Isn't it time to teach us males, what you learned in 7th grade assembly?

[WingDinger]

Men havent a real clue, what is involved in being of the other sex. Hormonal therapies exist around cancer, chronic pain from endometriosis etc.

My high school girlfriend, had to go on the pill, and her mother was none too pleased.

Even disregarding the right of women to control their childbearing frequency, or at all, how males, in cloistered male communities, with vows of celibacy, often leading to bad effect, can dictate how women will be looked after, is bunk. It will not stand.

This disregard for womens safety, will split the religion. It is coming.

My father, layed in the hospital, dying, and was visited by a priest, as he was Catholic, as am I, according to baptism records. He required my father, who was facing open heart surgery, to repent from his using birth control. My father chose sanely, to tell the priest to get the hell outta here. In "78".

The Catholic religion, is over reaching. The power structure, is walking a tightrope, taking hubristic positions, against popular catholic opinion.

This whole subject will severely harm republicans, or the Catholic power structure will step back. They will lose women. IF they push this.

But we need an education about being a woman. Most of us are clueless.

Once they know that not allowing hormonal therapy will kill many women, and doom other women to constant pain, they will not continue.

But, again, we need educating.

[Warpy]

1. Oh, they'll come around eventually

say in 500 years or so, the same amount of time it took for them to forgive Galileo for being right.

However, I'll go a bit farther than you do: if the church wants to survive, it will have to break with the Vatican.

The Vatican has conducted its war against women and children for far too long for mere education to work.

[Zalatix]

2. -1 for broadbrushing!

SOME of us males don't know. Others of us do know.

I've known about the benefits of hormonal therapy, birth control and fertility control, as well as condoms and everything else, since high school.

Please stop bashing men. I know this is the DU, though, and "men haven't a real clue" gets wild applause here. Saying the same about women will get your shit MIR'd, or slapped down by a jury at best.

[WingDinger]

6. You tell me, evil? Or ignorant?

[kestrel91316]

7. Implying that women are man-haters is an old RW tactic. Just FYI.

And it just won't hold water here.

Go whine elsewhere.

[WingDinger]

9. Your dispassion is showing, NOT.

You have some kind of issue. I will not disrespect you by head shrinking.

[Zalatix]

11. You mean it's wrong to have a problem with erroneous broad brushing?

I'm calling you out. Show us specifically what the harm is in opposing comments that broad brush an entire gender as clueless about something.

Post it. Right here. Tell us what the problem is with that.

[WingDinger]

15. Right after you answer post #6.

[Zalatix]

16. Church doctrine is worthy of being criticized. They are in fact evil AND ignorant.

But the OP blamed the entire male gender. That was what was done wrong here.

It would have been much more accurate to say "the Catholic Church doctrine needs to change". Their leaders are the ones who don't get it. They are the ones who need teaching.

If we cannot even agree on that compromise then it is not me who has the issues or agendas here.

[WingDinger]

17. Is womens health, and autonomy being attacked by males?

What is the basis for this attack? Why are not males in general, saying what just a minute. We have mothers, wives, sisters and friends. All needing doctors that are not hamstrung by arrogant, patriarchal buffoons. Why are we not outraged?

I think enough of us are ignorant. I dont want to believe that right leaning, and religious men all dont give a shit how their rigid ideologies affect the women in their lives.

[Zalatix]

20. Women's health, and autonomy are being attacked by SOME males. And SOME women, too.

I will name names here, too.

Phyllis Schlaffly and her band of goons would count. And if you consider rape an assault on a woman's autonomy then you can also throw in Liz Trotta of Fox News, too.

I don't expect this to get through, since you are convinced that I have some kind of a misogynist agenda, but I'll try anyway. There are men and women alike who are leading an assault on women's health and autonomy. Blaming this entirely on the male gender, and broad brushing all MEN, won't get to the core of the problem.

I take it you think my compromise was part of some misogynistic agenda? Do you deny the likes of Trotta and Schlaffly?

[WingDinger]

24. We are talking about the CATHOLIC attack on womens health. And MENS tolerance of same.

WEre this NOT the case, men would be deluging their suggestion boxes, same as women do.

[Zalatix]

27. I just looked Phyllis Schlaffly up. She is Roman Catholic.

Surprise? Shocked me, too. So in effect her well-known opposition to women's health is a CATHOLIC attack.

Which kinda brings me back to my previous point... attack the Catholic Church's approach to women's health. Why can't we compromise on that? Why must you insist on claiming that the issue is entirely about men's tolerance?

[WingDinger]

29. Because the Bishops are going to push this to the moon.

The entire power structure of the Catholic Church, is male. But if it makes you and I OK, then lets agree to Phillis Shlafly being a sex traitor.

[Zalatix]

31. I said go after the Catholic leadership. I used those words specifically.

The OP title blames men when it's just a subset of them, and their gender traitorous sycophants, that are your problem. I can't prove my credentials here but I'm a lifelong Catholic who supports women's health.

[WingDinger]

32. Good, then speak out as vociferously on their behalf as you do

for us men. But letting it get the best of you, is something altogether different. I know about the anti male bias, I went to college in the seventies/eighties. But yours is hairtrigger reactionary.

[Zalatix]

33. I speak louder than that... I speak with my donation dollars.

Years ago, I started diverting my donation money from the Church to various causes concerning women's health, including PP once the Komen people had their little meltdown.

[WingDinger]

34. Good for you.

[MineralMan]

18. You can argue your point without that, you know.

Ugly stuff, namecalling.

[Zalatix]

21. I was accused of whining. I shot back in kind. Accusing me of whining is lying.

[MineralMan]

22. Whatever. Calling another DUer a liar

is simply not done here. You can say, "You are incorrect." You can say, "That's not true." You cannot say, "You are a liar."

Common courtesy and reasonable behavior forbids it, as well.

[Zalatix]

25. Let me get this right, accusing another DUer of whining is allowable?

[WingDinger]

26. You are looking silly. Stop now. Have some dignity.

Even if someone misread your obvious feminist bent, and accused you of whining, that still doesnt make them a liar necessarily.

[Zalatix]

30. I have all of my dignity. Stop falsely accusing people of stuff. Sheesh.

[MineralMan]

28. Most of the time, a jury will not hide a post

that says "Go whine elsewhere," particularly if there has been whining. Calling someone a liar is much different than that.

[Quantess]

35. Calling someone a liar is a personal attack. I was juror #2.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Calls a DUer a liar. In the title of the reply. This has never been acceptable at DU, and it's still not. It's easy to argue a point without calling another DUer a liar.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Feb 13, 2012, 05:09 PM, and the Jury voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: I'll stand up for the civility rule even if no one else will (like when I'm the one being called a liar ... 'cause that's true doncha know and so it's just fine). We don't call other DUers "liar". That is all. Demand substantiation of an allegation, demand retraction, characterise a statement as false ... do not call another DUer a liar. - iverglas
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: If only he hadn't called her a liar.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: There is no basis for saying "you are a liar". Personal attack.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I'm a woman, and I don't think the poster implied women are "man-haters". OTOH, he could have replied to the OP with much more sensitivity, but I don't think his reply should be hidden.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Zalatix]

36. I'm self-deleting, WITH PROTEST.

Any rule that says accusing someone of whining isn't a personal attack, while defining "you're a liar" as a personal attack, is a crazy rule.

It makes me sick to think people are just allowed to behave like that without even any criticism.

[Quantess]

38. That was probably a good idea.

Personally, I don't understand what the defensiveness is about. I didn't see the OP as a broad brush criticism at all, just an acknowledgement that males have the lions share of control over the family planning conversation, while at the same time too many of the loudest voices are hopelessly ignorant and unwilling to listen to women.

Living in a woman's body on a daily basis kind of gives me an edge about what women's reproductive health means to women, in ways that can't be learned from a book. But, if you know a lot about the realities of women's bodies, that's commendable, and nobody is criticizing you for it! It's not about you.

Your reaction reminds me of when women start talking about being sexually harrassed, and then all of a sudden some men get defensive, as though they are afraid of being lumped in with sexual harrassers just because they are males too. I find it odd. For example my ex boyfriend wouldn't dream of sexually harrassing anyone, but he argued with me and didn't seem to believe me when I told him about being sexually harassed on the street, often. He became very defensive, as though he had to defend his entire gender.

[Zalatix]

40. "Men havent a real clue" is a statement of collective guilt that I do not share

because I am not a man who needs a clue, and neither were the men in my family, or those that I associate with. I don't associate with people who don't know instinctively about why women need better access to health care, including birth control.

So when someone comes along and says "Men havent a real clue" I have to ask... which men are these? The subject matter is about Catholics, so why not just say Catholic men? It is still wrong (seeing as I'm one myself) but I guess it's better than broadbrushing the entire gender.

It's scary that "the Catholic leadership hasn't a real clue" is too repulsive an option for a compromise. It always has to be &quot Implied ALL) MEN haven't a clue" or else it's called getting defensive.

Will this discussion ever get past &quot implied all) men haven't a real clue"? It totally marginalizes those of us who do have a clue.

[Taverner]

3. Agreed.

And yes, men have to go out of their way to find a basis for empathy

[Zalatix]

12. Proof, please?

Why does everyone here have to portray the entire male gender as bad?

[MineralMan]

19. Everyone here is doing that?

Really? You're accusing someone of "broadbrushing." Perhaps you should think about that for a few moments.

[HockeyMom]

4. They certainly knew THIS 12 year old girl was missing a lot of school

from severe cramps and heavy periods for 7 full days. I couldn't go to school when I couldn't stand up, or was in the bathroom on the hour changing my pad, to put it bluntly. Do you know how humilating it is to wear plastic panties at 12 years old to TRY to, um, prevent it from getting, nevermind. Was I supposed to get married and make babies at 12 years old?

I prayed away my MEDICAL problem? Miracle? No, the Pill, and a lot of B12 vitamins for anemia, solved my problem. Besides the birth control issue, the MEDICAL issue makes me furious.

BTW, not just my Mom recognized the health issue. My DAD too said that this could not possibly be healthy for a young girl. Seeing my PAIN upset him greatly. Apparantely, the male bishops of the CC, have NO COMPASSION; for either women or young girls.

[Aerows]

5. It makes me furious, too

They need to mind their own business. They wouldn't dare tell a man not to take medication that relieved a medical condition so why in the HELL do they come off telling women to?

Leave practicing medicine to medical doctors.

[hedgehog]

23. Of course the Pill is OK if you're not using it

to have mad, mad, mad passionate sex without worry about having a baby! What i can't figure out is how the bishops planned to tell which of their employees were using the pill for lady problems and which were using the Pill to sin, sin sin!

[MineralMan]

10. You can learn all of that for yourself,

since you're an adult and, I assume from your title, a man. There are books that explain what was taught to girls in that class, you know. When I was growing up, that was taught in 5th grade. Being a curious kid, I went to the library and learned about it all myself.

As an adult, you can read even better books. "Our Bodies, Ourselves" is the one I'd recommend for you. Your local library will have a copy. Once you read it, you'll know about it all. If you'd rather not read a book, you can go to this website: http://www.ourbodiesourselves.org/

So, as an adult, there is really no excuse for not knowing about all that stuff. You don't need a class. You just need to learn, and that's easy.

[WingDinger]

13. I know, the PROVERBial male needs to know.

I have heard MANY males, punditzes and others, saying that Catholics shouldnt have to provide contraception. That God said they could. And disregarding altogether the health aspects of that. Seemingly totally ignorant to the reality.

So, again I ask. Are males that say dont allow women contraception, even under doctors health orders. evil or ignorant?

[MineralMan]

14. Yes, well, I was writing generically.

Many men are ignorant about the working of the female reproductive system. Some men are evil. It's hard to say which is the case, most of the time.

Frankly, I've never understood the reluctance many men have about learning these things. It's easy to do and provides at least some insight. However, evil people do not really benefit from just learning. They will be evil, regardless.

[SomethingFishy]

37. "They will lose women if they push this."

"This disregard for womens safety"..

Are you fucking kidding me?

The Catholic Church is guilty of covering up, paying off and turning a blind eye to the molestation of THOUSANDS of children all over the world. A Global criminal conspiracy to cover up the serial molestation of young children. Priests who were CAUGHT were sent off to new parishes to find a whole new group of kids to choose from.

Fuck the Catholic Church. Fucking criminals.

Sorry, if that insults Catholics, but I was one once. I fucking wised up.



Oh and BTW no amount of education is going to let a man understand what it's like to be a woman. The best we can do is TRUST THEM when they tell us what it is they want or need.

Why the fucking church is involved in this at all is beyond me. If they don't want to abide by the rules then they can damn well start paying taxes.

[woolldog]

39. Im sick of these male bashing posts.

[RegieRocker]

41. The catholic church stance on this topic is related to "it's God's will".

Except for one thing. They think women are lower than man. They believe women should suffer for the original sin. Medical care is just that. They do not preach God's will when it comes to a priest needing health care. It is an attack on women and always has been.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

42. Some men are ignorant of female anatomy and functions.

Not all but a lot of them.

My ex husband thought that when I was pregnant, I got fat and didn't get any exercise and that's why I had to stay home and not work.

I was staying home because I was disabled by my pregnancy. I was lying around the house trying to just eat, sleep and breathe.

He didn't know the difference between fat and a baby growing in my uterus and using my resources like oxygen. Or he just liked to tell me I was lazy. he told me I was lazy when I was in the hospital room right after I delivered our baby by c-section. I could not get out of bed for two days due to spinal anesthesia and major abdominal surgery. He didn't want to understand. I should have told him to go to hell I suppose.