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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums'19 Kids and Counting' Gets Stranger, Sadder
The fifth season of TLC's beguiling, baffling, and oftentimes be-rage-ifying (just go with it) Quiverfull family series 19 Kids and Counting premiered last night, and while it was mostly a typical Duggars episode, with eerily wholesome family activities and a dash of stomach-turning religiosity, there was a new grimness to the series that didn't sit right.
The bulk of the episode was, again, pretty normal. There was a cutesy segment of the family planting fruit trees on their property, which was part activity for the kids and part attempt to create a food source for twenty people. The clan traveled to some sort of corn maze/petting zoo, where the little ones scrambled around and the bigger ones had fun in their own slightly less enthusiastic way. This is, at least on film, a defiantly wholesome family; these kids aren't constantly moaning about shopping malls and video games, cellphones and parties. Maybe that stuff factors in off-air, but in TLC's carefully edited version of the Duggars' world, all children, ages 2 to 18, are happy to be gamboling about together in a cornfield. That's fine! It's a little weird, of course, but why would anyone watch TLC if they didn't want something a little weird? (Even the network's current best show, Four Weddings, is a little weird.)
And then of course there was the infusion of religion that probably earns the series a fair number of looky-loos (ahem). Michelle Duggar, the broodmare who gave birth to this baseball team, was invited to speak to a ladies group at a nearby church, and though what we saw of the speech was mostly a series of platitudes about family and children and all that, there was a single shot that said much more -- the camera panned over a handout that Michelle brought to the event, and the content was pretty unsettling. TLC maybe included this shot for people like us, who of course paused it and advanced the frames to read as much of it as we could, and, whooo boy, was it unpleasant. It was all about how to make your husband happy in a marriage, which is of paramount importance to patriarch-dominated Quiverfull families. There were things about how wives shouldn't refuse their husbands' sexual advances, about how self-reliance is what kills marriages, about not stepping out of bounds in terms of what your responsibilities are as a wife (do too much and you emasculate him, you see). It was all reeeeally gross stuff that you never really hear the Duggars talking about on the show, but is absolutely the unspoken (on camera, at least) foundation of their family. (As evidenced by the fact that older boys are encouraged to pursue education and careers while their sisters remain indentured babysitters.) So that's why the rage-junkies watch this horrorshow, to get that electric adrenalin rush of anger at what a strange and backwards belief system these seemingly cheery and wholesome creatures actually operate under.
So, yes, it was a typical Duggar outing last night, until the last segment, which involved wife Michelle and husband Jim Bob going to the doctor to hear the heartbeat of their upcoming 20th child. In the scene, the doctor couldn't find the heartbeat on the Doppler monitor, so there was a scary bit of tension, but then she found the baby on the sonogram and it was a happy moment of relief. Until, of course, one remembered that Michelle eventually lost the baby, a girl they named Jubilee Shalom. Yeesh. That seems awfully grim for this typically only glancingly serious show. Of course it's important to show the effects of giving birth to 19 children, to confront the frustrating and avoidable risks of practicing this kind of "procreate first, ask questions never" family management technique. So that makes it worthwhile. And I'm sure for the Duggars it's important to show the courage and conviction of their faith in the face of loss. But the knowing that it's going to happen, the bleak procedural inevitability of it, is akin to the death march of the recent Real Housewives of Beverly Hills season, in which the specter of a future suicide loomed over the proceedings. It seems like probably the worst way to handle this kind of thing.
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/entertainment/2012/02/19-kids-and-counting-gets-stranger-sadder/48733/
Too weird for me ...
Tansy_Gold
(17,858 posts)PavePusher
(15,374 posts)I can't imagine that getting 21 people, most of them juveniles, to all smile at the same time ever looks anything but "forced".
snooper2
(30,151 posts)hamsterjill
(15,220 posts)She's been less and less involved in the show.
Doremus
(7,261 posts)When they changed the first G to a J for their stupid all-J named kids thing they should have changed the 2nd "g" too for consistency. Just one more thing they saddled the poor girl with.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)strangest thing ever. I'll have to post pics one of these days- it's like a book written by near illiterates who had no idea what a credible book would look like. Seriously, it's a leatherette-bound, gilt-paged consumable textbook.
Oh, and here's a sample of the Gothard homeschooling program they use for the kids. It takes a minute to load because it's a PDF, but it's worth it for the sheer lunacy of it. http://ati.iblp.org/ati/about/curriculum/wisdombooklets/documents/wb4sample.pdf?show=true
snooper2
(30,151 posts)poor kids...
At least now the Internet is out there so one day they may be brave and question the stupidity forced upon them.
Demonaut
(8,915 posts)these books are inevitable
Doremus
(7,261 posts)at the very least one or two rebels in the bunch.
I can't WAIT to see JimBob's shellacked hair stand on end.
sinkingfeeling
(51,454 posts)episode of them rallying for Santorum. These people all live less than 15 miles from me!
CountAllVotes
(20,869 posts)You have my condolences!! ACK!!!!!!!
hamsterjill
(15,220 posts)Last edited Wed Feb 15, 2012, 04:34 PM - Edit history (1)
To anyone who has seen 9 or more children in real life under the age of 10 who are together for 20 minutes or more who are not, at least some of that time, cranky, sleepy, imperfect, and who most definitely fight with their siblings? Anyone who has seen this miracle, please raise your hand.
None of this, of course, is ever seen in the perfect Duggar world. So, I say again - this is NOT reality. This is mega-birthing for money!
LynneSin
(95,337 posts)to take care of squealing brats.
hamsterjill
(15,220 posts)And there's always the "off switch" on the camera when one of those kids gets out of line. Cut!!! All that is shown to the world must be sheer perfection, of course. Keeps ratings up AND falls in line with the Quiverful argument that if women will just submit themselves to their husbands, that their lives will be perfect!
As for me, I'm not buying it...
shanti
(21,675 posts)are followed by a passel of boys, then some more girls. J'Chelle will have to step up sooner or later....
asjr
(10,479 posts)uterous hurt.
shanti
(21,675 posts)a couple of years ago. the ignorance got to be too much for me. i do like to read the snark tho
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)Her Maid of Honor went first and spoke glowingly about what a wonderful man the husband was, how lucky her best friend was to be marrying this man, how much her new husband loved her, etc.
The Best Man spoke glowingly about what a wonderful man the husband was, how lucky the bride was to be marrying this man, etc. And then he started talking about her absolute need to submit herself to her husband in all ways. That he would make all the right decisions to guide her in living a good and happy life, etc. How she must put behind her past ways and embrace her husbands control.
He never spoke a single complementary word about the new wife.
Their friends insist that the hubby doesn't buy that shit, that he dotes on her and pretty much lets her call all the shots. I know their home was selected to accomodate her equestrian lifestyle. So it appears things are okay.
On the other hand ... I love Presbyterian women's approach to being covered neck-to-toe. Turns out that thigh-high boots and a medium length skirt does the job just as well as floor length skirts!
They appear to have found a loophole that seems to make a mockery of the whole concept.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,686 posts)Presbyterians are mainstream, moderate Protestants kind of like Methodists. I can't imagine a Presbyterian wedding anything like that.
Pentecostals, on the other hand...
I knew a girl in college who came from a Pentecostal family - and boy, did she cut loose once she was away from her family for a few months. She showed up in a long, frumpy dress but she ditched that look before long.
MountainLaurel
(10,271 posts)I was at a Virginia Presbyterian wedding where the reverend started out the service with "And god made marriage between a man and a woman" and then repeated the phrase. It went downhill from there, delving into all the crap about traditional roles. Which was crazy in this case because the bride was a 68-year-old woman who owned her own business for years and who left her last husband because he was beating the hell out of her.
This was the same wedding where accommodations for the groom's family members (coming in from all over the country) changed at the last minute because some of the bride's friends who were supposed to house the travelling family members weren't OK with having an interracial couple in their house (the groom's brother and his wife).
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)AsahinaKimi
(20,776 posts)I don't own a TV.
HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts)Don't EVEN tell me for a minute after the hell of the miscarriage and the medical problems of the youngest that this woman is 100% on board for another one. This is totally the decision of that dictator bastard asshole she's married to and she's expected to submit.
Jim Dumb needs to be forcefully sterilized before he kills his wife. He's going to kill his wife and he doesn't even care. This isn't even weird at this point. It's a tragic illustration of fundamentalpatient stupidity run amok.
TheMightyFavog
(13,770 posts)Welp, there goes my bonus pick for this year's dead pool. I figured that bottle of single malt scotch was going to a lock for me this year...
HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts)They named it Jubilee Shalom and morbidly even put the fetus' hand touching a finger on their website. You know, at least that isn't weird or anything.
No wonder they support Frothmaster.
After the doctor advised them it would likely end up a miscarriage...
Initech
(100,069 posts)Despite the fact that the last nearly killed her. This is someone who clearly doesn't give a shit about health - whether it's hers or her offspring and just wants more kids. Eventually you'd think a competent doctor would step in and say enough already but I doubt it.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)The only thing they can do is advise.
hamsterjill
(15,220 posts)"My life as a devoted fundamentalist Believer had become a living hell of physical, mental and spiritual abuse. For all our efforts to know God, to love Him, discern His will and live out His precepts for a Godly home according to the Holy Bible, our family was going crazy. We hated ourselves and we hated each other and we all wanted to die."
See story at this link:
http://www.politicususa.com/en/born-breed-quiverfull-walkaway
renate
(13,776 posts)I think Michelle Duggar seems like a very nice and sweet woman, but I wonder whether she ever has any doubts about her lifestyle that she can't express, for the reasons explained in the article (basically, a woman can't leave if she's got all those kids, no education, and no job history and doesn't know anybody outside the community that would shun her the moment she left her husband).
And good Lord, why can't her husband leave her alone? (I may be making assumptions about whose libido is in charge here, but any mother of that many young kids surely just wants to collapse into bed at the end of the day, even if her daughters are doing most of the housework and child care.) Doesn't he care at all about his wife's health? (Well, the answer to that one is obvious.) Even if they think it's God's will that they have as many kids as possible, can't he just kind of take it down a notch and tell God he's not in the mood tonight?
Boudica the Lyoness
(2,899 posts)She is soft spoken though and sounds sweet, but that is it.
She works her daughters like servants. When the show first came on the air it exposed more of how they really live. At that time they were not well off and lived in a small house. I think the house had only three bedrooms and there were 16 children at the time. The girls are the ones cooking all the meals, doing all the laundry and housework. One little girl was solely in charge of cleaning the parents bedroom! The babies were also cared for by the older daughters. The sons did a bit of yard work and every now and again cleaned out the garage. I couldn't figure out what Michelle Duggar did beside being a brood mare and teaching the children subjects like bankruptcy 101.
There was such outrage at the way the daughters were treated and the fact the toddlers were taught the same classes as the teens, that they hid the abuse and weirdness. Michelle even toned down her ridiculous giant mullet.
When Jim Bob ran for office, he carted his large family around as a tool to get elected.
The Duggars exploit the fact that they are breeding out of control and now they are raking in the dough. I think this family is disgusting.
Imagine if every adult female on earth had 20 children! What they are doing is not clever, it is responsible and selfish.
tabbycat31
(6,336 posts)They homeschool their children even through college. Now I don't want to open the homeschooling can of worms, but you would at least think that these kids should have the opportunity to go away to college and leave the nest if they want to.
The only Duggar that's left the nest is setting up the same lifestyle that he grew up with (did not kiss his wife until they were at the altar, and so far only 2 kids and counting, but they've been married a short period of time).
And of course this family endorsed Frothy for president.
Raine
(30,540 posts)his wife seems to be the one who wants to keep up with Ma & Pa Duggar and wants to work on having 20.
Javaman
(62,530 posts)or the first liberal or just anyone that doesn't toe the line?
I'm sure, under those pasted on smiles there lurks one with *gasp* an independant thought.
Myrina
(12,296 posts).... based on basic population/demographic math .... how're Jim Bob and Mrs. Uterus going to deal with THAT?
Javaman
(62,530 posts)sending them to "conversion speciallists" like bachmann's crazy ass hubby.
tabbycat31
(6,336 posts)But they might be mad at them because they endorsed Frothy instead of Batshit.
mainer
(12,022 posts)FourScore
(9,704 posts)onethatcares
(16,168 posts)finally escape and run into the natural world.
Or the day they hear some rock and roll pealing out of the sky.
Raine
(30,540 posts)(I usually always watch, for some reason they fascinate me) but could only make out it was something about being a "Godly woman".
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)I wouldn't want that many kids but it's her right to choose that lifestyle if she wants it. And those kids are much better off being Duggars than being brought up by neglectful, violent crack addicts or meth-heads.
hamsterjill
(15,220 posts)See my post #18 above. Another portion of that same article:
"Vyckie Garrison: Political domination is a core principle of the Quiverfull worldview. Quiverfulls proof-text, Psalm 127, promises that the man whose quiver is full of arrows will not be ashamed, but will speak with the enemies in the gate. We were taught that in Bible times, the city gate was the place where male leaders made decisions regarding local government.
The whole point of having a quiver full of babies is to
1) out-populate the enemy, that is, the godless, liberal, lesbian feminists, and..."
I will not support her "choice" when her goal is to out-populate the "enemy", which in her mind, I'm sure is ME as I am a liberal feminist.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)I've known a few quiverful women online, and yes, they do believe in outpopulating the opposition. "God's army" and all that.
She has the choice to have as many kids as she wants, even if it kills her. And I have the right to criticize every single bit of brainwashing that got her there.
renie408
(9,854 posts)the reproductive choice. There is a difference. And Michelle Duggar has made her reproductive choices the business of America by taking money for a 'reality' TV show.
And, yeah, I will judge the HELL out of a woman raising her family to believe that a woman's job is to submit to her man, stroke his ego, fuck him whenever he wants it and to produce as many little 'believers' as possible to take over the world so that the REST of us women will also turn into baby factory/male ego supporting/sex machines.
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)And to criticize them if we don't like that REASON.
Got it.
renie408
(9,854 posts)since ALL reproductive choices (and their reasons) are covered under the pro-choice political correctness addendum?
Got it.
Now, that just doesn't make any sense, does it? Being a reasonably intelligent adult with an ability to differentiate between the decision to have an abortion (for any reason) and deciding to have 20 kids in an effort to essentially take over the world and raising all the girls to be subservient to men, I actually feel pretty good about judging the latter. Either you lack that ability or you are uncomfortable with that judgment. Either way, I am ok with it . Cause I don't judge YOU for judging ME.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)See how easy it is?
renie408
(9,854 posts)Try addressing both mine and the OP's actual objections to this woman for a change instead of tweaking the argument so that you can maintain your righteous outrage.
I don't give two shits if she has fifty kids. But having as many kids as you can so that you can build an army for god is sick. Just think about how numbers 10-19 feel knowing that they were created not for THEMSELVES, but so that they can overcome the 'gays and lesbians' through sheer numbers. And raising girls to be reproductive servants to men is sicker. If you can know all that about those people and NOT make a judgment about them, well, I think that says a helluva sight more about you than my judgment says about me.
Now, stop trying to pretend that me thinking that this woman is a whack job has anything to do with choice and address the actual issue. Or not. I don't care. But could you at least argue the point that I am trying to make and not the point you have assigned to me?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)based upon their reproductive choices. Her choices would not be my choices, but she has every right to choose that lifestyle if she wants.
renie408
(9,854 posts)So I guess that would be "NO, I won't address your actual point. I would much rather pretend that this about the thing that I want it to be about so that I can look more noble than you and 'most DUers'. Nahney nahney boo boo."
So, that's cool. But I can't really have a conversation here when it has been said over and over that nobody is denying that she has the right to do whatever she wants with her body. It is what she is doing with the PRODUCE from her body that we have a problem with.
Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #61)
renie408 This message was self-deleted by its author.
tsuki
(11,994 posts)reality.
My grandmother had 11 children from 1909 to 1929. She looked after the farm and raised the children. When my grandfather died, she had no money, no income. She received a child's portion of the sale of the farm and its contents. She spent the next 8 years moving from child to child taking care of the children to have a place to live, medical care and food. She was fortunate; her children were able to take care of her. This was at a time when the number one reason for death among elderly women was malnutrition and exposure.
Her example is why my mother and 6 aunts were feminists before the term was invented. They taught all the girl cousins.
I don't care that TLC advocates this type of lifestyle, but I object that they do not insert the reality of this cutesy-tusey, sweetsey-weetsy, lovey-dovey lifestyle has on elderly women.
MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)especially if they are made public for that express purpose.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)There was an article here on DU about a woman who desperately wanted more kids (she already had a few) went through IVF and ended up with twins. She then underwent selective reduction because she felt like she couldn't 'handle' twins. I criticized her. I supported her right to her decision (and said so in that post), but I sure as heck don't have to agree with it! she made it public that she had a selective reduction and opened herself to that criticism. Don't want to explain your choices? don't go on TV (or newspaper) with them.
There's a difference between judging someone's decision and trying to make someone's decision illegal. Big difference.
renie408
(9,854 posts)Boudica the Lyoness
(2,899 posts)Imagine if every female in the world had 20 children.
What she is doing and what she wants others to do is going to be the end of us all......if they pull it off.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Mariana
(14,856 posts)It's OK to criticize anyone for anything. Freedom of speech, and all that - you certainly have the right to express your opinions.
Of course, those opinions are also subject to criticism. If anyone can't deal with that, they'd best shut the fuck up.
Amaril
(1,267 posts).....between criticizing (i.e., voicing an opinion about) the choice that a woman makes and demanding that her right to make that choice be taken away.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)I especially like the earlier post promoting forced sterilization of her husband. When I defended her RIGHT TO CHOOSE when she originally announced her 20th pregnancy, the same thing happened. Funny how that pro-choice bar seems to move when it's someone the neo-liberals disapprove of.
HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts)When can the judgement start? When can it become someone's business . . . when Michelle dies due to complications of childbirth?
These idiots are purposefully ignoring doctors who are strongly advising them to stop having more children, and they're doing it anyway (moreso Jim Dumb than Michelle) for WHAT?? To win some Great Sky Daddy Contest? Who speaks for the too-far-gone Michelle?
When it becomes an issue of the wife's health and 19 children possibly losing their mother when they didn't have to, then yes, I DO have a problem with it and I don't care.
hamsterjill
(15,220 posts)Ratings are what drive television shows, and therefore the monies earned from those shows. Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar have some competition. In fact, Kelly Bates has actually given birth MORE times than Michelle Duggar has - - because Duggar has two sets of twins.
It makes one wonder whether it's all about competing for ratings, etc.
See story on the Bates at this link:
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20568636,00.html
annabanana
(52,791 posts)What will have become the fruit of this twisted tree?
itsrobert
(14,157 posts)Time for her husband to trade her in for newer model who can continue on giving him kids.
YellowRubberDuckie
(19,736 posts)They grew up much the same way. Home schooled, Patriarchal, and fundy.
When the Duggars are in Oklahoma City, they go to the church they belong to, so they all are pretty cozy with the Duggar Family. And they are exactly the same innocent, sheltered, naive family that they are on TV.
It's really not so hard to believe in God when nothing has ever happened to you, your faith has never been tested and you've never had a painful thing happen to you in your life.
Duckie