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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsShocker: Only 1% of So Called Terrorists Nabbed by the FBI Were Real
http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/fbis-terror-scam***SNIP
Aaronson recently appeared on the AlterNet Radio Hour. Below is a lightly edited transcript of the discussion.
Joshua Holland: Trevor, the raw statistical data say that Americans have a significantly better chance of being struck dead by lightning than of being killed in a terrorist attack here at home. Its obviously different for people in some other countries.
I got that from the official terrorism statistics put out by the FBI and other related agencies. And they also track foiled attacks. These law enforcement agencies say that these foiled attacks prove that they are saving American lives. How would you respond to that?
Trevor Aaronson: Id say that the majority of the foiled attacks that they cite are really only foiled attacks because the FBI made the attack possible, and most of the people who are caught in these so-called foiled attacks are caught through sting operations that use either an undercover FBI agent or informant posing as some sort of Al-Qaeda operative.
In all of these cases, the defendants, or the would-be terrorists, are people who at best have a vague idea that they want to commit some sort of violent act or some sort of act of terrorism but have no means on their own. They dont have weapons. They dont have connections with any international terrorist groups.
In many cases theyre mentally ill or theyre economically desperate. An undercover informant or agent posing as an Al-Qaeda operative gives them everything they need gives them the transportation, gives them the money if they need it, and then gives them the bomb and even the idea for the terrorist attack. And then when that person pushes a button to detonate the bomb that they believe will explodea bomb that was provided to them in whole by the FBIagents rush in, arrest them and charge them with conspiracy to use a weapon of mass destruction and then parade that person out to the public saying, "Look at us. We caught a terrorist. This is us keeping you safe."
Eddie Haskell
(1,628 posts)Is there such a thing as sting bias?
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)hobbit709
(41,694 posts)so it's just too bad about that 99%.
malaise
(269,038 posts)you have to find terrorists to keep it going
bobduca
(1,763 posts)they were posting long technical explanations of NSA wiretaps of phone systems?
formercia
(18,479 posts)rather than let one Terrorist succeed.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)n2doc
(47,953 posts)lest we unjustly incarcerate an innocent person. Or at least that's what I was taught in school. "Innocent until proven guilty " and all that. Now it seems to be "lock them all up, they are all guilty of something" and "better to arrest 100 innocent people and catch 1 guilty one, than to fail to catch that one"
Security state my ass- I feel less secure all the time.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)gtar100
(4,192 posts)favorite boogeyman. In other words, they panic.
In my opinion, though, they really aren't *that* afraid of terrorists. They are just exploiting the issue for their own interests. They use it because it justifies (to themselves) all the other shit they pull that they can't reasonably justify.
It's not the only arrow in their quiver but it is one they can use over and over again so they have a big interest in not losing it.
You are so right - the more security measures they take, the less secure we all seem to be. I feel the same way.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Targets people with bi-polar disease. The agents y be-friend the person, continually suggest the necessity of bombing this or that target.
If you have ever spent time around someone who is severely bi-polar, you notice tht they vacillate about even leaving the house to go to their own Birthday Party. Butno problem is too large for our wonderful FBI agents. They simply assist the targeted person into leaving the house, arriving at the store, and purchasing whatever is needed for the "terrorist event."
I feel so bad for rhe families of these suspects. And of course, for the suspects themselves. If this amount of time and energy got spent on the families of people with bi-polar disorder, the bi polar patient might become more productive citizens. Instead, the families now have to mortgage their homes and raid their retirement just to keep their adult child out of jail.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Are these people really so innocent? They don't know the person is an FBI agent.
Terrorist attacks have big consequences, so that it's not just saving the apparently few lives. And most Americans are affected by 911, they don't shrug it off as relatively few deaths that are acceptable. Otherwise we wouldn't have people criticizing the FBI over the Boston Bomber.
RC
(25,592 posts)countries (Egypt and France, to name two) and by a 2½ inch thick report from the out going Clinton Administration that something was going to happen. They even had the date down to within a few days. They just did not know where. Strange that Richard Bruce Cheney was directing war games that duplicated the actions of the real high jackers on the morning of 9/11/2001.
Also strange that we couldn't properly respond to any of the 4 high jacked passenger planes, yet be all over a stolen piper cub, piloted by a teenager from Canada, before the tail assembly crossed the border into the good ol' US of A.
treestar
(82,383 posts)But the country in general did seem to think that the government should "protect us." I do not always agree with that, but the sights of people falling from the burning towers is pretty much with us, and I don't see the public in general really being willing to let the government say well, shit happens, we'll deal with it as a criminal prosecution afterward.
RC
(25,592 posts)So you are A-OK with invading a basically defenseless country, that had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 or terrorism, to avenge 9/11, as long as we killed a lot of brown people who lived in the Middle East, to make us feel better about what was in reality, blow back from our Middle East policies?
i still don't 'think the events of 9/11 were investigated thoroughly enough.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)a court of law. It seems that part is the part that is lacking, the proving guilt in court. Entrapment and a lack of indictment is not going to keep us safe.
If they are guilty, convict them. If you can't then they are not guilty. That's how it works here.
treestar
(82,383 posts)It's there to use.
But if someone approaches you to start up a terrorist act and you go along, it shows where your mindset is. Nobody can be counted as innocent who does that. Of course it has to be proved in court - that goes without saying.
RC
(25,592 posts)The one who was approached, goes to the authorities and tell them about it. You can have government/law inforcement agencies working against each other, keystone cops style. It has happened.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Ash_F
(5,861 posts)The concept was originally designed to target civil rights activists and progressive groups, including MLK and his supporters. Think about what you are supporting.
The idea is to fish for a subject who is deemed malleable, often necessarily with a low IQ, and to begin subverting them through propaganda. They use subtle, well studied psychological techniques to gradually nudge to person towards criminality. Over period of time, they can be molded into to someone who may be willing to commit crime. When they finally show overt willingness to commit a crime, the officers nab their 'perp'. It is highly unlikely the person would have been willing to do anything without their careful grooming that sometimes takes months. It is especially easy when any person will suffice and they can cast a wide net in order to find a suitable subject. A suitable person is one that does not think for themselves too much, is seeking validation, able to be held emotionally hostage or easily intimidated and not sharp enough to realize that they are being manipulated. This same philosophy is applied in the grooming methods which con artists and sexual predators use for their targets.
It is apt that you bring up the Boston bombing because you inadvertently pointed to a strong case against these techniques regarding how they damage our ability to have an effective police force, which I will detail below.
Why do police like grooming? Because it is easy. Can't find the criminals? Then make your own! In the end, they get articles, kudos and public and political support. The latter being more important in the world of policing than many realize. This results in not only job security and funding, but own their satisfaction of being effective law enforcers. Cops need validation too. But this kind of work is not effective.
The problem is that the time and energy being focused on grooming random subjects, who likely would have gone through life without having ever done anything, could have been focused on following up on leads on real criminals. This was the case in Boston. How often do you read about a violent crime, only to hear that law enforcement previously received tips from the friends, family and acquaintances of the perpetrators? That kind of police work is challenging, and does not guarantee of success.
As with many people, police are tempted to take easy way, even if it is not the smarter one.
treestar
(82,383 posts)that is interesting but not proved. Most people don't like the idea that their minds are not in their control. The cops going to all that trouble? There are real criminals out there. Or all they all mind controlled by some evil being? No one knows, but for now the criminal law does hold a person responsible for their actions absent insanity or entrapment.
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)We all know how the FBI operates.
COINTELPRO was never really ended, just repackaged.
kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)Last edited Tue Jul 9, 2013, 09:33 AM - Edit history (1)
all throughout this nation's history, many falsely imprisoned and many released. "In many cases they are mentally ill or economically desperate." Did anyone really care except those involved? So what are we saying here? Is it just the ones falsely accused of being "terrorists" that we should concern ourselves about? Or will we take a deeper look at the arrest and imprisonment situation across the nation on the whole?
temmer
(358 posts)I read the indictment against Dzhohar Tsarnaev. It fails to deliver a motive for hurting his innocent fellow citizens (he was a Bostonian, too). The so-called boat confession is ridiculous.
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)state police and FBI agents?
If the picture of the shirtless guy being put into a cruiser the night the older brother was killed was not in fact the older brother, then who/where is this lookalike?
There should be a mugshot from his arrest. There should be a police log of what this lookalike was being arrested for.
temmer
(358 posts)as far as I know, his widow, his family and friends are still waiting for answers from the FBI...
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)I think the most recent was that he was reaching for a machete or samurai sword or the like.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)in rooms that have deadly weapons lying around.
The explanations provided as to why they had to kill the guy imply that the FBI is incompetent.
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)n/t
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)I have "talked" (electronically) with Ibragim's sister-in-law.
This family is devastated.
In fact, the first thing I thought of when I opened this thread is something my husband (former Army linguist, assigned to the NSA) mentioned when information first started coming out about Tamerlan Tsarnaev's trip to Russia. "He was handled," hubby said. Mr. Fawke Em pointed out that foreign nationals on terrorist watch lists don't just travel to countries with known terrorist camps and back to the US without some sort of Alphabet Security Soup escort.
The little brother's first hearing is tomorrow. It will be interesting to see how he pleads.
temmer
(358 posts)because Ibragim was in Atlanta.
He had absolutely nothing to do with the Waltham murders, and with the Boston bombings neither. He was no Islamist and no drug dealer either.
He just was so unlucky to have an acquaintance with Tamerlan Tsarnaev. That's all. Absolutely outraging.
Somehow it looks to me the FBI desperately needed material for the indictment of the little brother (which is really weak). I bet he will not plead guilty.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)I'm going to guess that Jahar (the little brother) and his attorneys will put on a case, unless that get a helluva plea, that shows that the younger brother was manipulated and frightened by his older brother.
Hell, if I'd known my brother killed his best friend, why wouldn't I expect he'd kill me, too, if I didn't go along with his heinous plans?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)zeemike
(18,998 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)zeemike
(18,998 posts)Create a category, put some one in it...boom they are dismissed.
And there is no limit to how many categories or lists that can be created...only limited by your imagination.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)A rule that serves me very well.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)Because if you think I am going to defend myself for your ridiculous charges you are mistaken...It is the only way to defeat McCarthyism...refuse to play the game.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)However, it does put the lie to the claim that the NSA surveillance program and other intrusive security measures are in place "to protect us from the Terrorists."
The Tsarnaevs were rank amateurs. They left a digital trail a mile wide that, supposedly, PRISM and all its associated programs should have filtered right to the top. They traveled to foreign destinations that are on the enhanced scrutiny list. Russian authorities even told us point-blank that these guys were involved in something serious. And the FBI still fucked it up. What did they need - a memo to the President stating "Tsarnaev Determined to Strike in US?"
If the security/surveillance apparatus were indeed in place to detect "terrorists" then it would be hard to find a more apt example of a preventable plot than that of the Tsarnaevs. But the apparatus isn't there to protect us from "terrorists." It's there to protect the 1% from the rest of us.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)It has to justify it's expense. This money being poured into the operation will need to find enemies. If there arent any it will manufacture them.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)Last edited Tue Jul 9, 2013, 12:24 PM - Edit history (1)
"incapable".
Wouldn't you like to know what our economy would look like if we removed the defense and
"security" jobs? I'm not advocating elimination of either but great cutting of funding. If the money were instead used to make the planet a better place....ahhh....I know. I'm dreaming.
edit: spelling
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)I think it's simply that TPTB want to keep us in fear to advance their greed and other agendas.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)They are a multi-billion dollar hammer desperately looking for anything that might be confused for a nail.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,002 posts)AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Initech
(100,080 posts)Igel
(35,317 posts)Most of the "terrorists" caught by the FBI weren't terrorists, they were conspirators with the avowed intent to commit terrorism.
By definition, if you nab the conspirators you aren't nabbing terrorists. But the intent of the programs aren't to nab terrorists, i.e., those who have committed terrorist acts. They're preventive. In other words, saying that only 1% of those caught were actual terrorists could be interpreted as high praise
It's the same catch-22 with the idea of arming people to prevent mass shootings. "Show me a mass shooting that was prevented!" we hear. If I can show you a mass shooting, then it wasn't prevented, now was it? If I show you where somebody gunned down somebody carrying a gun and ammo, I can claim until I'm blue in the face that it prevented a mass shooting but the counterclaim is simple: "Prove that this guy really would have killed a lot of people."
As for entrapment, it's a question of odds. If you're casting around for a while trying to find some conspirators to blow up the Mall, sure, there's a good chance the feds will eventually find you and nab you. Then again, there's a good chance that somebody into planning this kind of thing will find you and nab you. It's also true that if you find nobody to help you might manage to do something on your own, unassisted. Or fail miserably, and give up on the plans to commit mass murder. Anything's possible. But it's not reasonable to assume that there are only two options--the FBI luring you into a conspiracy and giving up because the effort's futile. We have some non-extremist attacks that show lone wolves can kill just fine, thank you, without either the FBI's assistance or abandoning the plans.
It's likely that the Tsarnaevs were helped in some way--sheltered, mentored, guided, assisted. In other words, by the going definition here, "entrapped." Even if it was their idea. Which would make them innocent until the moment they actually killed somebody? Uh, no. It's a free country, and more than one or two days' conspiracy would be required. In a lot of cases the would-be terrorists were arrested after they had picked up the fake bomb or had done stuff which, had all the materials been real, become dangerous. That's more than just luring somebody. It's rather a pity that the FBI/etc. didn't manage to "entrap" the Tsarnaevs. But if there's browbeating involved, cajoling of a serious nature, then the courts would through the case out and the agents know it. Does that kind of entrapment happen? Sure. Agents get overzealous, and then the courts, if they're doing their job, toss the evidence or dismiss the case.
We don't like the tool. So it's a given that we'd like to show that it's ineffective *and* not necessary in the first place. A bonus would be to show that not only is it ineffective and unnecssary, but that it's also immoral because it has an immoral use. In this case, there was a need, a use, and it found a tool. However it's also typically true that tools find uses. The temptation is to use the flat-head screwdriver as a chisel, as a hammer, as an awl, as a lever, right? Heck, I've used one as a can opener and bottle opener. But there have been those who have found a screwdriver useful as a murder weapon. The difficulty is keeping the tool from finding other uses, not in trying to make the screwdriver out to be unnecessary and ineffective so therefore not only something we have no need for but even something that's immoral. (Note that this is the gun-control argumentation of choice these days.)
Let's regulate some of that government.
indepat
(20,899 posts)of your constitutionally-protected liberties, will keep you safe from terraists, all the while doing little or nothing to protect you from the rampant carnage created by wanton gun violence.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)DirkGently
(12,151 posts)kenny blankenship
(15,689 posts)good luck getting that dough back again, or your civil liberties.