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Robb

(39,665 posts)
Tue May 28, 2013, 01:43 PM May 2013

Glock exec testified he would keep doing business with indicted dealers because... wait for it...

"This is still America!!"



Gun Makers Saw No Role in Curbing Improper Sales

The Glock executive testified that he would keep doing business with a gun dealer who had been indicted on a charge of violating firearms laws because “This is still America” and “You’re still innocent until proven guilty.”

The president of Sturm, Ruger was not interested in knowing how often the police traced guns back to the company’s distributors, saying it “wouldn’t show us anything.”

And a top executive for Taurus International said his company made no attempt to learn if dealers who sell its products were involved in gun trafficking on the black market. “I don’t even know what a gun trafficker is,” he said.

The world’s firearms manufacturers have been largely silent in the debate over gun violence. But their voices emerge from thousands of pages of depositions in a series of liability lawsuits a decade ago, before Congress passed a law shielding them from such suits in 2005, and the only time many of them were forced to answer such questions.

Much of the testimony was marked confidential, and transcripts were packed away in archives at law firms and courthouses around the country. But a review of the documents, which were obtained by The New York Times, shows the industry’s leaders arguing, often with detachment and defiance, that their companies bear little responsibility, beyond what the law requires, for monitoring the distributors and dealers who sell their guns to the public....

Read More: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/28/us/gun-makers-shun-responsibility-for-sales-suits-show.html


Read the whole thing. In the words of Monte Frank, [font size=6]
"The gun industry profits immensely from the proliferation of illegal guns, and they have lobbied hard to keep the spigot on."
[font size=2]
43 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Glock exec testified he would keep doing business with indicted dealers because... wait for it... (Original Post) Robb May 2013 OP
technically hes right, until conviction the guys innocent. loli phabay May 2013 #1
No, technically he is an mikeysnot May 2013 #2
Not as far as weapons are concerned, under federal law. Robb May 2013 #4
Well, that's one gunnie fail Cirque du So-What May 2013 #7
Except when it's ACORN or Planned Parenthood MattBaggins May 2013 #5
In the eyes of the law only Major Nikon May 2013 #13
And morality has no place here? I bet he goes to church with his grandkids on Sundays and the rhett o rick May 2013 #21
True, technically the man must be proven guilty in court. cheyanne May 2013 #3
That's not how the law is worded. AtheistCrusader May 2013 #16
That is correct. Fuddnik May 2013 #17
If only you had been buying several hundred guns, you apparently wouldn't have had that delay. nt Robb May 2013 #18
OK, let's be honest for a moment shall we? Savannahmann May 2013 #6
Under federal law, anyone under such indictment Robb May 2013 #9
Innocent till proven guilty . . . caseymoz May 2013 #41
as long as his companies profits aren't hurt, it's all cool. gotta keep the guns flowing! neverforget May 2013 #8
So you're saying everyone should stop doing business with everyone rl6214 May 2013 #10
Read the thread. Robb May 2013 #12
I always love the "so you are saying" posts where you say rhett o rick May 2013 #22
Glocksucker. Orrex May 2013 #11
I bet that got some here excited, if you know what I mean. nm rhett o rick May 2013 #23
Profit immensely? I doubt it. krispos42 May 2013 #14
obviously it's more than a few thousand BainsBane May 2013 #15
Yeah... bobclark86 May 2013 #19
Yes, it is true about most industries BainsBane May 2013 #20
Wonder how many... bobclark86 May 2013 #32
I don't take orders BainsBane May 2013 #40
It's not like krispos42's post caseymoz May 2013 #42
Of course they are krispos42 May 2013 #25
Other manufacturers are responsible for their products BainsBane May 2013 #26
So do I... krispos42 May 2013 #27
First, are all gun company clients really distributors? caseymoz May 2013 #43
This is idiotic. hack89 May 2013 #24
Gun industry: This is still America... AndyA May 2013 #28
Gun manufacturers are geniuses: they fool a bunch of gunner idiots into thinking it's about liberty alcibiades_mystery May 2013 #29
So he openly admits to dealing with criminals EC May 2013 #30
f*cking gun fetishists need to start spending time in jail bowens43 May 2013 #31
Post removed Post removed May 2013 #38
I think more corporate CEOs sulphurdunn May 2013 #33
Wasn't he sentenced to seven years in prison earlier this week for some other crime? n/t malaise May 2013 #34
Last year. He stole money from Glock. Robb May 2013 #35
Thanks yes that's it malaise May 2013 #36
Here's a link - well worth watching malaise May 2013 #37
“I don’t even know what a gun trafficker is.” SunSeeker May 2013 #39

Robb

(39,665 posts)
4. Not as far as weapons are concerned, under federal law.
Tue May 28, 2013, 01:54 PM
May 2013

A person who is under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year cannot lawfully receive a firearm.

18 U.S.C. 922(g) and (n), 27 CFR 178.32(a) and (b). See: http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms-frequently-asked-questions-unlicensed-persons

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
13. In the eyes of the law only
Tue May 28, 2013, 03:09 PM
May 2013

If your neighbor got indicted for diddling kids, would you still let them babysit for you?

Discretion is the better part of valor.

Just sayin'

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
21. And morality has no place here? I bet he goes to church with his grandkids on Sundays and the
Tue May 28, 2013, 10:02 PM
May 2013

priest loves his donations. If there was a God, this asshole would get fried by lightening.

cheyanne

(733 posts)
3. True, technically the man must be proven guilty in court.
Tue May 28, 2013, 01:53 PM
May 2013

However, the company could have withheld their business from the dealer pending resolution of the indictment.

Do you think that would be illegal?

Fuddnik

(8,846 posts)
17. That is correct.
Tue May 28, 2013, 04:16 PM
May 2013

I tried to buy a gun at a dealer almost 40 years ago, and they still had an old bullshit indictment against me, that had been dismissed a year previous. I couldn't buy the gun until I brought the police court documents showing that it had been dropped.

Robb

(39,665 posts)
18. If only you had been buying several hundred guns, you apparently wouldn't have had that delay. nt
Tue May 28, 2013, 04:35 PM
May 2013
 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
6. OK, let's be honest for a moment shall we?
Tue May 28, 2013, 02:04 PM
May 2013

First, I do not support private ownership of firearms.

Second, the dealer even though charged, had obviously not had his Federal Firearms Dealers license revoked. As such, even though charged with a crime, he was still legally able to conduct business. There is more than a small truth in the statement that you are innocent until proven guilty. The Government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt to the jury that the Defendant, even if I think he is the most terrible person in the world. The Jury should not start from a point of view that the defendant must prove his innocence. I utter an obscenity every time I hear a court observer saying that the Defense did not prove their case. The defense need not prove anything, the prosecution must prove the charges are true.

We must do things the right way, because only in doing those things, like charging, trying, and convicting a man of a crime, can we as a people be proud of the outcome. If we cheat, lie, and change the standard of innocence until proven guilty, then we all suffer.

To that end, I have long detested the RICO act. I admire the idea, stopping the proliferation of profit from criminal activity. I detest the means. Under RICO, you are guilty unless you can prove that you got all you have by strictly legal means. The courts have found, erroneously in my opinion, that it does not violate the Constitution, because defendants are not in danger of life or freedom, only in losing property.

Our freedoms must be applied always, even if the defendant is one we detest. Because if we turn our back on the proper means once, we'll find it easier to do so the next time, and the time after that. It is a path that leads to darkness, and one which we can't ever come back from.

Robb

(39,665 posts)
9. Under federal law, anyone under such indictment
Tue May 28, 2013, 02:59 PM
May 2013

...is prohibited from receiving firearms, period. They may continue to possess the firearms they already have. Their license does not need to be revoked for it to be a crime for them to receive firearms.

At issue is that gun manufacturers demonstrated they have zero interest in following even the weakest of laws if it means the possibility of cutting into profits. And a right-wing controlled government afforded them the tools to avoid culpability when even those laws are eventually broken.

caseymoz

(5,763 posts)
41. Innocent till proven guilty . . .
Thu May 30, 2013, 03:09 AM
May 2013

. . . is an ethic that applies to law enforcement and the legal system. Outside the court, it's not absolute. It cannot be approached that way. Other things have to be weighed, things like risk.

It's not about detesting anybody. If gun dealers are suspect, and they still have access to guns, innocent people might die while the court determines guilt or innocence of the accused, a process that can take years, so several innocent people might die. If you ask me, that's more of a "path that leads to darkness, that we can never come back from." Whatever you can possibly mean by that, engaging in commerce at such a risk to innocent people sounds that bad and sounds even more corrupting.
 

rl6214

(8,142 posts)
10. So you're saying everyone should stop doing business with everyone
Tue May 28, 2013, 03:03 PM
May 2013

That may be under an indictment but has never been convicted of anything? Why don't we just imprison everyone under indictment until they are found guilty or innocent.

Robb

(39,665 posts)
12. Read the thread.
Tue May 28, 2013, 03:08 PM
May 2013

Anyone under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year cannot lawfully receive a firearm.

You're OK with them breaking federal law?

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
22. I always love the "so you are saying" posts where you say
Tue May 28, 2013, 10:07 PM
May 2013

something totally different.

Then you add the, "Why don't we just imprison everyone under indictment until they are found guilty or innocent." Yes, of course that's what's being suggested.

Plezzz If you dont have a decent argument, please, please, OH never mind. I am sure this is lost on you.

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
14. Profit immensely? I doubt it.
Tue May 28, 2013, 03:09 PM
May 2013

What percentage of new guns are sold to people that legally can't buy one? Or rather, what fraction of a percent?

There are some 16 million new guns sold a year in America. I have trouble imagining that more than a few thousand are sold every year by FFL-holding dealers that ignore the laws and sell them to whoever has ready cash.

Straw purchases are a separate topic, of course.



Your boldfaced, enlarged quote could be applied to the entire black-market gun industry, which I believe typically deals in stolen, private-transfer, or straw-purchased guns. And of course, those have to be replaced by new guns.


I'll note, however, that if I was to propose that the police sell at auction used guns recovered from criminals and from gun-buying programs instead of destroying them, I'd be called a RW NRA lunatic in the pockets of... wait for it... the gun industry. Because I want people to be able to buy cheaper used guns rather than new ones that are factory-fresh.

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)
15. obviously it's more than a few thousand
Tue May 28, 2013, 03:15 PM
May 2013

but the point is the gun industry is comprised of greedy blood sucking sociopaths who care more about a few bucks than a human life.

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)
20. Yes, it is true about most industries
Tue May 28, 2013, 06:48 PM
May 2013

the difference is that most industries don't profit from murder, and DUers don't champion their unfettered profits as some do for the gun manufacturers.

The other post didn't have facts either, nor does yours. But don't let that deter you from insulting anyone who values human life over profits from guns.

bobclark86

(1,415 posts)
32. Wonder how many...
Wed May 29, 2013, 01:04 PM
May 2013

...Glock employees jump off the top of the building like Apple...

Oh, and thanks for the ad hominum attack, too, coupled with a strawman. My post was aimed at both of you. You bring up something, you give a source.

caseymoz

(5,763 posts)
42. It's not like krispos42's post
Thu May 30, 2013, 03:18 AM
May 2013

. . .was based around any fact, either, but you don't object to his. If you ask me, if he comes out and makes a declaration or guess, and anyone is entitled to make a counter-guess or declaration, or at least point out that the original one wasn't as likely as it first sounded.

Of course, the ideal thing would have been to counter his with a fact, but that's beside the point. For some reason, you seem to favor one person's guesses over another, and it has nothing to do with who whipped out "a fact."

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
25. Of course they are
Wed May 29, 2013, 12:41 AM
May 2013

They're soulless, amoral corporate entities. The fact that they are bloodsuckers is a given, just like every other corporation. That's not the issue.


The issue is that the gun makers are 2 steps removed from the gun dealers. Gun maker -> gun distributor -> gun dealer -> gun's first retail sale.


What you're asking them to do, essentially, is when a gun dealer is merely accused of selling guns illegally to people, the gun makers should stop selling guns to the distributor that supplies the gun dealer... and dozens or hundreds or thousands of other dealers.

Obviously, that's a hard sell to make. "Sorry, New England, you don't get our guns because Big Roy's Gun Distribution sold guns to Jimbo's Second Amendment Warehouse, and Jimbo sold a gun illegally, so we're not selling guns to Big Roy anymore, indefinitely, forever."



And I don't think it's more than few thousand guns a year.

In 2010, with a gun, there were about 122k robberies, 136k aggravated assaults, 66k rapes, and 8.5k homicides.

The total is in the region of 333k violent crimes where a gun was used.

That is 2.08% of all guns sold in the US, give or take.

Now, since something like 80-plus percent of all crime guns are either stolen or purchased with straw buyers, and the most of the balance is stuff like intra-family violence with a legally-purchased gun, then that can only leave a couple of percentage points of that 333k open to new guns (or even used guns) sold illegally by a dealer to a disqualified person.

So, assuming that 2% of all gun-related violent crime are committed, each with a gun that was purchased by a disqualified person by a shady gun dealer, you have about 6,500 guns. Assuming the gun isn't re-used during the year, of course.


That's how I look at it. Now, there is no doubt that gun dealers are deliberately selling both new and used guns to disqualified persons for some under-the-table cash. Of course some are doing it; statistically, how could it be otherwise?

It just seems unlikely that it's more than tiny fraction of gun sales.

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)
26. Other manufacturers are responsible for their products
Wed May 29, 2013, 01:20 AM
May 2013

being distributed legally. I need a fucking background check to buy Sudafed. But gun companies are empowered to willfully distribute guns to criminals because they are exempt from prosecution.

I'm guessing the gun that was used last weekend for the shoot up outside my house that took out four cars, including mine, was acquired illegally, through distributors like those mentioned in the article.

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
27. So do I...
Wed May 29, 2013, 02:34 AM
May 2013

...but CVS or Walgreens or whoever is responsible for running the background check, not whatever pharmaceutical company made them.

So gun companies can't willfully distribute guns to criminals because they are exempt from prosecution. That statement is not factual.


Manufacturers sell to distributors. They have no idea how many guns of theirs are purchased at a single time by a local gun dealer, nor it is reasonable to think that they can or will do so.

Whoever makes the CVS-brand Sudafed that I use has no clue how many boxes I've bought, or when, or where.

I do think that we can impose transaction limits, which would help to defeat straw buyers and such, but for that we need nationwide background checks on all firearm transfers.

Once that is done, we can impose a yearly limit on sales. 12 a year, or whatever. Or rather, only 12 background checks a year per person will be given approval.

If you're buying or selling more than 12 a year, get a collector's license or something, and pay income taxes on what you're selling.


So, here's what I want done. Mandatory background checks for all firearm transfers; then deny all background check applications that a person submits after the 12th one in a calender year.

Does this sound reasonable?

caseymoz

(5,763 posts)
43. First, are all gun company clients really distributors?
Thu May 30, 2013, 03:33 AM
May 2013

As far as I could tell, (without reading the article yet, it's late) this discussion might refer to the few times manufacturers items go directly to dealers. Perhaps the discussion is exclusively about that group.

Second, I admire you for doing the math. If, however, I continue the math, I find that 6,500 reported crimes committed with guns sold to disqualified persons, that's 130 reported crimes per state, per year. To me, that sounds like a lot. And if you assume the number of guns sold that way is going to increase at that rate yearly in the criminal population, there's a real problem you shouldn't ignore.

Either way, it's pretty dickish for them not to point out what you have as their defense and say we'll do what we can with the few dealers we work with. Instead they say, essentially, we'll ignore the problem because we can, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah.

AndyA

(16,993 posts)
28. Gun industry: This is still America...
Wed May 29, 2013, 10:13 AM
May 2013

...and in America, guns rule! We don't care who owns them, how many they have, what they intend to do with them, or what kind of weapons they own.

In America, citizens have a right to bear arms! So what if thousands of people die each year from guns, that is not a problem, it is the cost we all bear to protect our rights!

If children die, the parents can just make more to replace them. If people commit suicide, well, they were unhappy and that's what they wanted, and medical attention is too expensive anyway, so the family survivors will have saved a lot of money.

The right to bear arms is above all other rights, including the right to life, which is why the gun manufacturing industry--singularly--is protected from lawsuits by the Congress (that we bribed to pass legislation to protect us).

If more people had guns, we'd all be safer. When someone starts shooting in a dark movie theater, if most of the people in there had guns, they could all immediately identify the assailant in the dark and shoot him dead. Since all gun owners are perfect shots and possess great eyesight and the instinct to know immediately which person--of all the ones standing up firing guns in the dark--is the assailant. No innocent people would be shot or killed in this scenario.

If more children had guns, and were taught gun safety early on, there'd be fewer accidental shootings. Get a gun in a kid's hand as soon as they are able to hold it. If more children in schools had guns, fewer would die when someone walks in with the intent to kill lots of people. All the kids could fire back and stop the intruder dead. Of course, no innocent victims would be harmed.

Guns should be everywhere*--and everyone should have at least one. Everyone would be much, much safer if this were reality. (*Everywhere except where legislators work and at the NRA headquarters and press conferences.)

We aren't doing this for profit, we're doing it because we're Americans and we believe in protecting the rights and freedoms of all!

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
29. Gun manufacturers are geniuses: they fool a bunch of gunner idiots into thinking it's about liberty
Wed May 29, 2013, 10:17 AM
May 2013

and the Constitution, and "tyrannical government" and other nonsenses, and laugh all the way to the bank as they feed their goods into the illicit market, murdering children, police officers, passerby, even the imbecile gunners themselves, whoever.

Gunners have to be the stupidest motherfuckers on the planet.

EC

(12,287 posts)
30. So he openly admits to dealing with criminals
Wed May 29, 2013, 11:21 AM
May 2013

and traffickers and will continue? Isn't there something criminal in that somewhere?

Response to bowens43 (Reply #31)

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
33. I think more corporate CEOs
Wed May 29, 2013, 08:39 PM
May 2013

should be encouraged to belly up to the bar and speak truth. The truth is simple: Corporations exist to maximize profits and externalize costs, regardless of the social or environmental consequences. When such organizations dictate the status quo, were fucked.

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