General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMore than 86% of fatal dog attacks are done by this kind of dog:
Un-neutered males.http://www.americanhumane.org/animals/stop-animal-abuse/fact-sheets/dog-bites.html
I own 2 dogs and have many friends who also own dogs. We go to dog parks. We socialize with every type of dog. I usually rely on other owners to say whether their dog is cool with meeting other dogs, or to set any limits. A fair percentage of owners mis-read their own dog -- tail between the legs, backing up but they drag the dog forward to mine or won't let it back up -- that's when I back my dogs up and decline the greeting. A scared dog will bite more readily than a confident relaxed dog. We have all heard about "fight or flight" but many dog owners don't apply this knowledge pragmatically: if your scared dog can't 'flight' then its only option is to bite so make sure both dogs have room to back up.
When we are approaching a new dog, the second thing I look for is whether or not it is neutered. If it is NOT neutered then I don't care what the owner says, there will be no greeting. I will cross the street or do whatever I have to do to avoid contact.
( The first thing I look at btw, is the body language of the approaching dog and its owner and how long their leash is. )
Kali
(55,008 posts)Dash87
(3,220 posts)Dollface
(1,590 posts)I wonder what the percentage really is. There must be a study out there somewhere. Google awaaayyyyyy...
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Just sayin'
ErikJ
(6,335 posts)Maybe THEY need to be neutered first. ha!
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)Earth_First
(14,910 posts)Aww, how cute...a smilie which most certainly is posted knowing that you attempt to stir the pot.
:yawn:
Kali
(55,008 posts)onehandle
(51,122 posts)And before you ask, 'What kind of damage could he do?,' I will relate the time that my Grandmother's un-neutered seven pound dog, bit my cousin's bottom lip off.
The hospital sewed it back on, and she was quite beautiful last time I saw her.
shanti
(21,675 posts)one of my sons had a dog bite part of his upper lip off. yes, the docs sewed it back on, but it never looked the same again, and it wasn't beautiful. . the upper lip line is extremely difficult to match up.
can't remember if the dog was neutered or not. he was a large dog, a Plotthound (bear/boar hunting dog). my son had been teasing him. it was a "warning" bite, because he could have done much more damage if he'd wanted to. it was very traumatic!
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)>>>A scared dog will bite more readily than a confident relaxed dog.>>>>
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)KurtNYC
(14,549 posts)shanti
(21,675 posts)why people won't neuter/spay their animals...and it's mostly men who have a problem with this, in my experience. they act like it's them being neutered!
Don't get me started on this subject.
Nay
(12,051 posts)she had had a double mastectomy -- in their minds, they truly thought THEY were being deprived of something. It's ALL ABOUT THEM, it seems.
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)Ilsa
(61,695 posts)ago freaked out when I had my cat neutered. He yelled something like, "You cut off his balls!!!" really loud. Then asked me why I did the same to my female cat, claiming I should let her have the experience of having a litter.
His reaction was so freakish that I was glad to turn down an offer for another date.
that's exactly what i'm talking about!
snooper2
(30,151 posts)She's under two years old, but was in heat..
She was actually humping our Bichon
besides that though, two of my daughter's friends came over- boys age 4 and 6, stupid little Chiuaua went after them and actually bit Keaton (didn't break the skin)...
Dogs just need to be watched
narnian60
(3,510 posts)notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)A female dog humping another dog indicates dominance, it has nothing to do with sex. In fact, during a heat cycle, there is only 3 days that the female will allow a male to approach her for mating, it is during the middle of the cycle.
narnian60
(3,510 posts)that spaying or neutering causes a negative change to the pet's personality.
hamsterjill
(15,220 posts)I'm in rescue and I still hear the same old excuses all the time:
She'll get fat if she gets fixed;
She needs to have a litter of puppies/kittens first;
I want my kids to witness the miracle of birth;
She won't be the same;
I couldn't do that to HIM!
He will become a girlie wimp if they cut his balls off.
And on, and on, and on, and on!
Responsible Pet Owners have their pets fixed! End of the story.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)I really admire Bob Barker for always pushing this message and putting a ton of money toward it.
narnian60
(3,510 posts)Nimajneb Nilknarf
(319 posts)with my pet dogfish.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)of how many non-neutered males are NOT involved in any sort of attack.
So you have, what, 400 fatal attacks out of 35,000,000 male dogs. Say half of them have not been neutered. So you have an attack ratio of 400 out of 17,000,000. So you would neuter 17,000,000 because of 400?
Not to mention the apparently 8% of fatal attacks that involve female dogs or the other 6% of fatal attacks that involve a neutered male dog.
Guess what? I bet very close to 100% of fatal dog attacks involve this type of dog.
Dogs with teeth.
Get your dog's teeth removed NOW!!
The safety of America depends on it.
KurtNYC
(14,549 posts)interested in statistics. If landlords and insurance companies are not willing to look at detailed data then ALL dogs will suffer. many dogs are given up now by people who can't find an apartment that will take their dog.
Much more data here:
http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dogbites/dog-bite-related-fatalities/
Sarcasm is the least efficient form of communication.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)It doesn't seem like you are much interested in communicating.
Seems to me that with some kind of mandatory sterilization program, that ALL dogs will suffer too.
Limiting the study to fatalities seems kinda limited. Often people are more worried about being bit more than they are about being killed.
ellie
(6,929 posts)and he was extremely aggressive. He was elderly when I adopted him and I was afraid to have him put anesthesia. We could never have people over because he would lunge at them.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)for your support. Woof!
ozone_man
(4,825 posts)Percentage of all Deaths
Pit bull 52 59% Rottweiler 12 14% American bulldog 4 5% Husky 4 5% German shepherd 3 3% Doberman pinscher 2 2% Chow chow 2 2% Wolf-hybrid 2 2% Labrador 2 2% Australian shepherd 1 1% Golden retriever 1 1% Boxer 1 1% Bullmastiff 1 1% Great pyrenees 1 1% Mixed breed (undetermined) 1 1% Jack Russell terrier 1 1% Old English sheepdog 1 1% Mastiff 1 1% Presa canario 1 1% Total 93 104%
----------------
Now if you have an un-neutered, male pit bull, well that is just asking for trouble.
lindysalsagal
(20,682 posts)It's hard to get statistics on anything that reach beyond the 50's. If that study is true, it's something pit bull owners have to recognize:
Small bites are one thing, but deaths are not to be slighted.
I know there are hundreds of pit bull owners on here who will swear their little sweetie couldn't hurt a flea, but I don't know that when I see one loose, like the 2 across the street from me.
One was loose yesterday,and I made sure I was in my garage before getting out of the car. Their other one got lose and threatened me last year. It was stalking me on my own front yard, and wouldn't let me out of my own house. It was guarding both of my exit doors, keeping me inside. Sorry, but that's not exactly poodle or terrier behavior.
After 10 minutes, I called the police and they called them and insisted they get their pit bull off my lawn.
Now, before you attack me, I rescued a stray dog from the street last month, when it was wandering around in busy traffic.
I pulled over, called it, it let me pick it up, and I carried it around for 10 minutes looking for it's owners. When no one knew anything, I put in in the front seat of my car, right next to me, and drove it to a vet, where it was picked up the next day, safe and sound, by it's owners.
So I don't need any lectures on dogs: I love them. I've owned them and handled them really well.
But 59% is a number you can't ignore. Loose pit bulls scare me. Because I know dogs.
Brainstormy
(2,380 posts)I'm afraid of pit bulls, too. Personal experience. But I also recognize that the breed, and associated breeds, sometimes get more of a bad rap than they deserve. I recently read that certain types of individuals, like convicted felons, who choose to own this breed over others. Can't find that article again but in searching for it I was surprised to discover that there are many places with laws prohibiting the ownership of pit bulls by felons. There's something going on here apart from the breed. Some bad dogs maybe. But also some bad masters. And not likely the type to neuter.
lindysalsagal
(20,682 posts)For them, the dogs are just business. Typical.
Basically, if you're an aggressive, hostile person, you're not bringing home a shitzu and training it to attack.
ozone_man
(4,825 posts)It surely is not just the breed, but also how owners train or treat them. So the two aspects are inseparable. But, there is definitely the capability of these dogs being killers much more than Labradors or golden retrievers for example. Otherwise, the druggies would be using them as attack dogs.
But, looking at the statistic by itself, knowing that it is tilted by owners that bring out the worst in the animals, it is an impressive statistic. 59%. And Rottweilers another 14%.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)at the link pick out both the pit bull and the presa canario and tell us what the difference is, I already know
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Which is full of shit:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022920444
flvegan
(64,407 posts)ozone_man
(4,825 posts)It appears that pit bulls are consistently the number one breed responsible for deaths due to dog bites. They seem to be in the 40-50% range, while Rottweilers are in the 10-15% range. This is somewhat lower than the previous link, but it is the same two breeds that dominate. Face it Pit bulls are called that for a reason. They were were bred to be fighters, and killers, however sweet some may be.
----------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States
2006 30 Pit bull (14) (47%) Rottweiler (9) (30%) Mixed breed dog (4) (13%)
2007 34 Pit bull (14) (41%) Mixed breed dog (7) (21%) Rottweiler (4) (12%)
2008 23 Pit bull (12) (52%) Mixed breed dog (7) (30%) Husky (2) (9%)
2009 31 Pit bull (11) (35%) Rottweiler (2) (6%) Mastiff (1) (3%)
Mixed breed dog (11) (35%) Husky (2) (6%) Boxer (1) (3%)
Alaskan Malamute (1) (3%)
Weimaraner (1) (3%)
2010 36 Pit bull (15) (42%) Mixed breed dog (9) (25%) Rottweiler (4) (11%)
2011 31 Pit bull (14) (45%) Mixed breed dog (5) (16%) Rottweiler (4) (13%)
2012 34 Pit bull (13) (38%) Mixed breed dog (9) (26%) Rottweiler (3) (9%)
flvegan
(64,407 posts)Want to try again?
Wikipedia. Is this what we've come to? I have no fucking idea, so I go to wikipedia and barf up whatever unverified crap some other idiot has posted there.
Face it? LOL, clueless.
ozone_man
(4,825 posts)Each incident is referenced to a news article describing the incident. It looks very carefully documented.
flvegan
(64,407 posts)Yeah, you did.
OwnedByCats
(805 posts)from lightening than a pit bull. It's still incredibly rare given how many are estimated to inhabit the country. In 2012 there were 21 or 22 people who died from a pit bull, a pit bull type, which means it may have been a pit bull or a mix, but also maybe not a pit bull at all- but nobody really knows. I've seen dogs misidentified as pit bulls, so it does happen.
So not to make light of those people dying, but the mass hysteria is beyond ridiculous. If "pit bulls" were as dangerous as some here make out that they are - there would be not double digit deaths, there would be deaths in the 5 or 6 figure range per year. The number is a drop in the bucket compared to our human and pit bull population. While there are things we should do to drop that number even more, some perspective is in order here.
Talk to actual people who have experience with large numbers of them and you'll find a completely different attitude. I've yet to meet or hear of those experienced with rescuing them, vets who treat them, people who work in kennels and shelters, along with people who have owned a number of them say they are horrible vicious dogs. These people would know. You should not judge a whole breed on the actions of what amounts to a very very small percentage. Dogs that never hurt a flea much less a person are being unfairly judged by people who have no clue what they're talking about.
Take any medium or large dog, train then to be aggressive, give them no socialization skills whatsoever, abuse them in other ways and fail to neuter that dog - that's a recipe for disaster with ANY dog strong enough to maim or kill a person. It used to be Dobermans, Rottweilers and German Shepherds that were maligned in this way. That was all bs too.
It's the thugs ruining this breed's reputation and everyone wants to blame the dogs. The dogs don't know any better, people however should.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Those figures are from media reports were the breed was ID'd visually, with no DNA testing done and no documentation of the breed. With no documentation or DNA testing, the best that can be said is that the dogs were of unknown or mixed breed.
Media reports are depressingly inaccurate. From 2009-2011, Pit Bulls were reported to be implicated in 55% of dog bite deaths, when the fact is it's closer to 7% - similar to Rottweilers. 75% were either unknown or of mixed breed. I expect media reports in 2012 and 2013 to have the same amount of inaccuracy.
OwnedByCats
(805 posts)I know that, as I've said before - and did say in my post that misidentification happens, I've seen it myself. My point is even if those were all pit bulls, that's one of the rarest ways to die so what's with the hysteria? You and I both know it's bs. We both know journalists and news reporters with the bias couldn't properly identify a pit bull most of the time. We also rarely get the extenuating circumstances behind these attacks and using their buzz word of "pit bull" is damaging. Between them and the people who shouldn't have a goldfish much less a dog, this whole idea that pit bulls are vicious out of the womb is still a belief amongst people who have no idea what they are talking about, and sadly some of them write legislation.
I agree with you 100% and I do appreciate what you've been doing. I'm quoting official stats and even if completely true, which I highly doubt - the hysteria on this is insane. Just trying to get perspective back. The misidentification is a huge problem and it needs to stop.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)I do believe that like licensing, spay and neuter should be mandatory for all pet owners. Cats and dogs. Only licensed breeders (and I don't mean backyard breeders) should be allowed to have reproducing pets.
I know that in Los Angeles, there are organizations that can give coupons to help with the cost. There are also low-cost clinics and roving clinics that do it. Especially in the case of males, neutering is so simple, doesn't require anesthesia or stitches and the dog is usually up and around the same day. I wish more money could be put toward this as it would save so much in killing unwanted pets in shelters down the road. I also believe vet clinics charge far too much.
Educating people is the key like anything else. When I had my cat neutered, the vet told me my pet would live 2-4 years longer because testosterone speeds the aging process. Also, a neutered pet is much better behaved and safer for the family AND other dogs. Neutering your dog does not make him fat and sleep all day. Neutering your dog has nothing to do with your own virility and masculinity. There is absolutely no need to have an non-neutered dog as a pet.
I hate to say it, but the dogs I see intact around here are...pitbulls. It just seems to all fit with wanting to appear tough. It's just a recipe for disaster. But I won't let my dog near Chihuahuas either, they're vicious little things.
KurtNYC
(14,549 posts)And I just found this on Norway -- it is illegal to neuter a dog in Norway...
...
Therese Bienek got her veterinarians degree in the USA and worked there for a couple of years. Now shes also been a vet in Oslo for two years.
...
Id never sutured so many bite wounds on dogs as Ive been doing since I got back to Norway.
http://sciencenordic.com/should-dogs-be-neutered
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)So there's that. Put it together with a highly educated, affluent population. I do no agree that altering pets "for the convenience of humans" is wrong. I do not believe it is cruel. We BREED them with traits for our convenience. Domesticated animals could not survive without humans and so they need to be able to fit into society. It's a totally different story in the US. Any but the most affluent neighborhoods in LA have (mostly pitbull types and Chihuahuas) running around the streets at all hours of the day. The kid's park where I swim is surrounded by stray dogs all the time. We have lots of irresponsible owners and a glut of stray pets so there is absolutely NO NEED to have reproducing pets.
And don't get me started on those zip leashes...
jeff47
(26,549 posts)is that the dog license feeds are much lower for spayed & neutered pets.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)But since the cost of a license is so low (I think the last one we paid was $15), it doesn't offset the cost of spay/neuter which a lot of vets here charge upwards of $150. Dog parks not allowing them in is also a good practice. But there are just so many dogs allowed to wander loose around here, it's a drop in the bucket. If it were possible, I would do trap & release like I do for feral cats. If there were a law to back me and other animal advocates up, as in the owner could not sue us for getting their dog altered, then we could deal with the problem very efficiently.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and your dog's too if you come in her yard. I've seen her bow up to a 60 lbs dog, and not have the slightest hesitation. The catch is - she's grew up outside.
Richard D
(8,754 posts). . . are started by un-neutered male humans.
tclambert
(11,085 posts)Helen of Troy (sort of).
Margaret Thatcher (Falkland Islands War).
Daenerys Targaryen (okay, she's fictional).
So, anyway, it's only like 99.9999999999% un-neutered male humans.
KurtNYC
(14,549 posts)tclambert
(11,085 posts)They say he became a eunuch when attacked by a Pittus Bullius (kidding).
michigandem58
(1,044 posts)Those who think it does, please repeat Logic 101.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Except for every Pit Bull that may bite, there are 500,000 that won't - just like any other dog.
tclambert
(11,085 posts)macho criminal type humans. Bad people disproportionately get dogs they think look tough, like Rottweilers and German Shepherds. They fear other drug dealers will mock them if they own poodles. They'd own sharks if they could.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)flvegan
(64,407 posts)No really, please.
michigandem58
(1,044 posts)The gender and spaying of dogs are factors. Breed is a separate factor. Your asking to see the "math" indicates you really don't understand.
KurtNYC
(14,549 posts)than the average dog but we would need to know total number of dogs by breed by gender and whether they are neutered.
If we assume that 50% of dogs are female (although I suspect it is higher because more males are put down than females) and that 66% are spayed or neutered then the total population of spayed female dogs is:
total dogs in US: 69.2 mil
x 50% females = 34.6
x 66% spayed = 22.8 mil
This means spayed females of all breeds make up 33% of the total dog population yet they are at MOST 8% of the dogs involved in fatal attacks, and therefore at least 4 times less likely than average to be involved in an attack fatal to humans.
By some estimates pit bulls make up 9.6% of the total dog population, (~20% of impounded dogs and ~30% of euthanized dogs) but I have yet to see stats that show frequency of spaying by breed.
https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/Statistics/Pages/Market-research-statistics-US-pet-ownership.aspx
Loudestlib
(980 posts)It's a bad idea to get your information from a source with a strong bias.
From the study they used, note that they chose not to include this information even though it was in the conclusion:
"This is no evidence that, absent circumstances specifically associated with mating or maternal protectiveness, a dog being
intact should be understood as a cause of aggressive behavior toward human beings."
They also left out the main finding of the study that most of the deaths were from outside dogs not kept as family pets.
KurtNYC
(14,549 posts)They found correlation but backed away from any theories about causation which is kind of cowardly...maybe they should grow a pair!
a la izquierda
(11,794 posts)and an unneutered male shows up, we leave. I have three male dogs, all neutered, and all three-even the tiny one- react oddly to unaltered males.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Such a simple thing that so many refuse to understand.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)ears back means more submissive, ears forward more aggressive and if the dog is acting fearful give it some space you're absolutely right about that
I've only seen my dog act in a hostile manner with one other dog and that was my MIL's , both are spayed females mine is a Pit/Pointer mix and MIL's is a Lab/Rott mix but MIL's is more aggressive and introduced herself by attempting to mount Ruby who was having none of that, no biting occurred but there was some growling
mt_big_blue_sky
(15 posts)attitudes peppered here on DU for a while now... it's getting old.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)Thanks. It's true for the most part but I would not underestimate the aggressive behavior of an alpha bitch. (sorry to those who are sensitive but this is the proper usage for the word.) In a pack with pups, the alpha bitch can be THE most aggressive over any pack males neutered or not, but that is usually when she is approached or there's a perceived attack or attack stance; they will protect their pack and pups. Sometimes that continues after the pups are gone, they can become the leaders of the pack. The two most aggressive dogs I have ever had in my care were over-bread alpha bitch show dogs, but that's not the norm.
I think the article is true in the vast majority of situations probably due to domestication. City dogs can be different than country dogs too, but that's another long story.
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)any animal, including humans, will do just about anything.
nadine_mn
(3,702 posts)there was no question she was the alpha - we had collie mix, a lab mix then adopted another lab mix and finally a GSD - all rescued and all fixed. The collie mix (a short haired Lassie who had been abused by her original owners) was the alpha female.
She was so protective of her pack - any threat to them (by other dogs acting aggressively) she would instantly intervene. Hilarious to see this fluffy collie put a pit bull, rottie, a pack of ankle biters or GSD in their place with just her attitude.
I cannot imagine what she would have been like if she was unaltered and had her own litter.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)It indicates submissiveness. Nor does a tail up and wagging indicate friendliness. It indicates excitement. Also a dog backing up might indicate a lack of trust but not necessarily on the part pf the dog. If a dog's human is displaying a lack of trust, the dog will display the same behavior, especially if the dog is excited. When introducing dogs to each other, their humans should be calm but assertive. The dogs should also be in a calm state of mind. You can tell when a dog is calm- his ears are back, his tail is down or he is laying or sitting.
The way dogs introduce themselves to each other is by smelling so you want to make sure noses are engaged when greeting each other. A bark or a yelp or even a snarl while sniffing each others butts also does not indicate an attack/fight is eminent. It may just indicate that one of the dogs isn't ready to be greeted at such an intimate level. Yes, both dogs should be leashed during an initial greeting.
REP
(21,691 posts)Besides preventing the birth of animals that won't have homes, it can lessen the chance of cancers (especially mammary cancers); spare the animal unfulfilled heat cycles (they are physically stressful) as well as lessen aggression.
I've always adopted stray/rescue/thrown-away animals and gotten them full medical care, including spay/neuter. I've never known one whose personality changed or behavior (aside from adult male cats no longer spraying) changed. Because so many of these cats were strays, I did get to know them before they moved in with us
Response to KurtNYC (Original post)
Earth_First This message was self-deleted by its author.
vaberella
(24,634 posts)That makes sense.