Unpaid Internships could be ruled illegal - if so, it will be long overdue!

[reformist2]

This has become a real problem in many industries, and something a lot of DU'ers should get behind.

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Unpaid Interns and the Law

LAW prof on the hazards and legalities of working for free

The days of unpaid interns doing anything from getting coffee to writing for the company’s blog may be numbered. Three recent lawsuits filed by former interns target employers who allegedly benefited from free labor while providing few learning opportunities.

These included a case decided last week by a federal district court judge in Manhattan, who found that Fox Searchlight Pictures violated minimum wage as well as overtime laws when it failed to pay production interns on the Oscar-winning film Black Swan. In similar cases, two former Conde Nast interns sued the magazine publisher, charging that they were not paid minimum wage when working for The New Yorker and W Magazine, and a former intern working for Warner Music Group and Atlantic Records brought a class-action lawsuit against the companies because he worked for no pay.

*snip*

Is it fair to say that unpaid internships benefit the wealthy? If so, how?

People say, well, unpaid internships give opportunities for people, or, that’s how I got started in the industry. But the people that can get started this way are the people that have that base of support in their family. People that don’t have that support can’t get started in the same way.

http://www.bu.edu/today/2013/unpaid-internships-and-the-law/

[brooklynite]

1. So, is it better to deny the experience for everybody?

When I was in college, I did summer internships with non-profit groups and several Government agencies. None had a budget to pay me. The work period was short and the experience was invaluable.

[reformist2]

2. Well goody for you. I know lots of people who can't afford to do that.

[Igel]

18. I don't.

There are people who can't afford to do a lot of stuff. But we're talking kids, no grown ups.

I've known kids who *could* afford to do this, if you look at the numbers. It would require discipline on the part of the kids or parents. Or depriving themselves of a luxury perceived as a need. In some cases the parents insisted the kid pay his or her own way for a lot of things at age 16, whether to teach them adult responsibility or free up money for the parents. In others the kids "needed" a car. One kid, when his car was taken away because of low grades, walked 2 miles each way to school in the dark--and he'd show up wet and cold rather than be embarrassed by riding the bus.

In some cases the family needs the kid's income to make mortgage payments or car payments. In some cases, the family really needs the kid's income to pay rent or buy food. Not all "needs" are created equal.

Most of the kids who really need to work won't be going to college. They wouldn't apply for internships anyway. Their parents won't or can't help them.

But internships are great for those who can swing them. I had one student who was going to be doing an internship this summer. And working half-time because he's from a relatively poor family. It's a chance for him to see if he likes what he thinks he wants to major in. He doesn't know--he thinks he will, but is wise enough to know that rumor and reality are different things. Better than having him major in the field and not be good at it; or be good at it and not like the actual job. It makes for efficiencies all around--for the kid, for the employer, for the college. Why have a college train John to be one of the 40 chemical engineers they have room for that year, something he had to work at, and then have the company screen him, hire him, and train him if in the end he wants to be a research chemist and quits?

Internships also include college mentorships. Every summer a college I know has a few hundred high-school kids on its campus. They live in the dorms. They hang out. And they work in labs. Some design their own experiments. Others just help the grad students and PIs. There may be a fee involved for some of the programs; not for others. The kids are mostly black and Latino and mostly poor. It's their chance to get a good letter of recommendation from a good reviewer. It's their chance to see what, exactly, lab science at the university level is like. It's a chance for them to get a view of a life they may decide they want away from peer pressure. It's motivational and educational. But it's an internship.

And, shucks, not every kid can participate. Some can't afford it because they have to work; and space is limited, so they turn away kids. Others never hear about it. Let's roll up such programs and make sure the perfect is the archenemy of the good. Above all, if we can't all have the same advantages let's try to make it so we all have the same disadvantages. No matter what the cost is to society and the kids themselves.

[liberal_at_heart]

28. That is classist and elitist.

[brooklynite]

8. Presumably you also feel that private colleges should be banned?

Because, if everyone can't afford to go to one, nobody should?

[liberal_at_heart]

27. Education should be free. Many socialist countries don't charge for education.

Education use to be the great equalizer in this country. Now it's the great divider between rich and poor.

[burnodo]

3. Internships are supposed to be learning experiences

I work in an industry where unpaid internships are the norm, but these interns are getting valuable knowledge and experience which easily substitutes for pay. The cases mentioned in the article sound much more like free labor than learning experiences.

[exboyfil]

5. In my industry the interns get paid

Any for profit enterprise should pay their interns. Non-profits are a stickier area.

One thing I would suggest to young people. Don't go into a profession where you are not valued and not being paid for your services demonstrates you are not valued. One of the reasons my daughter dropped thoughts of a broadcast journalism career was the way her services would be valued. She is now majoring in engineering.

[duffyduff]

43. Non-profits, including government agencies, are typically exempt

You are never going to see student teachers be paid for their student teaching, for example. It's they who are getting the benefit from the experience and not the employer.

[leftyohiolib]

4. unpaid i-ships= why pay you when when you can be my bitch for free

[reformist2]

6. Yep. Companies will keep pushing the envelope until we push back.

Hopefully these lawsuits will nip this in the bud, before every industry requires all new college grads to go through a period of indentured servitude.

[leftyohiolib]

9. that's right you get to work for free and somehow pay your student loans

[Igel]

19. You don't pay on your student loans during the summer.

Most internships are during the summer.

A lot of internships are also part time.

The law students I knew often had internships during the summer, and on rare occasion during their 2nd year at law school. Sometimes they went running from the law firm they interned at, glad at the opportunity to miss the bullet and learn about it during the summer. Others loved the place and had a leg up when they went for interviews.

Then again, I also knew a grad student who did a law internship the summer before law school. She took off that year and applied to grad school instead, because while she liked the law, she hated the practice and couldn't see any way that her loathing depended entirely on just the firm involved.

[liberal_at_heart]

31. they also lead to anti-union, right to work policies. I can't believe how many on here

are advocating unpaid internships.

[ceonupe]

7. so this article/OP is less about internships and more about fairness

so this article/OP is less about internships and more about fairness

the claim is its not fair people come from families and support systems that allow them to take unpaid internships and gain experience and then be successful in their careers.

The complaint is that there are some who don't have the support who cant do an unpaid internship. My remark would be life is not fair. It never will be and wealth and power and options are generational. Work a side job or night job for money and take the internship. If you cant then maybe find an apprentice program or work down a level for pay.

I blame the unions and their shunning of higher educated and skilled workers from 20-30 years ago. THe unions support the paid apprenticeship programs that slow competition for their members. For example go to school to be an electrician but still must work for 2 years under one before you can be one on your own.


Yes when my daughter is in High school and want to job shadow or spend a few months of the summer working with a veterinarian for free i will let her if that is her wish. The chance to intimately see and understand things about her possible career path is worth far more than the 1k or so she would get paid over the summer at min wage. More importantly once she gains skills she will be able to get a paying job and be able to benefit her employer.

I understand it may not be fair. My mother grew up her early years in the projects. My Grandfather worked waiting tables and sent himself to school to be a teacher and even waited tables after being a teacher and then got his masters and was a principal. My mother achieved and went to college and became a Dentist. Now I'm 31 years old married college educated and a father. YOu have to start somewhere and ensure that the generation after you benefits from your hard work and can have a better life.

[reformist2]

10. You have to start somewhere...how about a job with a living wage?

Anything less is "let them eat cake" snobbery.

[ceonupe]

11. that would be ideal

but what if they have no skill to earn a living wage with yet?

[Igel]

20. The vets around here have lots of interns.

They show up for perhaps 10, 15 hours a week. They feed the animals, hold the animals during exams, perhaps are trained in routine procedures. Nothing difficult, dangerous, or esp. time consuming.

Many are high-school students in a career/tech program and that gets them high school credit. Some are community college students.

A lot love animals and are considering veterinary science. A lot find that they love animals but *not* veterinary science. Some took the high school class because they liked animals and had no idea what the field was like--and decide they like it.

Pay them a living wage and you get one person doing what amounts to a scut job, with high turnover because it really is crappy work--the critters might try to bite, you need to feed them, and also clean their cages and the examination benches. That kind of job would helps that one person. That person might go on to be a vet, but odds are he's in it for the dough and if he decides to go back to school he'll probably have a life that needs funding instead. Little picture, where the goal of society is to provide a place for labor, it's fine. Assuming that we're all out to be low-skilled laborers. Big picture, though, it sucks.

It's not like the vets save much money, either, from internships. The kids slow things down. They waste stuff. They require more monitoring and training. Perhaps if we had a "living wage" (whatever that means--minimum wage? Enough for a single person to live on? For that one person to raise a family of 4? Dunno. It's a slippery word.)

But keep the slot as internships and every year you have from 5-10 bright-eyed kids learn whether or not they like the field and get experience that helps them in school. They're slightly pre-trained before they choose the career. They have a different relationship with the vet--it's not just "yes, boss" but the vet becomes a kind of mentor and advisor. And while it's still scut work, most things are still so new that the scut-ness of the job is incidental to the challenge and fun.

[liberal_at_heart]

33. my daughter is going to be studying veterinary medicine. I can promise you she can not afford

an unpaid internship. She is already talking about getting a part time job while going to college. I wish I could just pay her way so she didn't have to work. I can't believe there are democrats who believe in this kind of classism. It makes me very sad, but I will not stop fighting for my children's education. I am fighting Race to the Top in our k-12 public education system and I will fight this too. Everyone should have access to education. That is how those who are not born into wealth move up. If we don't believe in this anymore who are we? What have we become? This is why I am not a democrat anymore. Race to the Top is what drove me out. This only strengthens my resolve.

[leftyohiolib]

12. I blame the unions- so do most corporate toadies

[ceonupe]

13. i dont blame the unions in this case Hostests failed because of massive debt not the union

i dont blame the unions in this case Hostess failed because of massive debt not the union. In many cases the union gets a bad rap because unlike the banks and owners and investors that have the ability to diversify and min. losses the unions only have their members and their current jobs at said company they dont have much to leverage and everytime they do it seams what the win at the table is given back within 5 years)

If anything the union just pushed the issue by not being willing to give up even more. they at most speed up the end of Hostess by a year or so. If you look at the debt they were carring short of hostess being acquired by walmart or nibisco there was no way they could dig themselves out of the hole they dug.

in corporations when you cant refi your debt and it becomes due you are done.

[Recursion]

17. Apparently poor grads are more likely to take an unpaid internship than rich ones

Internships also don't seem to help people find actual jobs.

[Kingofalldems]

42. Good post there Rush.

Full of made up misinformation

[MineralMan]

14. Non-profits can get volunteers. For-profit companies

should be paying their interns a living wage. They are working for a company that makes a profit. There's no excuse for not paying workers. Period.

Non-profits should just call such positions volunteer work. Nothing wrong with that.

[former9thward]

26. No they can't.

Non-profits don't get their own special rules when it comes to employees. If they are doing work they need to be paid just like for profits. That's DOL regulations.

[Recursion]

15. Dude. DC is going to be screwed

This town runs on unpaid intern labor...

[Cleita]

16. It's about time.

Many employers just use the program to get unpaid workers. I know a woman locally who does just that. She hasn't paid an assistant in years for her agency. When they get tired of working for nothing she tells them to get another job and she will give them a glowing reference. It also has the effect of lowering wages for paid workers. Back in my day when we had labor laws with teeth in them, we had what were called trainee positions. You got paid minimum wage while you were training for a better paying job, however, there was a time limit for training too before you when on to full wages and benefits.

[Igel]

21. It can be abused.

And that's a dandy reason to get rid of them.

Then again, Medicaid can be abused. I guess that's a dandy reason to get rid of it.

[reformist2]

22. If you're working and it's for your career, and you're not getting paid, it's not right.

[Cleita]

23. That's a false equivalency.

People, even kids, should be paid for work even if it's minimal. It is after all a sort of apprenticeship. My husband was apprenticed in Europe to learn a job skill and he got paid, very little but he did get paid.

[LiberalEsto]

24. You can't get a decent entry-level job in the DC area because of interns nt

[DirkGently]

25. It won't be all unpaid internships. Just the ones where they abuse the

concept. One of the plaintiffs was on Chris Hayes. He was in his 30s or 40s, working on a film set, doing normal tasks with paperwork and things. It wasn't training. It was unpaid work, and it sounded like the film industry is used to getting away with it because of the cache of working in film and the deep stacks of people dying to get a foot in the door.

Training is training. It should be a benefit to the trainee, not a way for an employer to not pay someone they would otherwise have to.

[ag_dude]

30. Too many others are knee jerking without realizing what you posted.

You'd see a solid portion of legitimate and beneficial internships go away if the practice were completely outlawed.

[reformist2]

40. Internships that no poor or working-class student could afford to take? Good riddance.

[ag_dude]

45. FUCK YEAH

GET RID OF THEM ALL IF THEY'RE NOT ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYONE.

!!!!BURN IT DOWN!!!!

[JDPriestly]

29. Unpaid internships harm students who must work for a living and cannot work without pay.

Unpaid internships have become so common that they are beginning to amount to a form of indentured servitude which was outlawed long ago.

[MountainLaurel]

36. Absolutely

My brother had to do a 3-month internship for his undergraduate degree; it was a program requirement. He is in his 30s and has 2 kids who are strangely fond of eating. It took him 4 years to find a paid internship; he simply could not go that long without getting paid. Now, he needs to write up his experience and do one senior research project to graduate, but he can't afford to pay for the credit hours.

[LibDemAlways]

32. It costs plenty to be an unpaid intern. Gas to get to and

from the job isn't free nor is public transportation. Then there's the cost of a wardrobe to fit in with the business environment and, of course, housing if the job isn't close to parents. Some sort of compensation is in order. Otherwise, it's just corporate America taking advantage of a young person.

[reformist2]

37. If you're poor, you can pretty much forget about getting in the club.

[liberal_at_heart]

39. and that's exactly the way the rich want it.

[reformist2]

41. Society has made great strides forward, but at the top, the power-structure hasn't changed a bit.

[Brickbat]

34. Good.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

35. I had no idea how common unpaid internships were

Until I had a girl just about tear up when she found out the offered position wasn't unpaid, the coordinator at her university just neglected to mention it.

[reformist2]

38. This is such an underreported story, probably because most people in the media are from big money

and/or have big-time connections - they know there are a lot of talented but poor people out there who don't even get a chance at the plum jobs in media and finance, all because they can't "pay to play."

[aikoaiko]

44. The rulings appear to be limited to for-profit orbs

But I suspect this will have a chilling effect on educational and nonprofit internships