General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDoes Snowden know Venezuela records and broadcasts activists' phone calls?
http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2015952367_apltvenezuelawiretapping.htmlhttp://boingboing.net/2013/07/08/snowden-and-venezuela-my-biza.html
The Venezuelan government's offer of "humanitarian asylum" to Edward Snowden rang hollow to most Venezuelans, who are by now used to the government spying on opposition leaders, journalists and even their own loyalists. Not only does the government routinely record their phone conversations, it broadcasts them on government-owned TV channels.
MjolnirTime
(1,800 posts)Romulus Quirinus
(524 posts)MjolnirTime
(1,800 posts)Don't you think?
Cleita
(75,480 posts)He will be free to live his life without being imprisoned or tortured. However, he will be closely monitored. It's better than what will happen to him here under espionage charges.
CakeGrrl
(10,611 posts)Is this not what he supposedly stole data to warn the American people about?
This will be high karmic irony indeed.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)I have said I don't approve of what he did, but I don't want him to face the consequences we will hand to him. We have become a totalitarian nation in how we deal with those who fall afoul of our laws or perceived laws. We have become a police state that tortures and abuses prisoners for profit and that conducts surveillance of all kinds for profit.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)CakeGrrl
(10,611 posts)And surrounded himself with enough publicity to keep a light on him if torture is what he feared.
But there's no basis for the torture assumption other than his speculation.
He ran because he didn't want to face consequences, and now his "reward" could be living under TRUE surveillance.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Johnny Cochrans or other famous defense lawyers lining up to defend him.
CakeGrrl
(10,611 posts)his wrongdoing was so toxic that no one wants the case. But lawyers defend accused murderers, so I'm skeptical that some opportunistic attorneys out there wouldn't want to step up to the challenge.
That's why this situation is so sketchy to me - all based on what MIGHT happen, what COULD happen.
I just wonder how long it will take him to do a cost/benefit analysis of facing what he did and doing time in the U.S. compared to living in exile, under surveillance, with DOJ charges forever hanging over him?
Cleita
(75,480 posts)KharmaTrain
(31,706 posts)Fein said he was attempting to work with the Department of Justice of creating information directly to Mr. Edward Snowden that would enable him to make an intelligent decision of whats available back in the United States with regard to due process. The conditions that Fein laid out in a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder include that Snowden wont be detained before trial, that he wouldnt be subject to a gag order and that the trial would occur in a venue of Snowdens choice. Fein said he had not yet heard back from the Justice Department but stressed that these are not ultimatums but rather conditions that Lonnie Snowden believes will encourage his son to return to the U.S.
Sure sounds like Snowden's got some pretty solid representation already at work...
Cleita
(75,480 posts)the time of day? If I were Eddie, I would be smelling a trap. As far as the "conditions" I can see Eric Holder laughing his ass off.
KharmaTrain
(31,706 posts)When I googled to get info on Fein I came up with a ton of links to Paulbot sites...so you decide from there.
Fein is well-known inside the beltway and here's some goodies from his wiki:
In March 2007,he founded the American Freedom Agenda with Bob Barr, David Keene and Richard Viguerie.[11][12] Notable published writings by Fein include articles advocating the impeachment of former U.S. presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, and former U.S. Vice-President Dick Cheney.
On September 2, 2008, Fein addressed Ron Paul's "Rally For The Republic" in Minneapolis, offering a critique of the Bush administration's interventionist policy and advocating a more non-interventionist foreign policy. Fein also harshly criticized the anti-terror policies of the Bush White House, including wiretapping and detention of terror suspects. In April 2009, Fein criticized President Barack Obama for declining to prosecute Bush administration officials for composing CIA memos justifying torture during interrogations.[13]
In 2011, Fein proposed impeaching President Barack Obama in connection with the 2011 military intervention in Libya.[14][15]
Sure sounds like he's trying to work a deal with Holder to make sure Edward is treated very fairly...sorry no Gitmo...and would spearhead a defense that I'm sure would be used to expose the excesses of the NSA, Booz-Allen and abuses of the FISA laws. I see Holder trying to work a deal here to bring young Snowden to justice...and then let a jury of peers decide if he's a "whistleblower" or "traitor"...
treestar
(82,383 posts)That will be national news. Of course there will be Cochran-like types lining up to be Saviors of the Constitution.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage_Act_of_1917
Unless they want to make an example of him. But he does have support, so I figure it will be routine.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)he faces life. Or worse.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)Any fugitive is 'better off' not being in prison for their crimes.
[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]The truth doesnt always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one youre already in.[/center][/font]
[hr]
treestar
(82,383 posts)He better check to see if their criminal procedure laws are up to par.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)will no doubt be handed some protocols as to what he can and can't do. Also, now that he is famous, he will have the normal lack of privacy famous people are subjected to until the world moves on to the next shiny object.
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)This was after he allegedly asked Russia for asylum. I wonder if Snowden would accept any protocols.
(I say allegedly because I don't trust Russia's communications at all about this story. Snowden hasn't been seen or heard from for weeks.)
Cleita
(75,480 posts)the Moscow airport have left. A father told his son he would give him some money if he got a photo of him. If he were there, even if locked in security in the transit area wouldn't someone, a hotel maid maybe have tried to smuggle out a photo of him?
MADem
(135,425 posts)Assuming he doesn't commit any crimes while in VZ.
It would not surprise me if, assuming an eventual change in leadership, someone from the opposition handed the guy over....and it would also not surprise me if someone from Maduro's own party, say, someone from the ARMY, who was once close to Hugo, made a move, shoved Maduro aside, and worked a deal to trade Snowden for a dial-down of the war of words and maybe a bit of basic financial aid to mitigate the problem they are having with basic foodstuffs and essential shortages.
Number23
(24,544 posts)CakeGrrl
(10,611 posts)"Just get AWAY from the evil Obama empire!!!"
...and be eavesdropped on for REAL.
In a country whose politics you despise.
When is his flight?
Number23
(24,544 posts)LOL!! I said the same thing when folks were wetting their pants with glee when Venezuela offered him asylum.
My exact words were "see ya Eddie! I know you'll be in good company soon!" but I edited out the second bit because it was one of those really special threads full of lots of really special people.
I lost all interest in this topic on DU when the same people so up in arms over this wept when he fled to China, then Russia. Then when he was was offered asylum by Venezuela and those same people screamed in glee all I could do was laugh my ass off.
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)The same person who tweeted that Boingboing article works with Greenwald, Ellsberg at their press freedom foundation.
Took them a while to point it out, they knew if they didn't it would backfire on them big time.
apples and oranges
(1,451 posts)Need anyone say more?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)are implying that Snowden is no better off there than in the USofA. Tell me if I guessed wrong on your elusive point.
I might point out that however bad Venezuela is, they probably wont torture him. To your disappointment I am sure.
Authoritarians must have whistle-blowers punished severely.
I choose democracy. What system do you choose?
CakeGrrl
(10,611 posts)You choose to believe it's a foregone conclusion, but that is also an opinion.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)free world believes what we are doing is torture. Force feeding is torture.
Also, Manning was tortured. Hello. Yes the USofA tortured Manning.
But I am guessing that you want to define torture as something else, to rationalize that our country would never do such a thing.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)sit there and as an example, try to argue that Waterboarding is not torture.
randome
(34,845 posts)Snowden is an American citizen accused of espionage. He doesn't face anything more complicated than a trial.
[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]The truth doesnt always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one youre already in.[/center][/font]
[hr]
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)really makes it all fine. Obviously he now has nothing to fear.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)in the United States of America.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)rise to torture. He would likely be in solitary much of his life.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)kenny blankenship
(15,689 posts)he would never come out again. The US attys would see to it that he was charged with as many counts of espionage as the documents proved to be in his possession.
from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence
"A former ADX warden described the place as "a cleaner version of Hell."
Death is preferable by far.
treestar
(82,383 posts)That claim is just ridiculous - they keep thinking repetition of it will make it true or likely.
frylock
(34,825 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Thank you.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)He chooses China, Russia and now Venezuela.
The point you find so difficult to find concerns irony/hypocrisy of a supposedly freedom-loving whistleblower getting asylum and support from a country that is much worse in exactly the kinds of undemocratic surveillance that Snowden is complaining about. Was that so hard?
Or are you just a troll.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)again.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)where you belong.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)that. Just because you get to choose between two candidates chosen by the Oligarch Cabal, doesnt mean you live in a democracy.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)trying to kill him. You do know that he actually said the US might send Chinese triad assassins to get him, don't you? You do know that most of his supposed revelations have been baloney, don't you?
If he was what he claimed to be, he would have released the docs and face the consequences, as in civil disobedience. Instead he fled like a crook to the world's largest police state.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)the Oligarchs and you side with the Oligarchs. You look the other way when they break the law. But if someone dares expose their law breaking, you want them silenced. And I dont give a crap about anything he says or has said at this point. He is one of many now that have opened the door on the authoritarian spy state.
By the way "the world's largest police state. " is the USofA.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)And your ignorance. Go learn just a little about life in China, life in a place which uses the death penalty at the drop of a hat, life in a true surveillance state, life in a place where the government has murdered tens of thousands for practicing an unapproved religion: http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/china/report-2008
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_gong#Suppression
But thanks for showing the character of at least some knee-jerk Snowden supporters
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)authoritarian state.
If you are going to call me ignorant then obviously you dont want a decent discussion. Goodbye.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)in juvenile persecution complexes.
BenzoDia
(1,010 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)He isnt obligated to prove anything. If I called the police and told them that I thought my neighbors house was being robbed and they came out and investigated. Except for possibly testifying, my job is done. It's up to the police and prosecutor to gather evidence and prove the perps guilty or not.
Seems some dont want to know the truth. Assassinating the character of the messenger to detract from the main issue is not a character of an open-minded Democrat.
randome
(34,845 posts)In this case, it's up to S&G to show evidence to support their claims. They have not.
They are obligated to do more than talk.
[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]The truth doesnt always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one youre already in.[/center][/font]
[hr]
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)see if Snowden is lying, not assume it. Dare to be open-minded. Your government may not be as sweet as you desire.
randome
(34,845 posts)But there is a bureaucratic maze of safeguards and restrictions in place at the NSA.
S&G never mention those because they want to present only one side of the story.
Carl Bernstein said it sounds to him from what's been released that those safeguards and restrictions are good. I agree with him.
That has nothing to do with pressing for more transparency and less secrecy at the NSA.
But when some yahoo makes claims without evidence then runs off to Hong Kong and gives away national security data, I can understand the government wanting to stop that guy first.
[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]The truth doesnt always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one youre already in.[/center][/font]
[hr]
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)That's a load of crap and I think you know it. We've gone thru how lax these "safeguards" are. In any case we need to evaluate those safeguards. Dont you agree?
Where did you get the information that Snowden gave away USofA secrets?
randome
(34,845 posts)And you know the Hong Kong journalists said they were shown IP addresses and hacking methods.
If I wasn't busy donating platelets right now, I'd look up that reference again.
But I guess you can't believe everything you read, right? Neither can you believe everything Snowden says.
[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font]
[hr]
morningfog
(18,115 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)The ones showing that data is obtained by the FBI and then transferred to the NSA upon receipt of a legal warrant?
The ones showing 4 levels of approval before anything can be done?
[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font]
[hr]
baldguy
(36,649 posts)The ones he has released but which don't say what he thought they said.
randome
(34,845 posts)Show us some evidence, people, and I'll believe just about anything.
[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font]
[hr]
CakeGrrl
(10,611 posts)It doesn't seem so.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)That's why you can be arrested for filing a false police report, making false accusations, and perjury.
So far, everyone's been running around hysterically screaming "NSA! SPYING! NSA! SPYING! NSA! SPYING! NSA! SPYING! NSA! SPYING!" merely because of Snowden's accusations, when the NSA was doing nothing of the sort. The only "proof" Snowden has offered to support his accusations shows the NSA was NOT spying, and was in fact following the law. I think the fact that he has fled from the US to some of the most repressive countries existing today is indicative of his character & his values.
How is promoting the lies of Snowden to the exclusion of the truth a Democratic value? How is ignoring his character a Democratic value? How is attacking anyone who raises questions about him a Democratic value?
Isn't this the type of shit the Republicans & Tea Baggers have been doing? Andrew Breitbart? James O'Keefe? Glenn Beck? Have you ever heard of those people?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)asking for investigations. If someone reports that a bank has been robbed and then leaves town, your side would spend your energy hunting down the "someone" and ignoring the bank. Go figure out if the bank has really been robbed. The door is open, the safe is open, sure looks like something is wrong. But you want to hunt down the citizen and punish them severely to frighten others from similar actions. Big Brother must love you.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Sums it up quite well.
kenny blankenship
(15,689 posts)James Clapper did it 14 times.
Let's see if the government takes all serious crime seriously. I'm sure Holder knows where to find Director Clapper.
Cha
(297,274 posts)be why Ed hasn't called Venezuela back? Or has he? .. I've been away from Snowbird most of the day so anything could have happened.
thanks uhnope
allin99
(894 posts)DCBob
(24,689 posts)if he does anything similar in VZ that he did here.. he's probably summarily executed.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)if Snowden, as his supporters believe, did the country a great service, he would have had a much stronger case by staying and facing the consequences. The debate would have remained focused on the NSA's domestic program.
William Binney, Thomas Drake, and Thomas Tamm are whistleblowers who stayed and faced the consequences of their actions. They were not persecuted, they faced prosecution. They are not in jail. In fact, Tamm was the one who exposed Bush's illegal eavesdropping on Americans.
Remember whistleblower Thomas Tamm?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023032225
Even in a worse-case scenario, Snowden would likely have been released on bail:
The indictment, dated Aug. 19 and unsealed on Friday, named Stephen Jin-Woo Kim, 43, of McLean, Va., a specialist in nuclear proliferation who worked as a contractor for the State Department. Mr. Kim, who has worked as a high-level foreign affairs analyst for a decade for various federal agencies, is accused of disclosing the information in June 2009 and of lying to the F.B.I. in September 2009.
Mr. Kim, an American citizen, pleaded not guilty on Friday in Federal District Court before Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly and was released on $100,000 bond.
- more -
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/28/world/americas/28leak.html
UTUSN
(70,700 posts)DCBob
(24,689 posts)so he doenst hack into their secret network and spill the beans on who knows whats going on there.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)If this is his lesser of all evils, the alternative could be far worse than has yet been described
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)kenny blankenship
(15,689 posts)And of course he also knows that in Venezuela, his communications will also be scooped up by the US, along with those of everyone else.
dkf
(37,305 posts)CakeGrrl
(10,611 posts)Situational outrage over that concept, it appears.