Evo Morales: I was "being held hostage" in unplanned Vienna stop

[MannyGoldstein]

I'm reading on DU that this hostaging of a world leader never happened, or something to that effect. But The NY Times and the rest of the world seems to believe that it did.

Also, the rest of the world seems to believe that the plane was searched for Snowden.

Who to believe? Very puzzling.

As I wrote yesterday, the only saving grace is that Snowden is totally full of shit and knows nothing. Given the stunts that the US is pulling around the world to catch His Insignificance, I tremble to think what we'd do if he actually knew anything. Yikes.

[Cali_Democrat]

1. Held hostage?

This is nothing more than hyperbole.

Nobody held him hostage.

[MannyGoldstein]

2. Was Morales free to leave without the plane being searched? nm

[Cali_Democrat]

12. There was no hostage taking. n/t

[morningfog]

13. But, was he free, as a head of state, to leave?

[Cali_Democrat]

17. The Austrians did not hold the President of Bolivia hostage

Michael Hastings was not killed by a government plot to remotely take control of his car and deliberately crash it.

The CIA was not behind the Boston bombings.

The FBI did not want to allow the mass killing of occupy wall street protesters.

The moon is not made of cheese.

[morningfog]

19. Who is talking about any of that nonsense? Was the President of Bolivia free to leave his

plane?

Try to focus on the topic of this thread.

[Cali_Democrat]

25. Morales was free to leave and he did

This has gotta be one of the shortest hostage standoffs in the history of the world.

Oh ya.

[morningfog]

27. His presidential plane was held for 12 hours while it was searched.

He is a head of state. This was an egregious act.

[Cali_Democrat]

31. Held hostage?

Nah.

[morningfog]

33. Forced to land. Prevented to leave until a search was conducted.

Here's the definition to help your understanding:

hos·tage (hstj)
n.
1. A person held by one party in a conflict as security that specified terms will be met by the opposing party.
2. One that serves as security against an implied threat: superpowers held hostage to each other by their nuclear arsenals.
3. One that is manipulated by the demands of another

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hostage

[Cali_Democrat]

35. Thank you for confirming it does not meet the definition of hostage taking. n/t

[morningfog]

37. Wow. The double think cognitive dissonance is strong with you.

Care to explain how you read that definition and with the facts as they occurred and still fail to understand?

I would like to help, really.

[Cali_Democrat]

39. "double think cognitive dissonance"

Nice personal attack. Still doesn't change the fact he wasn't held hostage.

[morningfog]

43. Let's walk through it:

Morales and his plane was "held by one party" until "specified terms" were met. True.

President Morales who had no intention or desire to land in Austria, was force to. Once there he was not allowed to take off again until he consented to the search of his plane, 12 hours later. President Morales was "manipulated by the demands of another." True.

If you care to dispute or counter that please do. A denial to the existence of these words will not suffice as an argument or counter point.

[Cali_Democrat]

44. This was not a hostage taking in any way. Sorry. n/t

[morningfog]

49. I'll try it your way. He was held hostage. Sorry.

[Cali_Democrat]

51. Okay he was

you win.

[dgibby]

62. Your dissociation with reality is impressive.

How do you do that?

[LondonReign2]

115. Its not possible that it was kidnapping

Because: Obama!



It's OK, this is the same poster with an OP claiming it never happened

[Fuddnik]

86. It fits to the letter, the US definition of kidnapping.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

126. Would you buy "unlawfully detained"?

[markpkessinger]

68. From the Oxford Dictionary of U.S. English (online)

Definition of hostage
noun
a person seized or held as security for the fulfillment of a condition:
the kidnapper had instructed the hostage’s family to drop the ransom at noon

Morales was held (as in, his plane refused permission to leave), against his will, for a period of time in order to coerce his assent to a search of his plane which the Austrian authorities had no legal authority to demand. The condition for his being permitted to leave was his assent to a search to which he did not willingly consent. Now, you can play your little legalistic game of quibbling about the semantics all you want, but at a very minimum, refusing to allow a sovereign head of state to leave, against that head of state's will, constitutes major breach of diplomatic immunity, and was thus a major international incident.

And in any case, those were Morales' words (in translation, of course). Whether or not you deem his description of his experience as hyperbolic or not, that doesn't change the way he and his government (and the governments of several other South American leaders) see it.

[merrily]

106. How dare you confuse us with definitions from the world's most respected dictionary!

We're trying to post free form here.

[markpkessinger]

120. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

127. "We're trying to post free form here."

And some of us are in bathrobes.

[ananda]

55. Sounds like a hostage taking to me.

..

[1monster]

53. Then what word do you use to describe being detained until you agree to the terms

(in this case, allowing your plane to be searched) laid down by another who has no legal right to do so?

[malaise]

40. This was an egregious act

This was a violation of international law

[tsuki]

93. Yes, it was. nt

[dawg]

45. We never walked on the moon ...

Elvis ain't dead,
You ain't going crazy,
It's all in your head.

[nineteen50]

76. and the government was not spying on

Americans, Clapper just misunderstood the question is NSA spying on Americans..

[kenny blankenship]

164. He was apparently repeatedly pressed to allow a search of his plane, while not able to leave

that's the "ransom demand" ingredient that makes this event comparable to a "hostage taking."

According to Morales' recounting of the bizarre multiple parleys with the Spanish Ambassador, in order to ransom himself out of an apparently indefinite detention in Vienna, Morales was repeatedly urged to allow his plane to be boarded and searched. Instead of being allowed to leave according to a simple refueling schedule, Morales was detained in rounds of negotiations in which he and his plane were the hostage. His answers were conveyed by the Ambassador to nameless others, and met with new demands, fresh reasons, as the incident dragged in newscycle units on to the point where we might have soon seen banner headlines such as DAY TWO: BOLIVIAN HEAD OF STATE HELD CAPTIVE AT AUSTRIAN AIRPORT.

And as we know too well there are a couple dozen posters here who would have cheered such headlines, too. "He's on that plane I knew it! They've got that Snowden bastard at last - caught him with the Communist Presidente! They wouldn't be holding that jug eared little Indian if he didn't have something to hide! We can speed this up by cutting off their food and water. It's only a matter of time now.

[sabrina 1]

161. Editing as Cali Democrat is unable to respond.

[JDPriestly]

65. The Austrian newspaper Der Standard reported on Evo Morales' stay in the Vienna Schwechat airport

Last edited Wed Jul 3, 2013, 05:40 PM - Edit history (1)

live and with lots of photos. In one picture, Morales appeared to be looking at a cell phone or small computer-type device and smiling, but his foreign minister looked furious.

According to Der Standard, the Bolivian diplomatic mission including Morales complained that the life of the President, Morales, had been threatened by not allowing Morales to proceed as his trip was planned, and Morales was claiming diplomatic immunity and threatening to call in someone from The Hague.

OK. I read German. Most people don't. Der Standard is a pretty reliable news source.

The Austrian Minister of the Interior stated that her country awards asylum to people, but they have to identify themselves and undergo an interview as required by law. (Edited. I inaccurately typed that the German Minister made that statement. It was the Austrian Minister of the Interior. Sorry.)

Austria has granted asylum to many political refugees from all over the world.

The Interior Minister stated that she understands that many citizens are upset about the surveillance and that Germany (Merkel) and Austria have compiled a list of questions that they are submitting to Obama about the program and that they are awaiting a speedy response to it.

I posted my translation of the article on DU last night around midnight, Pacific Time.

Conduit and Bing have stolen my computer for the moment. (Joking maybe. I'm a computer Klutz and probably did something wrong.) And I am having trouble finding Der Standard. The article I found last night has, of course, been replaced. But things got pretty tense in Vienna last night judging from the pictures, the articles and the "live" coverage.

Everyone will have their own opinion. Was Morales free to go? Did he stay for some reason? Part of it was definitely diplomatic. And if Der Standard reported correctly (and I believe they did), then the Bolivian foreign minister was pretty upset. I would also say he was upset from the pictures of him that I saw in Der Standard. Someone put Morales' life in danger, the foreign minister of Bolivia was reported to have said.

Snowden had better be pretty important because it is not just Bolivia and South America that are upset about this.

I warned that Germany and Austria would not like this at all.

The Germans and Austrians bore the brunt of most of the Cold War. They were on the edge. They lived with the Iron Curtain to their East. The invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia killed many dreams as well as some decent people.

I was on a vacation in a campground in Munich the day the Russians entered Czechoslovakia. I will never forget it. We had just been traveling in then Yugoslavia visiting with family. At one point we had stayed in a campsite, lovely place filled with olive trees. We made friends with a vacationing family from Czechoslovakia who had a teenaged son with them. They were so happy about the Prague Spring -- so excited about the future. We drove up to Munich and there we got the news of the Soviet invasion. I was so sad, and when I think of it, I still am.

This surveillance thing is no joke. It is serious. We think we are not the Soviets, and of course we aren't. But the problem is that we are human. We feel fear. We over-react. The people in the NSA and our government are also human. They want to protect our nation. And because I know that their wish to protect is motivated by compassion and love most likely, I understand that. But the extent of the surveillance that they apparently have in place and the potential for abuse of the system in the future is too great. This system of surveillance is a greater threat in my view than anything it could prevent.

Freedom is a precious thing, as I learned that summer in the Munich campground.

The faces on the Czechs who were visiting Munich, some of them for the first time in the West, were utterly devastating. They were staying in tents, had their cars and all or some of their family with them and in one single day they had to decide whether to leave their whole life, the rest of their families, their jobs, their homes, their family heirlooms, their language, everything. In a matter of hours, they had to decide, the West and hopefully freedom or the East and the Soviet repression, poverty and misery.

I assure you that if the DUers who are rah-rahing for this surveillance program on DU had been with me at those campgrounds in the then Yugoslavia and in then in Munich, Germany, they would be opposing this unfettered surveillance and the exaggerated spying as I am.

Freedom is precious. Most of us Americans don't realize how precious it really is.

This is my first Fourth of July post.

Thank you to the brave Americans who fought our revolution and gave us our Constitution.

Let's don't let them down. And let's don't let down the many people in the world who look to us for an example of how to live in harmony as a truly free society. We have to do better. End the massive surveillance.

[MannyGoldstein]

67. Excellent post, JD.

So few Americans seem to have any sense of history, of the world.

I think it'd be a great Independence Day gift if you worked that into an OP...

[laundry_queen]

70. This needs to be an OP. Excellent post. You are right - most Americans don't realize. Even here. nt

[markpkessinger]

75. Brilliant post!

And laundry_queen is right: it needs to be an OP.

[tsuki]

98. I was living in Germany during the Prague Spring, and closely followed the Slav from Bratislav.

I also entered East Berlin through Checkpoint Charlie.

I agree. The surveillance is no joke, and the curtailment of civil liberties is no joke. The violations of international treaties and laws is no joke.

A poster on DU asked how the NSA surveillance affect you personally trying to down play the corrupting influence of the surveillance state. It may not affect you now, but it will in the future, and if not you, your children and grandchildren.

[Mojorabbit]

121. Great post! nt

[felix_numinous]

130. Thank you for sharing

this part of your life. You are right, this is no joke. Sadly, if it continues and grows, there will be a point where everyone will be uncomfortable with it.

[kardonb]

71. moales

If he had nothing to hide , why not let the plane be inspected ; it would make him look good if nothing suspicious is found '

[nineteen50]

77. Why does that sound fascist?

[Mojorabbit]

79. Because it is. nt

[markpkessinger]

83. You do realize that is the classic refrain of an authoritarian, don't you?

"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear."

"If you have nothing to hide, why should you mind if we turn your house upside down without a warrant?"

"If you have nothing to hide, why would it bother you if we listen to your private phone calls, or read your email/"

"If you have nothing to hide, why would it bother you to be strip-searched before getting on an airplane -- it's for your own good, after all."

I mean, Jesus effing Christ, under that logic, there's nothing that the government couldn't justify!

[think]

4. Let me know how that shoe fits if it happens to an American leader......

[morningfog]

6. Someone made him go to Austria, unplanned, and wait there, what 18 hours?

[hrmjustin]

7. I have to disagree. What was done is an outrage! It was a diplomatic flight and what they did was...

... wrong!

[merrily]

96. Word games?

[Warren Stupidity]

3. Our authoritarian apologists are out in force with their talking points and ROFLs.

[Cali_Democrat]

10. You mean PAID authoritarian apologists

[morningfog]

14. It is obvious which ones are paid and which aren't.

The unpaid are more readily knocked off script.

[A Simple Game]

100. The apparently paid ones also seem to have a ready supply of

links ready for posting. Sometimes the links are so prolific and varied it makes you wonder how many people are searching the web for them. Of course many are just circular links to their own posts.

[merrily]

102. Paid and unpaid.

[LondonReign2]

117. Its the unpaid ones that provide the comic relief

You can tell the amatuers...they post things like claiming well documented events didn't take place, that being detained against your will and being forced to accede to others demands does not constitute kidnapping, that sort of stuff.

[Cali_Democrat]

118. Kidnapping?

A photo from inside the plane during the stop-over shows Morales smiling next to his Austrian counterpart, President Heinz Fischer

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/07/03/evo-morales-controversial-flight-over-europe-minute-by-heavily-disputed-minute/

Sounds like a brutal and horrific kidnapping.

[dawg]

46. "talking points and ROFLs."

[ProSense]

5. The Austrians held him "hostage"?

Why would the Austrians do that?

[Cali_Democrat]

8. They wanted his jewelry

[MannyGoldstein]

9. Racist like me, perhaps?

Can't think of any other reason, can you?

[ProSense]

15. Is this snark?

It's pretty lame.

[dawg]

52. No, it's a snipe.

This is a snark:

[DevonRex]

156. Ever been on a snipe hunt?

[dawg]

157. I think I may have taken someone on a snipe hunt once.

[DevonRex]

160. Heehee!

[Pretzel_Warrior]

11. your odious posts are beyond subtle. you hate Barack Obama. We get it.

move along.

[NaturalHigh]

16. How did you get that from the OP?

As for the "move along," that's very bad form on a board intended for discussion. Your opinion isn't final here. Better get used to that.

[Hydra]

18. Obama 24/7

Funny how the line before was "He can't do anything, he's not a dictator!" to "Quit claiming Obama did all of this!!"

So which of those options didn't you believe at the time? That he isn't capable of doing these things, or he is?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

21. what?

[Hydra]

23. You heard me

We're fighting the NSA and the Military, and you're saying this is about the President.

You brought him into the discussion, so is he capable of and doing these things, or is he limited by his office?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

24. I was specifically addressing Manny Goldstein's constant bashing of the President

and from his posting history, I know when he says "what the US is doing" to go after Snowden implies "what Obama is doing".

[Hydra]

26. Oh, I see

You aren't actually addressing the issue, you popped in to complain at Manny for posting info that might hurt the President.

Awesome work there.

[leftstreet]

29. It's okay to bash Obama's policies

I've never seen Manny (or rarely anyone else either) bash the Prez personally

But you probably already know that

[dgibby]

34. So you are you that you KNOW what any poster means,

despite what it says in their post, Carnac or Kreskin?

[frylock]

85. manny goldstein bashes shit policy..

doesn't matter who the president is.

[MannyGoldstein]

110. That's all that Rove pays me to do

He says that directly attacking the President would give me away.

(Come to think of it... that @#$%ers late with my check.)

The other important thing he told me is to use a spelling checker. Took me five months of training to use that properly.

And now... I'm totally under cover, except for the very few really smart Democrats who know my real purpose.

[frylock]

116. well, you don't want to be TOO obvious!

[markpkessinger]

89. I think it is fair to say . . .

. . . that those policies and/or actions of the Obama administration of which Manny has been critical are policies/actions of which Manny would be equally critical regardless of who was in the Oval Office. This Obama persecution complex simply won't fly.

[nineteen50]

78. No he is limited to his

kill list.

[Hydra]

80. *bwah!*

Sad that it's true :p

[KittyWampus]

158. LOL! You're fighting the NSA by posting crap on DU? Care to point out all the informative posts

you all are offering on the NSA and its operations?

I posted one last night… sank like a stone.

How about all the "take action" threads?

ZERO that I can see.

What about all the threads covering the new court cases you are all starting up?

Sorry, but your post illustrates the problem on DU right now. Some stupid, hyperbolic crap from the OP'er gets lots of posts from a clique who doesn't bother posting anything really informative, enlightening or PROACTIVE>

[Hydra]

159. Thanks for necroing my post :p

And yes, I'm fighting the NSA, not by posting stuff here but by reading it and taking it to other people who don't have access or don't know where to look for the information.

I am quite happy to call out people who are trying to blur the issue here, either because of ignorance or complicity, but other than helping the people who are new here, I don't believe I'm doing anything other than setting the record straight.

[idwiyo]

42. "We"?

[merrily]

101. Beyond subtle writing? Sounds like a great compliment.

[sibelian]

132. Not really seeing that that's what the post you're responding to is saying.

Not really seeing why you think it might be.

[frylock]

148. you know who else said move along?

STORMTROOPERS!

[nashville_brook]

150. i don't think 'subtle' is the word you're looking for

[WillyT]

20. K & R !!!

[flamingdem]

22. Hostage smostage. You know the austrians had no idea why he landed there

and they didn't search the plane

Much overreaction going on

[GeorgeGist]

47. Do you really think the Austrians are that stupid?

[morningfog]

56. THey did search the plane.

"The jet then flew to Austria, where Morales had to wait for over half a day. He was allowed to continue his journey only after Austrian officials boarded the jet and affirmed – as Bolivia had insisted – that Snowden was not on board."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/bolivia-un-evo-morales-plane

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Next you will tell me none of this happened

Oif

[frylock]

87. these aren't the droids you're looking for

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. My bad...those R2 units I tell ya

[Matariki]

28. This is the country that put a foreign leader into a US prison

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Noriega#Incarceration

[Octafish]

32. A foreign leader who was a trusted ally until he said, 'No' to terror in Nicargua.

Good memory, Matariki!

[hootinholler]

129. And I thought it was about him moving all that CIA coke

I thought he was arrested to keep him quiet.

[struggle4progress]

136. +

[Octafish]

30. Snowden must have downloaded DC's Swiss bank account data.

Otherwise, an act of war that just alienated 95-percent of the planet doesn't really make sense.

[dgibby]

36. I shudder to think of the outrage

that would be expressed on DU if Air Force One had been subjected to this treatment instead of Evo Morales.

[Cali_Democrat]

50. You kidding?

DU would jump for joy.

That damn Obama got taken down a few pegs!!!!!

[morningfog]

57. I would be justifiably pissed if it happened.

[Cali_Democrat]

59. Sure you would be. n/t

[dgibby]

60. I would be, too,

but evidently there are some here who are not upset that it happened to President Morales. In fact, there are some here who are denying that it even happened at all. I am just as upset that it happened to ANY legitimate head of state of any soverign nation.

[Fuddnik]

94. Face it.

If assholes could fly, this place would look like O'Hare lately.

[dgibby]

58. No, I am NOT kidding,

and I don't ascribe to your assertion, but, ironically, I was thinking of you and your fellow travelers when I posted. I suspect you'd be the first, or among the first, to answer the call to arms.

My point is that all heads of soverign states deserve to be treated in accordance with international laws and protocols. I, for one, would be outraged if this had happened to the POTUS, regardless of which party is in power. I'm also outraged about what happened to President Morales, and unlike some who post here, realize this is an incident that has far reaching international implications, and not in a good way, either.

[Cali_Democrat]

61. I disagree with you

I think a majority of DUers would actually be ecstatic.

[morningfog]

66. You should make it a poll. I think you would be surprised.

The position that heads of state should not be detained is probably a consistent position. I would be shocked and outraged if another country refused Air Force One the right to depart without an inspection.

[laundry_queen]

84. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that poll.

Perhaps someone else should do it.

[Enrique]

48. ok Obama league, time find dirt on Evo Morales

maybe you'll find out he was a coca farmer or something!

[darkangel218]

54. lmao!!!!

[Jerry442]

63. Regardless of what DU'ers think, a whole lot of the world thinks some nasty crap went down.

Ask yourself what it would take to convince them that it didn't.

[warrprayer]

69. there seems to be a coordinated effort

to intimidate people who are against the intel surveillance magog

[Arctic Dave]

72. So! Does this mean bush can be detained now?

After all, acting Heads of State can be detained and searched so why can't we detain a known war criminal.

Tell me why this is not an option now?

[MannyGoldstein]

73. No. We must look toward the future.

A future of other heads of state being detained.

'Cos we got bigger weppins, and more of 'em.

[nineteen50]

74. I wonder what this board would be posting

if our president had been treated this way?

[emulatorloo]

82. The Board would be cheering. Led by Rove's paid Fake Progressives.

That being said Morales incident is not cool.

[nineteen50]

90. The

ability to tell the difference between the truth and a lie has been murdered by blind allegence

[Fuddnik]

97. Comedy Central here.

Now liberals are Rove's fake progressives? Last week we were Paul-bots, Hamsherites, Naderites!

I'l declare right now.

Heywood -Jablome 2016

[emulatorloo]

99. No only a handful are fake progressives.

Am pretty good at spotting them. They follow a certain pattern. The dearly departed BetterBelieveIt was a perfect example. Continual hatchet jobs on Dems, never posted a bad word about Republicans.

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. I could bore you over with Issa stories if you want

He's a car thief, let's start there.

But right now we have a bunch of promises broken. Oh and some OS us do think independently.

I know that sucks.

Now for pure entertainment, I had Hunter run, I tell ya RUN from me at a parade, not approved media I s'pose.

[emulatorloo]

122. nadin you and I go back a ways

so you know what I am saying has nothing to do with you.

Was in response to your statement would DU be upset over similar situation w Obama. had to run out so post was a bit abrupt.

So to clarify I believe their are a handful of GOPer operatives doing pot stirring and divide and conquer. 4? 5?

Long history of that - that's what gopers do. Don't know if you were around for the Great Reveal election night 2004. A few up them stepped up and took credit for their divide and conquer disruption. Was a real eye-opener.

Skinner usually tracks 'em down eventually.

AWESOME parade story!

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. I was

And at the pace we are going 2016 is a LOOONNNGGG way off.

As to hunter, I loaded my questions with nerf balls. He has refused to talk to any but approved media...

[emulatorloo]

124. 2014 2016 - yes in a way everything is in flux now. nerf balls, LOL

[nadinbrzezinski]

125. I admit, this year I threw a real hard ball at Pelosi

Early in this mess.

But a parade, how's the weather congressman?

[LondonReign2]

119. I'm curious

Were we "fake progressives" when we protested Bush doing this same shit?

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. Calling for war

Pure and simple.

[emulatorloo]

95. Yeah, YouBetterBelieveIt!

Can't agree with your assessment on this one. Front page would be full of celebratory threads.

[treestar]

81. Bullshit

More exaggeration of language.

[markpkessinger]

92. See post #68 above

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3161135

[MannyGoldstein]

103. Wachet auf!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023160893

[gcomeau]

105. Landing to be refueled is not "being held hostage"

That he is calling it that is nothing but an indication that he is not to be taken seriously and is primarily interested in putting on a dramatic production. That you are acting as if we should be taking that characterization of what happened seriously doesn't say great things about you either.


I'm not even going to bother yet again picking apart your intentionally obtuse characterization of the rest of the Snowden situation.

[MannyGoldstein]

107. Wachet auf!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023160893

[gcomeau]

109. It's sad that you think you just made some kind of point. -nt

[MannyGoldstein]

112. Well, we can agree that *something* is sad.

[Fuddnik]

108. Thank you. Because we're not interested in hearing it.

We prefer to deal with reality.

[gcomeau]

111. Observation contradicts your statement. -nt

[sibelian]

133. Yeah... you see....

WHY.... would he put on a dramatic production about landing to refuel?

What's in it for him?

[frylock]

135. it's weird that they had to land to refuel after being stuck in a holding pattern for so long..

you know, after being denied airspace and whatnot. just weird.

[sibelian]

147. You know, I'm sure there's a perfectly understandable explanation of some kind.

There's bound to be some entirely normal, common sense process that's really going on. Something entirely commonplace that gives the lie to all this hair-raising fuss that everyone's making. Something totally routine and by the numbers.

Silly old lefties eh? Lol! What a highly strung bunch of lamebrains! They've certainly got egg on their faces, haven't they? Not like the nice sensible, pragmatic, clear-sighted types that this site is really for. The PROPER democrats.

[Zorra]

128. I certainly don't believe the numerous propagandists that the 1% has obviously flooded the internet

with, in order to convince as many naive, gullible people as possible that "there is nothing to see here', and that they should stop thinking and questioning, and "move along now" to those blissful pastures in the deep, multi-dimensional matrices of the mystical Third Way, where wise, perfect, infallible leaders preside, and everyone has their very own magical pony.

[sibelian]

131. They have finally spun it all off the axle.

Did you see the thread CELEBRATING the grounding of Morales?

[MannyGoldstein]

134. God, no. Can you point me to it? nm

[sibelian]

137. It was not well received, at least.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3155297

[MannyGoldstein]

138. Wow.

Wow.

Wow.

[sibelian]

139. Isn't this all just too weird?

I think they feel they just have to keep going no matter what.

[MannyGoldstein]

140. I just posted the only thing I could think of:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023163706

[sibelian]

141. HA!

[MannyGoldstein]

142. It's just impossible to compete with that.

I need tariffs or something, this is unfair competition.

[backscatter712]

143. Wow. I missed that one, because that doucheclown was already on my ignore list.

DU's authoritarian shills showed their true colors.

[sibelian]

145. Also on mine, now.

My ignore list has mushroomed...

[sabrina 1]

163. Wow! I thought the story was that it never happened, but there is proof that it not only

happened but some on DU were cheering it on! Pretty scary that anyone would cheer on the violations involved in such a breach of Diplomatic immunity. Even the perpertrators know better than to admit to deliberately doing it and are currently trying to lie their way out of it.

[sibelian]

165. I think that particular thread was a bit of propaganda

but it just goes to show how some people here think.

[KoKo]

144. Recommend!

[Fuddnik]

146. Kick and Rec!

[nashville_brook]

149. k and r -- for exploding head factor of +10

[DirkGently]

151. But there's a Google Map of some airports ...

... that totally ... somehow ... makes it all better?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3164458

[nashville_brook]

152. PROOF! yargle bargle...doncha know.

[Octafish]

153. That's the USSR401 ring road 'round Moscow....

If you want to beat the cross-town traffic on the eay to the dacha, it's great. As far as a flight chart for refueling in Portugal, it's not so good.

[felix_numinous]

154. To laugh or dismiss someone

from another culture or race who has been insulted, without pausing to look in the mirror, is unfortunately the way too many Americans behave.

Underestimating the power and effectiveness of humility and the importance that politeness has in many languages and culture has been tragic for us, yet these days it remains in the collective shadow.

American culture has been progressively influenced by the militarization of entertainment (I wonder if our violent super militarized films entertain more than disturb people in small foreign countries...) that show endless scenarios where massive collateral damage is just part of the backdrop.

America in the 21st Century has to learn humility and how to play well with others-- and try to see ourselves through the eyes of all our relations. Because we all need each other now more than ever for support and to share ideas in how to face the years ahead.

Peace~Felix

[woo me with science]

155. Whom to believe. Whom to believe.

If only here were a MAP that would clear everything up!