Everybody has an opinion about Zimmerman but Dr. Baden made an interesting observation

[DemocratSinceBirth]

First of all he's like the Babe Ruth or Tiger Woods of medical examiners and he said the shot was consistent with Trayvon seeing the gun and trying to back off.

[bahrbearian]

1. Did he Testify in the trial?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. No

He was probably expensive... But I'm sure the state could have afforded him.

[bahrbearian]

5. That would have been great testimony

[cheyanne]

3. Please supply link to Dr. Baden.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. Here's a link to Dr. Baden saying Zimmy's injuries were superficial

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/07/02/fear-and-george-zimmerman-trial/

My original post was referring to an interview of him on FOX NEWS last night with Kimberly Guifoyle.

[moondust]

7. Disagree.

If TM was on top, his torso would have been at roughly a 30-45 degree angle to the ground/Z. If he was "trying to back off" his torso would have lurched to an even more vertical position, making it almost impossible for a bullet to pass perpendicular through his body if fired by somebody lying flat on the ground.

[uppityperson]

13. And maybe, just maybe, TM was not on top yet still trying to back off?

[moondust]

15. Indeed.

[xtraxritical]

8. I'll wait for the jury. Everything here is hair on fire conjecture

all the time for months now.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. All the jury can tell us is the state proved its case beyond a shadow of a doubt

All the jury can tell us is the state proved its case beyond a shadow of a doubt ; to their satisfaction. It won't end discussion and conjecture.

[premium]

10. Wrong,

the jury can tell us either the state proved it's case beyond a reasonable doubt or it didn't prove it's case beyond a reasonable doubt.
IMHO, the state didn't prove 2nd Murder beyond a reasonable doubt. I have this terrible feeling that GZ is going to either be acquitted or there's a hung jury.

My experience with criminal trials tells me that the prosecutor's did such an inept job, GZ is going to walk.

I hope I'm wrong, but something tells me that the state's case isn't going to end well for them.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. Not to belabor a small point

But i think my observation is factually correct, ergo:

All the jury can tell us is the state proved its case beyond a shadow of a doubt ; to their satisfaction. It won't end discussion and conjecture.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. I guess it could be stated as thus, too

All the jury can tell us is if the state proved its case beyond a shadow of a doubt ; to their satisfaction. It won't end discussion and conjecture.

But the '"if" is really superfluous.

[premium]

18. Fair point,

but, with my experience in criminal trials, the state's case is weak as far as 2nd Murder, they would have been better off charging him with Manslaughter, which, IMO, would have been an easier charge to prove.

I've just got this terrible feeling that the jury is going to acquit or end up as a hung jury.
Time will tell.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. If the jury acquits I will begrudgingly respect their decision

But I sure as Hell won't like it or agree with it.

[premium]

21. Ditto,

I think he's guilty of making a very bad decision to even consider Trayvon being a suspicious person in the first place, and because of his ill advised suspicion, everything went downhill from there.

[John2]

26. Did you respect the decision

in the OJ trial? A lot of people sure didn't.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. Yep. I thought a guilty man walked , but I was hardly surprised,

I'm old school.

If you unjustly take a life you belong in the hoosegow or worse regardless of your race and the race of your victim,

[John2]

23. I think you

maybe right because this case is poisoned politically. Is it true, that the Sanford community is over 40% white,20% Hispanic and 20% Black? The jury is not a good representation of the community.

The Sanford Police Department did not want to bring charges in the first place, but was pressured because it got national attention. Isn't it also true, the Black community has made complaints against the Sanford police Department on racial injustice?

I find this whole case troubling and the lack of effort by the prosecution to aggressively try to prove their case. Wasn't the Sanford Police Chief given a leave of paid absence because of this case, and the lead investigator remove himself from the case alleging some police officer favored Mr. Martin? Serino was hostile to the prosecution's case from the start, but they acted like he was their witness. They never asked him why he removed himself from the case.

Why would the Judge, allow the Defense team to investigate Martin's school records or Social Media accounts for criminal conduct? Was Martin being accused of a crime? The judge called Zimmerman's past violent behavior a run of the mill conduct which didn't prove he was a danger to society. Those run of the mill acts lead up to bigger acts. Now he is being accused of murder. They are relevant, because they are acts of violence and a record of criminal behavior.

The reason I cite the prosecution's reluctance and the Sanford police department, is because orhers have accused them of police misconduct in this case. The victim's parents accused the prosecutor's office of misconduct and alleged potential witnesses, accused police investigators of altering statements to support Zimmerman's account. Where is the 13 year old boy walking the dog and his mother, or were they just a myth? Where is the guy saying Zimmerman tailgated his car?

[premium]

25. Every thing you say is true,

except the SPD was fired, not placed on paid admin leave.
It almost seems as if the DA is just going through the motions and doesn't really believe it's case, they seem to be doing the minimum presentation of their case. There were several points they could objected to, and yet, they failed to.
I would be shocked if they put Zimmerman on the stand, the state, IMO, has already botched the case beyond repair.

I guess we'll know soon enough if they proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt.

[John2]

29. I don't know these jurors,

but looking at the evidence, and if I was on the jury, I would vote guilty. This is my basis:

1. Zimmerman killed Martin with a deadly weapon. He meant to do it. (Deadly weapon Doctrine), that is automatic.
2. Was it unlawful, I say yes.
a. the only defense he has is self defense. I think the burden is on the Defense to prove he did it in defense. I don't think they have met that burden. The initial evidence, that is not in dispute, Zimmerman was the pursuer.

There is no evidence other than Zimmerman's word saying he stopped the pursuit. So he is still the aggressor. There is no evidence saying Martin turned back, except the word of Zimmerman again. Every evidence, the defense has presented is Zimmerman's words. The only independent evidence they have of Martin beating Zimmerman and Zimmerman calling for help comes from one witness (John Good). There are problems with his testimony. The prosecution should not have made Good their witness based on those problems. He should have been the defense's star witness just like Jeanteal was for the prosecution. Instead the prosecution gave him all this credibility. Even he didn't see who jumped whom.

The only witness in this case testified to hearing the start of the altercation is Jenteal. Unless they impeach her, that is the only evidence there is of who attacked whom. So the defense has provided no evidence, Zimmerman killed Martin in self defense.

Just because one party has more injuries, does not mean they were acting in self defense. Especially if the other party has a loaded gun pointed at you. It is a fact, there was a loaded gun, in the firing position. It is a fact, Zimmerman knew he had a loaded gun ready to fire, when he pursued Martin. It is a fact, he intended to use it on Martin, even before catching up with him (Deadly Weapon Doctrine) automatic. None of Zimmerman's injuries was life threatening, but one injury resulting from a gun shot is life threatening. Martin would know that and so would Zimmerman. Only Zimmerman knew his gun was loaded not Martin. So Even if Martin saw Zimmerman's gun, he did not know it was loaded. So Martin is the one that was fighting for his life, not Zimmerman. And I don't believe Good for one minute, that he ran upstairs because he thought Zimmerman's life was in danger. A reasonable person would have intervened, to save his life.

[ermoore]

30. Not As Sure . . .

I dunno. Given the lack of witnesses who saw more than just bits and pieces a lot of it comes down to Zimmerman's word versus . . . the word of people who weren't there. Given the witnesses that have said Martin was on top, plus Zimmerman's wounds, plus the fact that the defense hasn't even made its case yet, . . . I feel like at the very least there is going to be a LOT of room for reasonable doubt. And to be fair, I have reasonable doubt myself.

Also, there is the legal side and the moral side, and the two are not necessarily the same. It's possible that Zimmerman shooting Martin was legal. While in a karmic sense he may deserve punishment, if it wasn't illegal he doesn't.

[ermoore]

24. Question

Hi premium,

My experience with criminal trials tells me that the prosecutor's did such an inept job, GZ is going to walk.

"Inept" seems like a good description, but in your experience is it ineptness or maybe just a difficult case to make? Or both?

[premium]

27. Hi,

It was a difficult to make the case of 2nd Murder in the first place, Manslaughter would have been a much better and easier charge to prove, and, IMO, the prosecution failed to object several times when the defense was cross examining a witness, case in point, Det. Serino when he was asked to give his opinion on the truthfulness of GZ's statements, among other things.
I don't know if it was ineptness or willful ignorance, however, the prosecutor team has been described as experienced, so, I don't know what to make of their brain farts.

[WovenGems]

11. Baden

also said the human head could go in any direction when impacted by a high velocity weapon. He said this in regards to head shot to JFK. We humans are immune to kinetic energy, WOW!

Baden isn't a rockstar, he is a paid talking head.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. Well, yeah, most expert witnesses are hired guns

But expert witnesses like Wecht, Lee, and Baden are rock stars.

[WovenGems]

17. My point is

when they seek a buck they cease to be experts because experts know the truth and say it while talking heads follow a script.

Money talks and BS walks - into court.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. Welcome to the criminal and civil justice system.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

22. Everybody seems to indeed

Last edited Sat Jul 6, 2013, 02:46 PM - Edit history (1)

Here's mine, I think the prosecution staged a pretty good set up on Zimmerman when the fox news interview Zimmerman did was shown in the court room. In particular the part where Zimmerman the sociopath quotes Sarah Palin -you know-the part where he says he thinks the incident was part of Gods plan. Isn't that what Palin said about her being the vice presidential pick by the McCain camp ? Isn't Alaska a gun advocate state ?

Now Zimmerman must have gotten plenty of jollies out of saying that on national TV although he was able to hold a straight face.
Jollies ='s gratification -something all predators seek.
I find it interesting that the outcome of the jury pick is 6 woman.Actually almost righteous.
But to the point I will reference Susan Smith,and I do not have a link on hand-she's the woman in South Carolina who murdered her kids by drowning in her automobile than called the cops and reported her car and her kids were taken -kidnapped by some unseemly character.

Of Course there were plenty of inconsistencies in her telling of those lies but the most telling thing was her facial expressions and body language when she was filmed telling it to the national/international news reporters. Looking upon her face on tv you just had to know she is a crazy lier.

You see the camera is something most people exception to actors or news people are never prepared to face- If yer telling a lie,you are also telling that you are telling lies by your expressions. That's part of the reason those news camera people are always so hot on the trail of crime news. It might surprise you to know how many cases those news tv stations assist in solving by just what the camera shows.

Another case of a narcissistic sociopathic serial killer is the Stephen Wright case in the UK-where as it so happened the prosecutor who was assigned the case so happened to have the same last name Wright.

Is it coincidence ?

x's 2. Always twice- it's part of complicated theory.

Here is the thing about the camera where they got Zimmerman.
After the showing just at the end of his interview with fox news in the court room ,did you see Zimmerman lean to his right dropping his head and turning his head to the right -out of direct line of the judges sight and the jury box. What I am talking about is Zimmerman's facial expression.
You see Zimmerman was being shown to the court on film in due course of a televised interview and at the same time the cameras were upon him so he was being filmed while a video was shown of his filmed interview-. It was just too much for the socio to contain-. What you saw in Zimmerman's facial expression is what forced it's way through Zimmerman. That is exactly what those socio's struggle to hide or keep contained deep within.

Now if Zimmerman had been on the witness stand in that moment he may have actually spoken ,perhaps said something very damning to his case.
None the less they got him to show himself and the jury will remember always.And it may carry weight in the outcome of the trial.

This isn't about the Babe Ruth of doctors,but it is about some heavy hitters who research serial killers.

Or did I miss perceive what I thought I saw ?