I wonder if Bradley Manning's torture encouraged Snowden to leave the US

[MannyGoldstein]

before revealing his info?

I'd imagine the White House thought that torturing Manning and denying him due process, in a very public way, would terrify whistleblowers into silence. Perhaps it's just made them more evasive.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. That is part of it

It makes sending him back harder too.

[mike_c]

3. yep, it makes sending him back MUCH harder...

...because his political persecution is virtually guaranteed.

[MannyGoldstein]

4. Good point.

Now that the US is widely known to practice torture for political purposes, during two administrations.

[OnyxCollie]

138. It would violate Article 3 of the Geneva Convention.

CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment
http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html

Article 3

No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler&quot or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.
For the purpose of determining whether there are such grounds, the competent authorities shall take into account all relevant considerations including, where applicable, the existence in the State concerned of a consistent pattern of gross, flagrant or mass violations of human rights.

[pscot]

2. He left because he hates USA

I know it's true because I read it on the internet.

[rhett o rick]

122. Those that want life to be easy would agree. Kill Snowden and life goes back to wonderfulness.

Oh and kill Ralph Nader, another person with so much power that he is single-handedly responsible for everything that happened between 2000 and now.

[pscot]

127. I have my own kill list

and those 2 aren't on it.

[rhett o rick]

129. Is that stupid gecko on the list?

On my list I have those on Fox actually lower than the idiots on Corp-Media that pretend to be news-people. Ooops on second thought, Geraldo is pretty high.

Disclaimer: I dont actually wish those on my kill list dead, just made to work at McDonald's for min. wage. Well, to be completely truthful, I would like to arm some Iraqi's with shoes and turn Cheney loose to run for it thru the brush, like he does with whatever kind of birds he likes to kill. Not to hurt him of course, only to scare him good. I better stop.

[pscot]

130. Probably indiscrete

to publish your list on the net. Mine tends to focus on the owners and their political minions.

[rhett o rick]

132. You call them "owners". Not "OUr Authoritarian Overlords"? nm

[Arctic Dave]

5. Torturing people does tend to have a negative reaction

from people who may be tortured down the line.

Torturers tend to think its awesome.

[rhett o rick]

133. Torture is a tool of terrorists. Scare the shit out of the population for control purposes. nm

[xchrom]

6. It didn't help. Nt

[Autumn]

7. I think so. I know if I were in his shoes I would have gotten

the fuck out of the country first.

[dipsydoodle]

8. Good guess.

.

[gulliver]

9. Obviously Snowden learned from Manning.

Manning trusted WikiLeaks, and look where it got him. Snowden thought he would try an unscrupulous quasi-journalist. He won't get tortured, but a lot of other people probably will be thanks to him.

[MattFromKY]

11. If this keeps up, they're going to have to add another option

To the Children of the Night hotline.

[mhatrw]

23. Not to mention logic! n/t

[sabrina 1]

46. Wikileaks tortured Manning?

[nineteen50]

140. Obviously you know more than I do

can you tell me why others and which others will be tortured because of Snowden? I keep hearing all these bad things are and are going to happen but no specifics Why?

[ProSense]

10. Do the American people

"I'd imagine the White House thought that torturing Manning and denying him due process, in a very public way, would terrify whistleblowers into silence. Perhaps it's just made them more evasive."

...know that they re-elected a President who "thought that torturing Manning and denying him due process, in a very public way, would terrify whistleblowers into silence." (Oh, and it clearly didn't have that effect on Snowden (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023083768)

I mean, this alleged "torturing" of Manning by the WH happened before the election, right?

Let's say your claim is true, did you know that you were voting for such a man?

[MannyGoldstein]

16. Of course. Manning's torture was publicized.

Did you *not* know you were voting for such a man?

But Romney would likely have been much worse.

[ProSense]

22. "But Romney would likely have been much worse."

That's your response?

[MannyGoldstein]

25. OK, I give up.

What would the correct response be?

[tridim]

29. "I'm wrong, and I'm sorry" nt

[MannyGoldstein]

34. Because Manning needed to be held without trial for years?

Last edited Tue Jun 25, 2013, 07:11 AM - Edit history (1)

Solitary confinement for a year?

Made to sleep naked without sheets, under constant observation?

Those aren't torture? Or the President didn't know? Or the President was powerless to stop it? I'm curious as to your thinking, here.

[tridim]

36. You live in Cuckooville. nt

[DisgustipatedinCA]

38. Yes, but do you actually have anything of substance to add?

Your post is worthy of a second grader, and a not-very-attentive one at that. Outside of telling 3WM that he's crazy, without giving the slightest rationale for the accusation, do you have anything?

[OnyxCollie]

142. You live in Denial.

Marine inquiry faults Bradley Manning treatment
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/58991.html#ixzz2XFmwnHZP

The commander of the Marine base where Wikileaks suspect Pvt. Bradley Manning was jailed for nearly 10 months ordered an inquiry into his treatment and then overruled one of the investigator’s findings, Marine Corps documents obtained by POLITICO show.

A special investigation determined that Manning’s jailers violated Navy policy by keeping him on suicide watch after psychiatrists concluded he was not a threat to himself, but the commander rejected that conclusion, according to the documents.

The Obama administration this year became embroiled in questions over Manning’s treatment at Quantico after his jail conditions — including a requirement at one point that he be stripped of all clothing — drew complaints from human rights groups and liberal activists.

Then-State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley joined in the criticism, calling Manning’s treatment “ridiculous and counterproductive and stupid.” After President Barack Obama was asked about Crowley’s comments at a White House press conference, Crowley resigned. Obama said the military had assured him that Manning’s treatment was appropriate. But in April Manning was moved to Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, where he is being detained under more lax conditions.

[Hydra]

77. You forgot the drugs

The people who got to see Manning noticed that they were keeping him drugged up and slowly breaking his mind. On top of all the other fun stuff.

And people here at DU approved. I saw it as a REALLY bad sign- they were torturing an American citizen, a soldier no less, and denying him due process.

[sibelian]

107. Nakedness as well, I think?

[Hydra]

117. Yup, and keeping him on suicide watch when he wasn't suicidal

Not quite as bad as Jose Padilla, but it was obvious what they were trying to do to him.

[midnight]

116. Soldiers without due process all the while using them as a shield of spreading freedom. Nothing

more outrages!

[Hydra]

118. Ya, I love how they say we need to "Support our troops"

By supporting their bad policies. They treat vets like crap, so I generally ignore them except to say "Bring our troops home, dammit!!"

[midnight]

119. It really is the only thing to say-bring them home...

[Democracyinkind]

152. If they let him sleep at all, that is.

He probably got an average of 3-4 non consequitive hours of sleep during the first months.

Many DUer's think that's cool and dandy, judging from this thread. They're simply too small minded to imagine the effects that this can have. There's a reason these practices are almost universally forbidden.

But who am I talking to? I'm preaching to the choir, I know...

As if anyone of these cowards in this thread making flippant jokes about Bradley's treatment would stand more than 1 day of such.

Disguting and disappointing, aka the new normal for D's / Duers. It makes one almost desire a return of the shrub.

[sibelian]

111. Well he isn't wrong.

So why should he be sorry?

[sabrina 1]

50. Who was president when Manning was being tortured?

Airc, in the end, the torture stopped after State Dept official Crowley stated publicly that the way Manning was being treated was 'stupid'. He resigned after making that statement. But his statement had an effect, thankfully and Manning was moved from the prison where he had been tortured to another prison.

Torturing Whistle Blowers negates any agreement regarding extradition with allies in the EU or any member of the UN. The International standards are clear, no nation is obliged to extradite anyone to a country where that person is likely to be subjected to torture. THAT is what Crowley, an intelligent man, was referring to.

[Coccydynia]

55. And here we see the failure of the Democratic Party.

Vote for us. We'll only cut off three fingers. The other party, they'll cut off five.

[JimDandy]

12. I imagine that was the main reason. n/t

[okaawhatever]

13. That's funny. Your always coming up with the craziest consiracy theories. What

torture did Manning endure? Due process? Well, we'll see. Manning can appeal to scotus and if your claims are true they will be revealed then. Also, please stop using the word "whistleblower" when you mean "criminal". There are true whistleblowers, as defined by law, these two don't come close.

[MannyGoldstein]

17. Bradley Manning's treatment was cruel and inhuman, UN torture chief rules

Bradley Manning's treatment was cruel and inhuman, UN torture chief rules

[East Coast Pirate]

44. Stick in the mud.

Torture is fun.

[struggle4progress]

54. Ed Pilkington evidently suffers from a reading comprehension problem. The UN

Special Rapporteur corresponded with the US government regarding Mr Manning but chose not to interview him and issued a report that consists largely of philosophical statements, rather than actual factual findings

[okaawhatever]

151. Thanks for that. I did remember reading something about it, and I wasn't sure if it

was from the UN, but the words "cruel and inhuman" were used to describe his being left without clothing at night when he was on suicide watch. While there may be some argument on the claim for solitary, I though that was a bit much. It was the same process for all prisoners, so it's not like they were punishing him uniquely.
Shoot if they think that's cruel and unusual they should see some of our recent scotus rulings.

[struggle4progress]

160. The 2011 report is titled

Report of the Special Rapporteur on torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment

The Addendum A/HRC/19/61/Add.4 consists of 81 pages detailing the Special Rapporteur's correspondence with governments. Under the heading United States of America, there are two paragraphs concerning Mr Manning. Paragraph (a), titled

UA 30/12/2010
Case No.USA 20/2010
State reply:27/01/2011
19/05/2011 Allegations of prolonged solitary confinement of a soldier charged with the unauthorized disclosure of classified information

indicates that the Special Rapporteur was investigating a complaint that

... Mr. Manning was held in solitary confinement for twenty-three hours a day following his arrest in May 2010 in Iraq,and continuing through his transfer to the brig at Marine Corps Base Quantico. His solitary confinement -- lasting about eleven months -- was terminated upon his transfer from Quantico to .. Fort Leavenworth on 20 April 2011 ...

which he investigated because

... solitary confinement can amount to a breach of .. the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and .. of the Convention against Torture ...

For the investigation

... the Special Rapporteur requested an opportunity to interview him ... The US Government authorized the visit but .. could not ensure that the conversation would not be monitored. Since a non-private conversation with an inmate would violate the terms of reference applied universally in fact-finding by Special Procedures, the Special Rapporteur had to decline the invitation ...

The Special Rapporteur then reiterates

... imposing seriously punitive conditions of detention on someone .. not .. found guilty of any crime is a violation of .. physical and psychological integrity as well as .. presumption of innocence. The Special Rapporteur again renews his request for a private and unmonitored meeting with Mr. Manning to assess his conditions of detention ...

Paragraph (b) notes his further request for an unmonitored meeting with the prisoner produced no official response

Personally, I believe the US government should have granted the Special Rapporteur's request for an unmonitored meeting, but my concern (regarding the failure to do so) is ameliorated somewhat the fact that Mr Manning has access to an attorney who can meet with him unmonitored and who would be in a position to raise any maltreatment issues. The most that can be said to date in this regard, however, is that 112 days have been removed from whatever sentence Manning ultimately receives, on the grounds that

... Manning's confinement was "more rigorous than necessary" ...<and> ... "became excessive in relation to legitimate government interests" ...
Judge reduces Bradley Manning's possible sentence
AP/ January 8, 2013, 4:38 PM

which falls rather short of the claim Manning has been tortured

[RVN VET]

166. So technically it was not torture

yet he was tortured -- held in solitary, humiliated, left wondering whether his life was in jeopardy, not offered the possibility of a trial of any sort and, then, provided one after he'd already been, essentially, pre-punished for what he was alleged to have done (even though the allegations themselves were never really made clear).

Yep, I would have run if I were Snowden. Even more than Manning's incarceration and ugly treatment, though, i would have been concerned about renditioning and that old South American standby that the School of the americas provided graduate school training in: being "desaparecido".

Still a lot of mystery about Snowden's motivations, how he got his job, what he "stole", etc., etc. But I don't doubt for an instant his justification for getting out of Dodge and staying out.

[struggle4progress]

167. No, he wasn't held in solitary; and it's been clear since charges were filed in early July 2010 that

he would be tried

[MannyGoldstein]

169. In early 2011, our President declared Manning to be guilty

Not a very suspenseful trial now...

[struggle4progress]

170. Manning has pleaded guilty without any concession from the prosecution

[Democracyinkind]

148. You should be disgusted by your post.

Manning was, for 9 months, subjected to methods that almost the whole world - and the US before Bushie was selected - deemed to be torture.

This is in the public record, everyone can google it for himself.

If you're willing to ridicule what Manning went through... Would you offer yourself for 9 months for a little experiment?

[michigandem58]

14. I wonder if people really believe he was tortured

Oh wait looks like they do.

[MannyGoldstein]

18. The UN says...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023086646#post17

[Democracyinkind]

149. Feel free to volunteer for 9 months of what Manning endured.

And then let's see if you're still that smarmy at the end of the first week.

[michigandem58]

154. I'm sorry

but I'm not a criminal. No desire to go through what Manning did, but that doesn't make it torture. Try not breaking the law.

[Democracyinkind]

155. The UN, and the rest of the world, disagrees.

As did the US before Bush was selected.

[lamp_shade]

15. Manning was tortured? Seriously?

[MannyGoldstein]

19. Sadly.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023086646#post17

[tridim]

21. Apparently it's common knowledge in Cuckoo-Ville.

[MannyGoldstein]

24. And at the UN.

Who you don't respect, I take it.

[tridim]

27. I respect the UN, but not that particular opinion. nt

[MannyGoldstein]

32. And on what basis do you reject that opinion?

Thanks in advance.

[Maedhros]

136. It makes Obama look bad

ergo, it must be false.

[burnodo]

64. so you pick and choose

like a Bible-thumper

[tridim]

73. No, I'm not lockstep with the UN, or anything in life.

DERP.

[morningfog]

126. Even the Obama Administration?

[NorthCarolina]

162. LOL

OK, you got them on that one.

[LondonReign2]

112. Just to make sure I understand your position

23 hour a day naked solitary confinement for a year is not torture, does that sum up your position correctly?

[Democracyinkind]

153. Apparently.

Sleep deprivation is also cool nowadays, it seems.

I can't believe this thread. I really can't.

[LondonReign2]

168. tridim has left the thread

Perhaps when one realizes they are defending torture simply because the Obama Administration does it one has second thoughts. Or at least we can hope

[sibelian]

109. What?

People are asserting that Manning wasn't tortured, now?

This Snowden thing's really got people rattled...

:wft:

[tridim]

113. WFT indeed.

[sibelian]

121. :)

It's not difficult. Google is your friend.

[rhett o rick]

124. Your responses are deteriorating into the childish range. nm

[nashville_brook]

31. ignorance of the facts doesn't make the facts less true

[rhett o rick]

125. How can you say that to those that have worked so hard to craft their denial bubble. nm

[backscatter712]

114. Were you living in a cave? n/t

[rhett o rick]

123. No of course not. Now go back inside and close the door. nm

[krawhitham]

147. That has been the DU meme for a while know

It's complete bull shit, but so are a lot of DU memes lately

[mhatrw]

20. Ya think?

[MotherPetrie]

26. It had to have.

[Thinkingabout]

28. It did not encourage Snowden not to spy. It is becoming oblivious Snowden is not

Following his conscience since he is revealing more all the time. It is getting into the traitor bracket now. He is a scumbag.

[nashville_brook]

30. spying is giving/selling information to an enemy -- guess that makes you an enemy of the state

CONGRATULATIONS!

[Thinkingabout]

33. Check the definition of spying again, it is exactly what scumbag Snowden did.

[bvar22]

35. "Scumbag".

I notices that popping up today on DU from the predictable places.
Was that in the latest government recommended talking points distribution?

[Thinkingabout]

39. Nope, it is a description of Snowden with a better choice of words.

[Dragonfli]

40. I think they think it makes them sound cop like

LEOs where I live use that term as an endearing nickname for we the people, unless talking to a suit.

Authoritarians love sounding and feeling like "tough cops". Then again some of them may actually be among the brave blue few not afraid to administer street justice by group beating a handcuffed person fetal on the ground or using TG or electricity for some needed on the scene torture.

[tblue]

49. Authoritarians

have taken over the Democratic Party. It's clearer every day. It used to be just some of the pols--the Blue Dogs/Third Way Dems. Now it's the everyday voter putting the state before the people and the Constitution. How is that any different from the Republicans?

[frylock]

57. it's bound to happen, what with all those rats jumping from the republican garbage scow.

[sabrina 1]

56. Well, that's all very nice and everything, but do you have something more than your own opinion on

that?

Btw, Cheney and Fleischer and King share your view, not sure that is proof of anything, but they too have failed to provide anything but their over-wrought, expected, emotional diatribes in response to their spying programs being exposed.

[backscatter712]

115. The American people is the enemy of the state the government fears most. n/t

[Dragonfli]

37. OT, but are you by any chance a LEO?

I only ask because that is a cop phrase used to describe non-LEO's

They like to call people under their charge "scumbags" I assume to dehumanize them prior to beating the crap out of them for walking while poor, or giving a cop a "disrespectful" look.

[OnyxCollie]

145. It's the "dehumanizing stares"

that cause LEO's to beat up teenagers with puppies.

[Warren Stupidity]

63. "It is becoming oblivious" best subconscious error today.

[DeSwiss]

41. K&R

''And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed—if all records told the same tale—then the lie passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.''
~George Orwell, 1984

[tblue]

45. So scary

What have we become?

[DeSwiss]

62. The Terrorists. :-| n/t

[Hydra]

80. Orwell nailed it

And we're seeing a mass revision of history- where the Bush Admin was NOT wrong to start wars, spy and torture...because it's all legal now.

Just imagine what the Bushes will do when they come back in 2016 with that kind of power and public support

[DeSwiss]

94. There really is no public support.

- Just the appearance of it.

[Omaha Steve]

42. Bradley Manning is military

Snowden is civilian. Makes it a little different.

[Demeter]

60. Not that different

[totodeinhere]

69. Torture is torture whether you are in the military or a civilian. n/t

[Omaha Steve]

75. Torture in the civilian world is hard to get by with

The military can do what it wants, no questions asked.

[totodeinhere]

99. Not true. The military has to go by the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

They cannot do anything they want.

[DeSwiss]

95. One HERO exposed the heinousness that we're capable of......

...and the other HERO exposed the vast extent to which we have lost our freedom from being surveilled by our own government with our own money paying for it, as if we were the enemy. Which I suppose we are since to psychopaths, everyone looks like the enemy.

- Either way, if we continue to focus on these HEROES and not what they've exposed, we deserve anything that happens after that.



In answer to the issue of the press and others attacking Edward Snowden instead of the NSA: ''It's like blaming the guy who turned the light on while ignoring the roaches he exposed.'' Tierra_y_Libertad

[tblue]

43. Who would stay?

No due process. Unless you are a wealthy campaign donor, then you can do anything you want.

AG Eric Holder:

"Due process” and “judicial process” are not one and the same, particularly when it comes to national security. The Constitution guarantees due process, not judicial process.

http://m.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/03/holder-due-process-doesnt-necessarily-mean-courtroom/49509/

[blkmusclmachine]

47. Change you can beLIEve in

[DevonRex]

48. Hahahaha! Couldn't be all the TSSI stuff he stole to give to Russia, China, etc.

Keep on apologizing for a fucking traitor.

[JI7]

52. also why go to CHina if you have a problem with torture ?

[DevonRex]

66. Or Russia. Sheee-it. Ole Vladimir knows a thing or two about how to torture personally.

Or how to kill silently with his bare hands in about 2 seconds. I mean, good god.

[MannyGoldstein]

53. Some people say Snowden should have stuck around and faced the music

When the "music" is torture, and lack of due process, that's a particularly unlikely thing to happen.

[DevonRex]

79. AFAIC there's no chance in hell a spy will "stay and face the music." Neither

will a traitor. He never was a whistleblower in any sense of the word. People here were played like a fucking fiddle by the traitor and his slick PR guy who masquerades as a journalist and gives lawyers a bad name.

[MannyGoldstein]

83. How do you define a whistleblower? nm

[DevonRex]

96. These will help you.

5 U.S.C. § 2302
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/5/2302
http://www.iecjournal.org/iec/2011/03/whistleblowers-in-intelligence-community.html
"Whistleblowers in Intelligence Community" You can also find a PDF of the whole article to download. It's quite good.

[treestar]

84. He would not be tortured. He would have due process

He's more likely to be tortured by Russia, China, Ecuador.

[MannyGoldstein]

85. Like Manning? nt

[treestar]

91. 1, Manning in in the military and subject to that system

2. He was not tortured. He was on suicide watch and you made it "torture" because you love to exaggerate.

[MannyGoldstein]

92. The UN said it was torture

I take it that you disagree with the UN?

What he experienced was not typical military process, by any means.

[treestar]

97. I suppose so.

Is the UN now some sort of undebatable authority? I thought lockstep was out of the question.

[struggle4progress]

146. No, the UN never said Manning was tortured

[totodeinhere]

100. If you believe that you are extremely naive. n/t

Last edited Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:03 PM - Edit history (1)

[Pterodactyl]

51. Whoa, whoa, whoa! You actually think Barack Obama would be OK with TORTURE?

[L0oniX]

143. Don't be silly. Obama does not control the military.

[Pterodactyl]

171. Huh? I thought he was commander in chief. When did he lose control?

[L0oniX]

172. LOL ...well maybe he just doesn't control the torture squad and Guantanamo.

[Pterodactyl]

173. He was certainly in control when we killed Osama Bin Laden. But then not in control of Gitmo.

Last edited Thu Jun 27, 2013, 09:26 AM - Edit history (1)

It's so hard to keep track of this conditional commander in chief thing!

So, who stole his control away? And when?

[dflprincess]

58. Good point

and probably correct.

[truebluegreen]

59. It would have encouraged me to leave...

at this point I think any reasonable person would consider it under the circumstances.

[MannyGoldstein]

72. I was just mentioning it to my wife tonight

Looking at the US objectively right now... Not so good. I'd like to stick around and be part of the solution, but I'm not sure there's a critical mass right now of people with open eyes and open hearts to get something going.

[truebluegreen]

74. As luck would have it--

good or bad is very debatable at this point--I was forcibly retired after the crash (construction biz went away). Very luckily had some resources. Looked around and realized I could sit on the pile, watch it get smaller and hope that it out-lasted the crisis, or make a move.
A BIG move: because of health issues/pre-existing conditions/the usual BS I couldn't even relocate to another state.

So we left the country. I don't know, now, if we will come back.

[MannyGoldstein]

76. May I ask where you went?

OK if you don't want to share.

[truebluegreen]

82. No problem.

With my ailing 90-yr-old mother in tow, we only went as far as Mexico. She passed last year, and we are now--oddly enough--moving on to Ecuador (beautiful place, excellent climate, very inexpensive, good and growing economy...).

Sounds like we will be having company, too.

[MannyGoldstein]

86. Sounds like a great adventure!

I'm envious!

[truebluegreen]

93. It has been. Thanks.

[felix_numinous]

150. And this is what happens in countries

that abuse human rights -- there is a brain drain-- all the educated and skilled people leave.

As long as the US represented a safe haven against abuses, we were an ideal destination. If these policies continue this country will suffer yet another blow to our infrastructure.

[truebluegreen]

156. I agree.

Fewer bright students will come, more educated and skilled people will leave.

[Demeter]

61. Manning's torture and NSA spying and Gitmo and all have made me seriously consider leaving, too

and I haven't done much to incur the wrath of Obama & Co.

[Warren Stupidity]

65. Greenwald reported that Snowden considered both Manning and Assange, what they did and didn't do

and what happened to both of them. So yes, that is why he made sure he was not in the immediate control of us authorities or compliant regimes. He also made sure that he did do an un-vetted document dump as wikileaks did so that the charge of harming military personnel, while it would of course still be made, would be more clearly nonsense.

[MannyGoldstein]

68. If true, then the White House's work to terrorize whistleblowers has backfired

Last edited Tue Jun 25, 2013, 08:58 AM - Edit history (1)

Or maybe it's eleventy-dimensional chess of some sort. One never knows.

[JDPriestly]

67. Probably made them more determined too.

It is counterproductive. You don't encourage loyalty that way.

You encourage loyalty by prosecuting people who lie to start a war.

You encourage loyalty by standing on a moral high ground and making the people who work for or with you proud to be working for and with you.

Obama does this well. He treats people with respect. But when you ask people to do things that offend their consciences, then you can expect disloyalty. An occasional transgression won't get a huge reaction, but as things add up, it will be precisely the people who are the most honest and hardworking and whom you need the most who will balk, become silently angry and may become disloyal.

It doesn't always work the way I have described, but it is pretty much the rule.

In business, people sometimes go and start their own competing business because they simply think they can do things better, but that is not relevant to Snowden.

[MannyGoldstein]

70. True. As a manager, I've found that nothing obliterates morale worse than

giving some folks a pass for bad work, while holding others accountable. Rules must be set, and followed fairly.

[navarth]

71. Really an excellent, thought-provoking post, thanks. nt

[pnwmom]

78. What or who encouraged him to take all the documents about US spying on foreign countries?

[Hydra]

81. You would stay and end up tortured?

Or based on other comments, would you simply have not talked about what you saw if you were Snowden?

[pnwmom]

87. He could have left and only taken documents related to internal US surveillance,

which is what he claimed to be concerned about.

And left all the documents about US spying on other countries, which is destroying his credibility and proving to be a major distraction.

[Hydra]

88. A fairer answer than I've seen lately

We'll have to see what he has. I just read a thread that says the gov't now has no idea how many documents he stole...which means either they're lying for effect, or Booz-Allen workers have FAR too much access to our data.

[pnwmom]

89. I think pretty much everybody agrees, if about nothing else,

that privatization of our government intelligence work was an incredibly stupid idea.

[Hydra]

90. Highly profitable

But doesn't really deliver the desired result if we want to catch terrorists...which they don't seem to be too concerned about if Boston was any indication.

We'll have to see where Snowden goes with this, but just the fact that he popped out of Booz-Allen and was able to do all of this should be a HUGE wakeup call to people outside the system- it's broken, in a very bad way.

[Maedhros]

137. Snowden did not take documents regarding the U.S. spying on other countries

He took documents showing that the United States government was engaged in spying on commercial (i.e. non-governmental) enterprises located in foreign countries.

[pnwmom]

157. Not true. He also took documents related to spying on governments.

For example, while Obama was meeting with Putin, Snowden released documents related to US spying on the previous Prime Minister.

And in China, by the way, there is no bright dividing line between governmental and commercial activities.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/06/officials-how-edward-snowden-could-hurt-the-u-s/

Beyond technical systems, U.S. officials are deeply concerned that Snowden used his sensitive position to read about U.S. human assets, for example spies and informants overseas as well as safe houses and key spying centers.

They worry this recent quote from Snowden was not an exaggeration: ” I had access to the full rosters of everyone working at the NSA, the entire intelligence community, and undercover assets all over the world. The locations of every station, we have what their missions are, and so forth.”

[Maedhros]

159. You're referring to the UK spying on Medvedev. [n/t]

[JVS]

98. I'm sure it did.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

101. Tsk, Tsk, Manny. It's called "Enhanced Interrogation".

Like "Private Leisure Time" for solitary, and "Benevolent Brunches" for force feeding.

[MannyGoldstein]

104. My bad, sorry.

I'm always trying to sensationalize these things.

[backscatter712]

110. "Conjugal visits" for prison rape, "Drug holidays" for withholding of medication from prisoners. n/t

[Maedhros]

139. And "Liberal" for politicians that support indefinite detention, signature strikes,

due-process-free executions and chained CPI.

[ZombieHorde]

102. I don't know what he was thinking,

but you make a really good point, in my opinion.

[KittyWampus]

103. No, I think his INTENT TO PASS SECRET NSA DOCUMENTS TO MULTIPLE FOREIGN COUNTRIES DID.

[morningfog]

128. I thought the info wasn't really secret?

I can;t believe how easy it was for a high school drop out to infiltrate the NSA and successfully access secret documents in such a short time. He exposed a soft underbelly to the NSA.

[sibelian]

106. Seems highly probable.

It's difficult to see how a chilling effect on those who wish to expose abuse could not be brought about by such treatment of prisoners, whether you think they're justified on their actions or not.

[backscatter712]

108. That's what happens when whistleblowers don't have internal channels to go through.

Manning didn't. Drake and the other previous NSA whistleblowers tried the channels and got nowhere. Snowden didn't feel like he had channels to go through.

And when Snowden saw what happened to Manning, what did you think he was going to do? He's not stupid.

If the penalty for disclosing secrets is a year in jail, and it's normal jail, and that jail's run professionally, and not a gladiator school, or an Abu Ghraib, then maybe more people like Snowden would be happy to suck it up and serve a sentence.

But when Manning gets supermaxed, Jose Padilla gets tortured, countless other prisoners are routinely subjected to beatings, rape, random shankings, guards instigating prisoners to assault each other, deprivation of medical care, etc. etc. etc., one concludes that America's prison system has turned into medieval dungeons, and you'd have to be crazy to allow yourself to be subjected to that.

[L0oniX]

144. and those internal channels hand out punitive punishment.

[pnwmom]

158. Snowden DID. And if he didn't want to go through agency channels,

he could have gone directly to his representatives in Congress.

[Octafish]

120. He probably never heard of Jose Padilla.

Seems like most of America hasn't -- at least the swath I've queried over the past decade.

[Pelican]

131. It implies he was tortured in the first place...

[Enrique]

135. if he had gone to jail like Manning

Bob Schieffer and all the rest would be hailing him as the next Rosa Parks and MLK Jr!

Or not!

[felix_numinous]

141. Torture is done to intimidate

everyone else into blindly following authoritarian rule. Any sane person would leave a country knowing they would not get a fair trial and be tortured. Other motives aside.

This country has changed profoundly, and many here can witness the related shift within the Democratic Party and on this board.

It saddens me, because I am not sure how to proceed. Backing torture and banning all whistleblowing protections is a quantum leap to the right.

[JDPriestly]

161. No matter what you think of Snowden, you have to admit he is an extremely

smart guy. I can believe that he was entrusted with a lot of access to the surveillance system. He must be one of the best systems administrators around. He is one of these people who can look at a complex chart and make sense of it in seconds. That is an unusual talent. But I have seen people who have it. Snowden aside from his revelations to the public is one brilliant individual.

He is really smart and I respect him just for that fact. It is a shame that his intelligence was employed to do surveillance on others. He could have been a brilliant biologist or astronomer or something really helpful.

[Orsino]

163. Next you'll expect me to believe...

...that Abu Ghraib inspired acts of violence against the United States.

[Babel_17]

164. The more you tighten your grip, the more leakers will slip through your fingers (nt)

[warrprayer]

165. friend told me

that if Snowden is smart he will stay in Russia.