth, wrinkling muzzle, etc), and less likely to stop attacking if their victim displays signs of submission (a pit bull is more likely than most other breeds to just go ahead and disembowel another dog that's exposed its belly as a sign of submission, rather than giving up). These traits are the result of selective breeding; you don't find them displayed in most other dogs, even ones that are aggressive. Are negligent and abusive owners more responsible for dog attacks than any other factor? Yes. Are certain breeds of dog more of a problem in the hands of negligent owners? Yes, again.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)You really can't shunt even some of the blame onto the dog. it's a fucking dog.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)n/t
baldguy
(36,649 posts)And assholes are more likely to openly express a desire to kill dogs indiscriminately.
Sounds familiar.
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)it was Rottweilers. Before that it was Dobies. Whatever dog has the worst reputation at the time is the one that assholes want.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)It's been a century and the breed is still fucked up. Further, it's unlikely that it will ever fully recover.
As with so many other things, the dogs are not the problem, it's people.
flvegan
(64,407 posts)Whoops, guess I went a little asshole there.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)Two of my dogs were adopted from the pound as adults, and they came to me with behavior problems.
What am I going to do, take them back to the pound?
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Isn't that pretty much exactly what your argument is when it comes to it Bulls?
And it's not just "pit bull apologists" that say bad dogs come from bad owners - professional dog experts do too. Where else?
Drale
(7,932 posts)because dangerous people want a "mean" looking dog and a muscly pitty can look pretty mean if you train them to be dangerous.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)because they account for 71% of dog attacks, while representing only 5% of the dog population.
Drale
(7,932 posts)The facts remain no matter what the breed,
-"Approximately 92% of fatal dog attacks involved male dogs, 94% of which were not neutered",
-"At least 25 different breeds of dogs have been involved in the 238 dog-bite-related fatalities in the U.S."
Breed-specific legislation (BSL)
-In response to these statistics, many communities have enacted breed-specific legislation (BSL) that prohibits ownership of certain breeds, such as pit bulls, Rottweilers and others.
-Any breed of dog can bite, and research suggests BSL does little to protect the community from dog-bite incidents.
-In fact, BSL can often have unintended consequences -- such as black-market interest and indiscriminant breeding practices -- resulting in subsequent breed overpopulation that leads to increases in the number of homeless, stray and euthanized dogs.
-Enforcement of BSL has been shown to be very costly and extremely difficult to enforce. One county in Maryland spent more than $560,000 maintaining pit bulls (not including payroll, cross-agency costs and utilities), while fees generated only $35,000.5
-Responsible breeding and ownership, public education and enforcement of existing laws are the most effective ways of reducing dog bites.
-American Humane supports local legislation to protect communities from dangerous animals, but does not advocate laws that target specific breeds of dogs.
Safe rules of behavior for kids
-Don’t treat a dog unkindly.
Never hit, kick, slap or bite a dog or pull on his ears, tail or paws.
-Don’t bother a dog when she is busy.
Never bother dogs with puppies or dogs that are playing with or guarding toys, eating or sleeping. Always leave service dogs
alone while they are working.
-Don’t approach a dog you don’t know.
Never approach a dog that is tied up, behind a fence or in a car.
-If you find an animal, call the police or animal control for help.
-If you want to meet a dog, first ask the owner for permission. If the owner says it’s OK, hold out your hand in a fist for the dog to
sniff. If he’s interested, you can give him a little scratch under the chin (notover the head) and say hello.
-Do be calm.
Always talk in a quiet voice or whisper -- no shouting -- and take a “time out” if you feel angry or frustrated.
-Do be still.
If a loose dog approaches you, stand still like a tree. Keep your hands at your sides, and stay quiet and calm. Look away from
the dog.
If you are on the ground, curl up into a ball, like a rock. Keep your knees to your chest and your hands over your ears. Stay quiet
and calm. Look down at your knees, not at the dog.
Always make slow movements, set things down carefully and don’t run when you’re around dogs, as this gets them excited and
they may accidently hurt you.
What can dog owners do?
-Spay or neuter your dog.
-Neutering reduces aggression, especially in males. Un-neutered dogs are more than 2.6 times more likely to bite than neutered
dogs.3 Female dogs in heat and nursing moms are much more dangerous than spayed females, and their behavior can be
unpredictable. Talk to your veterinarian to schedule an appointment, or contact your local humane organization or animal shelter for
information on low-cost spay/neuter assistance.
Supervise your dog.
Dogs left on their own may feel uncertain and defensive, or even overly confident, and this poses risks to your dog, as well as to
other people and dogs. Eighty-eight percent of fatal dog attacks among 2-year-olds occurred when the child was left
unsupervised.1
Train and socialize your dog.
Be sure your dog interacts with and has good manners around all members of the family, the public and other animals. Basic training is
as important for the owner as it is for the dog, and socialization is the key to a well-adjusted adult dog. It is essential that puppies
between 8 and 16 weeks old be exposed to a variety of people, places, dogs and other animals. As dogs age, do your best to
continue their exposure to these things to ensure that they are well socialized throughout their lives.
Restrain your dog.
Twenty-four percent of fatal dog attacks involved loose dogs that were off their owner’s property.4 Dogs that are allowed to roam
loose outside the yard may perceive your entire neighborhood as their “territory” and may defend it aggressively. By obeying leash
laws and taking care to properly fence your yard, you will not only be respecting the laws in your community, but you will also be
helping keep your dog safe from cars, other dogs and unforeseen dangers.
Unchain your dog.
Chained dogs are 2.8 times more likely to bite.3 Tethering or chaining dogs increases their stress, protectiveness and vulnerability,
thereby increasing the potential for aggression. Fencing is the better solution.
Irresponsible dog owners and people like yourself that spread false information and fear and causing a genocide against dogs. I'm betting you laugh at Faux New's watchers for getting caught up in the fear and believe the lies but you and others like you have the same condition when it comes to Pitty's. You know nothing other than what the media tells you, which is wrong most of the time about 60% of the time they call a dog that is not remotely related to a pitbull, a pitbull. You get scare and say these animals are dangerous just like Tea Baggers think minorities are dangerous. I'm sure you'll get angry and say "IM NOTHING LIKE THEM" but unfortunately you have your mind closed to the issue and refuse to admit it or educate yourself.
http://www.americanhumane.org/animals/stop-animal-abuse/fact-sheets/dog-bites.html
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)Good grief.
Your source chooses not to address dog breeds. How convenient.
http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities-2012.php
http://images.bimedia.net/documents/Dog+attack+stats+with+breed+2012.pdf
http://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/dog-bites-which-are-the-most-dangerous-61984/
Drale
(7,932 posts)started by Colleen Lynn, after she was attacked by a dog that she claimed was a pitbull and later proved not to be, again 60% of the time the media and people who don't know what they are talking about call a dog a pitbull when its not. And your going to use a personal injury attorney, people who make their money from dog bites as a credible source? Every credible national organization that is involved in dog interactions oppose BSL laws and stand against people who irrationally hate pitpulls and other breeds like them because the media tells them too.
American Dog Owners Association
American Humane
American Kennel Club (AKC)
American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA)
American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA)
American Working Dog Federation
Association of Pet Dog Trainers
Best Friends
Center for Disease Control
Humane Society of the United States (HSUS)
International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants
International Association of Canine Professionals
National Animal Control Association
National Animal Interest Alliance
National Association of Dog Obedience Instructors
National Canine Research Council
No Kill Advocacy Center
Oh yeah here are the statements from these organizations against BSL laws
http://stopbsl.org/bsloverview/the-lack-of-professional-support/#aba
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)because they don't support your illogical 'case'.
I'm not really interested in 'arguing' with you.
Drale
(7,932 posts)I called your "stats" bullshit and made up, sorry you couldn't understand the subtext
bvar22
(39,909 posts)...and that they can't KILL with their bites?
You say that WE should do all of this
We must do ALL that...so that you can own a dangerous dog?
I don't think so.
If YOU want to own a dog that can kill with its bite,
YOU should take the necessary precautions to keep US safe from YOUR pet,
and have the necessary liability insurance to pay for the damage,
AND incur the cost of policing OTHER irresponsible owners of the breed YOU choose to own.
It is NOT our problem.
It IS yours.
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)And I think the OP was agreeing with you here:
If YOU want to own a dog that can kill with its bite,
YOU should take the necessary precautions to keep US safe from YOUR pet,
When he/she made the statement you quoted:
"If you're REALLY worried about dog bites, you should support correcting the things that cause them: like making sure that all dogs are trained & socialized properly, making sure that all dogs are spayed or neutered, making sure that no dogs suffer neglect and/or abuse, and if they do, making sure the dogs are properly rehabilitated. "
What dogs bite? Those with teeth.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Thats easy.
One that can Kill or Maim with its bite.
When was the last time anyone was permanently disfigured or Killed by a Pug?
And I disagree with the OP.
He want to give ME a list of things to do so HE can own a dangerous dog.
I maintain that it is HIS responsibility, and NOT mine.
I already have enough to do.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)They've carnivores, in case you didn't notice.
And you don't have to agree with ME, but you can't just dismiss & ignore LITERALLY EVERY ACADEMIC, GOVERNMENTAL & PROFESSIONAL ORGANIZATION involved with canine behavior. They all disagree with you.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)That is just stupid,
and YOU are being willfully obtuse.
I suppose in the outer realm of far fetched possibilities,
if a someone was completely incapacitated,
lying on the floor,
and unconscious and unable to call for help,
my 3 year old child *COULD* kill them,
....but that is not happening every day,
now IS IT?
Go ahead an provide us with a credible source documenting when and where a Pug killed someone.
I'll wait.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)In the first link, it was Jack Russel that bit an 8 day old infant.
In the 2nd, it was two pugs that fed of the already DEAD body of a suicide.
You would eat somebody too if you ran out of food and were trapped inside.
You will have to do better than that,
but wait for me to stop laughing.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)If you dismiss it, blame it all on the dog & deny that humans are responsible, then you're delusional and have no business commenting.
Walk away
(9,494 posts)This doesn't happen often because most people aren't that stupid.
Are these the only small dog attacks that you can come up with that have killed? If so, only one fits the criteria and (although I don't fully agree with the OP) it certainly helps to prove his point.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)There are about 200 million dogs (including about 15 million Pit Bulls & Pit Bull mixes) in the US - only about 80 million are "owned" by humans (including about 7 million Pit Bulls). Of those, there are about 5 million dog bites of any kind each year, and only 1 million of those require any kind of professional medical care, and only about 30 people are killed each year.
200,000,000 dogs => 30 people killed.
If any dogs anywhere are bred by these admitted morons to be vicious, bloodthirsty killers of human beings, they're pretty sucky at it.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)that believe we are entitled to dictate any and every thing anyone else does that we don't like.
Soundman
(297 posts)I had to re-read it three times to really see how over the top it is. Nice try but major fail in my opinion.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Otherwise you're just blowing smoke.
Soundman
(297 posts)It is all mostly bull shit and smoke and mirrors. I am quoting from memory here but the part about the dog experts being wrong about breed type 43% of the time. Perhaps when shown all known breeds including the most obscure breeds. But you would not seriously say that dog experts would wrongly identify the top 10 or 20 breeds would you?
Do you think quoting 60 year old studies is relevant today?
I am pretty sure a phone "survey" is not a scientific study.
And the one data set only applies to one county in Colorado, and left out dogs that were owned for less than six months, or when no phone number was listed. Hardly scientific.
Common sense applies to all dogs. I agree owners are to blame for the majority of bites. But that is not relevant to this discussion. As a motorcycle rider we say there are two types of riders, those who have been down and those that will go down. The same applies to dog owners. There are two types of dog owners, those who's dogs have got loose and those whose dogs will get loose. Pit bulls like chows are very strong willed and are not known to be obedient when they are on the loose. When loose they are both dangerous and unpredictable. Same with rots.
At any rate I imagine if you were to go back to the fifties you would find that collies were the most notorious biters. Hardly relevant today.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)You didn't even read (or understand) the OP.
TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts)owners, some fucking dogs will still bite, if their wiring tells them to.
Give it up, man.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)And any breed of dog can kill. Thankfully the simple fact of the matter is MOST DOGS INCLUDING PIT BULLS DON'T BITE! And never will!
defacto7
(13,485 posts)that you love your animals, your dog/dogs and that is commendable. It is also clear that you are strongly offended by animal cruelty. Both of those things account for 90% of the most important attributes a person who cares for animals can possess.
But you really have to realize you have entered the realm of obsession with this pit bull thing. You have made your points very clear, others have made theirs. But I guarantee that your obsession is beginning to make you loose ground in your own battle for your dogs. You're past the point of convincing anyone and you are becoming bait for ridicule. More posts and more verbiage does not a battle win.
You don't need to give up, you don't need to change your mind, but I suggest you stop shooting yourself in the foot with this unnecessary obsession. That is IF you really are interested in making a point.
Is this concern on my part? Yes it is. I am concerned for animal advocates like myself and their message, and I am concerned for the reputation of this site.
Good luck.
blueamy66
(6,795 posts)Couldn't have said it better.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)Just sayin'
REP
(21,691 posts)(American Academy of Hand Surgeons)
I was bitten by Fannie in March. I had to spend 4 days in the hospital and nearly died.
I won't post photos of the wounds; they're revolting but here's the terrible beast who bit me:
(she was very, very scared when she bit me)
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)but it must be said that rare is the article of a person being mauled to death by a cat.
Beautiful feline you got there.
REP
(21,691 posts)... they'd be too dangerous. Fannie is my little cat; she's only 10 lbs and was just trying get away from me (not an unprovoked attack, as with some of these dog stories) - and nearly killed me. But yes, even Stewart, her 24 lb brother, probably couldn't maul anyone to death. Not that he'd try; he's the least aggressive cat ever.
Stewart (the big one):
(and thanks - I may have full use of that hand back eventually)
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)Both of them are.
I've got one who is so docile but does get carried away in play with me sometimes. She's the only pet in the house at the moment, but I'm about to be working a lot more, so I'm going to adopt a kitten/young cat very soon to keep her company.
A fairly recent pic of the one I have now:
and about a year and a half ago:
These guys are older now (two will be 11 this year and Thomas is 12), but they still love playing with their catnip bananas. Thomas is the most playful of the bunch; he wrestles with the throw rugs, loves chase toys, and every cats' favorite: invisible shit.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)REP
(21,691 posts)He can pick up and carry a full gallon jug of water with his teeth:
Fortunately, he's extremely sweet-natured and only aggressively affectionate. Getting a head-butt from him is a little like getting punched.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)I wish he would give me a head-butt. Sweetie!
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)I'm concerned!
REP
(21,691 posts)And during that incident, teeth
Okay, not that funny. Not only was the resulting infection life-threatening, I may never recover full use of the thumb on my dominant hand. She is a very sweet little cat, and she isn't quite sure even yet that I'm not mad at her (I never was; she was only doing what cats do when they're scared).
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Plus, infections can be bad, but they are a long way from a dog mauling.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Oh, sure, I sometimes risk a hand mauling by petting Irresistible Kitty Bellies, but the little scratches are worth it and I always put antibiotic ointment on them right away.
Drale
(7,932 posts)plus their cute when they are kittens but when they grow up they drive you insane soooo yeah
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)I have a Golden Retriever and a Chihuahua. Both are so socialized neither one barks when someone they don't know comes to the door. My Retriever was even kicked by a little six year old boy from hell (I'm certain this kid will one day languish behind bars), who is the son of a good friend of mine. She was laying in the middle of the floor and he KICKED her as he walked by. After she whimpered for a second, she came to lay at my feet. That was all, but I'd bet money she secretly smiled as I asked my friend to take his child from hell back to wherever he came from, and that while my Friend was always welcome at my house, the boy from hell would never again walk through the door.
That said; I don't give a FUCK whether or not Pit Bulls might bite more or less than any other dog; I'd STILL never own one. Do you want to know why?
They're fucking hideously ugly.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)But we keep getting the bullshit from malicious people saying they are.
If people keep lying, we'll keep having to repeat the truth.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)along with your cause.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)And the bullshit from malicious people has been debunked repeatedly.
Orrex
(63,208 posts)1. There is some disagreement on the precise breed of any given dog
2. The media may misidentify dogs as pit bulls following an attack
3. Therefore pit bulls are great dogs and fuck anyone who wants to kill my dog
I note with interest that you haven't posted a single link--not one--in which this misidentification by the media actually resulted in a material error in the handling of the case.
When it comes to proving the innocence of pit bulls, your standard of proof is preposterously low. When it comes to demonstrating that pit bulls are dangerous, your standard of proof is preposterously high.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)by internationally recognized academic institutions.
And do you forgot that the general consensus is that you don't know shit about dogs?
Orrex
(63,208 posts)Especially when they open, follow, and close with personal attacks upon anyone who offends their beloved animals.
And are you talking about the peer-reviewed studies in your OP? The ones with the shaky methodology and small sample size?
Why am I not surprised?
The best that you can hope for in this is to underscore the fact that it is difficult to come by hard numbers showing how often pit bulls maul people as compared to other breeds, and I already know that you love the fallacy of the receding target, so there's simply no evidence that will convince you.
From all you've posted, it's clear that you have this bizarro standard under which only a mauling by a 100% pure pit bull qualifies as a pit bull attack. Since you've repeatedly--in various phrasings--that DNA testing is needed to establish a true pit bull, why don't you outline for us exactly which genetic markers would have to be present in order for a pit bull to be conclusively identified?
If you can't identify those genetic markers, then you're explicitly admitting that you can't identify evidence that would convince you.
It's delightful to watch you foam at the mouth and bark at everyone.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Just sayin'...
baldguy
(36,649 posts)That didn't happen with my Shepherd mix.
I think they're both good looking dogs - but I'm biased.
Orrex
(63,208 posts)It's flattery for the sake of self-preservation.
TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts)
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)
rustydog
(9,186 posts)you can't change the FACT that Pit Bulls were bred to fight and kill. It is a dangerous breed. It doesn't require your belief or agreement to make it so.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)I would pull the Tr. card. But he/she is serious so it's probably the most obsessive animal misinformation propagator I have seen. He's on a Mission!!!! I would tell him he's wrong too but it will just make him spam the site more.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)nicky187
(137 posts)1. Case-control studies don't establish causation, only correlation. Only if the model breed => biting behavior is true, then you can infer causation. But we haven't seen that the model is true.
2. The study is from 1994. Something more recent would be good to take into account demographic and canine population changes over time.
3. We don't know what provoked the dogs' behavior in these cases.
Just my $0.02.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)There isn't. That's the point.
They also claim that the "biting problem" with Pit Bulls began in the 1990s. It didn't - because there isn't a "problem".
And, of course we can't know what provoked these dogs to bite - but the morons further claim that they do know, without knowing the circumstances of each incident & without knowing the individual dogs.
And they want to change our laws based on their erroneous information - and kill millions of dogs out of hand. Can you see why this might be an issue?
They're basing a policy decision on faulty inference. The results are (depending on how you phrased the research questions) Type I or Type II errors. In any event, the costs are going to be high in terms of loss of innocent life, and emotional distress.
I'd much rather see a study based on a random sample of dogs taken from veterinary practices or some other population register. Then if they check to see how many of those dogs have a history of biting, and why they bit, I'd be more pleased.
If that's not possible, then a retrospective case-control study could be done like this one, but could be designed better.
Even with flaws, the study has some merit, but this is what you get be trying to push inference beyond the limits of what is appropriate for the data and methods used.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)You want me to count the posts? No, you need to read. The burden of proof is yours and you've done your job. But now as usual you resort to denial. It's an obsession.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)defacto7
(13,485 posts)From misinformation to denial, now to insults. It's your normal routine. Now your stories are just a zany and madcap entertainment to most here instead of making a reasonable point. You really are not interested in your point at all. It's a joke and most people know it. You are making enemies, therefore you exhibit the features of your dog of choice... and you trash the very cause you pretend to care about.
It's not about caring about the fate of pit bull terriers and educating people about them, it's about your obsession.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)defacto7
(13,485 posts)Entertaining in a perverted sort of way, I guess.
polly7
(20,582 posts)I've been around many dogs of all breeds, the only time I've been really bitten was by a little shih-tsu cross who bit my cheek when I stupidly leaned in to pet her, just meeting her for the first time. It wasn't her fault at all, she felt threatened. I do admit though, I am afraid of two or more dogs of any breed running loose, and I wouldn't let any dog alone with a baby or small child, no matter how long I'd known them. People need to realize dogs are not human and we have no idea what will make them afraid enough to bite. As for dogs that have been bred and purposely trained to fight ... their owners are the ones that need to spend time locked up in a pound.
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Flatulo
(5,005 posts)Personally, I hate the ugly bastards with a passion. A few years ago, one ripped a hole in the side of my gentle Lab. We were walking, on leash, and she was attacked without provocation. The owner was a macho asshole. Eventually the town ordered the dog euthanized after a number attacks on other pets.
I could take all your posts on this subject, and do a global search and replace of Pit Bull with Gun. And your arguments sound just as desperate.
We can't get rid of all the irresponsible gun owners any more then we can get rid of all the macho assholes.
flvegan
(64,407 posts)Far too many liberals have bought into the media hype, barf it back up here and call it factual. Fox News, et al have taught them well. Ignorance embraced. I honestly can't understand the willful ability to allow one's own prejudice to sort out what's real and what isn't.
Oh, wait...now I remember why.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)The fifth paragraph states:
There is a persistent allegation by pit bull terrier advocates that pit bulls are over- represented among reported dog attack deaths and maimings because of misidentifications or because “pit bull” is, according to them, a generic term covering several similar types of dog. However, the frequency of pit bull attacks among these worst-in-10,000 cases is so disproportionate that even if half of the attacks in the pit bull category were misattributed, or even if the pit bull category was split three ways, attacks by pit bulls and their closest relatives would still outnumber attacks by any other breed.
Orrex
(63,208 posts)Otherwise the illusion falls apart.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Just for starters, why don't you give us a list of all the breed names he's misspelled.
LostOne4Ever
(9,288 posts)That report dismisses the issue with positively identifying pb with media report AND intentionally treats 3 different breeds of dogs as 1 breed AND admits to over counting pitbulls AND despite giving population numbers for 48 breeds of dog never corrects for population.
Just using his data puts other dogs above it (whether Wolf hybrids, Rotweilers, or bull mastiffs) above pitbulls in almost every catagory when you adjust for breed and population.
But Clifton is so set in his determination to get everyone to hate the breed he dismisses these issues as if they were nothing and just repeats his flawed findings over and over and over again on his FB page.
Here is the attacks doing bodily harm (adbh) when you adjust for population differences and treat it on a breed by breed basis:
- Breed/ population/ adbh/ Child victims/ adult victims/ deaths/ maulings
- Rottweiler/ 0.003%/ 16,033,333.33/ 9,066,666.67/ 4,200,000.00/ 2,600,000.00/ 8,933,333.33
- Wolf Hybrid/ 0.001%/ 8,400,000.00/ 6,900,000.00/ 500,000.00/ 1,900,000.00/ 4,800,000.00
- Bull mastiff (Presa Canario)/ 0.002%/ 3,800,000.00/ 1,500,000.00/ 1,400,000.00/ 550,000.00/ 2,200,000.00
- Pit bull Terrier (averaged to 1 breed)/ 0.011%/ 2,005,050.51/ 840,404.04/ 700,000.00/ 211,111.11/ 1,113,131.31
- Akita/ 0.004%/ 1,625,000.00/ 1,050,000.00/ 475,000.00/ 200,000.00/ 1,175,000.00
- Boxer/ 0.004%/ 1,200,000.00/ 350,000.00/ 375,000.00/ 125,000.00/ 500,000.00
- Chow/ 0.007%/ 771,428.57/ 514,285.71/ 214,285.71/ 100,000.00/ 514,285.71
- German Shepherd/ 0.014%/ 664,285.71/ 421,428.57/ 185,714.29/ 92,857.14/ 407,142.86
- Labrador / 0.007%/ 642,857.14/ 457,142.86/ 157,142.86/ 42,857.14/ 485,714.29
- Great Dane/ 0.007%/ 442,857.14/ 128,571.43/ 100,000.00/ 42,857.14/ 200,000.00/
Here is deaths when you adjust for population and treat it on a breed by breed basis:
- Breed population adbh Child victims adult victims deaths maulings
- Rottweiler 0.003% 16,033,333.33 9,066,666.67 4,200,000.00 2,600,000.00 8,933,333.33
- Wolf Hybrid 0.001% 8,400,000.00 6,900,000.00 500,000.00 1,900,000.00 4,800,000.00
- Bull mastiff (Presa Canario) 0.002% 3,800,000.00 1,500,000.00 1,400,000.00 550,000.00 2,200,000.00
- Pit bull Terrier (averaged to 1 breed) 0.011% 2,005,050.51 840,404.04 700,000.00 211,111.11 1,113,131.31
- Akita 0.004% 1,625,000.00 1,050,000.00 475,000.00 200,000.00 1,175,000.00
- Malamute 0.003% 433,333.33 366,666.67 66,666.67 166,666.67 166,666.67
- Boxer 0.004% 1,200,000.00 350,000.00 375,000.00 125,000.00 500,000.00
- Husky 0.020% 330,000.00 205,000.00 20,000.00 110,000.00 90,000.00
- Chow 0.007% 771,428.57 514,285.71 214,285.71 100,000.00 514,285.71
- Doberman 0.007% 214,285.71 114,285.71 100,000.00 100,000.00 100,000.00
It should be noted that these numbers don't even agree with the extremely anti-pit bull website dogbites which used another version of his report. Using that version Chows come out on top in every category and they lump bulldogs with pitbulls.
Lets also not ignore that there are on average ~20 dog (not just pitbulls but dogs in general) attack fatalities a year in the US while lighting, on average, tends to kill 55 people in the US a year. So we are talking about something that happens less often than a lighting strike.
But then again our brains don't understand probability very well.
Edit: if you want i can throw in the numbers for all 48 breeds he gave data on in both categories.
Drale
(7,932 posts)IT WAS CREATED AND CAN ONLY BE USED TO KILL AHHHHHAHHAHHAHA *slobber* *slobber* *slobber*
Logical
(22,457 posts)defacto7
(13,485 posts)in a can.
bike man
(620 posts)Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)
RebelOne
(30,947 posts)did to my son's hand.
get the red out
(13,462 posts)A lot of good could be done in a multitude of ways. Chaining a dog all the time is animal abuse too.
RebelOne
(30,947 posts)I have owned 2 Rottweilers and 2 pit bulls and none of them would ever bite a human, but one of the pits would attack other dogs and cats. And that is because he originally belonged to my brother, who was a dumb ass and would set loose on other dogs and cats.
All those dogs are now in doggy heaven.
I now have a Chihuahua and she has bitten my son and snapped at other people. I never allow her around strangers or children. When I walk her I make sure there are no small children around because they will rush up to her thinking she is a puppy, which frightens her and she may bite.
ismnotwasm
(41,977 posts)DCKit
(18,541 posts)Being "older" now, I think I must smell delicious... to a dog.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Many countries have outright bans on the import of Pit Bulls, American Staffordshire Terriers, Cane Corsos and other types of dogs they view as "agressive", so it's important to do your research before traveling or undertaking a pet move. For example, places like Montreal and Colombia do not allow pit bull-type breeds. To research whether your destination has BSL, start with the country of import's agriculture and veterinary ministry page. You can usually find this by searching for the name of the country and the word "agriculture" until you find the governing website for the country's ministry of agriculture (sometimes called a department of agriculture). This is typically the department that oversees the import and export of live animals, including pets. If the country has breed-specific legislation, they will state it on their pet import requirements page. Understand-a-Bull also has a great list they've put together of countries that have BSL.
Navigating Breed-Specific Legislation when Traveling with Pit Bulls
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 by Pet Travel Questions
If you pay much attention to news about dogs or pet travel, you may have heard the phrase "Breed-Specific Legislation," rules and regulations thatBruno place restrictions on pit bulls and other types of dogs from being imported into or living in a certain area of a country or city.
These laws are controversial to say the least, and they arose primarily due to oftentimes inaccurate beliefs about community safety as well as (some would say unbalanced) patterns of media coverage. Pit bulls carry the stigma of being tough and aggressive, but many pet owners have pit bulls and other so-called "aggressive" breeds who are as sweet and loving as any other dog.
Here at PetRelocation.com, we love all breeds (our CEO even has a Staffordshire bull terrier - that's big Bruno giving one of our customers we relocated to Japan a ride!), but we often encounter hurdles when it comes to shipping certain kinds of dogs. Since we always try our best to stay on top of the latest rules and restrictions, feel free to contact us if you ever have any questions about a specific city or country's regulations when it comes to importing these breeds. Here are some tips on how to plan ahead if you're going to be traveling with a breed that is frequently discriminated against:
Many countries have outright bans on the import of Pit Bulls, American Staffordshire Terriers, Cane Corsos and other types of dogs they view as "agressive", so it's important to do your research before traveling or undertaking a pet move. For example, places like Montreal and Colombia do not allow pit bull-type breeds. To research whether your destination has BSL, start with the country of import's agriculture and veterinary ministry page. You can usually find this by searching for the name of the country and the word "agriculture" until you find the governing website for the country's ministry of agriculture (sometimes called a department of agriculture). This is typically the department that oversees the import and export of live animals, including pets. If the country has breed-specific legislation, they will state it on their pet import requirements page. Understand-a-Bull also has a great list they've put together of countries that have BSL.
Look for ways to find exemptions to breed-specific legislation. For example, Switzerland has a ban on dogs with cropped ears or tails, however will allow them to be imported if their owners can provide a signed letter stating they are moving there for work purposes. Also, pit bulls are not actually a breed, but rather a type of dog often identified by a broad set of physical characteristics - which can lead to inconsistencies in treatment and rule enforcement. Many countries that ban pit bulls will accept the dog if a DNA test is done in advance to show that the dog does not have a high percentage of pit bull terrier.
In addition to country restrictions there are airline rules to consider, as well. These change fairly frequently and often depend on the time of year (due to temperature restrictions) so it's best to double check with your airline before you book your own flight or your pet's.
Consider your pet's quality of life after the move. Many times owners of pit bulls and other frequently banned breeds can also have trouble finding housing that will accept these types of dogs. Also, several countries require breeds they view as being aggressive to wear muzzles when in public spaces.
While BSL can be frustrating and unfair, the unfortunate fact is that many people wanting to move or travel with their dogs will have to comply by these rules and regulations. In the meantime, educating others on alternatives is the best way to create progress in helping all our four-legged friends live equally. The American Veterinary Medical Association opposes BSL, as do several other official institutions like Best Friends Animal Society. Here's what the AVMA had to say in a recent op-ed:
http://www.petrelocation.com/blog/ask-the-pet-travel-experts/navigating-breed-specific-legislation-when-traveling-with-pit-bulls
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Last year, 800 pit bulls in the UK were taken from their owners by police and put down. In accordance with the Dangerous Dog Act passed by Parliament in 1991, law enforcement officers are obligated to seize and destroy dogs belonging to “fighting dog” breeds such as pit bulls.
“The capability to cause injury is far greater (among pit bulls) than any other domestic dog that I know of,” Peter Tallack, a retired dangerous dogs officer told BBC. The Law was passed in 1991 after several incidents in which pit bulls attacked people. However, Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, which cares for of around 10,600 dogs and cats annually, estimates that 92% of the dogs they are forced to hand over for euthanasia would have made good pets.
A dog only needs to be part pit bull to qualify for euthanasia. One family’s rescued mutt, Spud, was seized by police on the grounds that Spud was part pit bull. ”They brought the papers round with them and said that Spud had been typed as a pit bull and that was an illegal dog in this country and we could sign the papers and have him put to sleep,” Beverly Dyer, Spud’s owner told BBC. Dyer took her case to court and, with the assistance of dog behaviorist, Roger Mugford, won Spud’s release.
http://www.bonfireimpact.com/2013/03/03/hundreds-of-dogs-seized-and-put-down-in-the-uk/
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)
felix_numinous
(5,198 posts)--he shows how the relationship between animal and human is crucial--in most cases, rather than projecting the problem onto the animal. The exception is what he refers to as 'the red zone' cases.
I have learned so much from this man and wish more people would listen to his wisdom
http://www.cesarsway.com/channel/dog-behavior/dog-biting
nicky187
(137 posts)... what the incidence for biting is, relative to the population size. We don't know the population of dogs of each breed, and the proportion of those the bite of that population. This is a case-control study, which focuses on the number of cases compared to a non-case control (or controls) for each case.
The idea here is to distinguish between the cases and controls based on how they differ in terms of the hypothesized causal variables. It doesn't tell us how breeds are inclined to act. The authors can include breed (hard to quantify without DNA testing for both cases and controls) as a causal variable, but I wouldn't put much emphasis on it, as it's a categorical variable rather than one which is quantifiable (e.g., size, weight, bite strength, etc.).
Just my $0.02.