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xchrom

(108,903 posts)
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 07:17 AM Jul 2013

Shocker: Only 1% of So Called Terrorists Nabbed by the FBI Were Real

http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/fbis-terror-scam



***SNIP


Aaronson recently appeared on the AlterNet Radio Hour. Below is a lightly edited transcript of the discussion.

Joshua Holland: Trevor, the raw statistical data say that Americans have a significantly better chance of being struck dead by lightning than of being killed in a terrorist attack here at home. It’s obviously different for people in some other countries.

I got that from the official terrorism statistics put out by the FBI and other related agencies. And they also track foiled attacks. These law enforcement agencies say that these foiled attacks prove that they are saving American lives. How would you respond to that?

Trevor Aaronson: I’d say that the majority of the foiled attacks that they cite are really only foiled attacks because the FBI made the attack possible, and most of the people who are caught in these so-called foiled attacks are caught through sting operations that use either an undercover FBI agent or informant posing as some sort of Al-Qaeda operative.

In all of these cases, the defendants, or the would-be terrorists, are people who at best have a vague idea that they want to commit some sort of violent act or some sort of act of terrorism but have no means on their own. They don’t have weapons. They don’t have connections with any international terrorist groups.


In many cases they’re mentally ill or they’re economically desperate. An undercover informant or agent posing as an Al-Qaeda operative gives them everything they need… gives them the transportation, gives them the money if they need it, and then gives them the bomb and even the idea for the terrorist attack. And then when that person pushes a button to detonate the bomb that they believe will explode—a bomb that was provided to them in whole by the FBI—agents rush in, arrest them and charge them with conspiracy to use a weapon of mass destruction and then parade that person out to the public saying, "Look at us. We caught a terrorist. This is us keeping you safe."
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Shocker: Only 1% of So Called Terrorists Nabbed by the FBI Were Real (Original Post) xchrom Jul 2013 OP
This begs the question ... Are Muslim's being targeted by the FBI? Eddie Haskell Jul 2013 #1
Jackpine Radical Jul 2013 #12
And begs a related question ... Are the gullible being targeted by the politicians? AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #38
But according to one poster here "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" hobbit709 Jul 2013 #2
When you have a terror industry making billions malaise Jul 2013 #60
Let me guess bobduca Jul 2013 #63
Better a thousand innocent persons go to Prison formercia Jul 2013 #3
LOL! +1 Egalitarian Thug Jul 2013 #29
We used to have the philosophy that we had to err on the side of caution n2doc Jul 2013 #4
+1 xchrom Jul 2013 #6
Hell ya...... daleanime Jul 2013 #9
That went out the window with Bush. All bets are off for conservatives when it comes to their gtar100 Jul 2013 #28
^^^^this^^^^ L0oniX Jul 2013 #48
Rolling Stone has had some decent articles about how the FBI truedelphi Jul 2013 #54
Is that an actual statistic or just the guy's opinion? treestar Jul 2013 #5
We don't shrug off 9/11, because we know the Cheney/bu$h administration were warned by multiple RC Jul 2013 #14
I did not agree with the Bush reactions to 911 treestar Jul 2013 #32
The rest of the world offered to help us, US in a police investigation to find the culprits. RC Jul 2013 #45
+1 bushisanidiot Jul 2013 #44
In the United States, a person accused of a crime is in fact innocent until proven otherwise in Bluenorthwest Jul 2013 #20
In entrapped they can use that defense treestar Jul 2013 #33
Oh yes they can. And it has happened. RC Jul 2013 #46
mindset = thought police. L0oniX Jul 2013 #49
These grooming techinques were originally developed for COINTELPRO projects. Ash_F Jul 2013 #27
That might be a question of human psychology treestar Jul 2013 #34
BINGO! MrScorpio Jul 2013 #7
k/r marmar Jul 2013 #8
"nabbed" as opposed to going to priosn? What does this mean? Blacks have been "nabbed" kelliekat44 Jul 2013 #10
question: is this also true for the Boston bombings? temmer Jul 2013 #11
What happened to the unarmed, shot dead, interviewee in Florida that was surrounded by GoneFishin Jul 2013 #19
pssst...careful...you're just entering geek tragedy's "fucking nutjobs" realm temmer Jul 2013 #22
Then I am honored. I've read so many whoppers on why they had to shoot this poor bastard. GoneFishin Jul 2013 #30
Because the FBI often conducts interviews with suspects Maedhros Jul 2013 #52
At best. GoneFishin Jul 2013 #57
My assumption is that they are responding to the supposition that there is a worse motive at work. Maedhros Jul 2013 #59
I see what you mean. GoneFishin Jul 2013 #61
They are working with the ACLU on this, as well. Fawke Em Jul 2013 #31
from what I know the accusation of being the Waltham murderer is disproven temmer Jul 2013 #43
And, he DID plead not guilty. Fawke Em Jul 2013 #62
No, only fucking nutjobs think the Tsarnaevs were acting at the urging of the government. nt geek tragedy Jul 2013 #21
Yep, and only nut jobs would say the emperor is nakid...n/t zeemike Jul 2013 #23
Given your past support for Sandy Hook Trutherism, not surprising that you would say that nt geek tragedy Jul 2013 #25
What a wonderful tool categories are. zeemike Jul 2013 #39
Yep, I've written off permanently anyone who promoted Sandy Hook Trutherism geek tragedy Jul 2013 #40
Then why don't you put me on ignore? zeemike Jul 2013 #42
I don't think the Boston bombing was orchestrated by the CIA/NSA Maedhros Jul 2013 #53
Same thing will happen with the NSA dragnet. Katashi_itto Jul 2013 #13
Seriously. How much longer are we going to tolerate this at a $TRILLION/yr? n/t Catherina Jul 2013 #15
I think MLK in your sig line pretty much sums it up when he used the word snappyturtle Jul 2013 #24
Forever. They will just increase the debt owed by our grand-children, great grand-children, ... AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #37
This Begs The Question - Why Is PRISM Necessary cantbeserious Jul 2013 #16
I've posed that same question and never get any answer. snappyturtle Jul 2013 #26
I Think You Are Right cantbeserious Jul 2013 #47
If a terror wave existed, they would be too busy with real terrorists to cultivate fake ones. GoneFishin Jul 2013 #17
Which 1% are we talking about? Oh, yeah, the Koch class 1%. Got it. nt. Bernardo de La Paz Jul 2013 #18
We have a better chance of being attacked by militarized cops than being attacked by "Terrorists". AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #35
If they started arresting real terrorists, lower Manhattan would look like this... Egalitarian Thug Jul 2013 #36
I am shocked, shocked I tell you! Initech Jul 2013 #41
Red herring. Igel Jul 2013 #50
Be afraid, be very afraid, but rest assured that big brother, by stripping you indepat Jul 2013 #51
That's good enough for Cheney and the neocons! Avalux Jul 2013 #55
Yep. They're foiling all kinds of incompetent, unarmed "terrorists." DirkGently Jul 2013 #56
Ah, but the dollars they gained for their budgets were 100% real kenny blankenship Jul 2013 #58

hobbit709

(41,694 posts)
2. But according to one poster here "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 07:56 AM
Jul 2013

so it's just too bad about that 99%.

n2doc

(47,953 posts)
4. We used to have the philosophy that we had to err on the side of caution
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 08:02 AM
Jul 2013

lest we unjustly incarcerate an innocent person. Or at least that's what I was taught in school. "Innocent until proven guilty " and all that. Now it seems to be "lock them all up, they are all guilty of something" and "better to arrest 100 innocent people and catch 1 guilty one, than to fail to catch that one"


Security state my ass- I feel less secure all the time.

gtar100

(4,192 posts)
28. That went out the window with Bush. All bets are off for conservatives when it comes to their
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 10:03 AM
Jul 2013

favorite boogeyman. In other words, they panic.

In my opinion, though, they really aren't *that* afraid of terrorists. They are just exploiting the issue for their own interests. They use it because it justifies (to themselves) all the other shit they pull that they can't reasonably justify.

It's not the only arrow in their quiver but it is one they can use over and over again so they have a big interest in not losing it.

You are so right - the more security measures they take, the less secure we all seem to be. I feel the same way.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
54. Rolling Stone has had some decent articles about how the FBI
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 06:46 PM
Jul 2013

Targets people with bi-polar disease. The agents y be-friend the person, continually suggest the necessity of bombing this or that target.

If you have ever spent time around someone who is severely bi-polar, you notice tht they vacillate about even leaving the house to go to their own Birthday Party. Butno problem is too large for our wonderful FBI agents. They simply assist the targeted person into leaving the house, arriving at the store, and purchasing whatever is needed for the "terrorist event."

I feel so bad for rhe families of these suspects. And of course, for the suspects themselves. If this amount of time and energy got spent on the families of people with bi-polar disorder, the bi polar patient might become more productive citizens. Instead, the families now have to mortgage their homes and raid their retirement just to keep their adult child out of jail.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
5. Is that an actual statistic or just the guy's opinion?
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 08:05 AM
Jul 2013

Are these people really so innocent? They don't know the person is an FBI agent.

Terrorist attacks have big consequences, so that it's not just saving the apparently few lives. And most Americans are affected by 911, they don't shrug it off as relatively few deaths that are acceptable. Otherwise we wouldn't have people criticizing the FBI over the Boston Bomber.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
14. We don't shrug off 9/11, because we know the Cheney/bu$h administration were warned by multiple
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 08:48 AM
Jul 2013

countries (Egypt and France, to name two) and by a 2½ inch thick report from the out going Clinton Administration that something was going to happen. They even had the date down to within a few days. They just did not know where. Strange that Richard Bruce Cheney was directing war games that duplicated the actions of the real high jackers on the morning of 9/11/2001.
Also strange that we couldn't properly respond to any of the 4 high jacked passenger planes, yet be all over a stolen piper cub, piloted by a teenager from Canada, before the tail assembly crossed the border into the good ol' US of A.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
32. I did not agree with the Bush reactions to 911
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 10:17 AM
Jul 2013

But the country in general did seem to think that the government should "protect us." I do not always agree with that, but the sights of people falling from the burning towers is pretty much with us, and I don't see the public in general really being willing to let the government say well, shit happens, we'll deal with it as a criminal prosecution afterward.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
45. The rest of the world offered to help us, US in a police investigation to find the culprits.
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 11:23 AM
Jul 2013

So you are A-OK with invading a basically defenseless country, that had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 or terrorism, to avenge 9/11, as long as we killed a lot of brown people who lived in the Middle East, to make us feel better about what was in reality, blow back from our Middle East policies?

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
20. In the United States, a person accused of a crime is in fact innocent until proven otherwise in
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 09:09 AM
Jul 2013

a court of law. It seems that part is the part that is lacking, the proving guilt in court. Entrapment and a lack of indictment is not going to keep us safe.
If they are guilty, convict them. If you can't then they are not guilty. That's how it works here.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
33. In entrapped they can use that defense
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 10:18 AM
Jul 2013

It's there to use.

But if someone approaches you to start up a terrorist act and you go along, it shows where your mindset is. Nobody can be counted as innocent who does that. Of course it has to be proved in court - that goes without saying.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
46. Oh yes they can. And it has happened.
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 11:26 AM
Jul 2013

The one who was approached, goes to the authorities and tell them about it. You can have government/law inforcement agencies working against each other, keystone cops style. It has happened.

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
27. These grooming techinques were originally developed for COINTELPRO projects.
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 09:51 AM
Jul 2013

The concept was originally designed to target civil rights activists and progressive groups, including MLK and his supporters. Think about what you are supporting.

The idea is to fish for a subject who is deemed malleable, often necessarily with a low IQ, and to begin subverting them through propaganda. They use subtle, well studied psychological techniques to gradually nudge to person towards criminality. Over period of time, they can be molded into to someone who may be willing to commit crime. When they finally show overt willingness to commit a crime, the officers nab their 'perp'. It is highly unlikely the person would have been willing to do anything without their careful grooming that sometimes takes months. It is especially easy when any person will suffice and they can cast a wide net in order to find a suitable subject. A suitable person is one that does not think for themselves too much, is seeking validation, able to be held emotionally hostage or easily intimidated and not sharp enough to realize that they are being manipulated. This same philosophy is applied in the grooming methods which con artists and sexual predators use for their targets.

It is apt that you bring up the Boston bombing because you inadvertently pointed to a strong case against these techniques regarding how they damage our ability to have an effective police force, which I will detail below.

Why do police like grooming? Because it is easy. Can't find the criminals? Then make your own! In the end, they get articles, kudos and public and political support. The latter being more important in the world of policing than many realize. This results in not only job security and funding, but own their satisfaction of being effective law enforcers. Cops need validation too. But this kind of work is not effective.

The problem is that the time and energy being focused on grooming random subjects, who likely would have gone through life without having ever done anything, could have been focused on following up on leads on real criminals. This was the case in Boston. How often do you read about a violent crime, only to hear that law enforcement previously received tips from the friends, family and acquaintances of the perpetrators? That kind of police work is challenging, and does not guarantee of success.

As with many people, police are tempted to take easy way, even if it is not the smarter one.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
34. That might be a question of human psychology
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 10:20 AM
Jul 2013

that is interesting but not proved. Most people don't like the idea that their minds are not in their control. The cops going to all that trouble? There are real criminals out there. Or all they all mind controlled by some evil being? No one knows, but for now the criminal law does hold a person responsible for their actions absent insanity or entrapment.

 

kelliekat44

(7,759 posts)
10. "nabbed" as opposed to going to priosn? What does this mean? Blacks have been "nabbed"
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 08:37 AM
Jul 2013

Last edited Tue Jul 9, 2013, 09:33 AM - Edit history (1)

all throughout this nation's history, many falsely imprisoned and many released. "In many cases they are mentally ill or economically desperate." Did anyone really care except those involved? So what are we saying here? Is it just the ones falsely accused of being "terrorists" that we should concern ourselves about? Or will we take a deeper look at the arrest and imprisonment situation across the nation on the whole?

 

temmer

(358 posts)
11. question: is this also true for the Boston bombings?
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 08:38 AM
Jul 2013
In all of these cases, the defendants, or the would-be terrorists, are people who at best have a vague idea that they want to commit some sort of violent act or some sort of act of terrorism but have no means on their own. They don’t have weapons. They don’t have connections with any international terrorist groups.



I read the indictment against Dzhohar Tsarnaev. It fails to deliver a motive for hurting his innocent fellow citizens (he was a Bostonian, too). The so-called boat confession is ridiculous.

GoneFishin

(5,217 posts)
19. What happened to the unarmed, shot dead, interviewee in Florida that was surrounded by
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 09:02 AM
Jul 2013

state police and FBI agents?

If the picture of the shirtless guy being put into a cruiser the night the older brother was killed was not in fact the older brother, then who/where is this lookalike?

There should be a mugshot from his arrest. There should be a police log of what this lookalike was being arrested for.

 

temmer

(358 posts)
22. pssst...careful...you're just entering geek tragedy's "fucking nutjobs" realm
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 09:23 AM
Jul 2013

as far as I know, his widow, his family and friends are still waiting for answers from the FBI...

GoneFishin

(5,217 posts)
30. Then I am honored. I've read so many whoppers on why they had to shoot this poor bastard.
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 10:07 AM
Jul 2013

I think the most recent was that he was reaching for a machete or samurai sword or the like.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
52. Because the FBI often conducts interviews with suspects
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 01:42 PM
Jul 2013

in rooms that have deadly weapons lying around.

The explanations provided as to why they had to kill the guy imply that the FBI is incompetent.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
59. My assumption is that they are responding to the supposition that there is a worse motive at work.
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 09:17 PM
Jul 2013

n/t

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
31. They are working with the ACLU on this, as well.
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 10:13 AM
Jul 2013

I have "talked" (electronically) with Ibragim's sister-in-law.

This family is devastated.

In fact, the first thing I thought of when I opened this thread is something my husband (former Army linguist, assigned to the NSA) mentioned when information first started coming out about Tamerlan Tsarnaev's trip to Russia. "He was handled," hubby said. Mr. Fawke Em pointed out that foreign nationals on terrorist watch lists don't just travel to countries with known terrorist camps and back to the US without some sort of Alphabet Security Soup escort.

The little brother's first hearing is tomorrow. It will be interesting to see how he pleads.

 

temmer

(358 posts)
43. from what I know the accusation of being the Waltham murderer is disproven
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 11:09 AM
Jul 2013

because Ibragim was in Atlanta.

He had absolutely nothing to do with the Waltham murders, and with the Boston bombings neither. He was no Islamist and no drug dealer either.

He just was so unlucky to have an acquaintance with Tamerlan Tsarnaev. That's all. Absolutely outraging.

Somehow it looks to me the FBI desperately needed material for the indictment of the little brother (which is really weak). I bet he will not plead guilty.


Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
62. And, he DID plead not guilty.
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 01:14 AM
Jul 2013

I'm going to guess that Jahar (the little brother) and his attorneys will put on a case, unless that get a helluva plea, that shows that the younger brother was manipulated and frightened by his older brother.

Hell, if I'd known my brother killed his best friend, why wouldn't I expect he'd kill me, too, if I didn't go along with his heinous plans?

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
39. What a wonderful tool categories are.
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 10:49 AM
Jul 2013

Create a category, put some one in it...boom they are dismissed.
And there is no limit to how many categories or lists that can be created...only limited by your imagination.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
40. Yep, I've written off permanently anyone who promoted Sandy Hook Trutherism
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 10:49 AM
Jul 2013

A rule that serves me very well.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
42. Then why don't you put me on ignore?
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 10:57 AM
Jul 2013

Because if you think I am going to defend myself for your ridiculous charges you are mistaken...It is the only way to defeat McCarthyism...refuse to play the game.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
53. I don't think the Boston bombing was orchestrated by the CIA/NSA
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 01:52 PM
Jul 2013

However, it does put the lie to the claim that the NSA surveillance program and other intrusive security measures are in place "to protect us from the Terrorists."

The Tsarnaevs were rank amateurs. They left a digital trail a mile wide that, supposedly, PRISM and all its associated programs should have filtered right to the top. They traveled to foreign destinations that are on the enhanced scrutiny list. Russian authorities even told us point-blank that these guys were involved in something serious. And the FBI still fucked it up. What did they need - a memo to the President stating "Tsarnaev Determined to Strike in US?"

If the security/surveillance apparatus were indeed in place to detect "terrorists" then it would be hard to find a more apt example of a preventable plot than that of the Tsarnaevs. But the apparatus isn't there to protect us from "terrorists." It's there to protect the 1% from the rest of us.

 

Katashi_itto

(10,175 posts)
13. Same thing will happen with the NSA dragnet.
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 08:47 AM
Jul 2013

It has to justify it's expense. This money being poured into the operation will need to find enemies. If there arent any it will manufacture them.

snappyturtle

(14,656 posts)
24. I think MLK in your sig line pretty much sums it up when he used the word
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 09:38 AM
Jul 2013

Last edited Tue Jul 9, 2013, 12:24 PM - Edit history (1)

"incapable".

Wouldn't you like to know what our economy would look like if we removed the defense and
"security" jobs? I'm not advocating elimination of either but great cutting of funding. If the money were instead used to make the planet a better place....ahhh....I know. I'm dreaming.

edit: spelling

snappyturtle

(14,656 posts)
26. I've posed that same question and never get any answer.
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 09:42 AM
Jul 2013

I think it's simply that TPTB want to keep us in fear to advance their greed and other agendas.

GoneFishin

(5,217 posts)
17. If a terror wave existed, they would be too busy with real terrorists to cultivate fake ones.
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 08:53 AM
Jul 2013

They are a multi-billion dollar hammer desperately looking for anything that might be confused for a nail.

Igel

(35,317 posts)
50. Red herring.
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 01:04 PM
Jul 2013

Most of the "terrorists" caught by the FBI weren't terrorists, they were conspirators with the avowed intent to commit terrorism.

By definition, if you nab the conspirators you aren't nabbing terrorists. But the intent of the programs aren't to nab terrorists, i.e., those who have committed terrorist acts. They're preventive. In other words, saying that only 1% of those caught were actual terrorists could be interpreted as high praise

It's the same catch-22 with the idea of arming people to prevent mass shootings. "Show me a mass shooting that was prevented!" we hear. If I can show you a mass shooting, then it wasn't prevented, now was it? If I show you where somebody gunned down somebody carrying a gun and ammo, I can claim until I'm blue in the face that it prevented a mass shooting but the counterclaim is simple: "Prove that this guy really would have killed a lot of people."


As for entrapment, it's a question of odds. If you're casting around for a while trying to find some conspirators to blow up the Mall, sure, there's a good chance the feds will eventually find you and nab you. Then again, there's a good chance that somebody into planning this kind of thing will find you and nab you. It's also true that if you find nobody to help you might manage to do something on your own, unassisted. Or fail miserably, and give up on the plans to commit mass murder. Anything's possible. But it's not reasonable to assume that there are only two options--the FBI luring you into a conspiracy and giving up because the effort's futile. We have some non-extremist attacks that show lone wolves can kill just fine, thank you, without either the FBI's assistance or abandoning the plans.

It's likely that the Tsarnaevs were helped in some way--sheltered, mentored, guided, assisted. In other words, by the going definition here, "entrapped." Even if it was their idea. Which would make them innocent until the moment they actually killed somebody? Uh, no. It's a free country, and more than one or two days' conspiracy would be required. In a lot of cases the would-be terrorists were arrested after they had picked up the fake bomb or had done stuff which, had all the materials been real, become dangerous. That's more than just luring somebody. It's rather a pity that the FBI/etc. didn't manage to "entrap" the Tsarnaevs. But if there's browbeating involved, cajoling of a serious nature, then the courts would through the case out and the agents know it. Does that kind of entrapment happen? Sure. Agents get overzealous, and then the courts, if they're doing their job, toss the evidence or dismiss the case.

We don't like the tool. So it's a given that we'd like to show that it's ineffective *and* not necessary in the first place. A bonus would be to show that not only is it ineffective and unnecssary, but that it's also immoral because it has an immoral use. In this case, there was a need, a use, and it found a tool. However it's also typically true that tools find uses. The temptation is to use the flat-head screwdriver as a chisel, as a hammer, as an awl, as a lever, right? Heck, I've used one as a can opener and bottle opener. But there have been those who have found a screwdriver useful as a murder weapon. The difficulty is keeping the tool from finding other uses, not in trying to make the screwdriver out to be unnecessary and ineffective so therefore not only something we have no need for but even something that's immoral. (Note that this is the gun-control argumentation of choice these days.)

Let's regulate some of that government.

indepat

(20,899 posts)
51. Be afraid, be very afraid, but rest assured that big brother, by stripping you
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 01:14 PM
Jul 2013

of your constitutionally-protected liberties, will keep you safe from terraists, all the while doing little or nothing to protect you from the rampant carnage created by wanton gun violence.

kenny blankenship

(15,689 posts)
58. Ah, but the dollars they gained for their budgets were 100% real
Tue Jul 9, 2013, 09:07 PM
Jul 2013

good luck getting that dough back again, or your civil liberties.

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