These posts about "Minors" pissed me off

[HockeyMom]

It seems to me that a LOT of parents don't want to let go of their CONTROL.

Let me first state that I am 64 years old and raised two daughters who are now adults aged 29 and 34. Me? I graduated HS at 17. I was hired out of school at the headquarters of an International Corporation in NYC. Why did they hire a MINOR? Should my PARENTS have any say on this? After I was hired, I moved out. MINOR? Should my PARENTS have stopped me? I was SELF-SUPPORTING. Minor, Minor, MINOR!!!! Ask parents PERMISSION?????

My own older daughter skipped a grade in school. She turned 17 in February of her Senior year. MINOR when she graduated also. You DO AS WE SAY? Nope. She was out of HS and could do what she wanted as far as we were concerned. End of story. Her life, and we as her parents were not about to CONTROL what she did after HIGH SCHOOL.

I know what some will say. About Freshman and Sophomores. Well, 17 year old JUNIORS, and even some 17 year old SENIORS, are still legally Minors, as are COLLEGE Freshmen, and WORKING "Minors". CONTROL your kids lives? Give it UP. You can't. You will have a far better relationship with them if you learn to LET THEM GO.

[JVS]

1. Parents have a duty to protect their children. Letting your 14 year old get fucked isn't...

living up to that duty.

[Taverner]

21. Yeah, abstinence ONLY! The choice of informed progressives everywhere!

[JVS]

35. Nice strawman.

[Matariki]

106. How is sticking with the discussion a "strawman"?

More like tossing out "nice strawman" in response to a legitimate argument is the strawman. Or is that a meta-strawman?

[JVS]

113. Look up strawman.

Attacking abstinence only sex education where it has not been advocated is a strawman.

[Matariki]

125. No, the point is that some 14 year olds will have sex

parents can't control every waking moment of their childrens' lives unless they lock them in a tower or something.

Abstinence only sex education doesn't keep 14 year olds from having sex, but it leads to them having irresponsible sex.

You are grasping at straws trying to call the comment a strawman. I'd suggest you don't actually know what the word means.

[JVS]

126. Still a strawman. It addresses a statement I didn't make. And your point sucks.

Some kids are going to do any number of things. Some kids are going to have guns, at 14 even. As we've seenfrom several cases recently some kids are going to participate in gang-rapes. That still doesn't make it something that a parent needs to permit.

[FrodosPet]

38. Perhaps the age of consent should be birth

Because kids are going to fuck whether we like it or not, so why should anyone's life be screwed up over it?



Is there ANY room to promote abstinence as THE most effective way (100%) to avoid pregnancy and STDs, so long as the reality of non-abstinence (birth control and disease avoidance) is also taught?

[LadyHawkAZ]

128. Yes, but as you see in these threads, people don't want it

Even our "progressive" site is now promoting abstinence-only, no alternatives. Gawd help us, we're willing even here at DU to tar and feather a teenage girl and feed her to the prison industrial complex rather than admit our attitudes toward teen sex might be the root of the goddamn problem. People pay lip service to the idea of comprehensive sex ed and contraceptive access, but when it comes down to the wire it's straight back to the ol' aspirin between the knees.

Here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0064TQDG6/ref=oh_d__o00_details_o00__i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

This is a really good comparison study of Dutch and American attitudes and actions toward teen sex and an analysis of the results.

If you don't care to buy the book, here's the super-compressed oversimplified missing-tons-of-important-data-from-the-book article-length version:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/opinion/sunday/24schalet.html?_r=0

I need to start trashing these threads. The bloodlust for an ordinary teenage girl doing ordinary teenage things is giving me hives.

[FrodosPet]

129. Abstinance only does ignore the reality of teen behavior

Nevertheless, I do hope that it doesn't go too far the other way into "virgin shaming". I honestly believe that teens should be taught that sex can be a beautiful expression of love, or it can be an ugly, selfish manifestation of manipulation with emotional heartbreak, pregnancy, and disease as potential consequences. They should be taught they have the right to wait, and to not sleep with someone they don't want to sleep with.

[LadyHawkAZ]

130. I agree completely n/t

[justiceischeap]

68. If that's the standard, then a lot of parents are failing

14 yr olds and younger get fucked everyday. Does it make it right? No, but it is reality. I suspect "back in the day" 14 yr olds were getting fucked too. Hell, when this country started if a girl was 14 and wasn't considering marriage in some cases, she would be an old maid at 16. Does that make it right? Hell, no but it was reality.

Shit happens that is beyond our control as soon as we open our eyes every morning.

[JVS]

93. A lot of parents suck. That's no surprise.

[Ed Suspicious]

102. Spoken like a teenager. You have no adolescent children I presume? nt

[justiceischeap]

110. No, I don't have any adolescent children or children of any kind

I've decided to do the world a favor and not pass on my genes. That doesn't make what I said any less a reality. I know plenty of people who do have children and I was once a child too. I know what we did when we left the house and weren't around adults. I doubt much has changed since then.

[Ed Suspicious]

111. It's amazing the transformation one's attitude makes when one is tasked with bringing a few little

ones up right. I held a different perspective as well before I became a parent.

[justiceischeap]

112. I'd like to think my parents brought me up right

but I witnessed what my friends were doing when I was a kid. We weren't bad kids per se but we definitely did things I still haven't told my parents about and I'm in my 40s now. As we can all agree, children, especially teenagers, don't always exercise the best judgement even though they think they are at the time. That often means having sex before one is ready or saying you'll be one place, so you can be another, or running away from home or any other number of things that leaves adults shaking their heads, forgetting what it was like when we were kids.

[Drale]

2. The answer that always bugs me is "well its the law"

like every law is right and everything is so black and white. Right now Citizens United is the "law" of the land but I'm pretty sure 100% of people here, who are not trolls, will agree that its not right. The fact is every case must and should be taken in context and two high school students no matter the age that are dating and in a relationship in which neither side is getting hurt physically or mentally should not be a crime in any way shape or form.

[leftyohiolib]

11. yea really who needs laws let's just let everyone do what they "feel" is right or what "makes sense"

to them.

[oldhippie]

34. Yeah, those pesky laws are really just guidelines ...

... and we should each decide to obey them or not depending on whether we feel they are right. Otherwise we might turn into a nation of laws or some such silly thing, instead of a nation of men (or women).

[LanternWaste]

57. Or a nation who drives an average of 3.5 miles over the posted speed-limit...

"Otherwise we might turn into a nation of laws or some such silly thing..."


Or a nation who drives an average of 3.5 miles over the posted speed-limit as many people feel that the arbitrary standard is an ineffective reflection of our cultural mores...

The horror. The horror...

[zeemike]

62. Yep...sex with a 14 year old is just like speeding.

Well really it is...speeding up childhood...
And that is no worse than going 3.5 miles over the speed limit.
And I guess fucking kids under 14 is just like doing 50 in a 30 zone of something like that.

[WinkyDink]

45. Really? And you can speak to the mental health of children, can you?

[Drale]

50. As someone who went through the mental health system

throughout my teens I think I can speak for the mental health of teens much better then you yes.

[AtheistCrusader]

56. This is about the legal understanding of CONSENT.

Sex is a side issue. Consent laws (to contract, etc) are protections for children against predatory corporations. JUST SIGN HERE, free money, no obligations!*

(*We own your ass)

The inclusion of sexual contact in consent protections also covers against various predators.

Most of the examples in the OP can be covered by things like emancipation, a legal process where a minor can 'go live' before society normally recognizes a minor's full set of rights and responsibilities.


I agree that the two people in the case in question should be evaluated IN CONTEXT. That said, the parents also had a legal duty to report it to the police. As did the teacher that discovered it. These are automatic legal processes. Sucks, but a jury will likely dismiss/nullify that case.

[DallasNE]

72. The Basketball Coach Sought Out The Younger Girls Parents

Following a practice and alerted them, details not known, and following that the parents confronted their daughter who ended up running away from home. Contacting the parents was right. The basketball coach probably should have contacted the school counselor on how to proceed and a better outcome may have come out of this. That is water under the bridge but hopefully lessons are learned.

Nothing has been reported regarding what the parents did when their daughter went missing. Did they make a missing person report. If they did one would think that the first person police would have called was the girlfriend. (The 18 year old returned her home the next day). How did that go.

Next the police set up a "controlled phone call" where the younger daughter called her girlfriend where the parents and police listened in on the recorded call and had her read questions from a script and concluded with "how did that make you feel". Objection. Leading questions like this and secretly recording phone calls are both improper at best. (Laws applying to land line and cell phone calls are different, incredibly, just as paper and electronic data are treated differently). This is where things started to go off the track and means the younger girl is now at risk (she already ran away once) so both girls lives are being ruined. Why?

[AtheistCrusader]

86. That's not the OP's point, and your line of question is not germane to the general consent idea.

Your questions are better suited about the thread related to that specific case, not this thread about consent laws/age. There is probably better/more specific info there.

I cannot answer your questions, except add one point to your first question. The coach was actually legally obligated to report to the police, not the parents. So that was probably a mistake, per my understanding of the letter of the law. (Perhaps the coach did both?)

Speculation: The 14 year old may not have been missing the official window required to file missing persons report (24h, yes?)

I would need to know the specific state's laws regarding Wiretapping to answer the last question. In my state, that entire call is garbage, and inadmissible. In some states, that is permissible.

[DallasNE]

88. Here Are A Couple Of Official Reports

One is the Arrest Affidavit and the other is the Indian River County Case Report summary.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2013/images/05/25/indianriverreport.pdf

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=564_1369419007

[AtheistCrusader]

89. The affadavit is unclear if there was one or two

incidents of running away. The first specified sounds like less than 24h so no missing persons report. (Bottom of page 3)

The incident is referred to again, or a second incident at the bottom of page 4.

[truedelphi]

3. When my son was fifteen he was sought out by a company

That wanted his help over the summer. He spent most of the summer jumping through red tape hoops to get employment, as the "law" existed to protect him.

Of course, some 30% of the kids hat work in California don't need to do that - they are not documented and so are not stopped by those laws. So it is just middle class, born in America offspring that have to suck it up to those laws.

[HockeyMom]

6. That NYC corporation didn't ask my PARENTS Permission

to hire me as a 17 year old Minor. I had the qualifications they wanted, so they hired me. Should they have asked my PARENTS permission since I was a Minor?

[WinkyDink]

46. Frankly, the answer is YES. SORRY it's not YOUR answer.

[Yo_Mama]

115. Uh, under the law currently, yes.

Federal law stems from the GD era:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labor_laws_in_the_United_States

State laws differ - if federal law is more restrictive then federal law overrides the state law.

Currently in NY there aren't many restrictions on hiring 17 year olds as long as they have working papers. That would cover a HS grad.

However, the parent or guardian would have to sign off for the 17 year old to get working papers, even though the 17 year old had graduated.

http://www.labor.state.ny.us/workerprotection/laborstandards/workprot/wphmpg.shtm

[HERVEPA]

40. Ah, poor middle-class Americans.

SO disrespected.

[truedelphi]

55. justice is justice is justice.

And when any group of people starts to sneer at another, as a way of getting back at what they perceive as injustices done to them, then it is not surprising that there is a backlash against that group.

Allow a rampant open border policy and then have the group that receives that privilege being allowed to sneer at the middle class, when it wasn't the middle class that caused the policies that created the need to move here, but the Upper One Percent, and you are creating several generation's of traumatic interaction.

[HERVEPA]

87. Illegal immigration is way down, by the way.

[truedelphi]

134. You do realize my original statement was not an attack on

people here from other countries, don't you?

It was an attack on the "nanny state" that doesn't let people handle their own children in their own way. And according to the laws that exist regarding teenagers' employment, the rich are not hassled - they own companies, and if their child wants to work there, the child can without any documentation being submitted, as teens are always allowed to work in a family-owned business. And the poor work under the table very often, so they aren't hassled either - it ends up being the middle class that has to abide by all this crap legislation.

[DiverDave]

132. I went to work at 14, got a special work permit from the state.

since I would be with my mom, working at the same restaurant.
Our case was a bit different, we needed the extra money I could bring home.
Not really all that different then going and picking strawberry's, then cherry's, then green beans, that was what all my brothers and sister and cousins did every summer since I was 9 or 10.
all under the table, but watched all the time by my granny and aunts, sometimes ma, when she had a day off.
We DID get to spend a little of our money at the county fair every year.
But mostly we bought our own school clothes and supplies with the money we made.
I thought every body did it that way until I met guys, and girls, in junior high that didnt have to work at all.
To us they were well off.

[msanthrope]

4. When your daughters were 14, did you let them go sleepover with their boyfriends?

No? Yes?

[HockeyMom]

16. My older daughter was a lesbian

and had sleepovesr with her "girlfriends", but since she was a year young for her grade, all her friends were at least a year older. My younger daughter dated a boy who was 2 and a half years younger: Freshman/Junior and Sophomore/Senior. My daughter turned 18 year old 6 months before he turned 16. His DAD liked it, but I think that was macho Dad, and denial. The boy came out in college is now engaged to a man at 26 years old. Sorry, Dad, you CANNOT STOP THAT.

If you have an OPEN and GOOD relationship with your children, none of this will be an issue. They will TELL YOU. Been there, done that. I have also seen it with OTHER PARENTS when my kids were Minors.

[leftyohiolib]

32. if she wasnt gay would you let your 14 year old child have sex with an 18 yeaR old man

[leftyohiolib]

84. that's what i thought the response would be

[msanthrope]

39. At 14? nt

[markpkessinger]

127. Why does that surprise you?

People are sexual beings from birth. They don't magically emerge as such at puberty. What develops is their expression of their sexuality. I knew well before puberty that I was attracted to members of the same sex. At age 10, I would have acted on that attraction very differently from when I was older, but I certainly had a pretty strong sense of who I was, and was not, attracted to.

[msanthrope]

133. I think you misapprehend my question.

I am not surprised that a 14 year old would want to be sexual...but astonished that a parent of said 14 year old would agree to sleepovers where sex was going on.

[DallasNE]

75. The 14 Year Old Ran Away From Home

So "let them" is not involved. Not clear is why the parents didn't contact the girlfriend to see if she knew the whereabouts of their daughter. It doesn't seem they filed a missing persons report because I would think the first person the police would have contacted was the girlfriends family.

The 18 year olds parents have said that they were aware they were dating but not that the relationship was physical. As it turns out they needed to be a little less trusting and asked better questions.

[rl6214]

5. Just because you graduated from HS doesn't mean you are mature enough

To be treated as an adult or handle your own life. A line needs to be set somewhere and it is at 18, normally right around the age you graduate from HS, can get a full time job and support yourself. Get over it.

[HockeyMom]

12. I didn't turn 18 until 6 months after HS

so my parents should have DICTATED what I did until that time? Suppose they wanted me to go to college, which they did? I REFUSED. I wanted to WORK to leave home. STOP a HS graduate who wants to work if parents disagree? I have never heard of a company that REQUIRES parental permission for a minor to work, especially after graduation. I didn't need it, and neither did my daughters. I never signed ANYTHING when my kids were Minors when they got jobs.

Again, you parents want CONTROL of your children.

[rl6214]

19. So you wait until you are 18 to move out

Or you get your parents to allow you to work and move out. Works all over the country now. My youngest just turned 18 and is graduating in two weeks. He's an adult and his life is now his. I don't tell him what he has to do but he still abides by my requests.

At 15 you need parental,permission to work. Try getting an apartment at 17. It's not about control, it's about respect for your parents.

[HockeyMom]

24. I did get an apartment at 17

and in Manhattan. Tell that to Bristol-Myers who paid me enough money back then to support myself. They hired me at 17 as a HS grad. They CAN'T? Parental permission required? ROFL Mommy and Daddy must dictact what a HS grad must do?

Tell me again that isn't about control. Or maybe you need to change the ages of when all kids start school, so they will all be precisely 18 when they graduate HS.

[rl6214]

30. Where did I say they can't hire you?

Your views on this are as warped as your views on your husbands guns. I suppose you think girls/kids should be allowed to get married at 14/16 like they used to back in your day. That's child abuse. Don't like the fact that you are considered a minor until 18, get an amendment to the constitution passed that says you can be an adult at 14. Then we ll see how many kids are living on the street, working in unsafe sweat shops, being abused or being forced to live lives of poverty on food stamps, welfare or other forms of assistance.

[WinkyDink]

48. Stop the repetitiveness. WE GET IT. IN 1966 YOU GOT HIRED, AND YOUR PARENTS HAD NO SAY.

[HiPointDem]

83. i don't understand what your story has to do with the 14-year-old in this case.

[WinkyDink]

47. I'm 63. Guess what? Times have changed. That company TODAY would be in big trouble.

[elehhhhna]

66. today it's a nonissue b/c workers comp and

liability ins. generally won't allow you to employ people under 18


unless you own a restaurant

[HappyMe]

7. Hear, hear!

The other thing is it isn't like dear little Fluffy or Biff are going to ask for permission to have sex. They're just going to do it.

[cali]

8. well, this is rather silly.

not wanting your 14 year old to have sex with an 18 year old is hardly being overbearing, dear.

And I think it's weird that you think YOU know best about parenting. You've posted post after post along those lines. Give it the fuck up. YOU don't know what's best for all kids.

And btw, I was decidedly not a controlling parent.

oh, and this op is not germane to KH case.

[leftyohiolib]

17. thank-you - the hypocritical nonsense that sometimes goes on on this board is blinding

[L0oniX]

9. Ya ain't gonna change em if you wait till they are teens to try.

[Mr. X]

10. 17?

The minor posts are about a girl aged 14, not 17.

[The Link]

13. Did they move out when they were 14?

Jesus.

[demwing]

14. Unless a teen has been emancipated

the parents are legally responsible for their child's well being AND behavior.

Till my son turned 18, he needed my permission for most events, and received my feedback (wanted or not) on most decisions. Now that he's 18, he's free to do as he wishes. I hope the process of working through issues helped him learn to do so on his own.

Why does this piss you off so much?

[HockeyMom]

18. Why should a 17 year old HS Grad

need their parents permission to get a full time job after graduating? Or move out if they have the means to pay the rent? Do you object to that? My parents didn't and they were born in 1919 and 1920. Are we going backwards in time?

Let your children grown up!!!!

[Throckmorton]

25. Let your 17 year old cause a serious accident,

Then tell me how "Let your children grown up!!!! " worked in civil court.

[HockeyMom]

119. Living in Manhattan I didn't drive

NOW the age to get a license in NYC is 18. Try again.

[Throckmorton]

124. OK, I wasn't aware that auto accidents were the only ones a minor could be sued for.

What a relief, I'll cancel my liability insurances.

NOW the age to get a license in NYC is 18. is it, thats not what the NY DMV website says:http://www.dmv.ny.gov/youngerdriver/grad-nyc.htm

[FrodosPet]

42. I had to have parental permission to join the Navy at 17

And I had to have "working papers", signed by my dad, to get a restaurant job at 16. Are things different in New York?

[HockeyMom]

120. Apparently so

Yes, when our daughter, born 1979, wanted to join the Military after HS graduation, we had to sign, BUT without her signature, they couldn't take her with just our signature. Parents say Yes, and Child says No? No deal. Do you really think parents say yes to Military, a 17 year old must go?

17 and GRADUATED HS? No parental permission. Not just me, but our daughter too.

[truedelphi]

54. We have gone backwards in time.

We really have.

[wercal]

81. Do you realise how absurd this sounds?

"Or move out if they have the means to pay the rent?"

You know what? Some ten year olds have enough money to pay rent (think child stars).

But its obviously not proper for them to move out.

Now, the line has to be drawn somewhere...so what is it - 10, 12, 15....where do you draw the line?

Collectively, we have drawn the line at 18. Now its not an inflexible line - you can emancipate your children if you like. So if you're real bent out of shape about it, you have some flexibility.

[HockeyMom]

82. Our 17 year old older daughter enlisting in the Military

After HS graduation in 1996 (not 47 years ago), she wanted to enlist in the Air Force. Yes, since she wasn't 18 we her parents had to give our permission, BUT she also had to sign on the bottom line even as a Minor of 17. She had 6 weeks to sign her enlistment. She changed her mind and refused to do so despite a lot of "encouragement" on the part of the Military.

So since we as her parents had signed her up, why wasn't it a done deal? Why did she as a Minor still have to sign? They could not take her in the Military either without our permission, or her's. Isn't it not legal for a Minor to sign a contact? Since as her legal guardians who had signed that contract, why couldn't the Military just take her without her signing that contract?

Think about that one parents, who think they have ultimate control.

[Ed Suspicious]

104. It's not about "ultimate control", it's about providing a safe environment for children to become

young adults.

You hear all the time about how parents need to take more responsibility in raising their children right. I don't find it particularly dissonant that a parent would educate a child about birth control and how to get it while at the same time extolling the virtues of abstaining from risky behaviors. A bad parents says "fuck it, the kid is gonna do it anyway so why bother?." A good parent helps the kid learn to make good choices and actively seeks to limit exposure to situations in which danger can reside. We open up as we go. You know, I guess I wouldn't be particularly shocked to find out my 17 year old engaged in sex, but I wouldn't condone it. When my 14 years old engages, I actively seek to limit opportunity and intensively work to educate and encourage good choice making. The standard evolves as an adolescent approaches adulthood. Those arguing for 14 year old sexual agency seem to be the one's drawing the hard lines. They seem to be the ones content with allowing their children to be at risk. I'm not one to find that risk to be acceptable. So it goes.

[Yo_Mama]

117. Well, it's the law NY that they do

And parents are legally responsible for that 17 year-old, so if the young person is doing something they shouldn't, the parent can get slapped with a lawsuit. Unless legally emancipated, that 17 year old can't sign a legally binding lease for an apartment or a car. That should tell you something.

Current law in NY State requires a parent or guardian to sign working papers even if the 17 year-old has graduated high school. There's no other disability except for some "risky" jobs.

And as for a parent who wouldn't - which would be rare - I'd think said parent had a damned good reason, like a parent struggling with a kid with a drug or alcohol problem, or a parent who was willing to pay for said kid to go to classes at a place of higher education.

I think 17 year-olds who have graduated and are mature should be allowed to work full time in most circumstances, but most aren't all.

But does this have much to do with a 14 or a 15 year-old kid? There's a huge difference between most 17 year olds and most 14 year olds. In NY State, a 14 year old can get working papers, but occupations are limited, and hours are very limited (after school and during vacations).
http://www.labor.state.ny.us/workerprotection/laborstandards/workprot/wphmpg.shtm

Is that wrong? Is it wrong that NYS has set up age limitations for working and driving to prevent kids from missing their education and to protect other drivers from their immaturity? Our laws recognize the principle that younger teens should be prevented from consenting to many activities based on the idea that they can't meaningfully and fully consent because they don't have the full capacity to understand their actions.

Of course, younger teens can apply to a court for emancipation.

[HockeyMom]

20. So after I, or my daughter, graduated HS at 17

we needed to go to Court to be emanicpated? That is stupid. How many kids graduate HS at 17?

[demwing]

22. why are you so angry?

I don't care what you do, or wish to change your life in any way.

You ar5e not a teen, and have no teen children. You are not at this moment, personally affected by anyone's opinion on this issue. You talk about letting your kids go, but maybe you should concentrate on letting this issue go?

[AtheistCrusader]

58. Yes, you do.

The law isn't predicated upon the minor possessing a high school diploma. You're upset about age based requirements and would substitute another bullshit arbitrary requirement? What about the working poor, trying to survive WITHOUT a high school diploma? You want an exception for your kid, but not theirs? What was your point about HS graduation?

[dems_rightnow]

15. How do you decide which words to make all caps?

It's interesting.

[Sheldon Cooper]

37. ...

[bravenak]

23. A 14 year old is not 17.

14 year olds are easily manipulated by older teens. If the relationship is so important they can wait to have sex. I did and I'm thankful that my mother didn't let me date until I was 16. A 14 year is not old enough to know better that's why it's up to the parents to help guide them. It's their job! Parents are also responsible for the things their kids do until they are 18. Unless they are emancipated.

[HockeyMom]

27. Emancipated = Court

How many 17 year olds in this country do that? Even thouse who have graduated HS.

[bravenak]

33. Without emancipation you are still in the custody of your parents or legal guardian.

If a 17 year old screws a 12 year old is that okay? How about a 13 year old and and a 17 year old? The problem is the age gap. An 18 year old can have sex with a 16 year old and its not illegal. I remember being 14 and having seniors trying to manipulate me into having sex. I felt pressured and almost gave in.

[HockeyMom]

60. How about a 17 year old and a 20 year old?

NEITHER under their parents roofs?

[bravenak]

76. 17 year olds are able to legally consent.

It doesn't matter who's roof they live under.

[DallasNE]

92. Age Of Consent Varies By State

For roughly half the States it is set at 18 with Florida being in that group. In Nebraska it is 19. Some States have Romeo and Juliet provisions and those come in two flavors. When there is only a 3-4 year difference there is some forgiveness. In Florida it is still rape (they use a fancy name) but if the younger person "consented" the older person's name is stricken from the sex offender register. When that person is under 18 that consent must come from the parent and they are often in no mood to be forgiving, as is the case here. There was a recent case in California where a Judge threw out the charges saying proceeding with the case served no useful purpose, showing the uneven nature of "justice" in cases like this.

[tammywammy]

96. Nebraska is 17

Nebraska

The age of consent in Nebraska is 17.

Section 28-319 Sexual assault; first degree; penalty. (1) Any person who subjects another person to sexual penetration...(c) when the actor is nineteen years of age or older and the victim is at least twelve but less than sixteen years of age is guilty of sexual assault in the first degree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America#Nebraska

[DallasNE]

118. MY Bad

I read an article that singled out Nebraska as 19 and didn't independently verify it -- always an issue with the Internet.

[arely staircase]

85. 17 is the age of consent in texas

a 17 year old could hook up with a 70 year old. creepy, but legal

[Fuddnik]

63. Fuck, I know a 61 year old still living with his parents.

Never did get emancipated.

[Wait Wut]

26. Not all 17 year olds are the same.

Neither are all 14 year olds. Or 70 year olds. I can't/won't judge all children based on my experiences or those with my son. My son is perfect and better than your kids. See how that sounds? It's pretty offensive, isn't it? If you had approached me when my son was a teen and said this to me I probably would have told you to go to hell. I was far from a controlling parent, but he did need to ask my permission to stay out all nite. I'm a parent. I worry.

A truly independent teen may not need to ask permission, but they value their parents opinions. My son is 30, he still asks for my advice...on damn near everything.

[HockeyMom]

29. I didn't ask my parents permission for anything

because I didn't have a good relationship with them. My kids didn't ask permission, but told me what they were doing whether I asked or not. They still do at 29 and 34, and actually it BUGS me. Do whatever the hell you think is right.

[HERVEPA]

41. It bugs you that your kids ask your opinios and talk to you about their life???

[Wait Wut]

43. I didn't know how to read that.

I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt and say she didn't mean it to sound like it did. I hope.

I love the fact that my son asks for my advice. His wife calls me for advice now, too. It makes me feel less useless.

[HERVEPA]

49. Yeh. My kids also. Doesn't mean they always take it, but do value my opinion.

Not sure how else one could take what she said.

[a la izquierda]

135. Wow, I hope I don't bother my mother...

By asking her advice at age 35. I haven't lived at home in 13 years, but I still value my mom's opinion and insight.

[loyalsister]

28. My dad hired his 16 yr. old brother for his construction biz

He cleaned bricks with a hammer for a nickle per brick. When he wanted to go to his graduation ceremony my dad wouldn't let him off work.
Adults have the power to pull strings to their will and their motives and practices can be severely damaging. 17 olds and sometimes even older need legal protection from people like my dad. My uncle wasn't the only minor to go through that work system.

I'm glad things worked out in your case, but it is an undeniable fact that even older minors should be protected by laws. There are more adult predators than people want to believe.

[Skidmore]

31. I raised to children, a boy and a girl.

My daughter will be 40 next year and my son just turned 33 a couple of days ago. When they were in their teenage years, I definitely wanted some control over what they did and who they associated with since I was the party who was ultimately legally responsible for the fallout of any immature decisions they made. Fortunately, we got through the teen years relatively unscathed. However, the other caveat was that as long as they lived in my home and I was assuming financial responsibility for them, I expected a minimum number of house rules to be observed in regard to care and maintenance of the home. My daughter stayed at home until she was in her early 20s, my son left at 19. Both are good, responsible adults. At age 14 they certainly were not given permission to just do anything they wanted whenever they wanted to. Those children were my responsibility, and I took that responsibility seriously.

[randome]

36. Sorry but not everything is about your experiences.

Parents do have the right to have a say in their children's lives. What's so hard to understand about that? The law can't be constructed to accommodate every possible family permutation there is.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[WinkyDink]

44. Wow. Why this rant about " PARENTAL CONTROL"? I've seen only threads about the LAW.

You don't like the law, call your legislators.

[olddots]

51. is adolescense a concept ?

The are ten year olds that are more mature than 80 year olds , we have come up with laws that will never be perfect except for being perfectly imperfect .

[Ed Suspicious]

108. Yeah, I'm not sure how you judge maturity, but apart from very low functioning individuals, 10 year

old children do not have the breadth of experience and accumulated wisdom to temper one's understanding of life to trump the maturity level of an 80 year old.

I'm sorry but I keep seeing this flavor of statement and it is patently imbecilic.

[demwing]

52. Well people who get pissed off, piss me off

ACK. I've entered a logic loop - AND THAT PISSES ME OFF EVEN MORE!

[Logical]

53. Wow, no words! You don't get it! n-t

[LittleBlue]

59. Agreed. Sadly many parents are the Kyle's mom types

YOU DID WHAT WHAT WHAAAAAT?

Hell, that 18 year old girl is still what many of them would consider a child, and they're willing to ruin her life because THINK OF THE CHILDREN.

And so many parents wonder why their children move away and don't call them.

[HockeyMom]

64. Thank you

My husband fought in Nam at 17 and could have died, yet was still a CHILD by so many of today's parents. If you can fight for your country, or support yourself, you are not a child at 17, and you don't need an court order to say so.

Then they wonder why their adult children in their 20s and 30s are still living with them? Let them make mistakes. It is a part of growing up, and hopefully they will learn from that. Stop babying them.

That is why when my kids at 29 and 34 ask me over and over what to do, I tell them no more. Make up your own minds and live with your choices. People don't understand that. Personally, I would rather fail and learn from my own mistakes, than let somebody else makes decisions for me. Too many today don't understand that.

Maybe it's my generation. Maybe it's just that I grew up in NYC.

[LittleBlue]

73. Good point

People have to make mistakes to understand how things work. The longer children are sheltered from learning these lessons, the less capable they will be as adults.

My dad told me things that later I would find to be true, but I didn't realize they were true until I had made the same mistakes he had. Some things can only be learned from experience and not through teaching.

Some parents do not want their children growing up because they prefer their children in the infant stage rather than the adult stage.

[Sissyk]

61. You sure do get pissed off a lot.

Guess what? My son lived in our house until the turned 21. Guess what else? As long as he lived there, he followed our rules. Didn't once complain. Worked his way thru college while staying with loving parents. what a shame!

Sounds like you were ready to knock yours out the door on their 18th bday

[Motown_Johnny]

65. It isn't 1967 anymore

the world was different when you were 17



But if parents want to allow their children to move out and support themselves before the age of 18 then that should be their right. Also, if they want to continue to keep their children at home until they reach legal adulthood that should also be their right.

Your life, 47 years ago, is not a template for all 17 year old Americans in 2014.

[Sheldon Cooper]

69. Seriously.

The next thing you know she'll be telling everyone to get off her lawn.

[Motown_Johnny]

70. I wouldn't go that far.

Everyone has a right to his or her opinion.

[jeff47]

74. And that's not a good thing.

(In this particular area. There are other areas where it is a good thing)

[HockeyMom]

79. My younger daughter was 17 years old 12 year ago

NOT 47 years ago. LONG time ago?????

[LostOne4Ever]

67. I can only imagine how you feel about pit bull threads

Seriously though, 14 sounds a bit young for people to be getting sexually involved with anyone. Part of being mature is knowing the law and how the world will react. The two girls should have at least waited till the younger child was at the age of consent at least.

The fact that they could not recognize that, implies to me that neither girl was mentally mature enough for that sort of relationship. They could have continued dating and just not gotten physical till the other girl was 16.

[HockeyMom]

80. My point is the difference between 17 and 18

Too many people seem to think that 17 years 364 days is a major difference between 18 years and 0 days. That is the point. There is nothing magical between one day and the next.

[Ed Suspicious]

109. You really seem to be missing the point on the age issue. As children age, we as parents loosen the

reins. Your philosophy seems to be an anything goes sort of thing. That's ok for you I guess, but don't mistake my position as anything other than me as a parent actively engaging in a gradual shift of responsibility from myself to my child now becoming young adult.

[LadyHawkAZ]

71. Yep, it's a control issue

I've had the conversation before- in 1988 when Becky Bell died and the push to allow minors access to abortion began. The conversational tone then was the same one we're seeing here, now; "yes, it's a tragedy what happened to that girl, but if we remove pregnancy as a consequence then MY child might think it's OK to have sex... I'd rather these kids die than let them think that.". Birth control and condom dispensers for teens- exact same conversation again. Good luck getting anyone to even think about it though, much less admit it.

I tried to teach my daughters that it was their decision when they were ready, and that readiness was up to them, no one but them- to be made without regard for what anyone else wanted and this principle was to apply to every encounter throughout their lives. I thought this was common-sense teaching. Apparently the correct course of action was a chastity belt and abstinence-only. 21st century "progressive" values.

[Demo_Chris]

77. Fortunately, as a righteous champion of public decency I know what's morally best for everyone. nt

[enki23]

78. I don't get what all the offended parties are on about either, on this issue

1. The girl was not coerced
2. The two girls were high-school peers.
3. The age gap between them was small.
4. One would have to be a useless asshole as to say that a kid is a sexual predator who is 18 and 0/365ths when she has sex with another who is 17 and 364/365ths. This establishes that the gap in age is an important factor in our thinking about this, and not merely the necessarily-arbitrary age cutoffs so many people throw around like stupid fucking slogans. "And ADULT and A MINOR" would apply to my case too, by the definitions applied. This isn't a case where the definitions are very fucking helpful.

5. Since any reasonable person would recognize that specific age differences matter, or ought to matter, what we are left with is to decide whether this particular age gap is egregious enough to warrant the responses.

So, do people honestly think the difference in ages, along with all the other factors involved, merit the very serious consequences that are threatened against the older girl?

Note: yes, this would apply even if the older child was a male. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that there have been many, many instances of older high school males dating, and otherwise romancing younger high school females in that very same school with age differences at least that great. If there was no coercion, or lack of consent, none of those should be issues for the goddamned courts.

And no, none of that applies to older adults, with larger age differences, or older people in positions of significant power over the younger. Those are exactly the circumstances for which the law ethically exists.

[Iggo]

90. ...

...

[olddots]

91. I'm the father of two daughters aged 28 and 31

I still don't think they're old enough for sex .

[bike man]

94. Perhaps the numbers come into play here. SOME, but not all, minors can succeed/survive/thrive on

their own - but certainly not all.

SOME, but not all, people who smoke notice little or no ill effects to their health. SOME, but not all, people who drink and drive never cause an accident.

It's the numbers. MANY, but not all, minors are not prepared to be on their own while still a minor.

[muriel_volestrangler]

95. So you're saying the 18 year old should be treated as any other adult

because that's above the age you specify - 17. So, to you, this situation is about whether 14 year old girls should have sex with adults, and it wouldn't matter to you if that was 17, 27 or 57. Yes?

So, are you OK with 57 year olds having sex with 14 year olds? Would you consider it a legal matter?

[One_Life_To_Give]

97. Minor status exists to protect children

So when your 17yr old signs a purchase agreement at the local car dealer without really understanding it. The contract is Void since they are a minor. Same when some military recruiter gets them to sign on the dotted line.
I am ten years younger and I recall needing papers filed through the High School to work. At under 16 hrs were limited to 8hrs/day 48hrs/week. Under 18 couldn't work past 10PM? on a school night? 11PM weekends? Couldn't operate machinery such as a trash compactor. I think many of these laws can be traced back to practices of hiring kids to work in the mills at the dawn of the 20th century. 12yr olds size made them great for oiling the machines while the mill was operating.

[HockeyMom]

99. Yes, but after graduation, those laws don't apply

As you said, they are generally meant to keep the kids in school and not having their jobs interfer with their schoolwork. Once you have graduated from HS, they don't apply. What school hours? I only had to show my employer my HS diploma and that was that. Mommy and Daddy didn't have to give me permission to work full time at 17, since I had graduated HS.

My older daughter didn't need our permission to work full time after she graduated HS in 1996 at 17 either.

[One_Life_To_Give]

100. But you can't operate machinery

Can't enlist in the Military without parental authorization.

We had to pick a easily identifiable point at which to divide the group "Minor's" from the rest of us. 18 is what our elected officials choose. Before that you can't consent to non-emergency medical procedures. Broken leg will have to wait for a parent or guardian. And technically transporting a 17yr old across state lines without parents permission is criminal.

We often overlook the trivial infractions of a Prom couple straying across a state line, etc. But the laws were put in place because there were historically issues. I can't imagine a parent telling a High School Grad they can't work at 17. But I can see a concern if he/she moved half way across the country. Need someone with medical proxy just in-case, for starters.

[HockeyMom]

98. Article about Florida's 2007 Romeo and Juliet Law

http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/romeo-and-juliet-law-offers-a-way-off-floridas-sex-offender-list/1191974

Interesting case about an 18 year old and 14 year old. There is also a strange provision in the law which allows 16/17 year olds to consent to sex with those up to 23 years old.

If you don't like two HS kids of 14 and 18, imagine a 16 year old and a 23 year old? They are certainly not "peers".

[HockeyMom]

121. Then with that 4 year difference

In this case the two girls would be ok; 18 and 14.

[Silent3]

101. After a long hard day in the mines, working hard and risking their lives...

...why shouldn't they be able to have sex with anyone they want? After taking a shower, that is.

[Zoeisright]

105. Completely wrong.

The part of the brain that informs you about the consequences of your actions isn't fully developed until age 25. Eighteen is very young to be considered an adult. Grow the fuck up.

[Marrah_G]

107. This might just be the most absurd thread I have read all month!

There should be awards for this stuff.

[kentauros]

114. Every time I see this thread-title I think of Galaxy Quest:

Sir Alexander Dane: Could they be the miners?
Fred Kwan: Sure, they're like three years old.
Sir Alexander Dane: MINERS, not MINORS.
Fred Kwan: You lost me.

[Jamastiene]

116. DU, as a whole, suffers from an extreme case of borderline personality disorder.

It has to be all one way or the other and the two sides go at each other for days on end. I'm honestly surprised people are still going at it this many days later. The fucked up thing about this high school lesbian romance turned international incident is that, on DU, there are lines drawn in the sand and the vast majority of posts have been on one side or the other. The reason I haven't said anything until now is that I am actually conflicted about this one. Yes, the law considers an 18 year old an adult (but they still can't legally drink yet). Yes, the other kid is too young under most laws to give consent. Usually, no, an adult should not be having sex with a 14 year old, but when the adult in this case just turned 18 and is still in high school, and they were going together before the adult turned 18, I have to admit, I'm conflicted.

But, the vast majority of the posts on DU about this case are all one way or the other, no middle of the road questioning posts, and no room for those of us in between the two sides to discuss it rationally. Rational went out the window on DU a long time ago.

I guess the majority on DU will not be happy until the older girl is tarred, feathered, hung and/or thrown in prison, put on the sex offenders registry list, given a felony conviction, and possibly FGM (castration) to boot. Some seem just that adamant about it.

I have a friend who has a felony conviction and is on the sex offenders registry for life because he turned 16 and was still going out with his girlfriend who was still 15. He started out as a good kid who tried his best. Now, his life is ruined, he feels like life is not worth living, and the meth has ravaged his body and mind. He never did any drugs before that conviction. I knew him. He was a good kid. 16 and 15 and he's a child molester? I don't get that one. I get many other cases and why people get so upset and agree, but when both kids are in the same school and their ages are that close, I don't honestly get why people want to punish the older one to the fullest extent of the law. Meanwhile, repeat child molesters who are much older and go after prepubescent children get out of prison and go right back to doing what they did before and some child molesters get by with what they do because they are a religious leader of some kind, but the majority in the community do not believe they would do such a thing. Their victims are deemed mentally ill and told to go seek help for daring to suggest they were molested.

This is one fucked up situation. I see what she did was pushing the line, in the eyes of the younger girl's parents and the law both, but I refuse to join the tar and feather her brigade here on DU. This case is just not that clear cut to me.

[Ms. Toad]

123. Precisely why statutory rape laws

are not good tools to address relationships between kids who are in classes and activities together in the same high school.

They don't allow any consideration of the individual circumstances in order to evaluate whether this truly was a case of a sexual predator - or a high school romance between kids who fell on opposite sides of an arbitrary age line.

[GreenEyedLefty]

131. You got to raise your kids your way, I get to raise mine my way.

I'm not going to post crowing about my amazing parenting abilities, but I am comfortable with how my kids are turning out.