I'm a stay at home husband, or as I call it, a "kept man"...

[Recursion]

A few threads about female breadwinners have gotten me thinking about this, and I wanted to put in my two cents on their own terms.

Thought 1: most men in my situation do not do housework, and expect their wives to. This is probably the biggest problem. And I'll say on the men's part, it may not even be "sexism" in the usual sense; more the fact that men, in general, are more willing to put up with filth than women are. Ask yourself what an average bachelor's apartment looks like, for instance. Here, I'm lucky: I was in the Marine Corps for a decade. I don't mop; I scrub. On my knees, with a sponge. Because I will not live in a house of filth. Also, I don't just know how to cook, I love doing it (that was my first job in the Marine Corps, in fact, and I chose it deliberately). She occasionally has some secret Bengali recipe she wants to cook, but I love just making stock every few days and cooking some meat and veggies with it.

Thought 2: we do not have children, but inshallah, we will. We have had the talks about this (see thought 3) and I am not just willing but very eager to be the primary caregiver and educator. We live in an admittedly unusual situation in which she is a diplomat posted to countries where I as a trailing spouse can often not get a work permit. But I love children and I love teaching and I really do know I'll be great at that.

Thought 3: we have, since about our 4th date when we realized we were serious about one another, talked about this issue without mincing any words. I have some stuff I can do (programming, sysadmining, copy-editing, writing) that can be done wherever we are, and that's essentially just my slush fund (which ends up being gifts for her anyways). She pays for dinner, when we're out, and she pays the cell phone bill (you as taxpayers pay the rent; thank you). I can't stress how crucial this is: actually talk to your partner about issues, and that includes money and spending.

To recap: I am a male from the southern US and a veteran of the Marine Corps; I fully understand societal expectations of manhood. But I have to say, with mutual communication there is absolutely no reason a man cannot be the partner who is not the breadwinner. I'm working on my novel, I'm learning pastels, and I clean the house to a high ****ing sheen that, frankly, my spouse can't quite get (she was never a Marine, God love her).

[sibelian]

1. Sounds like the kind of life I would love...

I've never understood why people have this bizarre idea that housework is a "woman's" work. My father made sure that I knew how to polish the brass, keep the kitchen spotless, how to cook, sort the laundry, fix the wiring, clean the fire grate, keep the shoes polished, mow the lawn, change a tire, change the oil, check the radiators for leaks...

I met several men later in life who seemed to have been looked after all their lives by women with nothing asked of them. They were kind of useless.

[Lucky Luciano]

28. I definitely consider housework torture.

I hate any and all mundane tasks.

Sometimes this hurts me at work because I want to do only the interesting work while dumping the shitty mindless routine crap somewhere else. That was great at a large company, but now at a small company, I have to take on some of the garbage. Took some getting used to.

Cleaning is the worst though.

[Sheldon Cooper]

2. Thanks for your perspective.

You raise some interesting points. The housework issue is a big one, and I agree with you that many men aren't as particular about cleanliness as many women are. (I am trying not to generalize, but it's inevitable that someone will complain that I'm stereotyping them.)

I think that men aren't as conditioned to recognize and deal with dirt as women are - everything in our environment portrays the woman as the concerned party, and men as either unconcerned, or in most cases, incompetant, when it comes to dealing with dirt. Communication is vital, as you say, and both parties making their expectations known so compromises can be reached is the only way this thing will work. That goes for cases when both parties work outside the home, as well.

I hope you get your children and your chance to experience all the joy they can bring. Good luck to you!

[Recursion]

5. It's a "many" thing, I grant

And if I had not been a Marine, I probably would have been like most bachelors. The fact is, since boot camp, I simply cannot stand to live in the same building with any kind of uncleanliness. Call it an obsession or whatever, but it's something more men should pick up (I'm sure the Army and Navy are almost as good at instilling that).

My fiancee is, and I'll be very honest here, a slob. I love her deeply, but this is true. If I didn't clean things up, there would be dirty clothes on the floor, and dirty dishes in the sink every night. This isn't the voice of resentment; this is just a simple recognition of fact. I own the name "feminist" and I admire the feminist leaders of the past because thanks to them we have a situation where I can be the person who addresses those issues, while she negotiates important treaties that will guide US policy for the next several decades. Guess what: it's a great idea to keep it that way, because you sure as hell wouldn't want to reverse that, either for our dishes' sake or our treaties' sake.

[4Q2u2]

14. 23 yrs Navy Sea Bee

Sweepers, Sweepers man you brooms. Love spit shine and zero gear adrift. Clutter puts me over the edge, keeping a clean a open passageway is a must.

As to your other point about laundry and showers, remember that was also trained into you. In the field 14 days without a shower because they were not up and running. Or it rained for 10 strait days so why bother. My wife always wondered why I have 20 pairs of underwear, because laundry turn around at the FOB is not reliable.

You should make a post of all the goofy quirks that get instilled by training or the simple pleasure in life like a John Wayne Bar with home made chocolate frosting either from cocoa power of chocolate shake powder. Gourmet Field Grub at it's best.

Then maybe Civilians will understand why we are so "changed", to put it nicely.

[fitman]

36. My wife is also a total slob

Married 20 years and she has never cleaned the bathroom ever, rarely cleans house-she helps if relatives are coming over. I sweep, dust, clean the kitchen 99% of the time. The only cleaning she does is wash the dishes. I cook maybe 50% of the time and i wash all my own clothes.

Knew this going into marriage-saw her bathroom..yuck.. Bathtub had never been cleaned in her 3 years of living there..

Her mom was the same way-total slob.


My wife is great though..never bitches or nags, great lover, loves to do stuff I like and vica versa, takes care of herself..very fit and trim, very ambitious running her own business, let's me do or spend anything I want w/o permission or approval, great personality.

[treestar]

13. Reminds me of this from Jane Austen's Emma:

"Emma," said she, "this paper is worse than I expected. Look! in places you see it is dreadfully dirty; and the wainscot is more yellow and forlorn than any thing I could have imagined."

"My dear, you are too particular," said her husband. "What does all that signify? You will see nothing of it by candle-light. It will be as clean as Randalls by candle-light. We never see any thing of it on our club-nights."

The ladies here probably exchanged looks which meant, "Men never know when things are dirty or not;" and the gentlemen perhaps thought each to himself, "Women will have their little nonsenses and needless cares."

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

3. Damn, I need to find and marry a man like you! Loved this post! Kicked!!!

[Recursion]

6. That's sweet, but don't try to replicate this. You have the right solution for you, out there

Just talk with guys you date, up front, and say what you need and want. Yes, douchebags will be appalled, but let that be the early warning system. Real men like to hear that kind of thing.

[reflection]

4. What a great read and insightful piece. Thank you. n/t

[kelliekat44]

7. Not only are men willing to put up with more "filth", they are willing to wear the same underwear

for an entire week! Fewer showers, baths, clean clothes to them means less washing and ironing. And they are good at PRETENDING not to know how to do cooking and cleaning well. But they do have very intelligent fingers that know how to manipulate a remote control and hold it one hand while in rem sleep.

[Recursion]

8. OK, I'll come clean: even I do that

You caught me, fair and square. But I still do laundry, even if it's just to wash the cargo pants that go outside of that same pair of boxers. At least grant me that.

[kelliekat44]

9. ok. I'll give you that.

[MattBaggins]

23. Nice stereo type

I change my underwear twice a day and use wet wipes. I can't stand having the swamp ass.

[msanthrope]

37. Look--there's a reason underwear has two sides.

My 10 year old daughter explained this....

[Inkfreak]

10. I'm home a lot myself.

We both have good jobs, but my wife is a 9-5er. And I am a tech who's on call 24/7. I don't receive many calls in a month tho. Only about 4-5. It's a great job and pays well, but with so much time on my hands I could go crazy.

I to was in the military. So I adopted a routine of gym and then housekeeping. My wife laughs at me now. I am a fanatic about maintaining our home. And with 3 dogs it is a chore. Frankly, I enjoy it. I load my iPhone with whatever I want yo listen to and get to business.

My Mom was a single mother who was a nurse. She worked crazy hours, but every Saturday she got my sister & I to scrub our house top to bottom. After our cartoons of course. It was a valuable lesson then, tho I may not have appreciated it at the time. I take pride in my home. It's modest, yet gets complements from friends who visit.

[marions ghost]

17. What a great Mom !

--every child (m or f) needs to know the basics of housekeeping & simple cooking --and how to make it as effortless as possible. Parents who don't teach these to their kids are doing them no favors. And later when the kids get married and their spouses want help---big trouble.

IMO there is nothing more pathetic than a man or a woman who can't do the simplest maintenance level of cleaning & cooking for themselves (even if you eat out a lot). It's just personal maintenance, you don't have to be Martha Stewart. I will never forget the father of a friend who had to have his wife make a sandwich for him, and then wash his plate--what a bozo. He didn't want a wife, he wanted a slave. I have no respect for people who think others should clean up after them.

Nice that you're so ultra-tidy. I'm not actually & neither is my SO. We have pockets of clutter around the office, but one thing we do is to keep the systems, esp the water-related systems (dishes, laundry, food storage & bathroom cleanup) moving. Keep the systems operating and then you don't bog down even if you don't get to perfection as far as vacuuming & clutter control. Clutter is one thing, slime is another --is my rule of thumb. Both of us had moms who taught us to clean and cook.

[Triana]

11. Sounds like a fine life to me. If you're both happy...

...that's all that should matter.

[dixiegrrrrl]

12. Mr. Dixie was a house husband for many years

and raised his 2 girls. The mother prferred to work full time, and she was making very good money.
He is a good cook, grocery shopper and house cleaner.

years after the divorce ( had nothing to do with the house hold roles)
I am SO benefitting from all those lovely skills.

[ellie]

15. Ha! My husband is the same way

although he was never in the Marines. I do the day to day cleaning because I am home all the time (I work from home), but when the house really needs to be clean, like for the cat sitter, he does it. And he does a damn good job, too. And he is a good cook although I do all the day to day cooking.

[madokie]

16. My wife runs me out of the kitchen

I do the outside work and she does the inside work. She wouldn't have it any other way. When I try to help I get in her way, don't put shit up where she does, same as when she tries to help me with my part so we've come to the realization that I have my duties she has hers. We're both fine with that. I used to beat myself up when I first became unemployable/disabled but that didn't last too long as we both could see that would drive me to an earlier grave.
In fact I'm on my way out to clean up after the storms that came through here last night. I've got a pretty full plate.

[marions ghost]

19. Division of labor along skill lines

works well for us too We like to have our separate tasks as otherwise we both try to micromanage the other too much. It works. My sis and her hubby have to split everything right down the middle & that works for them. No one way fits all. Just as long as nobody feels oppressed.

I live with a kitchen nazi too, who happens to be male. I leave him unto himself in there. My skill level is not to his standards and like your wife, the placement of tools, dishes & appliances seems to be of critical importance.

We have this cartoon on the fridge that has two guys in a kitchen cleaning up after a dinner party and one says to the other--"I always feel a little lost in another man's kitchen."

[a la izquierda]

35. I run my husband out of the kitchen too...

Unless he's taking out trash or recycling. I love cooking. He doesn't. I cook and clean, he does the outdoors stuff. I don't do spiders...and our garage is straight out of arachnophobia.

[NewJeffCT]

18. I think there are men out there that are house husbands

but, they don't get a lot of publicity, and are not in the news very often.

My wife is also Chinese, and I think you'll also find in many Chinese households, be the husband Chinese or non-Chinese, that the husband does a majority of the housework. (Not every home, for sure. I know a Chinese woman who is a VP at Pepsi and she won't let her husband touch the laundry - though he does do most other housework.) The exception being if the wife is from Shanghai, the husband is expected to do all the housework.

[JaneFordA]

20. Huzzah and Semper Fi

You are a jewel and a gem and, maybe not "kept" but certainly a keeper! All the best to you and yours there!

[Jennicut]

21. You sound like a gem.

My husband is to put it nicely, hyperactive. He works full time, plus on the weekends is a church organist. He also has a band on the side and plays out on the weekends with his band, sometimes until 3 am. I wish he could slow down sometimes but I suppose it's part of being married to someone who has to have their creative outlets. He has been playing piano since he was a kid. Piano, keyboards, organ, bass plus sings in his band.

I work part time as a sub teacher and stayed home for the first few years after my girls were born. They are almost 8 and 9 so I am getting closer to working full time but loved the early few years staying home with them.

[Phentex]

22. I would not call you kept, you are a partner...

and I hate when someone calls a woman "kept" too.

Sometimes, it's skill set, sometimes it's personality but people have to work the situation out for themselves. I know men who love to do laundry and dishes. They enjoy vacuuming or whatever. My sister's husband is like this. However, he hates repair work and yard work. My sister loves gardening and taking care of the yard. It works for them. He stayed at home with their daughter for the first three years of her life and they were all happy.

If people divide the household as they see fit and everyone is happy, then who cares who does what? However, when one person feels taken advantage of, then there's trouble. And I don't think money should ever be a factor in determining someone's worth, but sadly that's what often happens.

[DFW]

24. I absolutely promise not to try to replicate that!

My job takes me to a different country just about every day. I am not in the diplomatic corps, but even so, we don't wear uniforms in my line of work. My wife was a social worker until she retired last year. She gave a lot more than she took, and was rewarded with being mobbed by a corrupt church official who was the overseer of her out-of-unemployment project. I'm the one who pulls in the big money in our family, no two ways about it, always have been.

My wife took time off to have and raise our daughters, but went back to work as soon as they were both in school. Cancer knocked her out for about a year, but she bounced back and is now 12 years cancer-free. She is definitely the neat(-er) one and the master chef, though I can hold my own in the kitchen.

Our younger daughter, on the other hand, is the big earner in her partnership. Her boyfriend works, too, but earns a pittance compared to her big salary as a hotshot international attorney. It all works out if there is a will to keep it together. In our family, that has stayed the one major constant through the generations.

[hamsterjill]

25. I think that's awesome!

It's wonderful that you and your spouse have communicated and worked out a situation that works right for the two of you! You are BOTH obviously very secure individuals, and that's the real secret. Finding what works for you and doing it.

Stereotypes simply take a long time to die.

I applaud you both for your commitment to one another and your understanding of each other.

[mountain grammy]

26. Great post.. My son spent 5 years in the Navy and became a neat freak..

but has definitely mellowed since he has kids. You will too, but my guess is you'll be a great dad..
How lucky you and your spouse found each other.

[northoftheborder]

27. What a treasure of a human being and man you are. Unfortunately one in a million.

[xtraxritical]

29. My father did all the cleaning, my mom did all the cooking, my brother and I did laundry

and dishes. So what? Desperate to get your name on a post?

[liberal_at_heart]

34. well there's no need to be nasty. I'm sure he is simply commenting on the comments

made by that idiot Erickson on Fox News.

[Arugula Latte]

39. This post is in part a response to this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2925792

I, for one, find it interesting to see how other people do things.

[IdaBriggs]

40. "Desperate to get your name on a post?" DU Courtesy Fail.

The discussion (which you were welcome to participate in) was about division of labor in households, and the stereotypes associated with "who is best at what."

Your comments about your family were interesting and contributed to the discussion. The impolite comment quoted above did not.

[xtraxritical]

42. Are you kidding? Are you new here?

[11 Bravo]

45. Well, I've been here 10 years longer than you have, and I agree with every word of Ida's post.

You were rude, confrontational and unnecessarily obnoxious. And, by the way, IdaBriggs has also been here way longer than you have graced us with your presence.

[DCKit]

51. Don't fuck with Ida.

She don't talk much much, but when she does, we listen. Low post count, been around for-fuckin-ever. Not a blabbermouth, like me.

My S.O. makes a great income, and I'm the "kept" husband... don't do nearly as much as I should, but I scrubbed the kitchen yesterday. I need to do better, because I'm not paying it back, or forward. We should both be living in paradise, and this post has inspired me... he deserves better than I've given him for the past eighteen years.

If you don't get it, you need to STFU.

For me, this has been a valuable thread. Fucking priceless with the responses, and especially so since I came into an inheritance - but he doesn't want anything and doesn't want me to spend a penny on him.

Try and shop for a guy like that - gave you everything, wants nothing.

When, in a fit of anger, I told my sisters that I'd got the best husband ever, I wasn't joking.

[liberal_at_heart]

30. not all of us fit the stereotype.

I'm a stay at home mom and I am a bit of a slob. My mom died when I was young. My dad worked 12 hour days. I was home alone a lot. I was depressed. I never learned how to clean. My anxiety issues also play a role. When things get real messy, I get overwhelmed. I start thinking to myself I can't clean all of this. It's too much. That creates anxious feelings which only magnify the problem. Sometimes I try to do small things, but I rarely get a lot done.

[Skittles]

47. I too struggle with cleaning

I had a stay at home mum but she really didn't want me around her much. Working 50 hour weeks also gives me an aversion to cleaning. Liberal_a_h, what I have learned is to concentrate on keeping the bathroom and kitchen up to par and the other stuff, well, when you can get to it. This works well for me.

[galileoreloaded]

31. i have always let my wife/gf pay the bills

its all in how the interaction is framed. ie:if you are feeling less a "man" then that is an antiquated view.

i get up, lift weights, hang by the pool, do a little consulting, go grab lunch, take a nap.

gf goes to work, does whatever she does there, comes home and generally makes dinner. she insists on cleaning on the weekends. shrug.

she would tell you that just having me here is worth it. its why i believe in gender equality, if lioness wants to hunt and make money, who am i to argue.

all i have to be is in shape, socially outgoing, and smarter than most people around. slam dunk. more men should try it.

[IdaBriggs]

41. You have a wife and a girlfriend paying the bills?

Are we talking "good shape" or "great shape" for such a deal?



Seriously, is there a reason you aren't married? And is she happy about it?

I am curious about the logistics and the reasoning; I am aware that many people just stay in permanent long-term relationships without benefit of wedlock, and if it works for both of them, yeah!

[galileoreloaded]

43. was married, now w girlfriend

its just not a good contract for a man to sign because, frankly you don't have to in this culture. many many many (the vast majority under 35) women no longer require or even want commitment before they will engage you in a physical relationship, and if you are attractive enough as a man, they really don't even require monogamy.

i am 38 and have 2 boys and an exwife (she lifesplit, pretty sad girl), so while more kids would be great it isn't a huge drive for me. current gf is 24 and makes a killing.

women in my circles are trending towards better jobs, much better pay, and imo hate their lives, and they readily sign up for a pleasant stable home life to counteract the disasters that they see in their careers. (especially STEM or financial jobs)

im in great shape. stay tan cleaning the pool, eat paleo, lift weights.

it works.

[kpete]

32. that was

a very wonderful post.

I absolutely love celebrating different paths!!!

kp

[southernyankeebelle]

33. I think your great and it's to bad you don't have children yet.

I would like to say if parents (both) would teach their children when they are very young to take care of their bedrooms and as they get older they help around the house. Gender neutral house work. Where everyone in the house does their part then both boys and girls would make good home makers. After all men don't automatically get married and should know how to do basic house work if they live on their own. My own husband was taught gender neutral. So he could do anything in the home. I'm lucky because he does house work better than me. Our son was taught but he was a little lazy. Now however, he got married and his wife is lazy and sleeps all day. He comes home and he ends up cooking and cleaning and doing the laundry. She quit her job and the deal was she was to hold up her end of the bargin. She hasn't and they are having problems. Marriage is suppose to be equal. But he is even a better father then she is a mother. Their daughter is closer to daddy. His wife doesn't like that.

[DCKit]

52. You make me want to be a better person.

My own S.O. deserves so much better than I've been giving.

Thanks for the wake-up.

[rl6214]

38. While never in the military, like you I SCRUB the house

I have worked in restaurants and that's just the way it's done if you want it done right. Working in restaurants I was also home during te early growth years of our kids since I worked a lot of nights. Didn't have to leave the kids at a daycare to raise them. Most of my carreer i made more than my wife even though she had the degree and i an educator. Now my wife works part time and I am 'retired' so I do all of the cooking, a lot of the cleaning and just take care of the household in general so I guess you could say I am a "kept man" as we'll.

[ashling]

44. She has some secret Benghazi recipe?

Call Darrel Issa, STAT!

.

.

.

oh,.

.

.

.

nevermind.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_Wu0246ASGw/T-oV1RLuveI/AAAAAAAAST8/qXTFQHlUeGU/s1600/Gilda+emily.jpg

[Skittles]

46. you want I should kick your kept ass, Recursion?

aw, any guy willing to keep a "high ****ing sheen house" is A-OK with me

[indepat]

48. You are obviously manly enough to man-up and pull your weight in your marriage,

something I perceive far too many wives never know based on personal observation over a 60-year period. Kudos.

[Liberal_in_LA]

49. wonderful post

[tavalon]

50. You are the stay at home partner, not the "kept man"

It's a wonderful luxury and when you have children, your children will benefit greatly from having a stay at home parent. And it doesn't matter whether it's mom or dad, it's cool when that possibility exists. That was worn away through the years by our stagnant wages.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

53. I am not a stay at home dad

but my wife is a stay at home mom and she homeschools our three girls. I consider the job that she does with our brood to be much more important than the job that I do and what she does and how she does it partly enables me to be good at what I do. Because of this arrangement, many people are dismayed when I tell them I cook and clean and maintain the yard and manage the money. They seem to think it should be her 'contribution' to our home. Sometimes I take the time to explain our duties and how they got where they are... sometimes I just laugh and say her job is much harder than mine.

I don't do all the cooking or all the cleaning but I do most. And I wouldn't have it any other way...

sP