Suppose a foreign leader had Osama bin Laden in her plane

[MannyGoldstein]

taking OBL to a country for asylum. Back when OBL was alive, and after 9/11.

Would the US be justified in grounding that plane and snatching OBL?

19 votes, 2 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes
	10 (53%)
	No
	9 (47%)
	This hurts my head
	0 (0%)
	2 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[allin99]

1. he committed mass murder, so yes, asking other countries...

to block their airspace would be okay to me.

[rustydog]

2. Moot point. First of all, it may already have happened, BUT BUSHCO was never interested

in BinMissing since sept 12th except during election cycles, then it was Osama, mushroom clouds....If Osama is talking to someone in Amurika, I wanna know about it!!!!

If Bush had a call from someone saying they had Bin Missing on their jet and did he want them to land in DC, bush would have said NO.

[cthulu2016]

3. Of course. We were *at war* with OBL. Sorry to drag law into this, but it matters

A plane with OBL on it would have been like a ship with Hitler on it in 1943.

The US Courts say that Congress declared war on OBL.

A more apt question would be whether we would have forced down the Hindenberg if Al Capone was on it.

[Peacetrain]

4. Hell Yes.. we would get Bin Laden

Think of the thousands upon thousands of lives that would have been saved.. trying to find the find the SOB in the first place.. that does not even begin to add in the people killed on 9/11 and his dedication to killing more.. It is a no brainer

Edit to add.. that was a very thought provoking question.. seriously.. my first inclination was to say no.. and it took about 15 seconds to re think it..

[bowens43]

10. the end would not justify the means. We are a country of laws , without them we are nothing.

[Peacetrain]

11. Tell that to the thousands killed by Bin Laden

and to the multiple thousands who have died because we were chasing the SOB around from country to country..we are a country of laws.. and many of them pertain to protection from people who are intent on hurting you..the question was pretty specific.. and yep Bin Laden.. Hitler any mass murderer intent on doing other harm not only in the past but in the future.. you bet.. have that plane land.. and take him into custody..

[AgingAmerican]

13. This is the exact argument/excuse the neocons used to invade Iraq

n/t

[Peacetrain]

14. Bull Hockey..

The question was pretty damn specific.

[Peacetrain]

15. Let me add this to my own post.. specifics

Between 150 and 200 thousand.. let me repeat that 150 to 200 thousand Iraqi and Afghanistan civilians have died in the wars since 2003

Over 5000 American soldiers have been killed

Countless thousands .. have been egregiously wounded ..physically and mentally..

If in 2001, we could have taken Bin Laden off a plane.. oh yeah.. no problem in the world with that.. he had already orchestrated the death of over 2000 in New York

[AgingAmerican]

22. The money laundering operations in Iraq and Afghanistan

Had nothing to do with chasing or catching Bin laden, and would have happened regardless.

The end justifies means argument was also used to justify torture. It is a very common RW fallacy. That fallacy is called the "Pious fraud". In the context of justifying inhumanity, it is referred to as a 'name of God' fallacy.

[Peacetrain]

25. Off topic much? the question was specific..

a foreign leader has OBL on her plane taking OBL to a country for asylum. Back when OBL was alive, and after 9/11.

Would the US be justified in grounding that plane and snatching OBL?"

now lets try this again..

[AgingAmerican]

26. My answer is specific to YOUr position

You just refuse to acknowledge it. Have a nice day.

[Peacetrain]

29. The United Nations had been trying to get Bin Laden out of Afghanistan since 1999

Bin Laden was a monster wrapped in religion.. who killed thousands at the drop of hat..again specific to the ops poll question.. yes, getting Bin Laden off the plane.. no problem.. he was a killing monster

[AgingAmerican]

33. Sorry, I don't buy into

right wing 'solutions.'

[Peacetrain]

44. Okay.. I do not do na na nah boo boo

you would not arrest bin laden if there had been that opportunity.. got it.. I would have..

[DisgustipatedinCA]

37. Upwards of 1M Iraqis killed. This has nothing at all to do with OBL, however.

[Peacetrain]

41. The whole thread is about OBL

including my subthread.. answering accusations from other participants .. from the original poll question.. to my specifics of why if we had had the opportunity to take OBL off a plane and arrest him.. it could have saved thousands of additional lives.. not only the initial 2000 plus he orchestrated the killing of.

What did you think this thread was about?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

43. Brace yourself. Have a comfortable seat. I have something to tell you.

Iraq didn't have anything to do with bin Laden or 9/11.

[Peacetrain]

45. Who said anything about Iraq having anything to do with 9/11

maybe you might want to read the subthread again from the start...

[DisgustipatedinCA]

48. You did, in post 15

[Peacetrain]

49. Clean your glasses my friend.. I did NOT

"Between 150 and 200 thousand.. let me repeat that 150 to 200 thousand Iraqi and Afghanistan civilians have died in the wars since 2003

Over 5000 American soldiers have been killed

Countless thousands .. have been egregiously wounded ..physically and mentally..

If in 2001, we could have taken Bin Laden off a plane.. oh yeah.. no problem in the world with that.. he had already orchestrated the death of over 2000 in New York "

the post exactly.. I put up the numbers of casualties inflicted during the wars in the middle east.. people in Iraq who had nothing to do with nothing died also.. I am not leaving their losses out.. this country went to war with a country that had nothing to do with the attacks..

[DisgustipatedinCA]

51. Ok. I believe you, but I still don't understand your original point

[Peacetrain]

54. My original post

"Think of the thousands upon thousands of lives that would have been saved.. trying to find the find the SOB in the first place.. that does not even begin to add in the people killed on 9/11 and his dedication to killing more.. It is a no brainer

Edit to add.. that was a very thought provoking question.. seriously.. my first inclination was to say no.. and it took about 15 seconds to re think it.. "

It was my response to the ops poll question.. and yes I would have arrested OBL.. I would have asked the plane to land.. and taken him off the plane and arrested him.. He had orchestrated the killing of over 2000 people on 9/11 not to mention other bombings.. but yeah.. I would have him arrested.. I would take him off the plane..It would not have brought back those who died in 9/11.. but neither would we have been in Afghanistan the last few years trying to find him.. We went back into Afghanistan.. doubled down to find him, and once finding him in Pakistan, how many people have had to die as we extract ourselves from this miserable mess..

[sabrina 1]

68. Bin Laden was never indicted for 9/11. Mainly because he didn't matter and while I think

that if someone was a declared enemy of this or any of the states with whom we have treaties, no one who is a contributing member to those agreements WOULD do such a thing. If some other nation with whom we do not have treaties were to do it, then yes, any country has a right to go after a dangerous threat to their security.

Maybe next time we should indict those we claim are the biggest threat to our security ever.

He was however indicted for the Embassy Bombings.

[Peacetrain]

76. The UN was trying to extract OBL out of Afghanistan starting in 1999

He later claimed responsibility for the the attacks.. The Clinton administration warned the Bush administration of exactly what this deranged character was up to.. and they decided not to listen.. You are right of course.. no nation that we have any treaties with would harbor or give asylum to such a person.. But the ops original poll was if we knew Bin Laden was on a plane, with some foreign leader seeking asylum should we get try and get Bin Lade off that plane.. Hypothetical question.. and YEP.. for all the reasons I have listed of things we look back now with 20/20 clarity.. I would want Bin Laden arrested.. He kept killing and killing.. over 200 killed and 4000 injured in the embassy bombings of 98..

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1189 August 13, 1998

The Security Council was shocked at the attacks which had a damaging effect on international relations and was convinced that the suppression of acts of terrorism was essential for international peace and security.[2] It stressed that every Member State should refrain from organising, encouraging or participating in terrorist acts in other countries. Furthermore, there was a need to strengthen international co-operation between states to take measures to prevent and combat terrorism.[3]

The bombings in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam were strongly condemned, and condolences were expressed to the families of the victims. All countries and international institutions were urged to provide assistance to the investigations in Kenya, Tanzania and the United States to apprehend those responsible and to facilitate reconstruction of infrastructure in both countries.[4] Finally, all countries were urged to adopt, in accordance with international law, measures for security and co-operation to prevent further acts and for the prosecution and punishment of the perpetrators of terrorism.

[sabrina 1]

77. I am more than familiar with the entire history of Bin Laden. He took responsibility for the

Embassy attacks and back when this country still respected the law, he was indicted for those crimes. For 9/11 he denied being responsible and for whatever reason was never indicted for that crime.

We invaded Iraq which had zero to do with 9/11 based on lies told by the Bush administration, another crime for which so far, no one has been indicted. Since then we are told over one million human beings have been killed, by us! Who is going to stop the killing now?

We lost all moral authority and sympathy because of the killing spree we have been on for over a decade now and because of our own abandonment of the rule of law.

So it's kind of pointless at this time to talk about holding people responsible for crimes. We don't do that anymore. Wall St. Criminals were also given a free pass and billions of dollars to help cover up their crimes.

When we return to being a nation that respects our own and International laws, we can base our arguments on 'the law'. Until then all we can do is talk about right and wrong and forget the US talking about 'abiding by the law'. It's a free for all now, once we abandoned the rule of law.

[Peacetrain]

80. 200 people killed at an embassy in 98 is hardly pointless

and I posted the UN Resolution on OBL from the attacks of 98 on the embassies, in the post right above yours...

Bin Laden did take credit for the killings of 9/11 in a video

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/binladen_10-29-04.html

"We decided to destroy towers in America," he said. "God knows that it had not occurred to our mind to attack the towers, but after our patience ran out and we saw the injustice and inflexibility of the American-Israeli alliance toward our people in Palestine and Lebanon, this came to my mind."

I would have had OBL arrested if the scenario the op posted for his poll had been available to us..

[sabrina 1]

84. Yes, I remember that and it was considered to be fake at the time.

See here, too many links to post here https://www.google.com/webhp?source=search_app#sclient=psy-ab&q=bin+laden+denies+involvement+9+11&oq=Bin+Laden+denies+invol&gs_l=hp.1.1.0l2j0i22i30l2.2365.8460.0.15835.22.17.0.0.0.0.2524.23425.8-7j5.12.0.epsugrpqhmsignedin%2Chtma%3D120%2Chtmb%3D120..0.0.0..1.1.17.psy-ab.BaCnbvdLoj8&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48705608,d.aWc&fp=a7a8d60234fbb807&biw=1249&bih=570

I don't believe I said that 200 people was pointless, since I consider the loss of ONE life to be more than pointless no matter who is doing it.

And my point is, that since we went rampaging around the ME killing people who had nothing to do with 9/11, we have zero moral authority now when it comes to these issues.

[Peacetrain]

85. I am not sure what you are saying.. so before I misconstrue your intent

let me try and back this up.. you are saying we would not have moral authority to stop Bin Laden if we could have arrested him (this is a hypothetical question posed by the op of this thread..) and therefore is what?

I am not sure what your point is..

You would not arrest Bin Laden? Well I would have..and maybe, just maybe.. our elected officials would not have drug us into a war that .. see my post 15 so many people lost..

Would we still have gone to war.. I have no idea.. no one knows.. that is what a hypothetical question is about.

But we sure as heck would not have doubled back down in Afghanistan.. trying to find Bin Laden.. and still trying to extract ourselves..

I would have arrested Bin Laden..

[sabrina 1]

91. I would have arrested him for what he was indicted for, the Embassy Bombings. There

was plenty of evidence of his role in those crimes.

There was no evidence of his rile in 9/11 and he was never indicted or charged with that crime. Also he denied it. We never had an investigation into that crime, other than the very compromised excuse for an investigation only after the victims pressured Congress to do so.

I believe in the rule of law and of abiding by the law. We had the moral authority and justice on our side before 9/11.

But as we've been told so often, everything changed after 9/11. Would we have gone to war, yes. That was the plan and no one was going to stop them. But that war had zero to do with 9/11. It was a war of aggression, an invasion of a sovereign nation in which hundreds of thousands of innocents were killed and tortured and wrongfully detained and millions were displaced from their homes and country.

So yes, arrest Bin Laden for the crimes we know he was responsible for and arrest the War Criminals from the Bush administration. Everyone should be equal under the law.

But we have now abandoned the rule of law, so all of this is just reminiscing over how things would be and should be in an actual democratic state where the law is respected.

[Peacetrain]

86. Let me add a second post to this sabrina..

this is a hypothetical exercise that Manny proposed.. and my first instinct was to say no (I even noted that in my original post.).. but I got side tracked for a few minutes.. and it gave me a second to reassess.. Bin Laden.. we knew Bin Laden had attacked the embassies.. we knew that.. the UN knew that.. hundreds dead.. that is just a fact.

Hypothetically we did not know at that time.. what was about to happen.. that we would be in a ten year war.. that hundreds of thousands of civilians would die.. over 5000 of our own soldiers.. and hundreds of thousands with injuries mental and physical in the service of our nation that we live in..


All that would have been an unknown at the time...even more so, I would have arrested Bin Laden.. he was a mass murderer on a incredible scale then.. and we knew he was targeting our country..

Looking back with 20/20 clarity... we see everything else that happened..

We are not relegating a war here.. I was always opposed to our going into Iraq from the get go.. but Bin Laden.. I would have arrested him in a heart beat.. even then..

[sabrina 1]

87. Yes, he should have been arrested, charged and tried like anyone else who commits

murder. I understand that the question is hypothetical. I just wanted to point out that the rule of law was abandoned, we were told so many lies, and then we did even worse than Bin Laden when we killed, and we are still killing, hundreds of thousands mostly innocent people.

But yes, if we go back to when the rule of law was still in effect, he should have been arrested and tried in an open court.

Now, we have lost all credibility and no one knows what to do about anything anymore.

[Peacetrain]

89. I appreciate what you are saying and agree with you ..

100%.. we have lost credibility.. we can get it back.. the first thing we should do to get that creditability back is try in civil courts Guantanamo prisoners.. As long as we have that open boil .. we will never have the standing we need to be a force for good in the world.. and we have had some pretty ugly things in our history.. but for some ungodly reason.. the congress will not let us correct this blight on our system.. I know that is off topic of the thread..and Manny I am NOT high jacking your thread.. this is just a one time statement..

[NM_Birder]

5. depends,

if by grounding, you mean permission/diplomacy, jointly secure the plane to a specific site..etc.than yes.

If you mean grounding via a AA missle,....then no.

[Arctic Dave]

6. Suppose a foreign leader had georgy bush in her plane.

Would Iraq be justified in forcing it down.


After all, he killed more people then OBL.

[KharmaTrain]

21. If There Was A Warrant...

...for his arrest by the International Tribunal in the Hague...I'd be all for it. Without one, that's a breach of sovereignty. There were mutliple warrants out for bin Laden. I wish someone would have the stones to bring up charges against dubya, crashcart and the rest of that cabal with the only court that could fairly try them...in the Hague. The U.S. can't and won't do it...but why won't another country?

Cheers...

[Zorra]

75. +1 nt

[greatauntoftriplets]

79. Me too. I've been saying that for years.

[ZombieHorde]

7. As justified as another country doing the same for certain high ranking

officials in the Bush and Obama administration. Both have championed policies that they knew would lead to many innocent deaths. Their foreign policies are more reckless than drinking and driving.

[Enrique]

8. bogus comparison

Snowden is so much worse than bin Laden.

[bowens43]

9. Of course it would NOT have been justified.

[Marrah_G]

12. No

[arely staircase]

16. absolutely, and I will go even farther and say we would be justified in shooting it down

harboring bin laden would be an act of war against the United States. Now would that be wise? You would have to weigh it against what the other country's response might be. But it would be justified.

[cherokeeprogressive]

31. You'd shoot down Angela Merkel's plane? Seriously? For harboring/ferrying a fugitive? Whoa.

[arely staircase]

46. Angela Merkel hanging with bin Laden?

can't picture it.

edited to say a plane with Mullah Omar and the Taliban would be a more likely scenario, and the answer is yes. yes I would.

[cherokeeprogressive]

59. And you call Mullah Omar a "world leader"?

Which, BTW, is the point of the OP.

[arely staircase]

60. I would call him a "foreign leader" as per the OP

when he was in charge of Afghanistan.

[cherokeeprogressive]

63. I really don't think that's what the OP had in mind.

[arely staircase]

64. Why doesn't that count?

He was the head of Afghanistan, therefore a foreign leader.

[cherokeeprogressive]

65. "her"

[arely staircase]

66. so it has to be a female foreign leader?

that is an odd qualifier.

[cherokeeprogressive]

67. Take your complaint to the OP.

[arely staircase]

69. no complaint, I just don't interpret the OP as limiting the scenario to the less than 10 percent

of world leaders who are women. I took "her" as a universal pronoun, which it is being used as more and more as these days.

[HooptieWagon]

34. Suppose Obama was riding in Merkel's plane...

N Korea is justified in shooting it down according to your argument. Note: US is still at war with N Korea.

[arely staircase]

47. in that scenario they would have to consider the wisdom of it

and what the reaction of the US would be. and as batshit crazy as they are I am pretty confident what their decision would be.

[HooptieWagon]

50. Ahhh, the "might makes right" argument. OK.

Lets suppose Obama was to give Morsi asylum, and a lift to the US on AF1. You ok with egyptians "forcing it to the ground"?

[arely staircase]

53. In a war? Yes.

And as for the Morsi scenario same answer as the N. Korean one.

[AgingAmerican]

23. Even though it was carried out by Saudis

nt

[cherokeeprogressive]

30. Wow. I guess I missed your openly advocating wiping out over 3,000,000 innocent people.

And now you're advocating the killing of a "foreign leader" (Let's go with Angela Merkel or Julia Gillard on that plane, mmmkay?) with a Hellfire missile for harboring a fugitive.

You're a diplomatic wonder, that's what you are...

[DisgustipatedinCA]

39. You should really go somewhere else with your mass murder fantasies

Take your filth where it belongs.

[Marrah_G]

72. sick

[bluestate10]

18. If a foreign leader had OBL on a plane with him or her knowing how he was, the plane

should be shot down with missiles.

[QC]

19. That depends. Which party is the president a member of?

Gotta be true to one's team, you know.

[idwiyo]

28. ...

[Savannahmann]

20. Diplomatic Privelege is not a joke.

Look, let's stop screwing around here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_Clause

Before we violate a treaty, we're supposed to notify the other signatories that we are leaving the treaty, and each treaty has a time limit from when we announce, to when we are no longer bound by it. The Vienna Conventions are in force at this time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Diplomatic_Relations

The treaty is an extensive document, containing 53 articles. Following is a basic overview of its key provisions.[2] For a comprehensive enumeration of all articles, consult the original text.[3]
Article 9. The host nation may at any time and for any reason declare a particular member of the diplomatic staff to be persona non grata. The sending state must recall this person within a reasonable period of time, or otherwise this person may lose their diplomatic immunity.
Article 22. The premises of a diplomatic mission, such as an embassy, are inviolate and must not be entered by the host country except by permission of the head of the mission. Furthermore, the host country must protect the mission from intrusion or damage. The host country must never search the premises, nor seize its documents or property. Article 30 extends this provision to the private residence of the diplomats.
Article 27. The host country must permit and protect free communication between the diplomats of the mission and their home country. A diplomatic bag must never be opened even on suspicion of abuse. A diplomatic courier must never be arrested or detained.
Article 29. Diplomats must not be liable to any form of arrest or detention. They are immune from civil or criminal prosecution, though the sending country may waive this right under Article 32. Under Article 34, they are exempt from most taxes, and under Article 36 they are exempt from most customs duties.
Article 31.1c Actions not covered by diplomatic immunity: professional activity outside diplomat's official functions.
Article 37. The family members of a diplomat that are living in the host country enjoy most of the same protections as the diplomats themselves

Now, either those words mean things, or they do not. Either we are a world built upon independent nations, and our independent nations is one where laws and principles matter, or it is merely thinly organized anarchy, where might makes right. I sincerely hope it is not the latter. I'd hate to think that my faith in the rule of law for all the years of my life, and my Father's entire life, was misplaced.

[struggle4progress]

81. Let us get the facts right, so we know what we are actually discussing, before we consider

what abstract principles may be involved

For example, was the plane searched, or not searched in Vienna? Reports have been wildly conflicting

Evo Morales’s controversial flight over Europe, minute by heavily disputed minute
By Max Fisher
Published: July 3, 2013 at 1:58 pm
... Bolivian statements all seem to agree that the plane was searched by Austrian officials while in Vienna. But some – though not all – have hinted that they may not have agreed to the search. The country’s UN ambassador called the search illegal and an act of aggression ... According to Austrian statements, flight FAB-001 requested permission to land in Vienna because the pilots believed they might not have had sufficient fuel. Austrians say they searched the plane with Morales’ permission and checked the passports of all passengers, but called this “routine” ...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/07/03/evo-morales-controversial-flight-over-europe-minute-by-heavily-disputed-minute/

Edward Snowden saga: Bolivia accuses Europe of 'kidnapping' Bolivian president in forcing Evo Morales' plane to land in Vienna
Shaun Walker, Heather Saul
Moscow
Wednesday 03 July 2013
... <Austrian> Deputy Chancellor Michael Spindelegger said that President Evo Morales had agreed to the inspection ...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/edward-snowden-saga-bolivia-accuses-europe-of-kidnapping-bolivian-president-in-forcing-evo-morales-plane-to-land-in-vienna-8682610.html

Audio purportedly from inside the cockpit of Bolivian President Evo Morales’s flight
By Max Fisher, Published: July 3, 2013 at 12:09 pm
... Austrian officials said they conducted a routine search of the plane and passport check. But the Bolivian narrative appears to be contradicted by European officials, some of whom have said Morales’s plane always had permission to enter their airspace ...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/07/03/audio-purportedly-from-inside-the-cockpit-of-bolivian-president-evo-moraless-flight/

Bolivia says president's plane was not searched in Austria
July 03, 2013|Reuters
LA PAZ (Reuters) - Bolivian President Evo Morales' plane was not searched while the leftist leader was stranded in Vienna, the Bolivian defense minister said on Wednesday, contradicting Austrian authorities' statements that a police officer boarded the plane with Morales' permission. Defense Minister Ruben Saavedra said no one boarded the presidential aircraft - presumably to search for fugitive U.S. intelligence analyst Edward Snowden - because Morales refused them entry ...
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-07-03/news/sns-rt-us-usa-security-latinamerica-bolivia-20130703_1_bolivia-president-evo-morales-plane

Only Bolivians aboard Morales plane in Vienna -Austria
Source: Reuters - Wed, 3 Jul 2013 09:46 AM
... "Our colleagues from the airport had a look and can give assurances that no one is on board who is not a Bolivian citizen," Spindelegger added, saying rumours that Snowden might be on board were untrue ...
http://www.trust.org/item/20130703085721-1zdyp

Snowden not on Morales jet in Vienna
Agence France-Presse
July 3, 2013 05:01
... Austria insisted Wednesday that US fugitive intelligence leaker Edward Snowden was not on board Bolivian President Evo Morales's jet, which was diverted to Vienna overnight, but said it did not search the plane ...
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/130703/snowden-not-morales-jet-vienna-0

Snowden rumors temporarily ground Bolivian president's plane
By Catherine E. Shoichet. Holly Yan and Laura Smith-Spark, CNN
July 4, 2013 -- Updated 0258 GMT (1058 HKT)
... Austrian officials confirmed that Snowden was not aboard after Morales allowed an Austrian airport police officer onto his plane for a "voluntary check," Interior Ministry spokesman Karl-Heinz Grundboeck said ...
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/03/world/americas/bolivia-plane-snowden/

Morales back in Bolivia after plane drama over Snowden
Bolivian leader describes incident as ‘an open provocation toward a continent ’
Thu, Jul 4, 2013, 11:16
... Austrian deputy chancellor Michael Spindelegger said Mr Morales personally denied that Mr Snowden was aboard his jet and agreed to a voluntary inspection ...
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/morales-back-in-bolivia-after-plane-drama-over-snowden-1.1452589

Morales back in Bolivia after plane drama over Snowden
Daniel Ramos Reuters
10:49 a.m. EDT, July 4, 2013
... Austrian Deputy Chancellor Michael Spindelegger said Morales personally denied that Snowden was aboard his jet and agreed to a voluntary inspection ... Bolivian Defense Minister Ruben Saavedra said Morales' plane was not searched because Morales had refused Austrian authorities entry ...
http://www.courant.com/news/nation-world/sns-rt-us-usa-security-snowden-20130627,0,4945158.story

Evo Morales Plane Incident: S. American Heads of State Demand Apology
July 5, 2013 | Posted by ABS Staff
... Austrian authorities searched Morales’ plane for Snowden, but found no stowaways on board, Austria’s deputy chancellor has said. ‘An act of aggression and violation of international law’ is how Bolivia‘s U.N. envoy described Austria’s decision to search the Bolivian presidential jet for NSA leaker ...
http://atlantablackstar.com/2013/07/05/evo-morales-plane-incident-s-american-heads-of-state-demand-apology/

Bolivia Threatens U.S. Embassy Closing After Snowden Search
By Nathan Gill - Jul 5, 2013 12:18 PM ET
... The incident led the plane to make an emergency landing in Vienna after a fuel gauge stopped working correctly, Morales said ...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-05/bolivia-threatens-u-s-embassy-closure-after-search-for-snowden.html

Venezuela Questions Relations with Spain Following Bolivian Plane Incident
Published at 9:08 am EST, July 5, 2013
... The Bolivian presidential aircraft spent 13 hours on the ground in Vienna as Austrian authorities searched the plane for former U.S. intelligence contractor Edward Snowden ...
http://www.hispanicallyspeakingnews.com/latino-daily-news/details/venezuela-questions-relations-with-spain-following-bolivian-plane-incident/25623/

[Savannahmann]

82. Vienna Conventions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Diplomatic_Relations

Denial of flight plan while the plane was in flight, having departed on an approved flight plan, was a clear violation of the Vienna Conventions.

A diplomatic bag must never be opened even on suspicion of abuse. A diplomatic courier must never be arrested or detained.

A Presidential Flight qualifies as a Diplomatic Courier. It is carrying the head of state, a head of state recognized by the United Nations, so illegitimacy is denied.

Yes, it was a violation of international law. Yes, it was a violation of international law. How many times must I say it?

[struggle4progress]

83. According to at least one of the articles in my prior post, Morales himself cited

fuel indicator issues as the cause for landing at Vienna

I myself, of course, have no way of determining whether that article is correct or not, though it is consistent with several other articles, and in particular it is consistent with assertions that the plane was "inspected" in Vienna, since inspection will generally be the first step in resolving possible mechanical issues

There is the further matter, that Spain and Portugal both deny revoking overflight permission, while France has apologized for a delay in approving overflight, citing confusion about how many planes were seeking to enter French airspace -- which might actually have been the case, if Bolivia filed more than one flight plan early in the week. Here again, I myself have no way of determining in any fool-proof manner which assertions are true, and which are not, but I am somewhat disinclined to believe, without substantial evidence, that Austria, France, Italy, Portugal, and Spain were somehow engaged in a grand conspiracy against Bolivia, especially if there are simpler explanations available

So I continue to say: let's sort out the facts first; and then we can examine what fundamental principles, if any, are involved

[The Straight Story]

24. Didn't we give some Saudi's a ride home after 9/11? (nt)

[DisgustipatedinCA]

40. Yes, but obviously we only helped The Good Bin Ladens

Do you recall that media actually sold it to us like that back in the fall of 2001? The Bush clan only hung out with the good bin Ladens.

[idwiyo]

27. Absolutely not. Diplomatic plane, specifically when it's a leader's of the foreign country plane

MUST be untouchable. There shouldn't be any exemptions ever. Don't give a shit who is on that plane.

[cherokeeprogressive]

32. Some of the replies in this thread are NOTHING LESS THAN BREATHTAKING.

Shooting down the plane ferrying a "foreign leader" with a Hellfire missile... NUKING Kabul...

These things some DUers would do if a plane was ferrying a known fugitive, and the NUKING of Kabul (population: 3,000,000+) in retaliation for 9/11.

If I didn't see these statements with my own eyes, I'd call anyone who told me DUers would say something like this A LIAR. At least I would have... now I CAN'T.

[HooptieWagon]

35. Yep. DU has been infiltrated by bloodthirsty totalitarian fascists.

[magellan]

36. +1

I'm at the same ones. It's no wonder I find the Democratic Party so objectionable anymore if these people are representative of it. It's like reading FR.

[winter is coming]

55. "Appalling" and "clueless" are the words I'd use. n/t

[frylock]

78. welcome to the big tent

[Gravitycollapse]

38. Are you attempting to compare Snowden to one of the greatest terrorists of the 20th/21st century?

[jazzimov]

42. Once again, you make comparisons

and "metaphors" that have no relation to reality.
At one time I would have loved to have a discussion with you:

that time is long past, since you obviously have no relation to reality left in you.

[BainsBane]

52. Suppose they had Adolph Hitler?

Snowden is not Bin Laden, who is dead anyway. The poll question is ridiculous.

[arely staircase]

56. But Mother Teresa is flying the plane!

who is also dead, so it makes sense.

[BainsBane]

57. In that case

Wait, what?

[msanthrope]

70. Well, according to Christopher Hitchens, who is also dead, shooting down

Mother Theresa's plane would be like shooting down Hitler....so double Godwin there.

[arely staircase]

71. to complicate matters, Hitchens is on the plane too

he is trying to wrestle the controls away from mother Theresa while Hitler and Phyllis Diller (also dead) look on in horror.

[msanthrope]

73. Hitchens is on!!! Shoot the fucker down. nt

[Zorra]

58. Yes. He was responsible for the deaths of many innocent people, and the probability that he

would kill more innocent people was very high.

[Art_from_Ark]

62. So how many people did he kill

from his cave in Afghanistan, er, palatial mansion in Pakistan, after 9/11/01?

[Zorra]

74. I have absolutely no idea. nt

[Aerows]

61. Apples and Oranges

One revealed a surveillance program, the other killed a bunch of people.

[WinkyDink]

88. No. It would constitute an act of war.

[Rex]

90. No, but why would they do that anyway?

You are comparing a mass murderer to a spy. Apples are not oranges.