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[Tesha]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Tesha) on Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:58 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[dkf]

1. Hmm not what I was expecting to read.

I guess I should feel more guilty buying clothes made in China.

[dkf]

8. Definitely food for thought.

Good catch.

[Pholus]

9. The related post is the Scheer article which was discussed elsewhere this morning...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101614531

[Zalatix]

84. Americans should feel guilty buying anything from China.

This is not surprising to me. I have been wondering when this shoe was going to drop.

[CAPHAVOC]

2. Leavenworth is better than Alcatraz??

[mucifer]

3. and we should believe them because???

[FredisDead]

10. Mike Daisey has been to the Foxconn factory

Mike Daisey on Real Time with Bill Maher
http://www.sockshare.com/file/99B9262D3A2E1B50

[Javaman]

18. Has he been to the garment factories?

I agree with Mike Daisey, by the way.

[Snake Alchemist]

6. Apples to wrenches? nt

[Pholus]

7. Man, the whiplash in the required party line is pretty bad...

In college: Fair Labor Association = PR Stunt of the garment sweatshops

with respect to Apple: Fair Labor Association = Arbiter of the truth and impartial referee

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/14/technology/critics-question-record-of-fair-labor-association-apples-monitor.html

[joshcryer]

55. Wow, thank you for that fascinating report, everyone should check this out.

[FreeState]

67. Kind of reminds me of how gays are treated

Constantly told that Obama is the most pro-gay president ever, he's done more for LGBT people than any other president! (well thats not hard seeing the bar was literally at zero with absolutely no federal law ever passed for gay rights before him)

[GeorgeGist]

11. way, way above average of the norm

this is what stupid people think smart people talk.

[grahamhgreen]

13. Great point "the physical conditions are way, way above average of the norm."

Who like that talks?

Not to mention - the norm for where? US or China?

[Pholus]

16. As long as the Chinese workers are all happy I guess. Again, I point to Scheer.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/apples_china_comes_home_to_haunt_us_20120216/

As far as the Forbes article:

1) If I trusted everything Forbes wrote, I'd believe the 1% are the "Job Creators who should not be taxed."

2) The Forbes article merely uses as a source your original reference, convieniently filing off the references to the Fair Labor Association. Oh wait, they left the acronym FLA in a quote at the end. I have raised my issues with FLA in several threads and have yet to see them disputed. FLA has some image problems of their own.

3) I dispute the assertion in the article that it is necessary to go through sweatshops to get from "feudal peasantry to the sunlit uplands of 21 st century." That's merely the best rationalization the author could find.

4) Put this all in context ala Scheer. China, in the end, is appealing to US companies because it is the perfect blend of authoritarianism and capitalism. Poverty to motivate a workforce and rules to keep them compliant and productive. The people working these factories make a good wage but live like dogs because they love and support their families and it's the best opportunity they have. All so we get 10% off at the Best Buy or the Apple store. If you think for a moment that the assault on our lives that comes both economically and politically right now is not part of a process to make us more like China rather than making China more like us, you have not been looking past the elegant, sleek screen and nifty interface of your latest foxconn produced doo-dad. Once the social safety net is removed, we'll be in the same situation as the Chinese workers and making the same choices for the same desperate reasons.

5) And as far worrying about Apple being treated unfairly compared to other companies, it's for a pretty good reason (coming from Mike Daisey): In the tech market, only Apple generates so much hype and sales that their factory lines are forced into crisis modes for a good part of each year. Every new i-gadget is the result of a factory line having to CRACK DOWN to meet the incredibly high demand. That makes them a bit more motivated to ask for exceptionally long shifts compared to other companies rather than expand a workforce and provide MORE opportunity for the Chinese workers.

[Incitatus]

22. Yet, some of them would still rather commit suicide than stay or go back.

The bar isn't set very high.

[belcffub]

35. if higher ed had the same suicide rate as foxconn

we'd be celebrating it as a success... last I heard US higher Ed's suicide rate is 50%-100% higher then foxconn's

heck foxconn's rate is around 20% that of China as a whole... so working at foxconn can actually save you from suicide... or so the numbers tell me...

[girl gone mad]

43. Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Show me the US college where 18 healthy young people killed themselves in one year, the faculty had to install suicide nets on campus and 150 students threatened to jump from the top of the highest building.

[girl gone mad]

69. 47 suicides over 36 years..

Far fewer than 2 per year, and this is in a population which includes physically and mentally disabled people, who would be excluded from work at Foxconn. What's more, MIT has been a majority male campus whereas Foxconn is predominately female. Men are up to 400% more likely to commit suicide.

Since the Foxconn suicides are directly linked to conditions inside the factory, a proper comparative analysis would involve looking at how many of the student suicides were the result of personal or social problems and how many were the direct result of pressures from the school. Take out the deaths triggered by mental instability, family problems, personal tragedy and health issues and then you've got your base number.

Like I said, you cannot simply throw up statistics and pretend Foxconn doesn't have a problem. When one delves into the actual details it becomes clear that Foxconn has a severe problem.

[girl gone mad]

72. There were 300,000 workers at the Foxconn factory in question.

Every suicide was directly linked to the conditions present inside of the factory.

In the words of one employee: “I know why all those people jumped. In here, nobody gives a damn about you. Too bad I’ve already got one foot on this boat. It’s hard to get off now.”

If every single one of those suicides at MIT were linked to shitty working and living conditions on campus, you might have a point. But you probably knew that.

[belcffub]

74. ding ding ding

we have a winner...

absolute numbers are a red herring... the make headlines... look at the percentages and the picture becomes clearer...

just looking at MIT if you equalized the equation you'd have around 400 students committing suicide if the population where brought to 860,000 (base off the 2 per year someone else posted - I do not know if this is valid)...

like I said if higher ed had the same RATE of suicide as foxconn we would be celebrating that as a success...

this is not an endorsement of foxconn, it's business practice or the wall paper in their lobby...

edit :: this was in response to post #70... no idea why it ended up here...

[belcffub]

75. is the 400% internationalized

what I mean is it that 400% everywhere... or just in the states... what is the percentage difference in China... not doubting you.. just asking

[Zalatix]

85. How about 'all of the above' has a problem.

Foxconn's suicides are due to horrible working conditions.

College suicides are due to overwhelming pressure.

Both situations present a severe problem, although they manifest in different ways.

[quakerboy]

53. Apparently

Suicide is the second leading cause of death in college students. The accepted rate seems to be 7.5 suicides per 100,000 students per year. There is actually the "jed foundation" founded to try to fight college suicide.

To pull a random example, apparently NYU several years ago installed "protective panels along the railings" of the library building to try and prevent students jumping to their deaths. And yet students continue to do so.

Or to pull another one, from 2010:
"Students returned from spring break Sunday to find some bridges around campus lined with 10-foot high chain-link fences –– the University’s most drastic response yet to a string of three gorge-related suicides in the past month. The University said it is working on plans for longer-term solutions to prevent suicides on campus bridges."

http://cornellsun.com/section/news/content/2010/03/29/university-installs-fences-campus-bridges


This is not to defend Foxcon. It is a fucked up company model. I am sure I own things made there, although the only apple product I did not buy myself. But I have other computers and various electronics, so I am sure I own their products. I have been trying to source purchases better recently. Its hard. Sometimes its impossible. There are no TV's and apparently no saws made in the US. Its often a challenge to even to find things made in Japan or Europe either.

[girl gone mad]

71. The preventative measures were to the library and local bridge..

no indication that what something happening inside of the library was the trigger for the suicides.

At Foxconn, employees were actually walking away from their work stations and jumping out of windows. These weren't already depressed young people leaping from a landmark bridge or the tallest building around when personal problems become overwhelming. These were people with no social lives, who did nothing but work for hours on end, deciding that death was the only escape from their miserable existence inside of the factory.

To make an honest comparison, our data set should only include suicides directly tied to the pressures of campus life. A comparable preventative measure would be bars on windows to stop students from getting up from their desk and jumping out because they would rather die than solve another partial differential equation. That linkage doesn't exist in the examples provided. These are just locations which appeal to already suicidal people, like the Golden Gate bridge.

[Pholus]

82. That's easy. Make students sign a no-suicide pact with financial penalties for their survivors.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1382396/Workers-Chinese-Apple-factories-forced-sign-pledges-commit-suicide.html

Hey you. You commit suicide, we will make sure your family will not benefit from your loss past "legal minimums."

What do you suppose the "legal minimum" in damages is under Chinese law? I tried to find out and could only find a single source.

http://www.theconglomerate.org/2008/02/tort-damages-fo.html

Okay. So their minor/unable to work dependents typically get a cost-of-living payment, locally adjusted (no wonder most of these people come from rural areas) until they turn 18. In addition your funeral expenses are paid. There is a payment of 20 years of the average net income for the location where you came from -- not where you died -- again biased against rural areas and much lower than the factory rate.

Two example payments of this sort were given in 2008 as being between $9700 and $23700 with the principal difference being locality of the deceased family (rural vs. urban). I would imagine that foxconn can afford it easily.

Searched around for a while, couldn't establish what the difference is between "typical" and "legal minimum" but I'm betting the deal probably gets substantially worse so that there is a substantial disincentive to take the easy way out. All for our shiny compu-gismos.

Anyway, it's just more of the same "over the barrel" cheap labor tactics, turned towards blunting a PR problem. No wonder the suicide rate is low -- foxconn takes hostages.

[joshcryer]

88. Fascinating. North Korea also has a similar law, if you kill yourself, your entire family suffers.

So people don't kill themselves in order to prevent their families actual, real, tangible suffering.

It appears the same thing happens here. That's just remarkable.

[Pholus]

24. I guess there is more than one way to look at your data point.

The last time I had such a discussion, it was with a conservative friend. Nice to see we're coming together as a country ideologically.

First off, as far as beating down the doors to get a job you're right. People are beating down doors looking for these jobs. It beats starvation or a life of ABJECT poverty. When you're "over a barrel" any job will do and if it pays better, the more you'll want it no matter how crappy you have to live or how much it shortens your lifespan. You just have to see your children's or your parent's or your spouse's face to understand that you'll do whatever it takes.

Look, For every article praising the foxconn employment lines:

http://micgadget.com/21420/thousands-line-up-for-foxconns-jobs-in-zhengzhou/

(The money quote is empathically PRICELESS BTW: "No matter how poor the working conditions are, we can still see lots of Chinese willing to work at the hell factory to assemble the tech gadgets we’re using today. God bless them.&quot

We find another couple showing how great the opportunities are in this country too:

http://www.azcentral.com/community/scottsdale/articles/2011/08/30/20110830talking-stick-resort-job-seekers-brave-long-lines.html

http://www.heraldonline.com/2011/10/02/3414218/long-lines-for-jobs.html

Or in Europe as well.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/feb/15/false-optimism-jobs?newsfeed=true

Punchline: In the UK -- approximately six job seekers for every job.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, I could spend a few hours on that one. Where am I going? The fundamental tenant of cheap-labor conservativism is that people over-a-barrel will work for cheap. So, to get cheap labor simply make life hell, remove alternatives and the desperate people will beat down your doors trying to get work. You even get to be an asshole towards them by treating them like crap and then offering them the choice to either take it or leave. If you don't get the humor in particular joke, you're simply not management material.

Again, I'm hardly being original here. See for example:

http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/?q=node/55

So pardon me for not seeing your point -- I see nothing in your line of reasoning that indicates that it's a good thing that thousands of people want these jobs. If anything, it's simply the institutional rationalization behind harsh conditions. So the FLA says the conditions are much better at foxconn than a garment factory? Has to be -- electronics shops must remain clean or that sh*t gets in the product and it could cause internal faults. That has ZIPPO to do with worries about working conditions. Same with sanitary conditions in dorms and cafeterias. Dirt encrusted workers will built dirt encrusted ipads. Duh. Chinese workers are currently cheaper than robots or they'd use robots. End of story, worker "opportunities" notwithstanding.

If this was all about opportunities for workers why not hire two workers instead of working one for sixteen hours straight? At $300 bucks a month per worker I cannot imagine that the per unit cost goes up THAT much but the stress would go down considerably. Oh yeah, then Apple stock might be at $495/share instead of $500/share.

But then again, my degree is not in Business management. Fortunately.

[grahamhgreen]

39. That's exactly why we need steep tariffs on the Chinese goods,

the American worker, whose house might cost $200,000, can not possibly compete with a worker whose house might cost $5,000.

[grahamhgreen]

12. Begs the question - how bad is the norm? We need to end the Costly Trade Agreements, increase tariff

and bring the jobs back home.

[grahamhgreen]

38. All the more reason to bring them back!

[Bluenorthwest]

14. Way, way? Is that some professional lingo? Is 'way, way' twice 'way' or 10x 'way'?

Apple's image issue is not going to go away simply comparing their methods to others. Apple's entire marketing attitude for all time is 'Apple is Unique and comparisons impossible.' They always claim to stand so apart from the rest that there is no need for them to market specifics, nor product features, they simply say 'We are the cool, righteous brand and the competition is old fashioned and self interested.' Their marketing says 'we are self aware, and so are our customers, and the competition is unaware of their flaws, and muddle around doing wrong without knowing it, poor old nerdy guy. Apple is the shiny Justin Long, innocent, moon faced and utterly without self interest.' Apple says it is your friend, and the others are just a business out to profit.
Much of the extra heat Apple gets was self generated with their marketing. When you sell things on the basis of 'we are just so superior we need not enumerate the ways' you are telling customers that your standards are much higher than others, that you are the new, you are the next, the other guys are the old, they past.
The image one uses to sell one's products does not come without a cost. So Nerd Guy and Justin Long should do an ad in which Long says 'Conditions way, way above average of the norm. With us, fewer suicides with each phone'.
Instead, they will just do another one with a song clip and a cool kid rolling his eyes at anyone who looks at the competition. Suicides? 'Poor PC, why are you so sad?'
They asked for the highest standards to apply to them. They actually claimed they create the standards. Way, way higher standards. Way, way cooler. Way, way dude.
What Corporation addresses such issues with lingo like 'way, way'? One that is still telling you they are hip and cool, so chill on the suicide thing, we get way, way fewer than the nerdy computer. Way, way less.

[Pholus]

17. It's a professional term: Way, way is "way to the way'th power" In other words EXPONENTIALLY. nt

[Pholus]

27. Let me repeat my previous post using smaller posts.

Foxconn conditions are better than a textile mill for precisely the reason that the electronics would suffer if they were worse.

Nothing more, nothing less.

[Pholus]

28. BTW, I'll see your request and ask for a copy of your CV as well.

With WHAT AUTHORITY do you hold your opinions?

[Pholus]

41. Ah yes, it is the fault of the "Murcan" so the onus is on him.

Let me continue to demean him, but I'll do it more substantially this time.

His main comparison in the interview was about the factory floor. That comparison is BULLLLLLLLSHIT and that is a quintessential "Murcan" term if you're keeping score. What is he comparing to? Nike Sweatshops? Textile mills? He mused about that a LOT and by how impressed he was at the difference on the sound and cleanliness on the floors.

WONDERFUL, but it is completely MEANINGLESS!

As I have explained excessively above, the product wouldn't work unless it was built in a clean room by people who themselves are not dirty. I am COMPLETELY UNIMPRESSED by that comparison of the factory floors OR the living space. The PRODUCT needs that environment, not the workers, so NO GENEROSITY on the part of the employer can be implied from the condition of the factory floor. How about working hours? 16 hours of repeately screwing in the same microscopic screw is inhumane. Did he study if the factory managers moved workers around? What about breaks? Do they exist? Those parts of the story will be told with all the data being collected by the investigators using their IPADS.

Oh yes, IPADS. Man, if I were an INDEPENDENT fact finder I'd use anything other than the product of the factory I was investigating. Unless of course it was part of the message I was trying to send to the people I was talking to. Then I'd carry one with a big fat Apple logo and a sticker of someone being kicked out the door taped to it as well.

Of course, the onus is on the "Murcan" by your last post. I'm trying to figure out who sits on the other side of the line. "Murcan" versus what exactly? Elitist snob comes to mind but I will withold a final conclusion.

I've got to call my name now too so we're square. Debate me on the points.

[joshcryer]

57. Your points are logical, and well reasoned, I do not expect a coherent response.

Just sayin'.

[Pholus]

61. Thanks. You know I tend not to be reasonable myself though, right? ;)

I truly *hope* Apple is taking a leadership role, but going through FLA is not a positive step.

I just got amazed at some of the responses and decided to see if I could find out what's behind it.

[joshcryer]

64. I'm glad you pointed out the required technical conditions, I probably would've overlooked that.

I may have made the connection later on, but it would've been after a dozen post back-and-forth.

It's a very very powerful and undebatable point.

It's like saying Textile Workers in China don't have as bad conditions as Chinese Coal Miners (who die at a 100-150x the average rate globally from accidents).

So thanks for saving me some effort here because I was prepared to start responding like crazy but you basically ended the discussion (and I may just refer to your post, if that's OK, if I feel like responding anymore).

(These Foxconn debates really get me worked up, if you didn't know.)

[Pholus]

87. I'm simply amazed how things like this can ever be justified. Or that people even try...

Oh well, I guess it's just old-age starting to show. Have a great night!

[jsmirman]

108. Your information and rational, cogent arguments

are much appreciated.

[Dreamer Tatum]

20. Bullshit: there's an app for that nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

21. Most workers get 3 beatings a day, ours only get 2. We're 33% nicer.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

36. Forgive if I implied the workers are in any way at fault for anything

However, I *think* you mean what should the workers do -- with their dire circumstances being what they are.

If the latter, I agree: their choices are few. Grueling subsistence farming? Factories with fewer demeaning/dangerous conditions? I don't know if work stoppages are an option when the government is effectively totalitarian. However, American factory workers, coal miners and railroad workers also suffered but affected work stoppages with glad results.

My post is simply to note I take umbrage with management's proffered excuse that their lesser-cruelty is somehow quasi-non-cruelty.

In my naive fantasy world consumer pressure will force positive changes that will filtrate throughout that country. Better working conditions, more human dignity, etc will be a benefit everyone.

It's ironic that while we want jobs to stop being out-sourced if we did that these folks 1) would be forced back into grueling subsistence farming or work at more desperate factories and 2) we would not have the monetary leverage to demand better conditions on their behalf.

[Zalatix]

86. No, but we would have the monetary leverage to save our own people.

Of course that's not politically correct. We need to starve and die so China's economic conditions can improve.

Eventually we'll be the ones doing grueling subsistence farming.

[marmar]

23. See, we don't beat our slaves.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this "report".

[TBF]

49. "the physical conditions are way, way above average of the norm"

Can you imagine what the norm looks like?

[Earth_First]

25. Sounds to me like "Hey, there *might* be a *surprise* inspection on Tuesday at 6:30 a.m." n/t

[Iggo]

33. So conditions aren't as bad as they are at places with worse conditions?

[raouldukelives]

37. I recall some left wing agitator saying one that

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

It's nice to read rationalizations though. Can't upset Wall St. Keep investing in suffering. It'll all be good. Someday.

[Romulox]

42. The board of the "Fair Labor Association" is full of corporate CEOs. What a joke!

http://www.fairlabor.org/fla/go.asp?u=/pub/mp&Page=BoardofDirector

[Romulox]

47. It's a significant amount, to be sure. I consider it dishonest not to disclose this fact

straight away. You represented this as something like a not-for-profit charity, but it's nothing of the sort.

[Romulox]

51. You quoted a trade group as if it were a NGO or similar. nt

[Romulox]

56. "The Fair Labor Association" (sic) is an INDUSTRY GROUP. NOT an NGO!

Orwellian stuff!

[girl gone mad]

44. This is a joke, right?

Surely no one is dumb enough to think DUers would fall for this badly written Apple apologia.

[Romulox]

48. IMHO, some of this raises questions about using DU for commercial promotion. nt

[Incitatus]

58. So anyone who uses an electronic device has no business being concerned about the working conditions

where they are made?

Does having a 401K, or even buying products and services from a company that has some responsibility for our economic condition preclude someone from supporting OWS?

[Pholus]

60. When you're an image-centered brand, "everybody else does it" does NOT cut it.

In fact, pressure on a major player like Apple is probably the only way positive change can be effected. Until the number one player honestly does a good job, none of the tier 2 manufacturers are going to even try.

[Pholus]

81. Bwahahahaha...CHECKMATE! I actually PASS your purity test as you stated it.

So if your metric is "purity" why don't you research the Tyan Tiger mainboard, a Silicon Graphics Visual PC Case/DVD, Intel Pentium 4 CPU, Corsair RAM (vintage 2004). Oh yes, a Matrox Millenium II graphics card and a Vortex Boomerang ethernet card. My mouse AND keyboard are salvaged from an SGI Indigo, my hard drives are 2004-2006 vintage Hitachi and my Monitor a Hitachi Superscan 814. I run linux. When you get back to me, we'll talk. Until then, I can tell you I don't give a rat's ass about the heritage of my parts other than they work and they will keep working as long as I don't let consumerism get in the way.

Actually, I just re-read your question.. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF MY COMPONENTS except half my RAM are other people's discards. I PAID NOTHING as they were replacing their computers with new shiny stuff.

CHECKMATE and neener neener to you!

So I sent $49 of my own money to China for PC hardware in the last decade. I've spent more money travelling there as a TOURIST!

Stuff your sanctimony where the Sun don't shine! And I'm not talking SunOS there dearie.

All of my stuff was thrown away because Apple marketing has been successful in persuading people to buy crap they don't need this perpetuating the poor working conditions and rampant pollution you won't discuss. For the record, all of my stuff works. All of it would have went to the landfill in working condition. As long as I don't waste my CPU power on needless flashy graphics like iOS provides I find more than enough computational power to even do my research and image processing on my 8 year old computer.

If we want to assign blame for sending money to China, you just pointed three fingers back at yourself as you unsuccessfully pointed one to me. Your precious company ACCELERATES the problem through their marketing saturation campaigns that cause needless waste as people buy for emotional, rather than practical reasons. Irresponsibility again!

Until then, I find it HILARIOUS that you're trying to smack me down on "taking the 5th" because frankly I've slammed you hard several times and you just kind of fold like origami and scurry back down your rat hole.

[Pholus]

90. Yes. I imagine you thought this comeback was a real winner. THEN YOU RAN ACROSS ME...

Basic cable. 30+ year old GE television. No mobile phone and still using my ancient land-line phone. DSL box owned by the phone company. My PC does anything electronic I need. I read paper books checked out from the local library or hike for fun as well as try to rehabilitate machinery and equipment because I grew up with Depression-era parents and learned wisdom behind "Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without." I hate seeing things discarded needlessly, especially when it is for merely a slightly more capable version at an extortionist prices.

So as far as your "we're all consumers" assumption goes my lifestyle has "...not a single luxury. Just like like Robinson Crusoe, as primative as can be." At least if fancy consumer electronics is your metric, as it appears to be.

I'm pretty sure I have mentioned I'm fairly anti-consumerist. WHY you would double down instead of ignore this point like all the other ones you've lost is simply amazing. Wow, who'd have thought that being an academic scientist who works most of the time was a moral advantage. But it is.... on YOUR issue at least.

Anyway, you hit your Kryptonite on this one. Your perfect little comeback IS A BIG OLD LOOOOOOOOOSER in my case. Eat it.

So go on and think of a new one. I benefit very little from exploitative "cheap labor" basically because I find it like disgusting.

Much as I find it's apologists disgusting as well.

The "Murcan" FTW!

[Romulox]

97. Your argument is one of moral equivalence between Apple Corporation

and individual consumers?

The hidden assumptions in your line of questioning deserve scrutiny: in particular, you seem to assert that a company with a market cap of $470 BILLION has the same responsibility to effect change that an individual making $30,000/year has.

This premise, implied in the whole "But where was your TOASTER made???" line of questions, is absurd on its face.

[Pholus]

98. "Would you would you in a box...would you would you with a fox."

Seriously, you're SOOOOO into thinking your moral equivalance card completely and magically excuses Apple that you're pushing this one to absurdist extremes. I just hope for a moment that you actually think about how strange it appears that you insistently push this single TALKING POINT, ignoring all else. In fact, I've continued this discussion long past it being actually interesting because I'm planning on using it as an example in the future.

So for the record, you win: I'm sure if you I gave you permission to loot through my life you'd manage to find something manufactured in China. I can see you now, triumphantly holding up some little shitbang of plastic you found in the bottom of a turned out drawer in my now looted closet and triumphantly exclaiming "See....I proved it! You're a hypocrite! NOW LEAVE POOR APPLE ALOOOOOOONE!!!!"

Enjoy your triumph! It's not like businessmen JUST LIKE STEVE JOBS haven't worked really hard to make sure the alternative is impossible. They saw that "cheap labor" in China and said to themselves "Damn I just gotta tap me some of that...." And not only did they pay LOADS of MONEY to get what they want we also give them tax breaks to do it while their apologists try to tell us it's completely our fault. Where have I seen that line of reasoning recently? Ohhhhhh yeah. The GOP on the safety net. That's a shitty situation that's our fault too. The serial numbers aren't even completely filed off....

So to summarize this for you the presence of some hypothetical piece of crap from China in my closet is NOT, REPEAT NOT, a get out of jail card for APPLE. If poor Apple is all upset thinking they're being singled out perhaps they shouldn't spend millions on advertising to create the impression that they're the "BESTEST COMPANY ON EARTH" cause that kind of raises expectations.

Your prying into my underwear isn't going to change this fundamental fact.

By the way, that particular sweatshop was in Pakistan. Not China.

I looked just now ESPECIALLY for you....

You're welcome and I hope this satisfies you.

[jsmirman]

109. Someone's getting seriously worked over here, and it ain't Pholus

Tesha keeps trudging forward, pretending it's only a flesh wound. It's not. The arguments have grown weaker and weaker, and Pholus is still turning them back, returned to sender inside-out.

The situation is so appalling, that there can be no enjoyment in reading about the situation, but this has been an entertaining part of the thread.

[Pholus]

121. I thought you said I wasn't worth debating with. I'll counter that Walmart sells loads too.

And high sales does not excuse the absolute INSULT Apple has made to the U.S. workforce.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and-a-squeezed-middle-class.html?pagewanted=all

"Apple’s executives believe the vast scale of overseas factories as well as the flexibility, diligence and industrial skills of foreign workers have so outpaced their American counterparts that “Made in the U.S.A.” is no longer a viable option for most Apple products. "

[Pholus]

122. Incidentally, that does prove you ran out of arguments when you resorted to "neener neener" talk.

My work here is now, finally, done. You never, ever, managed to win on a point.

[joshcryer]

59. Only a very small number. I'm glad we are on the same side on this issue.

Though I'm probably on ignore...

[joshcryer]

65. Oh yes, I know, and I enjoy our little back and forths.

Even though we're on completely opposite ends of some issues.

(I think GGM has me on ignore now, but I could be wrong.)

[former9thward]

68. Don't bring facts to the anti-Apple crowd.

They love their bias and won't give it up. The suicide rate at Foxcomm, which we have all heard about, is actually less than any of the 50 states. http://articles.businessinsider.com/2010-05-26/tech/30097107_1_suicide-rate-foxconn-suicide-prevention

[girl gone mad]

73. A ridiculous comparison.

As I outlined above, the suicides at Foxconnn involved people walking away from the assembly line and jumping out of a window. How many of Apple's American employees have gotten up from their desks and killed themselves on the job? That would be a valid comparison to make.

[former9thward]

91. No it would not.

The Foxconn employees live on the site. It is basically a town of 700,000 with schools, hospitals, etc. Apple employees in the U.S. do not live where they work. As I stated don't bring facts to the anti-Apple crowd, they just love their bias too much.

[Pholus]

83. I appreciate the tactics which were brought to bear to make this happen. Very classy. See #82.

After all, not many companies have the cojones to tell their employees that if they suicide their family will get shafted.

None in the U.S. obviously. I guess if we got rid of that maybe the jobs would come back?

[former9thward]

92. Actually all companies in the U.S. that have life insurance do this.

Life insurance polices have suicide exemptions. If someone commits suicide in the U.S. what benefits do they get in the U.S.? None.

[Pholus]

100. In the U.S. foxconn would be sunk under wrongful death lawsuits.

That's why our greedy corrupt companies like it over there. Lots of exploitative "cheap labor" who work because they're over a barrel. Of course, since we're talking Apple, it's ok.

In fact, may I propose the term IOKIYA -- "It's okay if you're Apple" so that we can conclude threads like this with less bandwidth. It can be used both seriously and ironically with the right inflection.

[former9thward]

106. Many companies use Foxconn

But the I Live To Hate Apple crowd ignores that. Where was the device you are using to post made? Your phone? You use the technology but then attack the companies. As I have stated never bring facts to the hate Apple crowd, they love their bias too much.

[Pholus]

110. Okay. Let's put this "everybody does it" thing to bed here. It's simply morally repugnant.

What would you prefer? The status quo? For this all to go away? For the "haters" to just STFU? Yeah, that's easier but that's because it's the wrong decision.

By adopting this weak "everybody does it" position you are in effect admitting that there are two Apple Computer Companies:

1) the Apple of all the marketing hype -- wonderful caring creative throughful people. You know, all the stuff you'd like to be.
2) the Apple of reality -- a relatively ruthless business fixated on the bottom line just like every company.

They are sitting on gobs of cash -- more than they can apparently spend or invest -- and they can't see fit to improve the conditions for the people who made this money for them?

Really?

Oh yes, I'm sure the chocolate ration is quite generous for these workers COMPARED TO OTHERS. But these are still working like dogs for no reason other than someone can force them to in circumstances that seem quite unpleasant. I certainly wouldn't want to labor in those conditions for those hours for that pay, even if you rescaled it to US wages. The quality of life is simply appalling. I want to SEE my family more than 1 day out of every two weeks. Of course, that's why our jobs are over there now. Because somebody figured out you COULD treat these people like dogs and pay them like crap. What a WONDERFUL achievement. Bonuses for everyone! Apple stock splits again! Woohoo!

And yet you're seeking a pass for this behavior on the grounds that these complaints unfairly single out your favorite company? Why? Isn't the fact that it's occuring most of the problem instead of who gets the negative PR?

Apple is being paid a compliment here. They spend a lot of time bragging about how great they are and how successful they are. You should be HAPPY that your company, who is in the most logical position to DO something about this problem is being asked to step up to the plate. They should, and if they did others would follow merely to emulate their success.

Unless you recognize the reality of this -- which is that Apple doesn't give a crap as long as their bonus checks roll in on time and the people buying their products can be pacified or kept ignorant. If that's true, you're more cynical than even I am.

[former9thward]

111. The Chinese people disagree with you.

People fight to get those jobs. I doubt you are going to find too many employees there agreeing with your description of the woeful conditions. Every year millions of Chinese are going from poverty to the middle class because of companies like Apple. Of course we can't have that can we.

[Pholus]

112. Oh yes. People fight hard when desperate. Fundamental tenet of the "cheap labor" movement.

I'm amazed. I just had to explain this on DEMOCRATIC Underground for the THIRD TIME in a single thread.

People are lined up fighting for jobs in this country too. Doesn't mean it's cause the jobs are the greatest, it's just the best option they have. It's why EVERY tenet of the Republican party has the goal of making people desperate -- make the worker be happy for what they got and then pay them a fraction of what they are WORTH while lining your pockets with the difference.

Cheap labor is exactly why the jobs left in the 70's and exactly why APPLE just told President Obama they're not coming back here.

By the way, , that was APPLE EXECUTIVES saying that. Why SHOULDN'T I be singling out your poor darlings for special scorn? Why as a Democrat and a supporter of OUR middle class should I love Apple?

Yeah, the pay compares well but to get that pay they get WORKED LIKE DOGS. Apple is sitting on a mountain of cash and won't do a damned thing to improve that. Ohhhhhhh so ethical. The difference between me and you is that eventually it will be cheaper to go full-robotic in manufacturing. On that day, APPLE will drop their Chinese work force like a used hanky -- try to deny THAT with a straight face. I'll feel pretty bad about it and you'll be full-on talking about the wonderful lifestyle of the lucky few people who got jobs to maintain the robots and fondling your newest year's i-doo-dad.

In the end, though, there is no arguing with "cheap labor" conservatives -- regardless of which political party they ostensibly call their own.

[former9thward]

113. Of course they would go to robots if they could.

Which of course would mean jobs in the U.S. because they could save on shipping costs to their biggest markets. I'm sure you are still feeling sorry for all the blacksmiths and horseshoers that were put out of jobs by the auto. Do you also not use email or the internet to pay bills so that there can be a maximum number of postal employees? Refuse to use ATMs or bank online to maximize the number of bank employees?

[Pholus]

114. Apple says that you too hold a blacksmith's hammer in the brave new "global economy."

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2012/jan/22/apple-america-and-squeezed-middle-class/

The article itself makes a single statement is too simple and direct to be taken out of context:

"Apple executives believe there simply aren’t enough U.S. workers with the skills the company needs or factories with sufficient speed and flexibility."

So by what insane leap of logic do you think these future robot jobs come back? Go on. TRY to argue this one...but you've already lost before you begin. The supply chain COMES here now, it DOESN'T go in the other direction with anything but food.

I started off thinking that this was merely a bad PR move on the part of Apple and a few people on DU with brand loyalty outweighing a sense of decency and fairness.

Then I read this article.

Flat out in black and white Apple DOES NOT SEE a future for itself in this country. Oh yes, they see customers all right but they have obviously detached themselves from any sort of a shared destiny or sense of shared responsibility.

Given foxconn I should have suspected as much, but I guess once again I find myself insufficiently cynical to deal with the actual reality on the ground.

At the end of the article, Jobs told the President that he isn't worried for this country and that while this country is "insanely great" we don't talk enough about solutions.

Mightly rich bullshit considering the President of the United States was minutes before fishing for a solution from him and got shot down in flames. And the statement about not being worried about the country can obviously can be read TWO ways with typical hipster irony.

Support your little logo all you wish, but keep in mind their own words agree with my conclusion that they are no longer an AMERICAN company and thus are unworthy of ANY of my sympathy.

[former9thward]

115. Well my insane leap of logic was already in my previous post

but of course I lost before I began. Robots would come here because they would save on the shipping costs to their biggest markets. Those computers and iphones don't fly themselves to the U.S. It costs money. Operating a robot in the U.S. would cost about the same as operating one in China. The supply goes one way now because of cheaper labor in Asia. With robots that would be out of the equation. Judging from your posts I'm sure you smashed your tv when if you saw Mrs. Jobs sitting next to Michell Obama at the State of the Union.

[Pholus]

116. You make no sense. Why would ruining a perfectly functional TV make this better?

Last edited Sun Feb 19, 2012, 08:27 AM - Edit history (1)

You certainly didn't read many of the previous posts in this thread. I forgive you partly. It's very repetitive because of refrain of "but everybody does it" whining that's supposed to serve as some kind of magic-cure-all-STFU line on the part of the Apple apologists.

Your attempt at a humorous barb was poorly chosen given your target. See post 90. If you've given THAT little thought about what would rile me, I can only presume that your understanding of the issue is similarly shallow.

Quite obviously you also didn't READ the article I referenced in my last post. Had you done so, you would have seen the esteemed late Mr. Jobs' excuse as to why the jobs will not come back. I thought about making you look it up out of spite, but I'll spoon feed it just this once because you obviously have a bit of a lazy bone.

See, we've sent SOOOOO many jobs to "cheap labor China" that the industrial concentration there now makes them far more flexible than left-behind America can ever be without massive investment that nobody is willing to make. Even with your American job saving Apple-brand i-robots, it would be a hassle to send them here because last minute production line changes (for example a last minute need for a million microscopic screws) can be easily effected by the other supplies whose factories in China are now blocks, not continents, away from the assembly line.

So, you really did fail at even a basic understanding of this issue. Even Apple's invincible overlord robots will not be coming back here. When we're out of money this time, it's pretty much for good.

Seriously, just read the durned article. I get the impression that you'd be prone to Apple hero-worship so you'll probably enjoy the touching little story about Mr. Jobs' demand for perfection on some glass displays and how the Chinese could fill this demand better than America ever could.

You won't really understand the implications, but basically it just says how in a hole we REALLY are because of our corporations' instatiable greed for "cheap labor." We HAVE crossed the rubicon when our ability to manufacture technology has been completely compromised and that probably will not change anytime soon. That, more than some perceived social slight on TV, brings tears to my eyes. Not that you have displayed any awareness as to why any of us should care.

Oh to heck with it. Why am I ever bothering to shake you out of your stupor. It's basically too late anyway. Just go back and play with your i-whatever for a while until you've been distracted enough that you can't remember what we were talking about. It makes you a better consumer anyway.

[cherokeeprogressive]

78. "the norm" = A poke in the eye with a sharp stick. n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

80. Not enough? Too many? Who counts? Just call me an Apple hater; I like it.

I taught Photoshop in a classroom that was 50/50 Apple G3s and PCs. I wasn't impressed with the Apple machines.

[Romulox]

94. From "better than the norm!" to "EVERYBODY'S doin' it!" in a few short equivocations.

What stunning rhetoric you have at your disposal!

[Romulox]

96. I reject your premise; namely that owning Chinese made products makes

criticism of the biggest tech company in the world off bounds.

[brentspeak]

103. The Fair Labor Association is a phony, industry-funded "watchdog"

Put in place by multinationals to sugarcoat their own sweatshop abuses.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/14/technology/critics-question-record-of-fair-labor-association-apples-monitor.html

We get it: you have investments in Apple or are employed by Apple or are otherwise in love with Apple and/or making money because of Apple, and you'd like suckers out there to believe the propaganda.

Didn't work.

[Pholus]

117. Sorry, your OP was corporate PR spin. It got shredded.

And as each thread of it was destroyed, you simply stopped discussing that part and pretended it was never said.

Even now -- what EXACTLY are you trying to say here?

Paragraph 1: Apple would pay money for your testimonial. Seems like an Ad.

Paragraph 2: Apple would also pay money for your testimonial. Seems like an Ad.

Paragraph 3: Why is everybody always picking on me?

Yeah, I think Apples are dumbed down trash. But then again, any restrictive use of technology -- especially one that depends so heavily on a model of vertical integration and closed access -- is not one for me. That's just individual choice and I'd playfully accept your accusations that I am a member of an anti-Apple cult in that regard. I tease my apple oriented co-workers endlessly and when they find an advantage over me they tease me back. That's just good techie fun.

But you have given me an education here by forcing me to pay attention. You've proven that what originally was merely a dislike for "hipster technology" is actually grounded in distrust for a large, wealthy multinational corporation whose actions are in conflict with their benevolent public face.

Your company is an UNDISPUTED financial leader. Every time you tried to say that "everybody does it" if you break it down by computing revenues it pretty much boils down to "Apple and a few smaller players" do it. Apple has a public image that is PART of their business model. If they cannot take responsibility for what they do, I have zero respect for anything associated with them becaise they are just more "cheap labor" liars like Nike and the other textile companies.

Contracting through a corp-funded group like FLA would not have been as impressive as, you know, actually doing something. The bit about your FLA representatives using IPADS for their surveys turned my stomach on the issue for good. I've been involved in enough activities where I had to sign CONFLICT OF INTEREST statements that I can easily recognize it's appearance. That's NOT how an independent group would behave, nor would it be relevant for a SERIOUS story about inspections of this sort. That was a sentence planted by a marketer to re-emphasize the utility of the product. In a way, just like the post I'm responding to now.

And then I found that article where Mr. Jobs explained why Apple jobs will not be returning jobs to this country. Well, then it gets more personal. I guess I have a bit of tribalism in me yet and I've been through Detroit enough times to understand what Shenzhen means for the lives of actual people I know.

Apple's publically stated position is that U.S. workers do not posess sufficient skills or motivation for them. I resent that and resent them for having such a high-handed arrogant egotistical opinion.

Based on just that SINGLE sentence, Apple is not a company I will EVER support financially or in any other way.

Sorry if you take that personally. At least we both do that much.

[Pholus]

119. We stopped debating when you ran out of new things to say.

After a while, market-speak cannot stand up to the plain and simple on the record statements Apple makes.

Game, set and match for the "Murcan"

[Pholus]

101. Agreed. I've shown above just how absurd the moral equivalism will get.

But my underwear are now firmly back on (and a bit too snug)... ;P

[sudopod]

104. Why did Anti-Apartheid protestors pick on Barclays

when hundreds of other banks did business in South Africa?