The problem is that 90% of us are getting cucumbers.

[Bonobo]

Even capuchin monkeys know when they are being treated unfairly -and you can bet that this also sours relations between the two monkeys.

Want to create social discord and sow bad relations and lack of trust between group members? Treat them unfairly.

In a nutshell, this is what is behind most of the crimes in modern society and, in particular, in the US with its growing unfairness.

Just. Watch.

For the full De Wall TED Talk on morality in animals, here is the link.

http://www.ted.com/talks/frans_de_waal_do_animals_have_morals.html

PS De Waal is one of the greatest Bonobo scholars.

[galileoreloaded]

1. so are you suggesting that animals have an inherant morality?

ie: a sense of right and wrong? fairness?

curious.

[Bonobo]

3. Some absolutely do.

It has been demonstrated scientifically.

If you are interested, watch the TED talk.

[galileoreloaded]

5. i watched

i just completely disagree with the presenter.

an individual trying to get ahead is... merely trying to get ahead and place itself in a winning DNA replication position. no right or wrong without a highly developed prefrontal cortex. just is.

i encourage people to watch Stanfords Robert Sapolsky on youtube. brilliant man, and not much woo. resources are a zero sum game.

[Bonobo]

7. You think Franz De Waal is woo?

LOL, he is perhaps one of the most respected scientists and scholars in the study of primate behavior.

[galileoreloaded]

20. no, i dont think that. not sure how that got misconstrued. nt

[Shankapotomus]

12. In this video

why would the monkey share when there was nothing compelling him to in the first experiment?

[HiPointDem]

13. sapolsky is woo. your definition of 'woo' is woo.

[Bonobo]

14. I see no reason to believe that Sapolsky disagrees with De Waal

about primate altruism.

Do you have some link where Sapolsky argues against these concepts of morality in primates?

BTW, I did read Sapolsky's account of his life with baboons. It was interesting but a bit short on scientific analysis and long on cult of personality if I recall.

[Systematic Chaos]

2. All your grape are belong to us!

[Gore1FL]

4. That puts us in quite the pickle.

I would argue against the analogy, however, because the cucumber was perfectly acceptable until the grape appeared.

My sense is that 90% have less than a cucumber, 9% have cucumber, the rest have an increasing number of grapes.

[Bonobo]

6. Why does that invalidate the analogy?

Fairness, of course, only has meaning by comparing our situation with others. If the choice is cucumber or nothing, we choose cucumber.

THAT is the choice we are getting. Diminishing portions of cucumber.

Just watch out when those monkeys escape the cage. They can be vicious and dangerous in large numbers.

But I suspect if you observed the treatment of Mr. Lucky, receiver of the grapes, you would find that he loses the trust of his group.

[Gore1FL]

9. I suppose "argue against" was a poor choice of words.

I was splitting hairs a little bit over what was at least an initial satisfaction with the cucumber. Until the grape was introduced, it didn't appear to be unfair. My point was (and I think you alluded to the same thing when you said "diminishing portions of cucumber) is that when comparing the division of wealth, the sliver of cucumber would have been insulting without the introduction of the grape.

I'm splitting hairs. I get your point.

[Bonobo]

11. Thanks for clarifying that. nt

[Bonobo]

10. Ooops, wrong place. nt

[Kurovski]

8. I can never find one the right size.

[Poll_Blind]

15. From everything I've seen and read, monkeys are incredibly adept at saying "FUCK YOU!"

I either heard from an acquaintance or read somewhere that a little angry monkey will stand on your chest and piss in your face if they think you did 'em wrong. Gotta love it.

PB

[darkangel218]

18. lol! nt

[hunter]

16. Not just apes and monkeys, our dogs are acutely aware of what is "just" and what is not.

We have three dogs. If I do not follow the rules of dog social justice they stop listening to me.

[Bonobo]

17. I tend to believe you.

But I am not sure it is the same thing.

It may be that they are just learning that there are no rules for them to rely upon -that you are acting on a whim.

[ZRT2209]

19. like the them of the movie Grand Canyon

[xchrom]

21. du rec.