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Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:22 PM

 

I wonder if Bradley Manning's torture encouraged Snowden to leave the US

before revealing his info?

I'd imagine the White House thought that torturing Manning and denying him due process, in a very public way, would terrify whistleblowers into silence. Perhaps it's just made them more evasive.

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Reply I wonder if Bradley Manning's torture encouraged Snowden to leave the US (Original post)
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 OP
nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #1
mike_c Jun 2013 #3
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #4
OnyxCollie Jun 2013 #138
pscot Jun 2013 #2
rhett o rick Jun 2013 #122
pscot Jun 2013 #127
rhett o rick Jun 2013 #129
pscot Jun 2013 #130
rhett o rick Jun 2013 #132
Arctic Dave Jun 2013 #5
rhett o rick Jun 2013 #133
xchrom Jun 2013 #6
Autumn Jun 2013 #7
dipsydoodle Jun 2013 #8
gulliver Jun 2013 #9
MattFromKY Jun 2013 #11
mhatrw Jun 2013 #23
sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #46
nineteen50 Jun 2013 #140
ProSense Jun 2013 #10
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #16
ProSense Jun 2013 #22
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #25
tridim Jun 2013 #29
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #34
tridim Jun 2013 #36
DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #38
OnyxCollie Jun 2013 #142
Hydra Jun 2013 #77
sibelian Jun 2013 #107
Hydra Jun 2013 #117
midnight Jun 2013 #116
Hydra Jun 2013 #118
midnight Jun 2013 #119
Democracyinkind Jun 2013 #152
sibelian Jun 2013 #111
sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #50
Coccydynia Jun 2013 #55
JimDandy Jun 2013 #12
okaawhatever Jun 2013 #13
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #17
East Coast Pirate Jun 2013 #44
struggle4progress Jun 2013 #54
okaawhatever Jun 2013 #151
struggle4progress Jun 2013 #160
RVN VET Jun 2013 #166
struggle4progress Jun 2013 #167
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #169
struggle4progress Jun 2013 #170
Democracyinkind Jun 2013 #148
michigandem58 Jun 2013 #14
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #18
Democracyinkind Jun 2013 #149
michigandem58 Jun 2013 #154
Democracyinkind Jun 2013 #155
lamp_shade Jun 2013 #15
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #19
tridim Jun 2013 #21
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #24
tridim Jun 2013 #27
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #32
Maedhros Jun 2013 #136
burnodo Jun 2013 #64
tridim Jun 2013 #73
morningfog Jun 2013 #126
NorthCarolina Jun 2013 #162
LondonReign2 Jun 2013 #112
Democracyinkind Jun 2013 #153
LondonReign2 Jun 2013 #168
sibelian Jun 2013 #109
tridim Jun 2013 #113
sibelian Jun 2013 #121
rhett o rick Jun 2013 #124
nashville_brook Jun 2013 #31
rhett o rick Jun 2013 #125
backscatter712 Jun 2013 #114
rhett o rick Jun 2013 #123
krawhitham Jun 2013 #147
mhatrw Jun 2013 #20
MotherPetrie Jun 2013 #26
Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #28
nashville_brook Jun 2013 #30
Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #33
bvar22 Jun 2013 #35
Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #39
Dragonfli Jun 2013 #40
tblue Jun 2013 #49
frylock Jun 2013 #57
sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #56
backscatter712 Jun 2013 #115
Dragonfli Jun 2013 #37
OnyxCollie Jun 2013 #145
Warren Stupidity Jun 2013 #63
DeSwiss Jun 2013 #41
tblue Jun 2013 #45
DeSwiss Jun 2013 #62
Hydra Jun 2013 #80
DeSwiss Jun 2013 #94
Omaha Steve Jun 2013 #42
Demeter Jun 2013 #60
totodeinhere Jun 2013 #69
Omaha Steve Jun 2013 #75
totodeinhere Jun 2013 #99
DeSwiss Jun 2013 #95
tblue Jun 2013 #43
blkmusclmachine Jun 2013 #47
DevonRex Jun 2013 #48
JI7 Jun 2013 #52
DevonRex Jun 2013 #66
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #53
DevonRex Jun 2013 #79
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #83
DevonRex Jun 2013 #96
treestar Jun 2013 #84
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #85
treestar Jun 2013 #91
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #92
treestar Jun 2013 #97
struggle4progress Jun 2013 #146
totodeinhere Jun 2013 #100
Pterodactyl Jun 2013 #51
L0oniX Jun 2013 #143
Pterodactyl Jun 2013 #171
L0oniX Jun 2013 #172
Pterodactyl Jun 2013 #173
dflprincess Jun 2013 #58
truebluegreen Jun 2013 #59
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #72
truebluegreen Jun 2013 #74
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #76
truebluegreen Jun 2013 #82
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #86
truebluegreen Jun 2013 #93
felix_numinous Jun 2013 #150
truebluegreen Jun 2013 #156
Demeter Jun 2013 #61
Warren Stupidity Jun 2013 #65
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #68
JDPriestly Jun 2013 #67
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #70
navarth Jun 2013 #71
pnwmom Jun 2013 #78
Hydra Jun 2013 #81
pnwmom Jun 2013 #87
Hydra Jun 2013 #88
pnwmom Jun 2013 #89
Hydra Jun 2013 #90
Maedhros Jun 2013 #137
pnwmom Jun 2013 #157
Maedhros Jun 2013 #159
JVS Jun 2013 #98
Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #101
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #104
Post removed Jun 2013 #105
backscatter712 Jun 2013 #110
Maedhros Jun 2013 #139
ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #102
KittyWampus Jun 2013 #103
morningfog Jun 2013 #128
sibelian Jun 2013 #106
backscatter712 Jun 2013 #108
L0oniX Jun 2013 #144
pnwmom Jun 2013 #158
Octafish Jun 2013 #120
Pelican Jun 2013 #131
felix_numinous Jun 2013 #134
Enrique Jun 2013 #135
felix_numinous Jun 2013 #141
JDPriestly Jun 2013 #161
Orsino Jun 2013 #163
Babel_17 Jun 2013 #164
warrprayer Jun 2013 #165

Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:24 PM

1. That is part of it

 

It makes sending him back harder too.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #1)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:25 PM

3. yep, it makes sending him back MUCH harder...

...because his political persecution is virtually guaranteed.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #1)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:26 PM

4. Good point.

 

Now that the US is widely known to practice torture for political purposes, during two administrations.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #4)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 01:17 PM

138. It would violate Article 3 of the Geneva Convention.

 

CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment
http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html

Article 3

No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler" or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.
For the purpose of determining whether there are such grounds, the competent authorities shall take into account all relevant considerations including, where applicable, the existence in the State concerned of a consistent pattern of gross, flagrant or mass violations of human rights.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:25 PM

2. He left because he hates USA

I know it's true because I read it on the internet.

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Response to pscot (Reply #2)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 11:19 AM

122. Those that want life to be easy would agree. Kill Snowden and life goes back to wonderfulness.

 

Oh and kill Ralph Nader, another person with so much power that he is single-handedly responsible for everything that happened between 2000 and now.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #122)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 11:26 AM

127. I have my own kill list

and those 2 aren't on it.

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Response to pscot (Reply #127)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 11:36 AM

129. Is that stupid gecko on the list?

 

On my list I have those on Fox actually lower than the idiots on Corp-Media that pretend to be news-people. Ooops on second thought, Geraldo is pretty high.

Disclaimer: I dont actually wish those on my kill list dead, just made to work at McDonald's for min. wage. Well, to be completely truthful, I would like to arm some Iraqi's with shoes and turn Cheney loose to run for it thru the brush, like he does with whatever kind of birds he likes to kill. Not to hurt him of course, only to scare him good. I better stop.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #129)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 11:53 AM

130. Probably indiscrete

to publish your list on the net. Mine tends to focus on the owners and their political minions.

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Response to pscot (Reply #130)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 12:21 PM

132. You call them "owners". Not "OUr Authoritarian Overlords"? nm

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:26 PM

5. Torturing people does tend to have a negative reaction

 

from people who may be tortured down the line.

Torturers tend to think its awesome.

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Response to Arctic Dave (Reply #5)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 12:23 PM

133. Torture is a tool of terrorists. Scare the shit out of the population for control purposes. nm

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:29 PM

6. It didn't help. Nt

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:29 PM

7. I think so. I know if I were in his shoes I would have gotten

the fuck out of the country first.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:30 PM

8. Good guess.

.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:31 PM

9. Obviously Snowden learned from Manning.

Manning trusted WikiLeaks, and look where it got him. Snowden thought he would try an unscrupulous quasi-journalist. He won't get tortured, but a lot of other people probably will be thanks to him.

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Response to gulliver (Reply #9)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:34 PM

11. If this keeps up, they're going to have to add another option

 

To the Children of the Night hotline.

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Response to gulliver (Reply #9)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:55 PM

23. Not to mention logic! n/t

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Response to gulliver (Reply #9)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:59 PM

46. Wikileaks tortured Manning?

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Response to gulliver (Reply #9)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 01:21 PM

140. Obviously you know more than I do

can you tell me why others and which others will be tortured because of Snowden? I keep hearing all these bad things are and are going to happen but no specifics Why?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:34 PM

10. Do the American people

"I'd imagine the White House thought that torturing Manning and denying him due process, in a very public way, would terrify whistleblowers into silence. Perhaps it's just made them more evasive."

...know that they re-elected a President who "thought that torturing Manning and denying him due process, in a very public way, would terrify whistleblowers into silence." (Oh, and it clearly didn't have that effect on Snowden (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023083768)

I mean, this alleged "torturing" of Manning by the WH happened before the election, right?

Let's say your claim is true, did you know that you were voting for such a man?

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Response to ProSense (Reply #10)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:49 PM

16. Of course. Manning's torture was publicized.

 

Did you *not* know you were voting for such a man?

But Romney would likely have been much worse.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #16)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:54 PM

22. "But Romney would likely have been much worse."

That's your response?



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Response to ProSense (Reply #22)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:58 PM

25. OK, I give up.

 

What would the correct response be?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #25)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:04 PM

29. "I'm wrong, and I'm sorry" nt

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Response to tridim (Reply #29)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:19 PM

34. Because Manning needed to be held without trial for years?

 

Last edited Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:11 AM - Edit history (1)

Solitary confinement for a year?

Made to sleep naked without sheets, under constant observation?

Those aren't torture? Or the President didn't know? Or the President was powerless to stop it? I'm curious as to your thinking, here.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #34)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:35 PM

36. You live in Cuckooville. nt

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Response to tridim (Reply #36)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:41 PM

38. Yes, but do you actually have anything of substance to add?

 

Your post is worthy of a second grader, and a not-very-attentive one at that. Outside of telling 3WM that he's crazy, without giving the slightest rationale for the accusation, do you have anything?

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Response to tridim (Reply #36)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 01:26 PM

142. You live in Denial.

 

Marine inquiry faults Bradley Manning treatment
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/58991.html#ixzz2XFmwnHZP

The commander of the Marine base where Wikileaks suspect Pvt. Bradley Manning was jailed for nearly 10 months ordered an inquiry into his treatment and then overruled one of the investigator’s findings, Marine Corps documents obtained by POLITICO show.

A special investigation determined that Manning’s jailers violated Navy policy by keeping him on suicide watch after psychiatrists concluded he was not a threat to himself, but the commander rejected that conclusion, according to the documents.

The Obama administration this year became embroiled in questions over Manning’s treatment at Quantico after his jail conditions — including a requirement at one point that he be stripped of all clothing — drew complaints from human rights groups and liberal activists.

Then-State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley joined in the criticism, calling Manning’s treatment “ridiculous and counterproductive and stupid.” After President Barack Obama was asked about Crowley’s comments at a White House press conference, Crowley resigned. Obama said the military had assured him that Manning’s treatment was appropriate. But in April Manning was moved to Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, where he is being detained under more lax conditions.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #34)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:50 PM

77. You forgot the drugs

The people who got to see Manning noticed that they were keeping him drugged up and slowly breaking his mind. On top of all the other fun stuff.

And people here at DU approved. I saw it as a REALLY bad sign- they were torturing an American citizen, a soldier no less, and denying him due process.

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Response to Hydra (Reply #77)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 10:00 AM

107. Nakedness as well, I think?

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Response to sibelian (Reply #107)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 10:17 AM

117. Yup, and keeping him on suicide watch when he wasn't suicidal

Not quite as bad as Jose Padilla, but it was obvious what they were trying to do to him.

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Response to Hydra (Reply #77)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 10:13 AM

116. Soldiers without due process all the while using them as a shield of spreading freedom. Nothing

more outrages!

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Response to midnight (Reply #116)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 10:23 AM

118. Ya, I love how they say we need to "Support our troops"

By supporting their bad policies. They treat vets like crap, so I generally ignore them except to say "Bring our troops home, dammit!!"

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Response to Hydra (Reply #118)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 10:36 AM

119. It really is the only thing to say-bring them home...

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #34)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 01:50 PM

152. If they let him sleep at all, that is.

He probably got an average of 3-4 non consequitive hours of sleep during the first months.

Many DUer's think that's cool and dandy, judging from this thread. They're simply too small minded to imagine the effects that this can have. There's a reason these practices are almost universally forbidden.

But who am I talking to? I'm preaching to the choir, I know...

As if anyone of these cowards in this thread making flippant jokes about Bradley's treatment would stand more than 1 day of such.

Disguting and disappointing, aka the new normal for D's / Duers. It makes one almost desire a return of the shrub.

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Response to tridim (Reply #29)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 10:04 AM

111. Well he isn't wrong.


So why should he be sorry?

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Response to ProSense (Reply #22)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 08:05 PM

50. Who was president when Manning was being tortured?

Airc, in the end, the torture stopped after State Dept official Crowley stated publicly that the way Manning was being treated was 'stupid'. He resigned after making that statement. But his statement had an effect, thankfully and Manning was moved from the prison where he had been tortured to another prison.

Torturing Whistle Blowers negates any agreement regarding extradition with allies in the EU or any member of the UN. The International standards are clear, no nation is obliged to extradite anyone to a country where that person is likely to be subjected to torture. THAT is what Crowley, an intelligent man, was referring to.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #16)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 08:32 PM

55. And here we see the failure of the Democratic Party.

 

Vote for us. We'll only cut off three fingers. The other party, they'll cut off five.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:34 PM

12. I imagine that was the main reason. n/t

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:34 PM

13. That's funny. Your always coming up with the craziest consiracy theories. What

torture did Manning endure? Due process? Well, we'll see. Manning can appeal to scotus and if your claims are true they will be revealed then. Also, please stop using the word "whistleblower" when you mean "criminal". There are true whistleblowers, as defined by law, these two don't come close.

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Response to okaawhatever (Reply #13)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:52 PM

17. Bradley Manning's treatment was cruel and inhuman, UN torture chief rules

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #17)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:59 PM

44. Stick in the mud.

 

Torture is fun.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #17)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 08:25 PM

54. Ed Pilkington evidently suffers from a reading comprehension problem. The UN

Special Rapporteur corresponded with the US government regarding Mr Manning but chose not to interview him and issued a report that consists largely of philosophical statements, rather than actual factual findings

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #54)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 01:48 PM

151. Thanks for that. I did remember reading something about it, and I wasn't sure if it

was from the UN, but the words "cruel and inhuman" were used to describe his being left without clothing at night when he was on suicide watch. While there may be some argument on the claim for solitary, I though that was a bit much. It was the same process for all prisoners, so it's not like they were punishing him uniquely.
Shoot if they think that's cruel and unusual they should see some of our recent scotus rulings.

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Response to okaawhatever (Reply #151)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 02:41 PM

160. The 2011 report is titled

Report of the Special Rapporteur on torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment

The Addendum A/HRC/19/61/Add.4 consists of 81 pages detailing the Special Rapporteur's correspondence with governments. Under the heading United States of America, there are two paragraphs concerning Mr Manning. Paragraph (a), titled

UA 30/12/2010
Case No.USA 20/2010
State reply:27/01/2011
19/05/2011 Allegations of prolonged solitary confinement of a soldier charged with the unauthorized disclosure of classified information

indicates that the Special Rapporteur was investigating a complaint that

... Mr. Manning was held in solitary confinement for twenty-three hours a day following his arrest in May 2010 in Iraq,and continuing through his transfer to the brig at Marine Corps Base Quantico. His solitary confinement -- lasting about eleven months -- was terminated upon his transfer from Quantico to .. Fort Leavenworth on 20 April 2011 ...

which he investigated because

... solitary confinement can amount to a breach of .. the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and .. of the Convention against Torture ...

For the investigation

... the Special Rapporteur requested an opportunity to interview him ... The US Government authorized the visit but .. could not ensure that the conversation would not be monitored. Since a non-private conversation with an inmate would violate the terms of reference applied universally in fact-finding by Special Procedures, the Special Rapporteur had to decline the invitation ...

The Special Rapporteur then reiterates

... imposing seriously punitive conditions of detention on someone .. not .. found guilty of any crime is a violation of .. physical and psychological integrity as well as .. presumption of innocence. The Special Rapporteur again renews his request for a private and unmonitored meeting with Mr. Manning to assess his conditions of detention ...

Paragraph (b) notes his further request for an unmonitored meeting with the prisoner produced no official response

Personally, I believe the US government should have granted the Special Rapporteur's request for an unmonitored meeting, but my concern (regarding the failure to do so) is ameliorated somewhat the fact that Mr Manning has access to an attorney who can meet with him unmonitored and who would be in a position to raise any maltreatment issues. The most that can be said to date in this regard, however, is that 112 days have been removed from whatever sentence Manning ultimately receives, on the grounds that

... Manning's confinement was "more rigorous than necessary" ...<and> ... "became excessive in relation to legitimate government interests" ...
Judge reduces Bradley Manning's possible sentence
AP/ January 8, 2013, 4:38 PM

which falls rather short of the claim Manning has been tortured

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #160)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:15 PM

166. So technically it was not torture

yet he was tortured -- held in solitary, humiliated, left wondering whether his life was in jeopardy, not offered the possibility of a trial of any sort and, then, provided one after he'd already been, essentially, pre-punished for what he was alleged to have done (even though the allegations themselves were never really made clear).

Yep, I would have run if I were Snowden. Even more than Manning's incarceration and ugly treatment, though, i would have been concerned about renditioning and that old South American standby that the School of the americas provided graduate school training in: being "desaparecido".

Still a lot of mystery about Snowden's motivations, how he got his job, what he "stole", etc., etc. But I don't doubt for an instant his justification for getting out of Dodge and staying out.

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Response to RVN VET (Reply #166)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 07:42 PM

167. No, he wasn't held in solitary; and it's been clear since charges were filed in early July 2010 that

he would be tried

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #167)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 10:31 PM

169. In early 2011, our President declared Manning to be guilty

 

Not a very suspenseful trial now...

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #169)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 10:36 PM

170. Manning has pleaded guilty without any concession from the prosecution

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Response to okaawhatever (Reply #13)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 01:37 PM

148. You should be disgusted by your post.


Manning was, for 9 months, subjected to methods that almost the whole world - and the US before Bushie was selected - deemed to be torture.

This is in the public record, everyone can google it for himself.

If you're willing to ridicule what Manning went through... Would you offer yourself for 9 months for a little experiment?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:40 PM

14. I wonder if people really believe he was tortured

 

Oh wait looks like they do.

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Response to michigandem58 (Reply #14)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 01:39 PM

149. Feel free to volunteer for 9 months of what Manning endured.

And then let's see if you're still that smarmy at the end of the first week.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #149)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 02:00 PM

154. I'm sorry

 

but I'm not a criminal. No desire to go through what Manning did, but that doesn't make it torture. Try not breaking the law.

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Response to michigandem58 (Reply #154)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 02:03 PM

155. The UN, and the rest of the world, disagrees.


As did the US before Bush was selected.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:43 PM

15. Manning was tortured? Seriously?

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Response to lamp_shade (Reply #15)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:53 PM

21. Apparently it's common knowledge in Cuckoo-Ville.

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Response to tridim (Reply #21)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:57 PM

24. And at the UN.

 

Who you don't respect, I take it.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #24)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:01 PM

27. I respect the UN, but not that particular opinion. nt

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Response to tridim (Reply #27)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:15 PM

32. And on what basis do you reject that opinion?

 

Thanks in advance.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #32)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 01:05 PM

136. It makes Obama look bad

 

ergo, it must be false.

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Response to tridim (Reply #27)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:10 PM

64. so you pick and choose

 

like a Bible-thumper

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Response to burnodo (Reply #64)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:37 PM

73. No, I'm not lockstep with the UN, or anything in life.

DERP.

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Response to tridim (Reply #73)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 11:24 AM

126. Even the Obama Administration?

 

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Response to morningfog (Reply #126)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 04:50 PM

162. LOL

 

OK, you got them on that one.

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Response to tridim (Reply #27)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 10:05 AM

112. Just to make sure I understand your position

23 hour a day naked solitary confinement for a year is not torture, does that sum up your position correctly?

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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #112)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 01:52 PM

153. Apparently.


Sleep deprivation is also cool nowadays, it seems.

I can't believe this thread. I really can't.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #153)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 08:55 PM

168. tridim has left the thread

Perhaps when one realizes they are defending torture simply because the Obama Administration does it one has second thoughts. Or at least we can hope

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Response to tridim (Reply #21)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 10:04 AM

109. What?


People are asserting that Manning wasn't tortured, now?

This Snowden thing's really got people rattled...

:wft:

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Response to sibelian (Reply #109)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 10:05 AM

113. WFT indeed.

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Response to tridim (Reply #113)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 10:44 AM

121. :)


It's not difficult. Google is your friend.

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Response to tridim (Reply #21)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 11:22 AM

124. Your responses are deteriorating into the childish range. nm

 

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Response to lamp_shade (Reply #15)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:12 PM

31. ignorance of the facts doesn't make the facts less true

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Response to nashville_brook (Reply #31)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 11:23 AM

125. How can you say that to those that have worked so hard to craft their denial bubble. nm

 

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Response to lamp_shade (Reply #15)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 10:06 AM

114. Were you living in a cave? n/t

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Response to lamp_shade (Reply #15)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 11:20 AM

123. No of course not. Now go back inside and close the door. nm

 

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Response to lamp_shade (Reply #15)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 01:34 PM

147. That has been the DU meme for a while know

It's complete bull shit, but so are a lot of DU memes lately

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:53 PM

20. Ya think?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:58 PM

26. It had to have.

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:01 PM

28. It did not encourage Snowden not to spy. It is becoming oblivious Snowden is not

Following his conscience since he is revealing more all the time. It is getting into the traitor bracket now. He is a scumbag.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #28)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:08 PM

30. spying is giving/selling information to an enemy -- guess that makes you an enemy of the state

CONGRATULATIONS!

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Response to nashville_brook (Reply #30)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:16 PM

33. Check the definition of spying again, it is exactly what scumbag Snowden did.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #33)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:33 PM

35. "Scumbag".

I notices that popping up today on DU from the predictable places.
Was that in the latest government recommended talking points distribution?

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #35)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:41 PM

39. Nope, it is a description of Snowden with a better choice of words.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #35)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:43 PM

40. I think they think it makes them sound cop like

LEOs where I live use that term as an endearing nickname for we the people, unless talking to a suit.

Authoritarians love sounding and feeling like "tough cops". Then again some of them may actually be among the brave blue few not afraid to administer street justice by group beating a handcuffed person fetal on the ground or using TG or electricity for some needed on the scene torture.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #35)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 08:05 PM

49. Authoritarians

have taken over the Democratic Party. It's clearer every day. It used to be just some of the pols--the Blue Dogs/Third Way Dems. Now it's the everyday voter putting the state before the people and the Constitution. How is that any different from the Republicans?

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Response to tblue (Reply #49)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 08:43 PM

57. it's bound to happen, what with all those rats jumping from the republican garbage scow.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #33)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 08:35 PM

56. Well, that's all very nice and everything, but do you have something more than your own opinion on

that?

Btw, Cheney and Fleischer and King share your view, not sure that is proof of anything, but they too have failed to provide anything but their over-wrought, expected, emotional diatribes in response to their spying programs being exposed.

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Response to nashville_brook (Reply #30)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 10:07 AM

115. The American people is the enemy of the state the government fears most. n/t

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #28)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:36 PM

37. OT, but are you by any chance a LEO?

I only ask because that is a cop phrase used to describe non-LEO's

They like to call people under their charge "scumbags" I assume to dehumanize them prior to beating the crap out of them for walking while poor, or giving a cop a "disrespectful" look.

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #37)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 01:32 PM

145. It's the "dehumanizing stares"

 

that cause LEO's to beat up teenagers with puppies.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #28)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:07 PM

63. "It is becoming oblivious" best subconscious error today.

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:50 PM

41. K&R

 

''And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed—if all records told the same tale—then the lie passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.''
~George Orwell, 1984


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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #41)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:59 PM

45. So scary

What have we become?

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Response to tblue (Reply #45)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:07 PM

62. The Terrorists. :-| n/t

 

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #41)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:54 PM

80. Orwell nailed it

And we're seeing a mass revision of history- where the Bush Admin was NOT wrong to start wars, spy and torture...because it's all legal now.

Just imagine what the Bushes will do when they come back in 2016 with that kind of power and public support

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Response to Hydra (Reply #80)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 11:13 PM

94. There really is no public support.

 

- Just the appearance of it.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:56 PM

42. Bradley Manning is military


Snowden is civilian. Makes it a little different.

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #42)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:05 PM

60. Not that different

 

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #42)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:21 PM

69. Torture is torture whether you are in the military or a civilian. n/t

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Response to totodeinhere (Reply #69)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:46 PM

75. Torture in the civilian world is hard to get by with


The military can do what it wants, no questions asked.

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #75)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 11:45 PM

99. Not true. The military has to go by the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

They cannot do anything they want.

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #42)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 11:22 PM

95. One HERO exposed the heinousness that we're capable of......

 

...and the other HERO exposed the vast extent to which we have lost our freedom from being surveilled by our own government with our own money paying for it, as if we were the enemy. Which I suppose we are since to psychopaths, everyone looks like the enemy.

- Either way, if we continue to focus on these HEROES and not what they've exposed, we deserve anything that happens after that.



In answer to the issue of the press and others attacking Edward Snowden instead of the NSA: ''It's like blaming the guy who turned the light on while ignoring the roaches he exposed.'' Tierra_y_Libertad

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:58 PM

43. Who would stay?

No due process. Unless you are a wealthy campaign donor, then you can do anything you want.

AG Eric Holder:

"Due process” and “judicial process” are not one and the same, particularly when it comes to national security. The Constitution guarantees due process, not judicial process.


http://m.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/03/holder-due-process-doesnt-necessarily-mean-courtroom/49509/

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 08:01 PM

47. Change you can beLIEve in

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 08:04 PM

48. Hahahaha! Couldn't be all the TSSI stuff he stole to give to Russia, China, etc.



Keep on apologizing for a fucking traitor.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #48)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 08:08 PM

52. also why go to CHina if you have a problem with torture ?

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Response to JI7 (Reply #52)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:18 PM

66. Or Russia. Sheee-it. Ole Vladimir knows a thing or two about how to torture personally.

Or how to kill silently with his bare hands in about 2 seconds. I mean, good god.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #48)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 08:24 PM

53. Some people say Snowden should have stuck around and faced the music

 

When the "music" is torture, and lack of due process, that's a particularly unlikely thing to happen.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #53)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:54 PM

79. AFAIC there's no chance in hell a spy will "stay and face the music." Neither

will a traitor. He never was a whistleblower in any sense of the word. People here were played like a fucking fiddle by the traitor and his slick PR guy who masquerades as a journalist and gives lawyers a bad name.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #79)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 10:07 PM

83. How do you define a whistleblower? nm

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #83)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 11:24 PM

96. These will help you.

5 U.S.C. § 2302
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/5/2302
http://www.iecjournal.org/iec/2011/03/whistleblowers-in-intelligence-community.html
"Whistleblowers in Intelligence Community" You can also find a PDF of the whole article to download. It's quite good.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #53)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 10:09 PM

84. He would not be tortured. He would have due process

He's more likely to be tortured by Russia, China, Ecuador.

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Response to treestar (Reply #84)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 10:10 PM

85. Like Manning? nt

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #85)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 10:32 PM

91. 1, Manning in in the military and subject to that system

2. He was not tortured. He was on suicide watch and you made it "torture" because you love to exaggerate.

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Response to treestar (Reply #91)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 10:34 PM

92. The UN said it was torture

 

I take it that you disagree with the UN?

What he experienced was not typical military process, by any means.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #92)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 11:37 PM

97. I suppose so.

Is the UN now some sort of undebatable authority? I thought lockstep was out of the question.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #92)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 01:34 PM

146. No, the UN never said Manning was tortured

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Response to treestar (Reply #84)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 11:47 PM

100. If you believe that you are extremely naive. n/t

Last edited Tue Jun 25, 2013, 05:03 PM - Edit history (1)

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 08:08 PM

51. Whoa, whoa, whoa! You actually think Barack Obama would be OK with TORTURE?

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Response to Pterodactyl (Reply #51)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 01:28 PM

143. Don't be silly. Obama does not control the military.

 

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #143)

Wed Jun 26, 2013, 08:21 AM

171. Huh? I thought he was commander in chief. When did he lose control?

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Response to Pterodactyl (Reply #171)

Wed Jun 26, 2013, 09:53 AM

172. LOL ...well maybe he just doesn't control the torture squad and Guantanamo.

 

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #172)

Wed Jun 26, 2013, 07:48 PM

173. He was certainly in control when we killed Osama Bin Laden. But then not in control of Gitmo.

Last edited Thu Jun 27, 2013, 08:26 AM - Edit history (1)

It's so hard to keep track of this conditional commander in chief thing!

So, who stole his control away? And when?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 08:47 PM

58. Good point

and probably correct.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 08:59 PM

59. It would have encouraged me to leave...

 

at this point I think any reasonable person would consider it under the circumstances.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #59)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:31 PM

72. I was just mentioning it to my wife tonight

 

Looking at the US objectively right now... Not so good. I'd like to stick around and be part of the solution, but I'm not sure there's a critical mass right now of people with open eyes and open hearts to get something going.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #72)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:44 PM

74. As luck would have it--

 

good or bad is very debatable at this point--I was forcibly retired after the crash (construction biz went away). Very luckily had some resources. Looked around and realized I could sit on the pile, watch it get smaller and hope that it out-lasted the crisis, or make a move.
A BIG move: because of health issues/pre-existing conditions/the usual BS I couldn't even relocate to another state.

So we left the country. I don't know, now, if we will come back.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #74)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:46 PM

76. May I ask where you went?

 

OK if you don't want to share.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #76)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 10:07 PM

82. No problem.

 

With my ailing 90-yr-old mother in tow, we only went as far as Mexico. She passed last year, and we are now--oddly enough--moving on to Ecuador (beautiful place, excellent climate, very inexpensive, good and growing economy...).

Sounds like we will be having company, too.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #82)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 10:19 PM

86. Sounds like a great adventure!

 

I'm envious!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #86)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 10:38 PM

93. It has been. Thanks.

 

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #74)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 01:42 PM

150. And this is what happens in countries

that abuse human rights -- there is a brain drain-- all the educated and skilled people leave.

As long as the US represented a safe haven against abuses, we were an ideal destination. If these policies continue this country will suffer yet another blow to our infrastructure.

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Response to felix_numinous (Reply #150)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 02:17 PM

156. I agree.

 

Fewer bright students will come, more educated and skilled people will leave.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:06 PM

61. Manning's torture and NSA spying and Gitmo and all have made me seriously consider leaving, too

 

and I haven't done much to incur the wrath of Obama & Co.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:12 PM

65. Greenwald reported that Snowden considered both Manning and Assange, what they did and didn't do

 

and what happened to both of them. So yes, that is why he made sure he was not in the immediate control of us authorities or compliant regimes. He also made sure that he did do an un-vetted document dump as wikileaks did so that the charge of harming military personnel, while it would of course still be made, would be more clearly nonsense.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #65)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:20 PM

68. If true, then the White House's work to terrorize whistleblowers has backfired

 

Last edited Tue Jun 25, 2013, 07:58 AM - Edit history (1)

Or maybe it's eleventy-dimensional chess of some sort. One never knows.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:19 PM

67. Probably made them more determined too.

It is counterproductive. You don't encourage loyalty that way.

You encourage loyalty by prosecuting people who lie to start a war.

You encourage loyalty by standing on a moral high ground and making the people who work for or with you proud to be working for and with you.

Obama does this well. He treats people with respect. But when you ask people to do things that offend their consciences, then you can expect disloyalty. An occasional transgression won't get a huge reaction, but as things add up, it will be precisely the people who are the most honest and hardworking and whom you need the most who will balk, become silently angry and may become disloyal.

It doesn't always work the way I have described, but it is pretty much the rule.

In business, people sometimes go and start their own competing business because they simply think they can do things better, but that is not relevant to Snowden.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #67)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:23 PM

70. True. As a manager, I've found that nothing obliterates morale worse than

 

giving some folks a pass for bad work, while holding others accountable. Rules must be set, and followed fairly.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:26 PM

71. Really an excellent, thought-provoking post, thanks. nt

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:51 PM

78. What or who encouraged him to take all the documents about US spying on foreign countries?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #78)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 09:58 PM

81. You would stay and end up tortured?

Or based on other comments, would you simply have not talked about what you saw if you were Snowden?

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Response to Hydra (Reply #81)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 10:19 PM

87. He could have left and only taken documents related to internal US surveillance,

which is what he claimed to be concerned about.

And left all the documents about US spying on other countries, which is destroying his credibility and proving to be a major distraction.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #87)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 10:24 PM

88. A fairer answer than I've seen lately

We'll have to see what he has. I just read a thread that says the gov't now has no idea how many documents he stole...which means either they're lying for effect, or Booz-Allen workers have FAR too much access to our data.

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Response to Hydra (Reply #88)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 10:26 PM

89. I think pretty much everybody agrees, if about nothing else,

that privatization of our government intelligence work was an incredibly stupid idea.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #89)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 10:30 PM

90. Highly profitable

But doesn't really deliver the desired result if we want to catch terrorists...which they don't seem to be too concerned about if Boston was any indication.

We'll have to see where Snowden goes with this, but just the fact that he popped out of Booz-Allen and was able to do all of this should be a HUGE wakeup call to people outside the system- it's broken, in a very bad way.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #87)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 01:15 PM

137. Snowden did not take documents regarding the U.S. spying on other countries

 

He took documents showing that the United States government was engaged in spying on commercial (i.e. non-governmental) enterprises located in foreign countries.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #137)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 02:18 PM

157. Not true. He also took documents related to spying on governments.

For example, while Obama was meeting with Putin, Snowden released documents related to US spying on the previous Prime Minister.

And in China, by the way, there is no bright dividing line between governmental and commercial activities.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/06/officials-how-edward-snowden-could-hurt-the-u-s/

Beyond technical systems, U.S. officials are deeply concerned that Snowden used his sensitive position to read about U.S. human assets, for example spies and informants overseas as well as safe houses and key spying centers.

They worry this recent quote from Snowden was not an exaggeration: ” I had access to the full rosters of everyone working at the NSA, the entire intelligence community, and undercover assets all over the world. The locations of every station, we have what their missions are, and so forth.”

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #157)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 02:27 PM

159. You're referring to the UK spying on Medvedev. [n/t]

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 11:40 PM

98. I'm sure it did.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 24, 2013, 11:47 PM

101. Tsk, Tsk, Manny. It's called "Enhanced Interrogation".

 

Like "Private Leisure Time" for solitary, and "Benevolent Brunches" for force feeding.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #101)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 09:52 AM

104. My bad, sorry.

 

I'm always trying to sensationalize these things.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #101)


Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #101)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 10:04 AM

110. "Conjugal visits" for prison rape, "Drug holidays" for withholding of medication from prisoners. n/t

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #101)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 01:17 PM

139. And "Liberal" for politicians that support indefinite detention, signature strikes,

 

due-process-free executions and chained CPI.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 12:08 AM

102. I don't know what he was thinking,

but you make a really good point, in my opinion.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 12:25 AM

103. No, I think his INTENT TO PASS SECRET NSA DOCUMENTS TO MULTIPLE FOREIGN COUNTRIES DID.

 

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #103)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 11:31 AM

128. I thought the info wasn't really secret?

 

I can;t believe how easy it was for a high school drop out to infiltrate the NSA and successfully access secret documents in such a short time. He exposed a soft underbelly to the NSA.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 09:59 AM

106. Seems highly probable.


It's difficult to see how a chilling effect on those who wish to expose abuse could not be brought about by such treatment of prisoners, whether you think they're justified on their actions or not.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 10:01 AM

108. That's what happens when whistleblowers don't have internal channels to go through.

Manning didn't. Drake and the other previous NSA whistleblowers tried the channels and got nowhere. Snowden didn't feel like he had channels to go through.

And when Snowden saw what happened to Manning, what did you think he was going to do? He's not stupid.

If the penalty for disclosing secrets is a year in jail, and it's normal jail, and that jail's run professionally, and not a gladiator school, or an Abu Ghraib, then maybe more people like Snowden would be happy to suck it up and serve a sentence.

But when Manning gets supermaxed, Jose Padilla gets tortured, countless other prisoners are routinely subjected to beatings, rape, random shankings, guards instigating prisoners to assault each other, deprivation of medical care, etc. etc. etc., one concludes that America's prison system has turned into medieval dungeons, and you'd have to be crazy to allow yourself to be subjected to that.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #108)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 01:30 PM

144. and those internal channels hand out punitive punishment.

 

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #108)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 02:24 PM

158. Snowden DID. And if he didn't want to go through agency channels,

he could have gone directly to his representatives in Congress.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 10:39 AM

120. He probably never heard of Jose Padilla.



Seems like most of America hasn't -- at least the swath I've queried over the past decade.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 11:55 AM

131. It implies he was tortured in the first place...

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)


Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 01:04 PM

135. if he had gone to jail like Manning

Bob Schieffer and all the rest would be hailing him as the next Rosa Parks and MLK Jr!

Or not!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 01:22 PM

141. Torture is done to intimidate

everyone else into blindly following authoritarian rule. Any sane person would leave a country knowing they would not get a fair trial and be tortured. Other motives aside.

This country has changed profoundly, and many here can witness the related shift within the Democratic Party and on this board.

It saddens me, because I am not sure how to proceed. Backing torture and banning all whistleblowing protections is a quantum leap to the right.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 03:43 PM

161. No matter what you think of Snowden, you have to admit he is an extremely

smart guy. I can believe that he was entrusted with a lot of access to the surveillance system. He must be one of the best systems administrators around. He is one of these people who can look at a complex chart and make sense of it in seconds. That is an unusual talent. But I have seen people who have it. Snowden aside from his revelations to the public is one brilliant individual.

He is really smart and I respect him just for that fact. It is a shame that his intelligence was employed to do surveillance on others. He could have been a brilliant biologist or astronomer or something really helpful.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 05:01 PM

163. Next you'll expect me to believe...

...that Abu Ghraib inspired acts of violence against the United States.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 05:17 PM

164. The more you tighten your grip, the more leakers will slip through your fingers (nt)

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 05:18 PM

165. friend told me

that if Snowden is smart he will stay in Russia.

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