General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsLet's make this clear: responding to your teenage child's words with violence is NOT OKAY.
And that's exactly what the father in the now-infamous laptop-shooting video was doing. The fact that the violence was directed against his daughter's computer and not his daughter directly doesn't make it any less threatening. If I didn't like something that you said, and so I busted into your house and smashed your computer to pieces, would YOU not take that as an implicit threat that next time it might be you? That I was so filled with uncontrollable rage that I would destroy something valuable just for my revenge? And over some comments made on Facebook? If she had said them to him in person, would he have turned around and hit her? How much of a gap is there between being so angry that you'll premeditatedly take out a laptop and destroy it, and being so angry that you'll take a swing at someone?
That said, I find it frankly appalling to hear people justifying what he did, claiming that it was an appropriate response to her "disrespecting" him, or that she was "spoiled." You are horribly, horribly wrong. There is NO SCENARIO under which you are justified in threatening your child with violence, period. And if you cannot tell the difference between taking away privileges and violently destroying something for revenge, you should be reconsidering your parenting qualifications.
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Brickbat
(19,339 posts)What if it was a sassy black woman saying things in a "oh no you dint!" tone and who then threw it out the window? Is it the gun that makes you mad? The destruction? His accent and the cigarette?
I saw no threat to the daughter at all. I saw him following through on a threat he had made toward her computer.
renie408
(9,854 posts)Yeah, it's the gun and the extreme response to disrespect from his child. Disrespect which was not directly said to him. She should be able to bitch about her parents to her friends without her laptop being shot to pieces.
As for 'sassy black woman saying things in a "oh no you dint" tone' ... You do realize that you can review things before you actually post them, right?
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)I posted in another thread about how I was ready to jump all over this guy because of his, to me, redneck accent, guns, stupid hat and cigarette. By the end of the video, I was totally on his side. I posted in the other thread that I believed that if it were a black mother holding forth in a righteous way, or a white working class-father running over the laptop with his truck, a lot more people on DU might have supported it.
originalpckelly
(24,382 posts)Because a gun exists to kill people. It can be used to do other things, like shoot targets, but it was invented to kill.
Cars carry people. Windows provide fresh air.
It would still be unreasonable, but it's so easy to see how this could go wrong. The things you do with a gun are often lethal and irreversible and easy. He might do something in passion he might regret later.
The culture of people treating lethal weapons like toys has got to stop.
He's lucky nothing rebounded from the laptop to hit him.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)It was stupid to shoot at the ground. I didn't see him as out-of-control, however.
SemperEadem
(8,053 posts)you just read an article and formed your judgment.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)Granted, that's different than being in person, of course.
Response to originalpckelly (Reply #21)
PavePusher This message was self-deleted by its author.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)Yeah, 'cause only things that happen with guns can "go wrong". Or something....
Amazing how some people loose all sense of perspective when a fiream is involved.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)As I said in another thread I can easily see my dad doing this had there been laptops in the 80s. He never laid a finger on any of us and nobody would have taken such a thing on his part as a threat. I guarantee you this guy is at his wit's end due to a brat that he hself has undoubtedly spoiled .
renie408
(9,854 posts)to mine.
To each his own.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)
TheWraith
(24,331 posts)Hint--it's NOT the ones who receive a good role model in resolving conflicts rationally and without violence.
hack89
(39,171 posts)more of a sports oriented theme instead of violent guns?
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)...but you said it anyway....
originalpckelly
(24,382 posts)A little stereotypical?
We get to make fun of rednecks, because they're not a hounded minority, but black people have been slaves in our history.
Just to clear this up.
antigone382
(3,682 posts)Please tell Judy Bonds that it is OK to marginalize "rednecks," "hillbillies," etc. because they have not been exploited in our country's history. Except you can't, because after decades of fighting for an end to mountaintop removal, she died of cancer last year, like so many of the people drinking the poisoned water and breathing the poisoned air of her community.
Most "rednecks" come from poor areas with inadequate access to education, healthcare, and decent, respectful jobs--the consequence of those conditions is ignorance. Many of them are located in areas that have been continuously devastated by loggers and coal companies on a social, economic, and ecological scale that most Americans have no concept of. Do you want to know how many of your scorn-deserving rednecks I know who live without access to clean water or decent housing, who have given their limbs or their loved ones to industries that monopolize their lands and their governments, leaving them in a state of fear that if they do not give even these things away, the only economic opportunity they have will be lost??? Do you want to know how many redneck boys I have seen sucked into the prison-system, drained of any hope or sense of opportunity--and very largely because they were perceived as worthless rednecks?
My intention is not to equate the struggles of Appalachian people to the struggles of blacks. However, the notion that any group is acceptable to mock is beyond shameful, and ignorant of history to boot.
renie408
(9,854 posts)You are right. But it seems to me that everybody looks down on somebody. I live in the country, so I don't automatically equate all people living in rural areas as rednecks; even the uneducated. To be a redneck to me you have to combine some degree of racism with arrogance. And there is usually a gun in there somewhere.
rppper
(2,952 posts)....the county he was born in....i did grow up in rural east texas. i have great memories and i still keep in touch with a lot of old friends thee, but rick perry is a hero to 90% of the population there, and unfortunatly, the redneck/guns/god and no gubmint crowd runs rampant...it's culture shock when i visit there. most of my friends who are progressive have , like me, moved away from there.
jamesatemple
(342 posts)but I never fit in with the folks with whom I grew up. I did my share of farm chores, vowed never to pull another cow's teats if I could keep from doing so, and moved to the Dallas area so soon as I could after college. Yet the bucolic environment that I knew as a child lured me back to a small East Texas town. I shall never forget the day that a boy of nine or ten years of age came into my small store, saw a piece of mail from the DNCC on my desk and asked, increduously, "Are you a Democrat?" When I replied that I was the last one in the county, he considered that response for just a few seconds and stated, "No you ain't! There's one down at the courthouse".
I nearly lost a close friend as the result of a heated discussion relative to George W. Bush's presidency (or lack thereof) and decided that winning an argument over politics wasn't worth the loss of a friendship. You see, my neighbors, good ol' boys and girls, will go out of their way to help others. And nothing I could say would ever change a mental attitude molded and steeped in the ideology propounded by little country churches; one merely accepted, never considered nor questioned. As one of the two last Democrats and the only atheist in the county, I'll continue to love and respect my friends and neighbors, keep my opinions to myself, and find some solace in visiting with cyber friends who share some of my ideas.
rppper
(2,952 posts)I grew up in the Longview/ Marshall/Jefferson area....my dad still lives in Henderson. My moms family are from the lufkin/nachidotches area.....if you've ever shopped at a brookshires, those are owned by her family. East Texas is the most beautiful part of the state IMHO....but the rhetoric and attitude is unbelievable....I remember when the area was heavily democratic! When I went into the service in 1988, it was still democrat friendly....what happened? You're spot on about the churches...that's what my other friends have said as well....most of them moved to Austin or DFW. Sadly, I've lost old friends there due to my politics. While Florida isn't exactly democrat friendly, the influx of north eastern retirees keeps the state gov here somewhat sane.....
Keep up the good fight and be safe friend....you truly are in the belly of the beast....
chervilant
(8,267 posts)If people had a clue about the important points you've made
~they wouldn't buy Tyson's or Pilgrim's products.
~they would boycott Hershey's, Mars and Nestles.
~they would be actively opposing Monsanto.
~they would demand that all hydrogenated oils be eliminated.
~they would not eat tuna ever.
Gosh... I could spend all morning adding to this list. Suffice it to say, our species is notorious for exploiting the least among us, regardless of gender, creed, color, religion, socio-economic status, or phylum.
TheWraith
(24,331 posts)In fact, I'm the owner of several guns and very much enjoy using them to destroy things. Catch is, I confine myself to blowing apart cinder blocks and clay pigeons, not other people's property. The laptop after all being his daughter's property regardless of whether HE paid for it. But whether he shot it, kicked it, or smashed it with a baseball bat, not only was he destroying his daughter's property, he was also showing that he was both willing and able to respond to her words with unthinking violence. And yes, that's exactly what it is, whether one chooses to recognize it or not. He could have just taken the laptop away for awhile, he could have sat her down and explained to her why he was angry with her comments, he could have found other ways to deal with the situation. He didn't do any of those things. His message, even if he didn't intend it that way, was "I don't like what you said, so I'm going to lash out violently."
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)We see this differently, and probably won't convince each other. I'm actually sorry I responded in your thread; I've been arguing in circles over it elsewhere, and am tired of it.
rocktivity
(44,576 posts)Whose disrespectful, bratty, immature tantrum is it, anyway? Lock up the laptop and cellphone until she's worked off the debt with enough chores!
rocktivity
JSnuffy
(374 posts)Using that logic no parent can take away their child's car, Xbox, TV, laptop etc... because that is their property.
Whether you "steal" someone's property for 2 weeks or take it and destroy it you still don't have that right.
Unless the daughter purchased that item entirely with her own money then it belongs to the father.
Kellerfeller
(397 posts)In their eyes, grounding her from the computer would also be forbidden.
JSnuffy
(374 posts)
TheWraith
(24,331 posts)Please come back when you're ready to have a real discussion, not try to either put words in the mouths of others or defend a man who acted very and clearly irrationally.
Kellerfeller
(397 posts)Otherwise, he shot up the laptop, not the place. THAT is a big difference.
And the point is that either it is her stuff that he cannot do things to or it is not. Which is it?
He looked perfectly calm and rational to me. But then again, I don't hyperventilate and get all excited when i see a gun.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)"The laptop after all being his daughter's property regardless of whether HE paid for it."
I was raised with the understanding that anything that was given to me by my parents could be taken back if used improperly or irresponsibly. It was mine in only a limited custodial sense, dependent on my behavior. If they confiscated something given to me, it was theirs to do with as they wished; destroy, hold indefinitely, give to someone more deserving, etc.
Anything that I worked/paid for myself was manifestly my sole property. If used wrongly in a dangerous or hurtful manner, it could be confiscated indefinitely, but not destroyed or disposed of. When I had proved myself trustworthy to be given a second chance, the property was returned to my sole control. It didn't take too many repititions of this lesson for the value to sink in.
Note that the father under discussion here also promised chores, a job and grounding to his daughter. These lessons will be of great value to her in the future.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)thesquanderer
(11,986 posts)People under 18 can be legally employed. If they buy things with money they earned, they still don't own them?
obamanut2012
(26,076 posts)Property gifted to minors is legally theirs, lots of case law backs this up. Things bought by minors is also legally theirs. Bank accounts in the name of a minor is also theirs.
Children are the only members of our species that we can strike with impunity--as long as we don't leave bruises, welts, or visible marks that can be defined as abuse. Your post indicates that you need to educate yourself about the dynamics of abuse. Also, I recommend that you read Alice Miller's "For Your Own Good" and "Thou Shalt Not Be Aware." Often, people who defend abusive behavior survived some form of childhood abuse, and feel compelled to 'defend' the parent(s) who abused them, even if by proxy.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)I could also go over my domestic violence bona-fides, but I'm guessing it wouldn't help.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)let's hear your "domestic violence bona-fides." Please, don't stint on the details.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)Have a great rest of the weekend.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)predictable.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)elicited a violent response. This is never acceptable.
FarLeftFist
(6,161 posts)Would he rather her vent her frustrations by picking off cats and dogs with one of his guns?
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)originalpckelly
(24,382 posts)Exactly what age does he think this should happen?
He admits he had lots of independence at her age. I have to wonder why it is exactly he left home so early and if those same issues are not present in this girls house.
FarLeftFist
(6,161 posts)She seems like a good kid. Does a big amount of chores (even some parenting it seems) and she's obviously in school, not a drug user or a teen mom etc. ALL teenagers go through the phase his daughter is going through. Unless I suspect my kid of using drugs or something harmful to them I won't invade their private (mostly awkward at her age) lives.
Snake Alchemist
(3,318 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)She didn't want privacy. She wanted to rally her troops against her oppressors, tormentors and their lazy domestic help.
FarLeftFist
(6,161 posts)Snoop around. Let the girl vent her frustrations.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)It's right next to the "We expect petulance from children, but not from adults" button.
"She wanted to rally her troops against her oppressors...." Would appear he id precisely the same thing-- but I imagine many of us expect the same petulant, childish reactions from any person, regardless of whether they tell us they are the mature parent. 
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)... that he may have some insights about what will motivate her to refrain from being a douchebag.
FWIW: my son's 18 year old girlfriend reposted gun guy's video on facebook.
Her response: "I would have done the same damn thing."
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)I fully expect that my daughter said things like this about me at some point during her teen years. She is now 17 and might be saying those exact things as I type this. I cannot believe reacting this way.
tabatha
(18,795 posts)And the destruction of the laptop is waste, and demonstrates that he is spoiled.
He could have taken it away for a year.
No wonder the daughter has issues.
renie408
(9,854 posts)...given his response to this 'disrespect'.
Snake Alchemist
(3,318 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)And he could have taught her about maturity. Seems they both failed.
However, I imagine many people expect the same childish and petulant reactions from adults and parents as they do from children, and then rationalize the immaturity of a parent.
Snake Alchemist
(3,318 posts)TheWraith
(24,331 posts)If she has impulse control issues, it's pretty clear where she got them.
FarLeftFist
(6,161 posts)
yardwork
(61,608 posts)renie408
(9,854 posts)It is the strangest thing that you can have a post pulled for hinting something slightly politically incorrect, but that thread had a good number of people from this board virtually patting the father on the back. And I do think that shooting the laptop was an implicit threat. I am a parent and I wouldn't even ground my kid for writing about me like that on Facebook. I would point out to them that Facebook is NOT the place to vent anything even remotely private, I would talk to them about why they felt the way they did and I would probably work up a few tears and use guilt to do the rest. But you know what? Neither of my kids would ever talk about me like that because I have done everything I can their whole lives to listen to them and take their thoughts, ideas and feelings into account. You don't want your kids to talk mad shit about you to their friends? Try treating them like people.
originalpckelly
(24,382 posts)Are they your property or are they persons waiting for their full rights, with you taking care of them and showing them the way until then?
This is something that a lot of very strict parents from all of the world think. That their children shouldn't have anything in life separate from them. Like these fathers who make their kids pledge their virginity to them.
renie408
(9,854 posts)I think I am a good parent. I try damn hard. It never occurred to me that my children were anything other than little people who just needed some experience in the world to get to where they were going. We have two rules in our house...never lie and never be mean. That's about it. They never had 'chores', we never had a set bedtime or homework time or anything like that. I think my son got grounded once for lying to us about smoking and he has never had a spanking that he can remember. I have to confess my daughter has had maybe seven or eight spankings in her lifetime. But, man, she was cooking with gas from the time she hit the ground. I never tried to justify the spankings and freely admit that by time I got to there, I had run out of parenting skill.
And you know what? My son is a Palmetto scholar on full scholarship to Clemson. He is well spoken, polite, and is good, loving and genuinely sweet. My daughter gets up every morning and helps us with our farm without a bit of fuss, is generous with her time and limited finances, is smart as a whip and a true joy to have around. I tell them both how lucky their father and I are to have them for kids all the time.
Maybe we were just lucky, I don't know. But I know I hear parents talk to their children all the time in a manner they would never think of using to a total stranger. And that's just wrong.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)same rural free-spirited farm life, thousands of nights of peace and grace....
...and then my 14 year old got hooked on drugs. Sorry to say but respect goes out the window and a whole new relationship hits the wall.
We do NOT know what the inner workings are in that family. We have no idea what the real time dynamics are there, and what preceded that action. I threw my daughter's bong out the window and smashed it. It belonged to her right? How dare I? Confiscated and burned her Bob Marley hat that she was using as a signal to deal drugs at school, perhaps I should have simply had a convo with her instead of dragging her ass to rehab? Must be the product of terrible parenting! If only I'd just spoken to her with respect all those years....
I'm just getting really aggravated by back seat drivers in family business. I get it - this guy invited us into his inner family life with this drama. My older girl is dumbfounded at the turn my younger girl has taken - respect and loving relationships pretty much defined our family.... until my youngest turned 14. Now nothing is off the table.
You are lucky. Perhaps you don't have addictive genes in your family. Or mental illness, or bi-polar, or learning disabilities or... (insert trouble here).
I just can't find it in my heart to judge this dad. I just can't. Even with as much information as we have, I still would say we don't have enough info to judge him.
renie408
(9,854 posts)My husband is the only one who has managed to get off of alcohol and stay off. Well, my dad doesn't drink any more, but he's dead.
My son, BTW, smokes like a chimney now that he is in college. With our family history I would rather have him smoke than drink, but it would have freaked me out if he had started at 14. I guess my kids never had that much free time. Not from any design of mine, but we run a 30 horse boarding/training/lesson farm and there is just always so goddam much WORK to do. And weekends are for horse shows half the year. I think you are extrapolating incorrectly from my post about talking to my kids. It hasn't all been roses and sunshine. We have had our fair share of screaming and fighting. The Waltons we ain't.
I should see if I could get my son to tell you how NOT like the Waltons we are. He is a member here; he doesn't post much, but he lurks a lot. I do remember one time when my daughter was about thirteen after she had been a sulky, obnoxious monster for WAYYY too long telling her, "You know what? Keep it up. I will always be your mother and I can't help loving you, but I don't have to like you. I would rather have you with us than not, but if you continue to act this way when you hit eighteen you will be free to go your own way. I will be sad, but I will still have your father, my other kid, my horses, friends, dogs and cats. I won't have you, but I will be ok. Will you be able to say the same thing?" That felt harsh at the time, but it was true. She bawled like a baby, but it was a turning point for us.
I am not judging you or blaming you for your daughter's situation. I HAVE been lucky. When school got weird, I started home schooling my daughter. We were lucky because we could; our lifestyle lends itself to a degree of flexibility for things like that. I don't know anything about dealing with the things you have had to go through and would never presume to judge you.
What I do know is that posting that video on Youtube wasn't about parenting. It was about HIS ego. And that is NOT good parenting.
You should judge this guy. Because what he did was wrong. Do you really equate shooting a laptop nine times with a gun because your child bitched about you on Facebook (ok, she bitched pretty hard) with throwing your daughter's bong out? You did the right thing. And no, if she were selling drugs at school, it's a little late for the conversation and sending her to rehab was the right thing, too. You have my truly sincere sympathy. That is such a hard and ugly thing to have to live through. And believe me, I KNOW we are lucky to have dodged so many bullets over the years. I am sorry you had to go through that as a family. How is your daughter now? Are you guys OK?
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)dressage and combined training. My daughter came in 8th in the nation in the Junior division at AEC's in September - at 14 one of the youngest competitors there (and stoned the whole time she now tells me). She's a straight A kid, the lead in the school production as a freshman. On the outside, looks fine. Edited to add that she also works for us, daily, and not just stupid shit (my sister thinks having her 17 year old get the mail from the box on the front door is a "chore", one which said 17 year old bitches mightily about). She rides 5 horses/day, helps with every aspect of daily horse care, mowing, fence repair, jump painting and maintenance, etc etc. None of these are "easy" chores - she works her ass off, alas. Clearly several hours/day working on the farm hasn't exhausted her nearly enough!
When I discovered the dealing (she was prostituting herself to get the drugs to deal), we withdrew her from school and were about to homeschool. We talked it over with the counselor and came to an agreement. She's back in her high school... for now. I've had the speech you did with your daughter in paragraph #2. My daughter didn't bawl (she was only 2 months past her 14th birthday), even though I was. She just laughed in my face, told me she hated me, would always hate me and wished she could be emancipated. I'm sure she still thinks all that, she just doesn't say it in RL (or on Facebook since she's now allowed back online but with outrageous supervision on my part). We're in that fragile "new" state. She's not trying to be intentionally provocative at the moment, so I don't openly search her room....
I just can't get it into my heart about the guy in the OP. I intellectually understand the argument that his actions look crappy. But I'm sure some of mine do as well to some DU contingent even as other DUers say "you are a wonderful parent". I am sick to death about some of the stuff we do/have done. I cringe reading Warren Stupidity's post downthread about weekly piss tests, cameras etc. We do all that. Have to. It's that or risking jail for her or us if she starts dealing again. We've been 25 years building our business which happens to be our home. There's no way to "save" any of it if she lights up in the barn loft with friends and starts a fire. Sometimes your teen's crap deserves 9 bullet holes, even if it's some kind of symbolic act. If my second girl had gone the way of the first girl, I presume I'd be scolding the hell out of laptop guy too. It all looks so easy from the outside....
Peace!
Snake Alchemist
(3,318 posts)Your kids should be taken away.
yeah, right.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)
I'll take my laughs where I can. Good thing my oldest is 24 and "escaped"! Heh.renie408
(9,854 posts)I am so sorry. I understand completely your not being able to bring yourself to judge the gun guy. It is easy to live inside my own little world and think I have it all under control.
I am enough of a horse person to say congratulations on the national ranking. I am not making light of the rest of it, but I know what goes into something like that. We do local and regional hunters, a few jumpers and a little dressage. I have never been enough of an adrenaline junkie to get into eventing.
I wish you and yours all the best and I hope your daughter can pull herself together. God, people can be so stupid. Again, not making light of the situation at all. She is just using such short term thinking and not looking ahead at all. And so much obvious talent. I am sorry.
Good luck.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)He LOVES her! We'd hoped to get her to Young Riders this year but who knows. My hopes are scaled way back at the moment. There's a contingent of parents at my barn who are appalled I'm still letting her ride (because she's ridden while high, endangering herself and the horses). Damned if I do, damned if I don't. The riding seems to be the thing holding her together the most at the moment, so she rides for now.
She's an adrenaline junkie. The counselor's tell me - "you are modelling extreme risk taking on a daily basis". Well, yup. It's too late to change it now, my husband competes nationally. My older girl events. I grew up galloping. There's no turning off this spigot. As you know, the horse world is filled with addicts, drugs and parties. She got to the AEC's with the most minimal competing last year while we fought (vainly as it turns out) to keep her sober .... so who knows. Boy is this a thread hijack!
Yup, she is being completely stupid. I really wish it were different.
renie408
(9,854 posts)Riding stoned is most likely NOT going to endanger her or the horse. It isn't a great idea, but as long as its weed, she's probably OK. Not that I think its OK to smoke at her age, but just flat facts, I doubt the weed is going to upset her riding ability. And anecdotal evidence suggests I am right.
God, clients are SO much fun, aren't they?? You guys sound like you are a way bigger deal than us, so I assume you have more/richer/etc clients than we have. They have this weird thing where they almost feel like they own you. You are doing the right thing. I would MAKE her ride. Especially if she loves it and genuinely loves the horses. I haven't had this trouble with my own daughter, but when I was a teenager just about the only thing that kept me sane were my horses.
As for the counselor's comment...pfft. She is her father's daughter. If he is an adrenaline junkie, then she may not have fallen so far from the tree. That might account for a lot of what is going on. You would think the work and the eventing would be enough of an outlet, but maybe not.
Like I said, when we started to get the feeling that the crowd my daughter ran with was getting a little wild for us (best friend pregnancy number TWO was our hint), we pulled her out and started home schooling. The lure I used was riding. This is what she wants to do professionally, so I gave her some colts to break and a really head case OTTB to refurbish. She now teaches some of my itty bitty lessons (she turned sixteen two months ago), cleans ten stalls a day (when times got tough, we had to let go of our help. We have weekenders, but that's it right now), rides three a day and helps with both feedings...PLUS at least two hours of school every day. I know we are not putting as much into school as we should...I have distilled it down to the things we think are REALLY important to getting through adult life. I worry all the time that she doesn't have enough social outlets. but reading stories like yours freak me out enough that I think I am OK with her degree of social life.
She WILL pull around. I know that when you are in the trenches dealing with it every day that is not much consolation, but I have known a lot of troubled teenagers throughout the years. In fact, three of my students from at least twenty years ago, all who had rough patches during teenage years, now board with us. They are all wonderful grown women. Again, not much consolation now, but just keep your chin up.
Good luck!!
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)which I studiously try to ignore. I really pondered whether to involve everyone at the barn with our teen drama but decided having EVERYONE watching her to ensure she never did anything stupid/dangerous was for the best. That's provoked some really amazing reactions: hugs, soft whispers of encouragement, more than a couple who've broken down with their own tales of teenage woe....
Like you, I presume, I have a love/hate relationship with our clients. They basically pay us to tell them how wrong they are, daily. And they love us for that as they hate it. Their horse(s) is their child in many cases and they expect us to treat them like that (which we do) but that engenders all sorts of other mixed feelings on their side. All of them are adult amateurs so they struggle with mastering the sport - so they are both overjoyed at their progress and despair at their lack of progress - many days at the barn can be an emotional roller coaster.... but involving them in this drama has been... good for all of us. They know my older girl well of course, and are shocked at my younger girl's craziness in comparison. My older girl is not a natural, she's had to work very, very hard to get to the point she's at in her riding. My boarders and clients know that. Then they watch with deep envy as this young one gets on and is so gifted.... yet obviously troubled. I was turning into a curmudgeon about my clients (maybe I always was) but this stuff with my daughter has changed the dynamic between all of us, for the better. While we still may be the barn/sport/horse experts, they now see that we're also deeply vulnerable.
If my younger girl were going to pursue this as a career, I'd push her harder to home school but one thing's clear, she's got mixed emotions about it. Her need for that death defying adrenaline has been seriously questioned by the counseling staff and has her thinking twice (for the moment) about how best to channel that. In fact, she's taken 2 of our younger horses, that we'd hoped would be her next competitors, to a show this weekend to get them out there for sale. During rehab she told us she'll ride the lovely gray Advanced horse she's doing so well with to the end, however far they get, and then she wants to take a break. Alas. My girls are intensely intellectual. My oldest is a medieval archaeologist! My younger one dances around the idea of being a philosopher! Unbelievable.... But if they wanted to ride like yours, I'd get them through the academics as fast as possible and get them out there teaching, training and competing just like you. There's nothing like real world experience to break into this business successfully.
Besides, there's nothing like a competition as a social outlet! I don't know about the h/j shows but dressage and ct events are one long party....
You are an angel Renie. Your kind words mean a lot. I really hope my girl finds her way through this mess. Each day is a new adventure....
I figure this thread is dying anyway so thought I'd thoroughly hijack it til the end! Peace!
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)is not her personal valet service, is about his ego? Seriously?
wilsonbooks
(972 posts)You sow what you reap. Treat your children as adults and respect them and they will respond in kind..The father in the video has issues and those who can't see that have issues of their own which blind them to his problem.
boppers
(16,588 posts)Not always.
A teenage child's brain functions *very* differently than an adult brain does. Lots more risk taking, lots less inhibition, lots less long-term planning.
hedgehog
(36,286 posts)really hung up over control. If your kids don't respect you, look at yourself, first. Get professional help while you're at it, and i don't mean from Dr. Dobson!
TheWraith
(24,331 posts)The truth is "automatic respect" is a contradiction in terms. Respect is both earned and learned, and kids learn a vast amount from their parents. Parents who don't respect their kids tend to get kids who don't respect their parents.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)excellence (and probably a pathological narcissist too).
AnOhioan
(2,894 posts)
Liquorice
(2,066 posts)there are so many people who think the girl is in the wrong for complaining privately about her life to her friends. When has that ever been an offense worthy of getting punished in any way? I'm pretty sure just about ALL teenagers complain about their parents to their friends. But this idiot apparently allows no dissent, not even private dissent, and goes and reads her private thoughts to the world before violently destroying her computer. He was so furious that she dared complain about him in any way, that he became violently enraged and got a gun and destroyed her personal possession. He has major control and boundary issues. It's disturbing.
This story has been a real eye-opener because of the responses it has gotten. There are a lot of really terrible parents out there if so many people find nothing wrong with this man's actions. It's no wonder there are so many messed-up people in this country.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)I'm not being facetious, I really don't know. I don't own guns but it seems to me that in rural communities, people shoot shit. It's not a "big deal".
That said, what's the definition of violence? In the past day we've had a thread where a mom put her teenage daughter out of the car because they were having an argument, and presumably so they could both cool off, THAT was called a violent action - "call CPS!"
My sister thinks its a "violent" action to make my kids do household chores (honestly). Her kids don't work and she thinks it "demeans" them to scrub a toilet.
One of my clients thinks I'm being abusive because I hire teens to help at the farm - they should be focusing on school, not having to go out and work. And I shouldn't be enabling this kind of abuse....
Sometimes the definition of "violence" means something different to one person vs another.
I'm not judging this dad. Honestly, I am not in any state of affairs in my own household right now with my own teen, to sit in judgment. But it seems to me that the responses pro and negative are revolving a lot around personal background....
And above all, we are most certainly NOT getting the whole story. The daughter may be disrespectful directly to her parents and the household help. She'd been warned and violated the trust, we just don't know the whole story I'd bet.
TheWraith
(24,331 posts)We're talking about a guy responding to his daughter's private complaining to her friends about her parents by losing his shit and destroying something, and then crowing about that fact on YouTube. There's no comparison between that and people who think teenage jobs are wrong. This is about actual, physical violence and the threat of it; anything else is a red herring.
Regarding "shooting things" in "gun culture," what "gun culture"? To put it bluntly, some people seem to be under the impression that there's one giant solidified mass of redneckism outside of the suburbs. The fact that somebody owns a firearm doesn't make them part of some kind of secret sect or giant homogeneous mass that all thinks and acts the same, whose lives revolve around the fact that they own a firearm. The reality is there's about a hundred million Americans who own guns, and most are just regular people. Owning a gun neither makes you more likely to lose your shit and shoot something up because you're angry, nor is it an excuse for doing so, and this guy would have been just as much in the wrong if he'd been wearing tweed and using a nine iron.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)One small quibble, I'm dead cert that girl has not restricted her complaining to just private moments on Facebook.... it's naive to believe that teen girls are not sassy in RL.
Two, we don't know if he owned the laptop or she did. Really. We don't. I've had this argument with my teen and basically since I bought it, I pay for it's maintenance and usage, I own it. She gets to use it as long as she doesn't abuse it. That said, there's no way I'd shoot anything since I'm not into guns. We've simply password locked our teen daughter's stuff after confiscating it.
Lastly, I'm rural and I was simply wondering if this was a culture gap - where shooting things isn't seen as a big deal. Shooting stuff is not a big deal to my neighbor, and it would be a perfectly fine lesson in his mind I'm sure. He's not a mean guy, his children appear to be lovely (grown girl and boy who are successful professionals off the farm) but he's bragged about the stuff he's shot - some really crazy shit like washing machines and microwaves etc. that were "dying" anyway and he thought it would be fun to "shoot it to death".
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Of course, she may have locked you out, but you should never set up a kid's account with administrative priviledges. You should always reserve admin priviledges for your own account.
renie408
(9,854 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Its good information though for parents that need it.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Or to have large men with lumpy suits rummaging through your house and confiscating all your computers because your kid's been doing something they shouldn't have.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)but it's good advice all around. Thanks for posting!
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Weekly piss tests too. You can never be too careful.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)well maybe not ha ha funny but a story nonetheless. She's a farm kid and can drive everything, including all of our vehicles.
We got into a heated discussion once and I stopped the car and got out to cool off. Walked away. Made the mistake of not taking the keys. My 14 year old simply slid over into the drivers seat and drove off. Left me there for a couple of hours on the side of the road, no purse, cell phone, money and miles away from anything in rural IL.
Unfortunately now our cars are equipped with tracking devices....
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)Kids do the damndest things.... I did something tangentially similar to that when I was 16. Lost my solo car priviliges for quite a while, as I recall...
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)until next year.
TheWraith
(24,331 posts)One, it doesn't matter if he bought the laptop--it belonged to his daughter. Even so, even one argues it was completely his, it was not the act of a rational man to take it away and destroy it.
Secondly, how the hell does it matter whether she just griped on Facebook? If she was also complaining in real life, does that justify her father acting out violently?
There is simply NO EXCUSE for such behavior.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Everything she put on there - a kid could say the same things to their friends back in the day.
We should learn to ignore Facebook. There are millions of things on the internet. It's not really so very "public." Employers who look at it strike me as creepy. Let people have their own lives at some point, for crying out loud. No need to troll FB looking for offense.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)I can assure you I have relatives who are probably shooting shit right now for pure entertainment. I'm not a gun nut but I grew up in a house full of them. None of them are violent - and my definition would be someone who does violence on another person - or on an animal for pleasure.
Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)Guns are a dangerous and sometimes necessary TOOL that you never use lightly or carelessly and certainly not as a means to vent your frustration. Target practice in a controlled setting is one thing. Shooting a laptop because you're frustrated seems totally disrespectful of the fact that guns can kill people almost instantly.
obamanut2012
(26,076 posts)He destroyed her property in a violent way, then crowed about it on youtube. His actions were also not those of a mature, rational adult. I found what he did, frankly, rather scary and abusive.
Anyone who has ever had anyone destroy something of theirs because they are anger at them knows what I'm talking about. It's very scary, and shakes you up for a long time afterwards.
Also, if you did this to someone NOT your child, you would be arrested. I think that shows it wasn't a good thing to do.
boppers
(16,588 posts)She has no source of income, how would she be able to acquire property?
SemperEadem
(8,053 posts)gifts given to them for birthdays, etc. A child doesn't need a source of income to aquire property.
boppers
(16,588 posts)obamanut2012
(26,076 posts)Neither ethically nor legally. Lots of case law says you are mistaken, whether minor or adult.
boppers
(16,588 posts)It's probably better to speak in less general terms.
SemperEadem
(8,053 posts)Unless one was a cruel, mean-spirited, child-hater that would snatch a gift from a child on an "it's my property" tantrum alone, then this whole conversation really is a non starter.
boppers
(16,588 posts)Because the child thought they were "theirs" to do with as they please?
SemperEadem
(8,053 posts)I didn't raise a destructive child.
and that's non sequitur to what is being discussed in the thread.
boppers
(16,588 posts)One that never pushes their boundaries.
Pity.
SemperEadem
(8,053 posts)she doesn't have to destroy things to "push boundaries". Only parents with weak parenting skills have kids who destroy other people's property for their jollies.
you're quickly losing your point. Stop now.
obamanut2012
(26,076 posts)And, that includes minors. Case law backs that up.
S, only adults who work are legally allowed to own something? Wow.
maximusveritas
(2,915 posts)While the video appeals to most people's dislike of increasingly spoiled and entitled children, there are many problems with what he did.
renie408
(9,854 posts)boppers
(16,588 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Like a laser beam! 
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)It is not funny. It is not wise. It is violence and it will elicit a lot of anger and who knows what else. It's really stupid.
Justice wanted
(2,657 posts)or voice anger at a parent and it was very oppessive place.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)One assumes that you're not making the mistakes of your parents.
Just curious how that's working out.
Justice wanted
(2,657 posts)bad choices at times and if a child is upset by a bad choice they should be allowed to vent it. One hope that a child learns how to vent in a mature way but then a parent should be the example.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)you wouldn't be the first parent to realize that their utopian ideals of family life were naive.
Childhood should, to a degree, be oppressive. Kids aren't little grownups. "No, you can't play with matches, and I will discipline you if you do it again, because I AM the boss of you."
Justice wanted
(2,657 posts)being able to learn HOW to VOICE emotions at an EARLY age PERHAPS THAN they are not SOOOOO FREAKIN EAGER to grab a gun or slug someone in the face!
There is guiding a child and TEACHING them not to play with matches and THAN there is oppressing someone and ruling over them like a dictator!
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)If you teach your son that yelling at you is okay, he'll only belatedly learn that yelling at teachers, cops and bosses is not okay.
You can't respectfully yell at someone.
Justice wanted
(2,657 posts)yelling. THEY NEED TO LEARN TO EXPRESS ALL EMOTIONS IN REASONABLE WAY!!!! BUT FOR A PARENT TO SAY I"M RIGHT YOU ARE ALWAYS WRONG AND CANNOT EXPRESS DISPLEASURE IN THE PARENT IMMATURE "I"M RIGHT YOUR WRONG" REASONING IS BULL SHIT!
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Some. You. Just. Don't.
If you ever become a parent, you'll learn what I'm talking about.
Justice wanted
(2,657 posts)PavePusher
(15,374 posts)Irony, it must be delicious, so many seem to indulge in so much of it.... 
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I haven't seen so much SHOUTING since the pigs ate Willie.
inna
(8,809 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)
sibelian
(7,804 posts)It's dangerous and careless to expect children to form the habit of making grown up judgements too fast. They need someone to trust to guide them through the process, and you can't trust someone that you know you can emotionally manipulate. This is going to mean arguments, and unfortunately for fragile egos sometimes Daddy has to win because sometimes junior wants to hang and take crack with his pals.
Children are not some perfect little seed that are going to grown into a beautiful Japanese acer all by themselves, they have bad feelings and bad ideas as well as good ones, just like all sorts of other normal people. If you're lucky to have a kid born with a naturally well-balanced, good-natured personality, hooray, that's great, but not all kids are born super-nice, people have faults and you can very often seem them right at the beginning.
I think if your position is that it's important to respect your child's feelings you're absolutely right, but I think it's much more important to respect your child's potential, future and basic personal safety and sometimes a child will want to do things that aren't going to work. If a kid never learns any boundaries, woe betide them when the parents aren't around to pay for everything and pick up the pieces.
Children aren't born with much of an idea of what's right and wrong, they mostly have the general gist of the *emotions* that drive our need for an understanding of right and wrong and they even get complex things like altruism at an early age but they need help to come to terms with developing that understanding and implementing it. So they have to be told by someone who already understands it. So, they need a boss.
renie408
(9,854 posts)oppressiveness and boundaries.
Because I said we don't have many rules in our house, doesn't mean we have no discipline. I expected my kids to have good manners, to be kind to others and each other and to act as if they have common sense. I expected all of that from the day they were born and made corrections along the way accordingly. I also happen to treat my husband with respect and demand that he do the same with me. We have worked HARD to raise good kids. They were good to begin with, we didn't have anything to do with that; but we have worked to LISTEN to them and to understand how they felt. When we said 'No' to something and they didn't agree and wanted to do otherwise, we would LISTEN to them. Sometimes we would agree and change our stance; sometimes not. Yeah, I do think I am a better parent than this guy. And not just because my kids aren't flaming assholes. But maybe my kids aren't flaming assholes BECAUSE we were good parents and didn't get in the way of their being strong, good people.
Is the only definition of discipline that you have something akin to shooting a laptop? Do some of you really think that raising good kids is some happy accident? Then what the fuck is the point in worrying about any of it?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)"what you think you know about being a parent by virtue of having once been a kid/seeing kids at the Olive Garden/playing a parent on TV, is naive if you haven't actually done it."
... then you're being dishonest.
What you learned about parenting was all OJT, and every kid is different. You'd learn an entirely different set of rules/principles/guidelines if you were the parent of a different set of kids.
The childfree person to whom I was replying said that she felt it was important that a child should (paraphrased) be encouraged to "express all their emotions" to and about their parents.
Parents have a big responsibility. If they are to discharge that responsibility, they can't give away their authority, which includes icky concepts like "obedience" and "consequences".
I don't shoot laptops, but I'm not seeking to be my kids friend either.
renie408
(9,854 posts)I have two kids. They are totally different people who require very different approaches. I won't bore you with details.
I think it is weird that because I say we have few rules and I mostly just talk to my kids that people think we must not have any discipline. I am pretty sure that my kids are OK with expressing all of their emotions to us. They have been taught from the time they were old enough to start expressing themselves that emotions are OK. It's not the emotions, it's what you do with them. Basically, it is OK for my kid to be angry with me. I have always tolerated the rational expression of anger/disapproval/disagreement. It would not be OK for my kid to yell at me or say ugly things to my face. Or to mumble. God, I really HATE mumbling! But to rationally argue with me, even heatedly, is just fine. They know where the lines are drawn and by now are pretty good at not crossing them. They have to remain civil. I was raised by some strict Southern parents and really don't like rude or uncivil.
I feel sure my daughter thinks I am a big ole bitch sometimes and shares that with her friends. I could not care less. There are times when I think SHE is a bitch and I share that with my friends, so I guess we are even. I figure she is going to need to vent occasionally and kids will show off in front of other kids. I *might* ask her why she thinks I am a bitch or whatever, but probably not even that.
Our approach to parenting has worked for us. We have two great kids with whom we have an unusually close relationship. They respect us as the parents and we respect them as people. That doesn't mean we let them do whatever the hell they feel like. It means that we LISTEN to them when they try to tell us something. And you know what? Sometimes I listen and say, "That's wrong" and explain why. Or I listen and say..."Ok". Listening doesn't imply passive tolerance for everything my kids do.
SemperEadem
(8,053 posts)
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)I felt like he destroyed the laptop because he really wanted to shoot it. He described the bullets in detail, and talked about how she had to pay for them, but they were only $1 each. Compared to the other things he was charging her, the few bucks on bullets seemed like nothing.
Another interesting thing was he said her mother, who he is no longer with, agreed with the punishment.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)He SHOULDA...
She SHOULDA..
And I'm better than them because in OUR family we...
Damn, people-- get a life.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)The sanctimonious, hand-wringing buffoonery in this thread is simply priceless.
Puglover
(16,380 posts)Totally agree.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)renie408
(9,854 posts)a parenting choice.
Like shooting up your kid's laptop.
And BTW...you do get that by posting this you are saying that you are better than any of us who wrote that we thought this guy was wrong, right? You are so much BETTER than ME because I think this guy is a totally shitty parent. Well, good for you!! YOU have a LIFE!! It isn't like all you have to do on a Saturday evening is sit around on the internet judging other people.
Oh...wait....
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)TheWraith
(24,331 posts)After all, it's completely not sanctimonious to lecture other people for commenting on something on a discussion forum!
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)who isn't getting all worked up at what just might be a joke.
You don't know this guy, or if he even HAS a daughter, yet you pronounce judgment on him from what he says on a video.
Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)You're right that most people who are judging him have probably overreacted at some point in their lives. However, they're smart enough to NOT share their overreaction with the entire world. If the guy didn't want to be judged, he should've shot his daughter's laptop in private.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I would wonder what has happened in that household before.
mercuryblues
(14,531 posts)it be before is daughter spits in the next cup of coffee she gets him? What he did was not discipline, it was revenge. All he did was show her, when someone gets you angry, you get revenge.
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)Yes, he probably paid for the laptop- as he probably paid for the house, her clothing etc. I wonder if there would have been the same response if the video had shown him bursting into her room and firing at the walls or window (which he paid for)? Or ripping off her clothes (which he paid for)? At what point does his violence become officially bad enough to overwhelm her being (based solely on HIS words) "spoiled"?
I don't own a gun at the moment, but have in the past and will again shortly. I'm not anti-gun. I'm anti-crazy person WITH gun. The idea that anger, revenge or threats equal responsible gun ownership is completely beyond me. There is nothing good, responsible or mature about this lunatic's actions. Nothing.
His Facebook page seems to indicate that Social Services is investigating-he's got a post up indicating that he's oh-so-graciously ALLOWING her to speak to them. I hope for her sake that some kind of therapy is ordered for him. Everything about this says "violent control freak" to me.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)it's hard to say which side is more over the top, a guy shooting a laptop or people saying the kid should be taken away like I'm reading in other threads.
By the way, this couldn't have been done with both "uncontrollable rage" and "premeditation"--those are two entirely different mindsets.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)if anything in the video is true. Or, if true, any more backstory than he told.
I still betcha the whole thing is fake and this guy is laughing his ass off at how everyone's getting so wound up.
ohheckyeah
(9,314 posts)Since you say so everyone will fall in line.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Everyone's drinking the "shoot it up to teach her a lesson" kool-aid.
I have yet to see one person tell me how wiping the hard drive and giving the laptop away to charity would have had a less powerful effect than shooting it on camera.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Actually I think a lot of people on this thread would agree with you.... no need to manufacture outrage imho. "Everyone" is not drinking the "shooting" kool-aid. There seems to be a definite split of opinion here but I would certainly not categorize "everyone" in the shoot-the-computer-okay group, at all.
Honestly, we don't even know if that's her computer. The guy could have shot one that he fished out of his IT friends' garbage, and is instead holding on to the real deal.
See for me? I'm in the not-enough-info-to-judge camp.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)That this isn't overwhelmingly condemned is a sign that we as a society have not come as far down from the trees as we think we have.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)For him (and his friends who bring other similarly "dying" appliances that need "killing" , shooting a laptop isn't a big deal. My neighbor seems like a quirky guy but not crazy. Funny, bright, and really into guns. He has a Gadsden flag flying prominently in his yard....
I don't know enough about gun culture to condemn it, or say this is just what people who shoot things do.
As I said, we don't even know if this is "the" laptop, his daughter's. It could be a fried twin. The guy is an IT guy. Getting a fried unit to shoot for jollies (and a presumed lesson) wouldn't be out of the realm of consideration imho.
I've said upthread that for me and mine, I've destroyed my 15 yr old daughter's "property" when I've seen fit.
I will not judge him.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Coming from someone who at one time in the past would have had to scrape months of income together to afford a laptop WITHOUT paying other bills, I can judge the wasteful destruction of perfectly working electronics. This laptop was not dying or in need of killing - and while one can speculate that it wasn't really THE working laptop he was talking about, it's glorifying the destruction of a perfectly working piece of equipment. It's the message he's sending out that's wrong and wasteful.
As for dying appliances, few people ever think, "Hey, we could repurpose that". Take a dying washing machine and remove the drum, hook it up to a bicycle, and you've taken several steps to creating a new pedal-powered washing machine. Naw, instead it's simpler and more manly to shoot it full of holes. Yeehaw.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)I understand the outrage about destroying something that's perfectly useful because you're poor. In their defense, many poor people don't know that you can re-purpose a washing machine drum and hook it up to a bicycle to create a pedal-powered washing machine. Yeehaw indeed. Welcome to the 21st century where virtually ALL of our population doesn't recycle like that.
But this guy is an IT guy. So is my Dad. He takes apart perfectly useful pieces of computer equipment just to examine their structure (he's a retired EE, one of the pioneers in computer design both hardware and software from Bell Labs). IT guys, in my experience, don't "value" electronics like we do. There's always "more", always parts, always ways to put it all back together.... I'm 110% sure this guy had access to a fried duplicate of his daughter's machine to "shoot". We have no way of knowing that was the actual machine or simply drama for youtube....
"Wrong" and "wasteful" messages when applied to teens are meaningless in my direct experience. I've "wasted" time and resources trying to get my teen to a better place. That my "wasted" efforts, both financial and personal, aren't apparent to anyone else doesn't matter. It was what I had to do. I've also been told how "wrong" I am as a parent in some of my parenting efforts. Of course, many more "praise" those same actions... so there's that. I just don't see how you can know this family, from a single youtube video. It seems awfully presumptuous.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Whatever happened to presenting a mature example? Mature people don't shoot up laptops to punish someone.
And taking stuff apart for research is not the same as shooting it up. Even burnout testing serves a useful purpose; shooting holes in it doesn't... unless you're testing a military combat-grade laptop. This guy shot up a laptop just to destroy it for no good reason. A total waste of natural resources, for what? To intimidate his kid? He coulda done better by giving it away.
And perhaps we could spend time educating people about how to recycle and rejuvenate dying equipment. But then that would take time out of oggling at Snookie or griping at Kardashian or fawning over Justin Bieber or whatever is trending today. We're so drunk on the yeehaw wastemongering kool-aid that we can't even fathom such an idea. The fact that our population doesn't recycle like that is a sign that we liberals have our work cut out for us. For the sake of our environment. I'd think that considering this would be second nature on a liberal forum.
I can't believe I'm debating the wastefulness of shooting up machines that can be rejuvenated or repurposed, much less shooting up perfectly working laptops on a liberal forum. The "we don't know if this was a real working laptop" is by far the flimsiest excuse one can come up with. You cannot be 110% sure it was a fried duplicate.
It is in no way presumptuous to judge someone who shoots a laptop and conveys the clear and unambiguous message that shooting perfectly operational laptops somehow teaches a kid a worthwhile lesson.
Exactly what forum am I posting to, anyway? Where'd the liberals go?
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Our family counselor thinks my career (and my husbands) is the antithesis of a mature example. Our careers don't look anything like an 'adult" path. Too late. We're wildly successful at it however and it can't be changed now. I don't think you get to define "mature", especially when it comes to family dynamics.
I dare define myself as a far left liberal. Take it for what it's worth. I would love to debate recycling electronics with you! THAT deserves a thread of it's own (FWIW, I don't know any of the people you mentioned. I don't have teevee). Feel free to put me on ignore. That way you can only converse with the "right" sort of liberal....
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)I'm not trying to ignore reality.
The reality is a lot of liberals don't see how downright wasteful it is to behave like this youtubin' father did. As a result our landfills grow and grow and we'll continue to waste more natural resources building new stuff that we done gone yeehaw and shot up.
The right wing just doesn't give a shit, their pseudo-religion says who gives a fuck about conserving natural resources or that whole pinko commie reduce, reuse, recycle crap. To them nothing instills obedience more effectively than the troglodytish shooting up of things and then bragging about it on video. Your kid gets out of line? Destroy more stuff! That's the age old Conservative way.
On the other hand, what's our excuse?
MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)What ever one thinks of that silly viral video, destroying someone's property to teach a lesson is not mature behavior and negative not positive effects.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)in other threads but will try again.
My 14 year old daughter began using drugs 2 months after she turned 14. She quickly escalated into hardcore drugs: heroin, meth, crack cocaine... she began prostituting herself to get the drugs and dealing them at school within a year after starting.
I have destroyed her drug paraphernalia and her drugs. I've also destroyed her 'special" hats, jewelry, clothing and other items that signal that she is 1. ready to have sex for drugs and/or 2. that she has drugs to sell at school that day. Sometimes that destruction has been done in fury, sometimes in rage, sometimes weeping, sometimes calmly and rationally. You can tell me that it's "negative" behavior til the cows come home but you aren't in this family, nor are you working with the school, police, rehab center and substance abuse counselors to try to save your kid.
Furthermore, my husband is a professional athlete in an extreme sport. We model extreme risk taking daily. My daughter is on track to be one of the top athletes in this sport if she chooses. OBVIOUSLY she is having some trouble figuring out what's "mature" behavior from our "behavior" but I'm not exactly sure what you'd have us do at this point, 25 years into this career. We're in an extremely honorable profession with long roots in our culture - but it does lend itself to blurred lines. It can and does have positive effects, except of course with this kid, whose troubled indeed. FWIW, she's 15 now and 2 months out of rehab and 2 months sober. That in itself is a major victory but I doubt you'd see it that way, or the steps we've taken to get there, since a LOT of what looks like really "bad parenting" from the outside was necessary to get here.
Until you have walked a mile in my shoes, or any other family's shoes, it's impossible to judge. And I'll be damned if an issue like Laptop Dad and his daughter is so black and white. We do NOT have the whole story, I'm sure.
MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)A laptop and drug equipment are not in the same category.
The video is a stupid ego trip and most likely a joke but destroying a kids legitimate items is moronic no matter how you slice it. Did you start using drugs and engaging in prostitution to teach your daughter a lesson? If this video isn't BS then that is exactly what the father has done.
If it is real it was stupid.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Clothes, jewelry, music, hell even the Bob Marley stuff got ripped off the walls....
We don't even know if that was really "her" laptop. The guy's in IT and scoring a fried identical laptop would be a piece of cake.
I stand by my statement. We do not have enough info to judge.
MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)we do have enough info to CLEARLY judge that
1. Going PUBLIC in a stupid childish rant to "teach a lesson" to his daughter for supposedly doing the same.
2. Destroying in a incredibly stupid manner, her laptop, again to supposedly "teach her a lesson".
Yes we do have the right to judge that. He put it out there for the very purpose of saying "hey judge me".
If the story isn't completely made up it seems his daughter had her rant set to private while he put his childish behavior out there for all of us to see... and yes to even judge.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)Anyone who wants to be able to actually communicate with them, for starters.
Yeeesh....
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)What have you taught them then, except acting like a kid is okay when it's done by an adult?
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)I do hope they have adult supervision and clean up the mess afterwards.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)for the obvious actions that are going to happen by this guy in the future.
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)That thought gives me satisfaction.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)and his idea of parenting includes using Youtube to publicly chastise her. That's messed up - even more than shooting the computer.
Seriously, if he's going to be breaking into her computer and Facebook account to spy on her he should keep it to himself unless he finds something serious, like she's doing drugs or something, NOT her complaining about her chores.
Teens deserve an increasing degree of privacy that's respected by their parents - it helps them develop their identity and the transition to adulthood.
http://missourifamilies.org/features/adolescentsarticles/adolesfeature20.htm
Respect boundaries
If you are nosy or angry, it is not appropriate to snoop in your teen’s room or belongings. If your teen catches you, this could harm your relationship. It is much better to ask and check in with them to keep tabs on what your teen is up to.
Kellerfeller
(397 posts)safety, well-being, and actions, then she gets no privacy. Sorry, she is either independent or she isn't.
If my teen wants a room where I will not "snoop", my teem is welcome to become emancipated and get his/her own room. Until then, I reserve that right. It's called "caring" about them.
I find it amazing how people on here have such schizophrenic views on kids. If they commit a crime (especially something horrendous or racial/sexual-orientation based, then it is usually the parents fault.
But is it is about abortion or "privacy" issues, the parents should have no say. It can't be both ways. Either the teens are capable of making wise decisions and fending for themselves or they need supervision from parents.
And for the record, I wouldn't have done what this guy did, but I don't have a problem with it. He didn't do it in an irrational emotional rant. And it made a big impact.
When my son was younger (10 or11), he had a BB gun and pointed it at some of the neighborhood kids. They got scared and parents called the cops. There was no altercation and he was not trying to defend himself. He was just trying to be cool and impress them, but that didn't happen. Yes, we had already told him not to point it at a people and taught him to treat guns and people with respect. So he spent the afternoon with a hacksaw cutting the gun into 1 inch segments. Yes, we could have donated the BB gun. But doing it this way taught him a far more important and memorable lesson.
leftyohiolib
(5,917 posts)It can't be both ways. Either the teens are capable of making wise decisions and fending for themselves or they need supervision from parents.
i run into this so much here.
MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)All or nothing until some silly magic age?
Thanks but I'll teach my kids in degrees of responsibility and authority.
leftyohiolib
(5,917 posts)
Fla_Democrat
(2,547 posts)and backed over it with his Prius, or Volt...... I doubt it would have generated 1/10th the outrage it has sparked here. 
moriah
(8,311 posts)The only time my mother laid hands on me after I turned 12 was one day when I got really mouthy with her. I was disrespectful and I pissed her off, and she put her hands around my throat.
I just looked at her, and then she realized she had lost control. She regretted it.
In my mind, it's not the cold anger of premeditated punishment that is likely to result in harm to the child. It's the hot anger and instinctive violent response -- like my mother putting her hands around my throat. That's why when I have kids if I choose to spank them I will not do it immediately after an infraction, especially if I am angry. I will give myself a chance to calm down. I do not want to accidentally hurt my child more than I intended.
Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)If he works in IT, he understands that when you post a video to YouTube, you're sharing it with the entire world and what that means. Do you really think he rationally decided that he wanted 17 million people to see him shoot his daugher's laptop? Or do you think maybe he acted in the heat of the moment and just didn't consider that 17 million people might see it, whereas if he had cooled off he would've realized it.
moriah
(8,311 posts)Last edited Sun Feb 12, 2012, 12:18 PM - Edit history (1)
Just like the parents who have made their kids stand on street corners wearing signs detailing their wrongdoing, the humiliation is part of the intended punishment.
I really don't think this man intended to harm his child. When I first saw this story, though, my first thought was, "What did that poor laptop ever do to you?" I guess some people have more money to waste than I do. (I have a friend who did something similar - though not with a gun - to his daughter's Xbox, and I felt much the same.)
Edit to add: my friend used a very large hammer on the Xbox. The infraction? She was not doing her homework. A hammer may have other uses, but if violence against a treasured object is a metaphor for violence to the person it's pretty darn similar.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)and then do this miserable public display of it all.....
This guy gave me the creeps. A controlling mean monster.
Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)And the media got their hands on it? This is basically the same thing, except that Alec Baldwin didn't have a choice in the matter. This guy overreacted, as parents sometimes do when they get frustrated. But he was a fucking idiot for voluntarily sharing that overreaction with the world.
Shooting your daughter's laptop is a stupid overreaction that you can apologize and make up for later. Shooting your daughter's laptop in front of the entire world is something that's much harder to make up for.
Nostradammit
(2,921 posts)PavePusher
(15,374 posts)grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)
secondvariety
(1,245 posts)blowhard pipsqueak with a gun. America is full of them. I hope his daughter gets away from him and never looks back.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)because their teenager says they hate them, has got an anger management problem.
I think that maybe that father should be investigated for abuse.
What a stupid, vengeful, ignoramus.
Every teenager that walks the face of this earth has said at one time or another they hate their parents.
And it seems there are some family dynamics at play. I learned from his video that he is remarried, so their is a step mother involved, and obviously a divorce has taken place.
If my teenager did this, I would laugh and say take the damn post down, you sound like a stupid teenager. That is if I saw the facebook page. I don't keep track of that stuff. I'm a pretty in tune mom and as long as the grades are good, and I don't see harmful behavior, I see no need to invade that privacy. I don't go looking for stuff, when there is a problem, it usually finds me.
I understand my teenager will hate me some days... big whoop!
ohnoimscared
(20 posts)you need to understand that there is a big difference between hurting the daughter and hurting a stupid laptop
You need to calm down
the very daughter we are talking about is not even afraid for her life like you people are for hers.
http://www.litefm.com/cc-common/mainheadlines3.html?feed=421220&article=9744152
there is where she responds
TBF
(32,060 posts)
Sometimes parents do not make good choices.
Suji to Seoul
(2,035 posts)Since children have more rights than adults in today's america:
1) No teacher should fail a student because there is NO SCENARIO under which a teacher is justified in threatening a child with potential life altering poor grades.
2) No adult should ever admonish a child because there is NO SCENARIO under which an adult is justified with threatening a child with imposing their will on the child. People should respect a child's individuality.
3) No adult should ever go into a child's room to remove anything the adult deems questionable or in order to punish, because there is NO SCENARIO under which an adult is justified with entering the private domain of a child. Adults need to respect a child's privacy.
4) No adult should ever get so angry as to confiscate or break something that the ADULT bought the child with their hard earned money, because there is NO SCENARIO under which children have any responsibility for their actions. Children are perfect and completely without flaw.
George Carlin was right:
MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)As for 4.
Breaking and smashing things to "teach a lesson" is moronic.
Suji to Seoul
(2,035 posts)Good for him!
I hope that little turd enjoys being grounded.
MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)Is a little turd?
Land Shark
(6,346 posts)Parental termination cases can be filed in certain cases of more extreme neglect or abuse, but not for a single case of destroying property. The OP, while making a fair point that this is not good parenting, goes well beyond the pale -- just like the behavior it criticizes -- and suggests that a person is not qualified to be a parent if they destroy property. While I suppose no parental termination action is expressly threatened, it is suggested, and that goes well beyond what the law allows in its own way.
Would be best just to urge reconsidering the behavior on an ethical basis and not suggest the very right to parent is undermined due to lack of "qualifications". Maybe if the behavior was a pattern repeated over a serious length of time the suggestion would be approaching the range of debate-ability.
In other words, there "is NO SCENARIO under which you are justified in threatening {the parents of a} child with {the} violence {of parental termination}, period" based on a single instance of property destruction.
aquart
(69,014 posts)Shows real maturity and restraint. I know I'm impressed.
obamanut2012
(26,076 posts)He hacked into her account.
It's no different than if he found her diary read it, and made photocopies of it and gave it to everyone they know, and bought a few page age in USA Today and had it printed.
It's none of his damned business what she says to her friends about her life. That's what teens do, especially girls (imo).
And, as a safe and responsible gun owner, yahoos like this would use a gun in a very unsafe way piss me off. They make us all look bad.
ohnoimscared
(20 posts)She put something on the internet. What if she gets even more pissed off next time and decides to "vent" on Facebook and she says something really exaggerated because she is really pissed this time. Then next thing they know the cops are at the door arresting her father for something he didn't do all because she was pissed.
lynne
(3,118 posts)- saw somewhere else that they have a family FB account, believe for a pet. She had set her privacy so her father couldn't see her wall BUT she failed to hide her wall from the family pet FB page. Dad went to the family page to upload a photo and her post appeared on that wall.
Silly girl, never post anything you don't want someone to see on FB as there are ton's of ways they could run into it.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)... my first reaction to seeing the title was, well, duh!
I had seen the "laptop dad" video earlier, or at least the beginning. It was obvious the guy was an ass, so I quit early and didn't see the destruction of the laptop.
I certainly agree violence toward people or inanimate objects isn't appropriate. What do you suppose his daughter learned from his behavior?
TBF
(32,060 posts)chervilant
(8,267 posts)I am concerned when I see adults minimize this father's abusive behavior. In an extensive and respected body of research, Gelles, Straus and Steinmetz contend there are serious unintended consequences when physical violence is used against children:
1) Children learn to associate love with violence, since those who love them are allowed to hit them.
2) Children learn that when something is really important, it justifies the use of physical violence.
3) Recurrent incidences of physical punishment become a fundamental part of a child's personality and world view, readily generalized to adult intimate relationships, or considered a normative, justifiable response when the now adult individual feels threatened or angry.
After more than twenty-five years of advocacy for survivors of relationship violence, I can assure you that 'spanking' our children perpetuates a poisonous pedagogy that saddles a significant portion of our population with trust issues, poor conflict resolution skills, marginal interpersonal skills and aggression issues. Relationship violence is still a ubiquitous problem globally, and most of our teens (4 out of 5 girls) think that their intimate partners are justified in slapping them if they've done or said something 'wrong.'
For more information, read anything by Alice Miller (Thou Shalt not be Aware, For your own Good, and The Drama of the Gifted Child). Magical Child by Joseph Chilton Pearce is another good resource.
But, please, whatever else you do, stop applauding this father's actions.
Oh, and, consider this: children are the ONLY members of our species that you can strike with impunity. If you dare to hit another adult, you have to consider the likely legal consequences.
TBF
(32,060 posts)chervilant
(8,267 posts)My response is to the thread as a whole, and in total support of what theWraith posted hereinabove.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Did you mean to reply to another poster?
chervilant
(8,267 posts)My first sentence
I am concerned when I see adults minimize this father's abusive behavior.
and my entire post is in complete agreement with the author of this OP.
your post is meant for the entire thread gotcha. Thanks. 
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)varelse
(4,062 posts)and I thank you for posting this.
inna
(8,809 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Welcome to the latest DU crazy-topic du jour!
inna
(8,809 posts) 
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)What we know is this: A teenager bad-mouthed her father. (Not unusual.) The father decided to make a youtube post about it, including his actions of destroying the teenager's supposed computer. (Quite bizarre.) Many people think this is good parenting. (VERY BIZARRE!)
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)
white_wolf
(6,238 posts)Anyone who reacts with violence to something as petty being "disrespected" by their daughter is probably not fit to be a parent. Hell, I'd hate to work with the guy, what if I said something he didn't like, is he going to break my laptop? The guy sounds like he has serious anger issues and I'm shocked to see so many DUers defending this guy.
As to her disrespecting him, well respect is a two way street and it doesn't sound like this guy was respecting his daughter's privacy at all by hacking into her Facebook account. This guy is clearly not fit to be a parent. What an ass.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)rocktivity
(44,576 posts)is due to genetics.
rocktivity
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)And/or environment.
TheWraith
(24,331 posts)If she has a problem with impulse control, temper, and fits of self-centeredness... well, we know where she got it.
A HERETIC I AM
(24,368 posts)Actually, yes it does.
If he had shot at HER over this whole thing, we wouldn't have read about it on the internet.
It would have made the evening news.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)trying to reason with people who deny what is in front of their eyes.
In violent @sshole mental 15 yr old dad's video, we have destruction of property, public humiliation and brandishing of weapons.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)
redqueen
(115,103 posts)It seems so obvious to me, so intuitive.
Would you please consider making that the subject of an OP?
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)I think I've pretty much talked people's ear off.
Here's a post I found this morning about that chart and DV Dad:
This is the Domestic Violence Power and Control Wheel. Related trigger warnings apply (and note that it is based specifically on male/female relationships where the man is the abuser).
Note the following points included on the wheel:
-Displaying weapons
-Destruction of (victim’s) property
-Humiliation (of victim)
-Monitoring and controlling the victim
Now look at the section of the wheel on minimizing and denying.
One thing abusers are really good at is making their victims feel like no one is on their side. They isolate by triangling in third parties and then getting said third parties to back them up. In this case, this abusive father has brought in the entire fucking internet to yuk it up about his abuse, because if so many people can see it and think it’s admirable/funny/etc, it CAN’T be that bad! The message sent to the victim by this is: no one is going to help you. I’m right and you’re wrong and this is how it’s going to be forever.
If you think you’re not playing into the cycle of abuse YOURSELF when you laugh and and celebrate that video, you’re wrong. You are. That girl and her dad may never know it, but you CERTAINLY are.
http://transstingray.tumblr.com/post/17460707687/trigger-warning-child-abuse-more-on-that-dad-shoots
The story got a lot of attention on boards that deal with DV. Duh.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Everything he did was about him.
That's not parenting.
former9thward
(32,005 posts)The father did nothing wrong. Some people are freaking out because the horrible gun was used. If he had just thrown the laptop in a trash compactor they would not care. The child feels entitled and privileged in addition to being lazy. Let the "cleaning lady" do all of the small amount of work she is expected to do. That people stick up for this child says alot about them.
Progression
(30 posts)I have heard much criticism that effectively states "all I saw was a bitter angry man transferring that bitter rage into his daughter". From my perspective, he did seem to be driven by rage as he started losing composure near the end of the video. This appears to be more of a control issue than anything else.
lynne
(3,118 posts)What if he had chopped it in two with a chainsaw? Or thrown it into a fire?
FWIW, I've watched it twice and did not see any indication of the child being threatened with violence. He permanently took away an object in a fashion she'll not soon forget. Can't help but to think that this would be a non-story had he destroyed it by throwing it in the river instead of shooting it with a gun.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)joeybee12
(56,177 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)lunatica
(53,410 posts)His daughter now knows, at the very least, that if you want to get even you go out and destroy something precious to that person and humiliate them publicly.
Your children learn from your actions about how to react. His gloat won't last long.