ZIMMERMAN TRIAL: Day 11, Tuesday, July 9, 2013

[GreenStormCloud]

Let's combine all the trial stuff into one thread instead of spreading it out over all of GD.

Live stream, no commentators or commercials: http://www.mediaite.com/uncategorized/live-zimmerman-trial-jury-selection-day-6/

[GreenStormCloud]

1. Crime scene reconstruction expert up now. N/T

[madaboutharry]

2. This man seems very nervous.

[Myrina]

8. Is his name Dexter?

[chelsea0011]

11. I don't know how the judge can let this in. There is no way to cross

an animation based on Zimmerman's take on what happened. This is what closing should be.

[pokerfan]

16. The defense produced a cartoon showing Z's version?

How does this in any way constitute factual evidence? And we already know how Z sees himself.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

133. We have already seen Zimmerman's videotaped explanation of what happened that night...

...how would this animated account add to anything that Zimmerman hasn't already said on that videotape?

That's why I am beginning to think that the judge is deliberately prejudicing the case. There's absolutely no reason to admit this as evidence without further biasing the jury. It's ridiculous!

Perhaps there's a silver lining. If the animation contradicts what we've seen in that videotape from Zimmerman himself, the prosecution, if aggressive enough (doubt it), can use that to punch holes in Zimmerman's story. Not that it's necessary. Had the prosecution done an efficient job, it would have demonstrated many holes in Zimmerman's story. There are so many lies and inconsistencies already there.

Really the bottom line is the forensics. That's the only tool that the prosecution has left. They can argue that the forensics simply do not corroborate Zimmerman's many and inconsistent accounts of what happened that night.

[Atman]

183. This pathologist is a joke.

I've had worse "wounds" on my forehead after a pillow fight. He's obviously a friend of the defense.

[premium]

186. Your calling the world's most renowed pathologist

the man who literally wrote the book on modern pathology, the book the ME referenced during Trayvon's autopsy, a joke? So tell us your experience doing autopsies.

This Dr. is taking apart the states case point by point, this is very bad for the prosecution.

[Atman]

189. I haven't testified yet.

You left that one out.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

201. He didn't help Drew Peterson all that much.

Or Phil Spector.

And somewhere, Dr. Micheal Baden is taking umbrage to you calling DeMaio the world's most reknown pathologist.

[pintobean]

202. Actually, the ME said he consulted it after the autopsy

With his admitted memory problems, he should have had it open during the autopsy. There would have been more, and better, evidence in this case.

[premium]

208. Point taken,

but that's still bad for the states case. I just don't see, IMO, how the state is going to win a conviction on any charge, especially after this damaging testimony.
The state hasn't even come close to proving 2nd Murder and now, I'm having strong doubts that the jury will convict on the lesser included charge of Manslaughter.

But, as I've said several times, you never know what a jury will do.

Jury is paying very close attention to the good DR. according to Jean Casarez.

[Mr. David]

234. Who?

Sorry, TV off...

So who's the world's most renowed pathologist?

[premium]

241. Dr. De Maio, he wrote the book on modern pathology. nt.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

272. "Your calling the world's most renowed (sp) pathologist."

Cyril Wecht says Hi

[GreenStormCloud]

198. He is a world class expert.

He has written the textbooks that other experts refer to. What you are really saying is that you don't like his testimony.

[darkangel218]

211. Lmao!!!!!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

3. I worry today may turn rather ugly.

Heard O'Mara on CNN say they want to bring in the contents of Trayvon's cell phone into evidence.

I don't know how a judge would allow this. While it's a cliche, they'd really be putting the victim on trial here.

[madaboutharry]

4. I suppose they want to argue that having certain content on your

cellphone means you should die.

I hope the jury doesn't fall for this crap.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

5. I hope the judge nips it in the bud before it even gets to a jury.

That type of "evidence" has no business belonging in a trial.

Not relevant and clearly prejudicial.

And for the record, I don't support Zimmerman's prior arrest and restraining orders coming into evidence either, although on a practical note I do think it is indicative of his character.

[GreenStormCloud]

10. Fish got a new trial because that kind of evidence was excluded.

Fish's new trial aquitted him. It was shown that the guy he shot had a background of physical agression which made it more believable that the "victim" had assaulted Fish.

The character information of both should be allowed.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

15. Except I don't know if there's a documented background of physical aggression on Trayvon's part.

They have, what? A cellphone video of some people fighting, neither of whom are Trayvon? Pictures referring to a drug not associated with making people more aggressive?

And how would Zimmerman have known anything about Trayvon's background that night, anyways? They were total strangers to one another.

Allowing in any of this evidence is only going to confuse the jury and prejudice the state's case. Perhaps if there was a long record of Trayvon having started physical fights, I could see the evidence coming in. But that's just not there.

[GreenStormCloud]

19. I was speaking mostly in the abstract.

All that I am aware of, regarding TM is the stuff that was on his facebook.

Prior knowledge of each other's background isn't needed. That kind of testimony goes to establish what kind of actions were in keeping with their character. Such background information would hurt Z more than it would help him. Z has a history of actual violent acts. TM's history is just of a teen doing some tough-guy pictures on Facebook and Facebook bragging, some school problems, and of light drug use.

[hack89]

30. There are apparently texts from Trayvon talking about fights he had

The text messages that Trayvon wrote about fighting may be the most damaging to the state.

In October, the judge said any history of violence on his part might be relevant. And violent and aggressive is how Zimmerman, a former Neighborhood Watch volunteer, described Trayvon's actions the day he shot the teenager in Sanford on Feb. 26, 2012.

On Nov. 22, 2011, three months before the shooting, Trayvon wrote about being involved in a fight. His unnamed opponent, he wrote, "got mo hits cause in da 1st round he had me on da ground an I couldn't do ntn."

Six weeks earlier he wrote a text message about problems at school involving a fight: "I was watcn a fight nd a teacher say I hit em."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-05-23/news/os-george-zimmerman-trial-trayvon-20130523_1_zimmerman-case-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman

[Hoyt]

40. And Zman's history of violence would seem similarly relevant. So let's have at it.

As well as prescription drug history with significant side-effects (not to mention underlying medical conditions) which would prompt a truly responsible gun owner to become a non-gun owner.

[hack89]

46. You need to ask the prosecutors why they failed to enter it into evidence

they could have done all of that.

[qazplm]

190. if they introduce the victims character for violence

then on rebuttal the prosecution can do the same for the accused. The accused holds the keys to that door.

[hack89]

206. No they cannot.

they have to rebut the defense's argument - which is about Trayvon's temperament. They cannot just bring up Z's history. Their opportunity to present their case is over.

[hedgehog]

160. and of course, teenage boys never exagerate how

macho they are!

[hack89]

203. The prosecution will have an opportunity to impeach the evidence

but they have to be careful - if the defense has witnesses to these fights then the prosecution may open the door to some damaging testimony.

[premium]

212. You can bet they do,

so far, the defense team has been very effective, no reason to think they won't have this angle covered.

[Voice for Peace]

289. can the prosecution call rebuttal witnesses to testify about Trayvon's character?

I was imagining people who knew him well,
not just friends but teacher, coach, like that.

[alc]

126. if a black man was on trial for killing a white man

And claimed self-defense, it may be relevant to show that the white man was a meth user with KKK contacts on his phone.

Seems like DU thinks pot use and cellphone contents are irrelevant in the Z case. How many would agree in the case above? I can't tell you the relevance in either case. Fortunately our system has judges to balance victim's privacy and defendant's right to defend themselves and a jury to determine relevance of the content when the judge allows it. Judges generally do a good job but can never be perfect. I'd rather the lean towards giving the defendant a lot of leeway regardless of anyone's race.

edit: left out a word - system

[GreenStormCloud]

135. Excellent post. N/T

[Just Saying]

178. KKK and Meth

Are not pot and a teenager's cell phone.

If the defendant is innocent until proven guilty, the victim shouldn't be guilty until proven innocent. Especially when the defendant is the reason he's not around to defend himself.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

209. But the victim IS being portrayed as the guilty party and many here on DU seem to agree with that.

And yet, they give the perpetrator (the one with the gun) the benefit of the doubt.

Why is that?

I believe that racial prejudice has something to do with this.

If Trayvon were white and Zimmerman were black, Zimmerman would have surely been arrested for killing Trayvon whether intentionally, in self-defense, or for whatever reason. Many Zimmerman supporters seem to not be able to process this possibility. Especially when it comes to the Sanford police. Minorities have been complaining about the police department for a long time now. They treated Zimmerman as their friend. I do believe that there's collusion involved. There's some cover-up. Maybe the police want to cover their ass for not following the proper procedures that night. Maybe they are angry that they are forced to testify.

But again, the fact that so many are willing to give Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt despite the fact that his many accounts of what happened that night do not add up, is chilling for me and for many black people that I've spoken with.

[Just Saying]

246. I agree with everything you just said

And I happen to be a white woman.

Racism absolutely played a role not just in Tryavon's murder, but I believe like you, the police not handling it property and certainly the reaction to the subsequent protests and trial.

I must be naive because I was surprised at how many people right here on DU support Zimmerman. I can understand wanting a fair trial but even the ones claiming that aren't being totally honest about their motivation IMO. I believe Zimmerman supporters are primarily white and male. And they are either racist, afraid of black people (6 of 1, half a dozen of another) and/or they are gun "enthusiasts" who don't seem to want anyone telling them who they can or cannot shoot with their concealed weapons.

I have 2 boys so my heart breaks for Trayvon's parents.

I hope that whatever the verdict, we take a good look at how self-defense & SYG laws are written. Why does the shooter get to claim self-defense when the person they killed can't even tell their side? It seems like they may have legalized murder in FL.

I'm not even going to watch them smear Trayvon today.

[GreenStormCloud]

254. Think carefully about what you have said.

Why does the shooter get to claim self-defense when the person they killed can't even tell their side? Suppose you are alone at home and a violent, armed, stranger kicks in your door. (This has really happened to some people.) You shoot and kill him. Are you saying that you should not be able to claim self-defense because the dead guy can't talk?

Z is not claiming SYG, but only normal self-defense. He is claiming that TM attacked him and was about to kill him when he acted. The trial is to determine if Z's account of the event is truthful.

You are saying that all of us who want a fair trial are Z supporters. That is far from the truth. Z went against CCW training that night. Our training emphasizes to avoid possible confrontations if we can.

[Just Saying]

283. Sorry but I'm not going to suppose anything.

This case has very specific facts and the shooter put himself in the position for this to happen and I believe his gun had everything to do with that. Dead men tell no tales so Z could and IMO did make up a scenario that helped him claim self-defense. And he was in the position to do so having studied FL's self-defense and SYG laws.

I did not say all who want a fair trial are Zimmerman supporters. I said this is the excuse people use who support Z. I think most people want a fair trial and JUSTICE.

If Z broke the rules, why aren't more gun people calling for his head? You should be against someone who sets the very example of what CCW opponents fear yet the gun people I see on here are all defending him.

[GreenStormCloud]

284. Florida's self-defense laws are the same as all the states.

The only difference is with SYG. Z isn't claiming SYG.

You claimed that self-defense should never be allowed and that it is always murder. I can't go with that. There are hundreds of cases per year of genuine self-defense.

Nor am I a Z supporter. You said you want a fair trial and JUSTICE. Does that mean that the only verdict you will accept is "guilty". If that is the case, then you don't support a fair trial, you want a lynching.

[Just Saying]

285. Nope, never said that self-defense

Should never be allowed. Please stop putting words into my mouth. I think Trayvon's defense would have likely been self-defense. My point was that only the man who killed him gets to tell the story. And I don't believe his version.

Stop with the lynching line. Please, because to be frank it makes you seem incredibly racist. Lynching meant something very specific in this country. I have NEVER advocated taking the law into my own hands. But that is EXACTLY what I think George Zimmerman did. He played judge, jury and executioner on Trayvon Martin. If anyone was lynched, it was Trayvon. And if Z gets off, it will be because Trayvon isn't around to tell his side and because Z knows the self-defense laws very, very well. "A" student, as I recall.

I never said I wouldn't accept a not guilty verdict but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. You are once again putting words in my mouth and that is incredibly disingenuous.

No matter how much you claim not to support Zimmerman, your posts tell another story.

[GreenStormCloud]

292. Then why did you say this:

Why does the shooter get to claim self-defense when the person they killed can't even tell their side? In ALL self-defense homicides the dead person can't talk and the shooter is claiming self-defense. So what you said applies to ALL self-defense homicides. Since it applies to all such homicides, then you are against self-defense.

All I have done is take you at your own words.

[Just Saying]

294. Not the same as saying no one should use self-defense.

What I was saying was why should say Zimmerman's story be the narrative we start with when he's the one who killed the victim? The law in FL seems to give his story weight it frankly does not deserve and then the prosecutors have to prove a negative. "Innocent until proven guilty" is an odd standard in cases like this because we know Zimmerman killed Trayvon but the only story we get is from the killer. We know he's not innocent of killing Zimmerman but why should we have to assume it was self-defense just because Z says so? For a defense like this, the defense should have more of a burden to prove their side of the story.

I don't believe Zimmerman's version, but I think it's virtually impossible for the prosecution to prove a negative or to prove a story they simply don't know because the only one who could give another version is dead.

These laws need to be reviewed.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

256. Outside of DU, there are many white people who think Zimmerman is guilty.

Regardless of what the Corporate Media is feeding us, there are many people, regarless of race or gender who believe Zimmerman to be guilty of murder. They may not feel that the prosecution adequately proved its case, but they do believe that Zimmerman is a cold-blooded murderer.

Thank you for setting me straight on this issue, too. My passion has sometimes blinded me and I've attempted to go through every possible scenario that could justify Zimmerman's actions. I honestly cannot think of one that would convince me. Not one! Not based on Zimmerman's own account in the video that the police department took. Not one based on the several accounts from witnesses who could be viewed as hostile. And definitely not one account from the Sanford Police Department.

I'm so afraid for the children--of all races--who can now be gunned down in the streets for no reasonable explanation. Anyone can now claim self defense and are immediately given the benefit of the doubt.

I am also a woman, and growing up, my parents would tell me that if someone is pursuing me and doesn't identify himself, I am to do everything in my power to defend myself: scream, yell, punch, kick, scratch, run...anything that would protect me from the perpetrator.

The Zimmerman supporters want us all to believe the story that Zimmerman got out of his car, gun in hand, pursued this kid, asked him what he's doing in the neighborhood, then when the kid fights back, he had to shoot him in self defense. An unarmed kid walking home from a 7-11 deserved to die because he looked suspicious and when confronted by a man who doesn't identify himself, FIGHTS to protect himself. Does it make sense?

Imagine if that were you or me. The Zimmerman supporters are essentially suggesting that we wouldn't have the right to physically fight back when someone who doesn't identify himself is threatening us.

You're the only person who has asked a pertinent question:

Why didn't Zimmerman and his attorneys pursue their argument under Florida's existing Stand Your Ground law? Why? Because they knew they would lose. They knew that Zimmerman following Trayvon that night would undercut any SYG case that could brought before the court. They knew that the better defense would be to claim self defense, and to do so while demonizing the dead, unarmed victim.

I think it's also time for me to turn from this case. It has consumed me for the past couple of days.

Thank you again for your thoughtful post!!!

[Voice for Peace]

291. thank you!

it is consuming, isn't it?

[Voice for Peace]

290. would it be equally relevant for the prosecution to show that the shooter

had a history of documented violence, including
domestic abuse and assault of an undercover cop;

and at the time of the "self defense"
was taking more than one prescription drug
for ADD and somethingor other, drugs known to
cause weight loss, anxiety, paranoia,
aggressiveness, violence, insomnia, poor judgement,
antisocial behavior, paranoia, likely to trigger anger
and violence, pugnaciousness, followed by utter
mendaciousness.

[GreenStormCloud]

293. Yes, and it should be brought out at trial.

If a person is taking such drugs, then they should not carry guns.

[chelsea0011]

9. This is smear day for the defense.

[bettyellen]

6. O Mara lied about a cell phone video- that Trayvon's friend beat up a homeless man....

instead it was a film he took of two strangers he stumbled upon having a fight. Huge attempt at smearing the victim.

[SaveAmerica]

205. Was that during the trial or outside the court?

[bettyellen]

247. to the press-during the trial- O Mara seems to be getting himself on TV every night....

and they should have slapped a gag order on him a looong time ago.

[GreenStormCloud]

7. Yes, it is going to start getting really ugly.

Sooner or later they are going to try to bring TM's character into this.

[Ninga]

12. I am disheartened that the defense is about to start painting a picture of Trayvon

in order to distract jury away from the core issues...

I guess that is their job..... Justice is blind.

[Nevernose]

13. That's all they've done since the beginning

They can't really go with Zimmerman's multiple stories; they're all transparent bullshit and none of the physical evidence, or even some of his own witnesses, corroborate his story. All they've had since the beginning of this trial is a giant smokescreen.

[Ninga]

14. Of course. But wearing down the jury with lots of anti-Trayvon flag waving - can have a

cumulative effect.....

[KurtNYC]

17. Wouldn't any computer animation done before the trial be prone to "assume facts not in evidence"?

The jury is not composed on people who are experts in computer animation. How can they evaluate the accuracy of this? Many people think that computers are some kind of magical, infallible know-it-all machines.

[Ninga]

18. This is a sneaky way of letting Zimmerman "testify" without having to take

the stand.....

[KurtNYC]

20. it also seems almost like a kind of hypnotism

It implants a synthetic memory in the minds of the jurors -- they see the events (as told by Zim)

and the dude looks like a hypnotist.

[magical thyme]

25. ^^^this, exactly

Last I read they hadn't decided whether Zimmerman would take the stand. From everything I've read, the prosecution is trying to push Zimmerman to where he has to take the stand.

This strikes me as a desperate move on the defense part, to keep Zimmerman from having to testify. As written above somewhere, the Prosecution can't cross-examine a cartoon animation.

I can't imagine the judge would allow it.

[chelsea0011]

21. I would think you are right. The cartoon was made before the trial and evidence.

[KurtNYC]

23. Prosecution was so poor in cross yesterday. The first friend of Zimmerman who wrote the book

testified that she "knew" the voice was GZ. Not believed, not thought, but knew. They should have just drilled down on that:

How many times have you heard the defendant scream for help? In what situation?
How do you know for certain that the voice is GZ?
Have you ever heard Trayvon Martin scream for help? But you know it can't be him, how?
What is GZ saying here ("f*ing punks&quot ? So what IS he saying if not f'ing punks ?

The Prosecution couldn't handle that witness so my hopes aren't too high for them crossing this animation guy.

[woolldog]

67. Bernie the prosecutor is horrible at cross examination.

Really disappointed by these prosecutors.

[KurtNYC]

89. Not too impressed with either side

If Prosecution thinks that who is screaming is key (and it is to the jury I think) then they should have treated the idea that Zimmerman is screaming for help with outrage that that idea deserves. Jeantel rebutted the idea more vigorously than the Prosecution's lawyers.

[ellisonz]

22. How is this "video" not hearsay?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

31. It is heresay, but...

The judge has allowed heresay into this case because the prosecution has not vigorously objected to it. So all Zimmerman's friends and family testimonies are allowed to stand, even though they're all based on heresay. It does make me believe that the State is deliberately trying to lose this case. They don't object to issues that they should be objecting too, and they have not at all been rigorous in pushing their case. They haven't been aggressive at all and it makes me wonder...

So now we are left to speculate because the key witness who could testify as to what happened was shot dead at point-blank range, in cold blood!! No one is giving this kid the benefit of the doubt; all the benefit is given to the man who stalked this unarmed kid who was simply walking home from the 7-11 during halftime!!

[ellisonz]

45. Agree.

The prosecution is worrying more about losing on appeal than about getting a conviction in the first place. Some of the cross has been okay, but much of it has lacked vigor and not fighting Disneyfication tooth and nail is no bueno.

[GreenStormCloud]

54. Not in "cold blood".

Words mean things. "Cold blood" means without emotion. The fact of a fight, observed by several witness, is sufficient to establish "hot blood".

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

122. I'll repeat it: Trayvon Martin was MURDERED in *cold blood*!!

From Day 1, Zimmerman has not shown any emotion. No remorse. In fact, he was quite proud of himself, having referred to the killing as "God's plan" to kill Trayvon. His brother and father showed no emotion, no sympathy for his family whatsoever. Instead, they appear on Faux News to give his side of events, totally hearsay, totally biased. It was not until Zimmerman was forced by his attorneys to make a statement to the parents apologizing for what happened. Other than that, this man sits in the court room, sometimes smiling. He's a murderer and I don't believe for one second that he didn't plan on shooting Trayvon with the effect of killing him.

I'll say it once more:

Zimmerman is a cold-blooded killer!

You can disagree and that's fine, but you'll never get me to change what I believe.

[GreenStormCloud]

129. Those are after the fact emotions.

At the time of the shooting, he was in a fight, (multiple witnesses) therefore not in cold blood.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

142. Multiple witnesses who cannot fully corroborate Zimmerman's story and at least one (Good)

who is biased in Zimmerman's favor.

Zimmerman pursued this kid with a gun in his holster. His intention was not to play a game of hopscotch. His aim was to confront this kid and kill him...in cold blood!!!

[GreenStormCloud]

145. ALL the witness agree that they were in a fight.

If you are in a fight, then you aren't in cold blood. You can repeat it all you want to, but the dictionary remains the same.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

193. And Zimmerman's actions fit the dictionary's definition of a cold-blooded killer!!

All he had to do is wait for the police. And if he couldn't wait for the police, he could have identified himself. He didn't. Why?

His pursuit of this kid makes no sense...other than him wanting to shoot someone...IN COLD BLOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trayvon never had a fighting chance. All the benefit of the doubt was given to this murderer who had a history of violence and aggressive behavior.

All the benefit of the doubt was given to this murderer who was armed.

All the benefit of the doubt was given to this murderer who, too, has a history of drug use, emotional and mental issues.

All the benefit of the doubt was given to this murderer who provoked and instigated the "fight" by pursuing an unarmed kid.

All the benefit of the doubt is given to this murderer who did not identify himself.

All the benefit of the doubt is given to this murderer whos own accounts of the events that took place that night are inconsistent and illogical. Anyone with basic common sense can identify all the lies and inconsistencies, not to mention, biased and prejudiced stories from the witnesses.

And I believe with every fiber of my being that Trayvon was pursued because he is black. The assumption of guilt if always on black men no matter what they do, how they're dressed, or how they respond to someone following him. And yes, I do believe that most people here and elsewhere who are defending Zimmerman with every bone in their body are motivated in small or large part by their own racial prejudices. I believe this with all my heart.

I have now placed you on full IGNORE. Enjoy responding to yourself.

[Common Sense Party]

259. If you are correct--and I don't believe you are--then why are they going for 2nd-degree murder?

What you describe is pre-meditated 1st-degree murder.

If you are so certain of Zimmerman's intentions, motives, thoughts and actions and you think the evidence is there to clearly show that to the jurors, why on earth isn't the prosecution going for Murder One?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

263. It's simple: because Trayvon is dead. The best witness for the prosecution is DEAD...

Correction: murdered!!

That's why they went for 2nd degree. The only person who could prove malice and intent is Trayvon.

However, I think Zimmerman's words and actions speak for themselves. However, in a court of law, it has to be proven. So on that point, you're right.

Still doesn't change my mind.

[Common Sense Party]

295. Are you surprised that the jury did not see the evidence the same way you did?

I'm surprised they didn't go for manslaughter. But I'm not at all surprised that they rejected premeditated murder.

[uppityperson]

151. It is possible to be in a fight in cold blood. You depend on Z's version though so for you, impossib

For the rest of us, it is possible to be cold blooded in a fight.

[GreenStormCloud]

158. Z's NEN phone call has emotional content.

Therefore Z had emotions about what was happening. He wasn't in cold blood. Some folks here want to use that term because it makes it worse for Z, but the facts don't support Z not having any emotions at the time.

[premium]

164. Don't you know that facts don't count, only emotions with some people? nt.

[uppityperson]

166. It is possible to be emotionless in a fight. My apologies for adding in about Z as that confused my

point.

[GreenStormCloud]

24. is the jury having to sit through this cartoon maker?

Or is this a hearing before the judge for admissibility? This is boring.

[pokerfan]

26. Jury is not in the courtroom

This can't possibly be allowed. The guy wore a motion capture suit and claims he recreated the entire thing based on Z's depositions? If the defense wants Z's interpretation, then they should have to put Z on the stand.

[madaboutharry]

32. What exactly is a "motion capture suit"?

[pokerfan]

51. A suit that captures motion to a computer

Like the way Andy Serkis became Gollum:

A performer wears markers near each joint to identify the motion by the positions or angles between the markers. Acoustic, inertial, LED, magnetic or reflective markers, or combinations of any of these, are tracked, optimally at least two times the frequency rate of the desired motion, to submillimeter positions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_capture

[bettyellen]

57. it is a suit with reflectors on key points of body - all joints and head and limbs - worn to record

a body's movement in 3-D. The 3-D info it collects from reflectors is transposed from the human moving in the suit to a cartoon or 3-d figure created (like the monkeys in the new planet of the apes) that has corresponding control points.

The info you collect from a person's movement becomes a script for the exact movement of the animated creature. It usually looks a lot more natural than trying to control the 3-D creature yourself. It's been used in Hollywood for dancing and facial expressions- and in general to bring "life" and natural movement to animated creatures.

[magical thyme]

27. it's strictly for admissibility...

the Defense is trying to keep Zimmerman from having to testify.

[pokerfan]

53. Eggggsactly

They don't want to put George on the stand so they want to show the jury a cartoon.

You can't cross-examine a cartoon.

[Shrek]

28. According to Twitter the jury is not present n/t

[Ninga]

29. Sadly an animation will allow the events to be sanitized by replacing the human element.

[madashelltoo]

34. That's because the only way Zim's fantastical tale

Can be believed is if it were a cartoon. He is delusional, now we see his attorneys are too.

[Ninga]

36. I know. I am worried that the judge is going to rule and allow it.....which would be awful.

She is allowing the trace thc to be entered....

[magical thyme]

38. she did *not* allow the trace thc to be entered.

and when the defense asked her to reconsider, she denied the request.

"Judge Nelson also issued an order late this afternoon denying the defense motion to reconsider its order prohibiting the defense from mentioning that trace amounts of marijuana were found in the Trayvon Martin’s blood sample."

http://frederickleatherman.com/

[Voice for Peace]

47. I think Leatherman got that wrong in his blog, someone in the comments brought it up.

Someone there also posted that if she doesn't allow
it now -- since it was brought up in Dr. Bao's
testimony -- if it's not allowed it could become
grounds for appeal.

[premium]

52. According to CNN,

it will be allowed.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/08/justice/zimmerman-trial-pot-ruling/index.html

[Ninga]

48. That's not what I read.

http://www.local10.com/news/george-zimmerman-trial-jurors-to-find-out-about-trayvons-use-of-marijuana/-/1717324/20895852/-/kp2vpt/-/index.html

[KurtNYC]

80. +1

Perhaps next the Defense will show this 'artist's conception' of what would have happened if Zimmerman simply asked TM to put on a pair of glasses:

[uppityperson]

154. I have never seen that, thank you

[davidpdx]

288. That is the best fight scene in a movie ever

Good story, bad acting, but a good movie. Someone has dubbed over the black guy's voice because he suddenly sounds like Eddie Murphy. I've seen it enough to know the voice isn't real.

[katmondoo]

33. The State of Florida wants Zimmerman found innocent

[Little Star]

102. I think you might be right because then the police, etc. may possibly...

have been negligent when they didn't investigate and arrest Zimmerman who did kill another human being.

Personally, I think they (the cops) were negligent.

[premium]

108. Negligent hell,

they botched the whole crime scene investigation, whether on purpose or inadvertently, we'll never know.

[Little Star]

116. Can't say that I disagree with you because that's exactly how I feel.

[Dwayne Hicks]

35. This is absurd..

How could this possibly be submitted as "evidence"?

[magical thyme]

43. my bet says she'll deny it.

that they would try tells me they are desperate to keep Zimmerman off the stand.

[Pennycat]

37. The prosecution overcharged

They should have gone for manslaughter. Even though the jury can find for manslaughter, their whole approach of demonstrating ill will sidetracked the case. I'm afraid Dan Abrams is correct in that Z will be found not guilty.

[avebury]

39. The lesser included charge of manslaughter is included

and on the table. Prosecutors often over charge. It is kind of like starting up with a higher price on your house in the hopes of selling it for the highest price possible.

[Pennycat]

49. But the state didn't focus on culpable negligence

Which is required for manslaughter. Regardless, the state did a piss poor job of attacking the self defense angle, which will be the key element in jury instructions.

This is is very similar to the Casey Anthonoy trial where the prosecution failed to prove cause of death, which was REQUIRED in the jury instructions.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

192. The cause of death isn't in dispute in this case.

This is nothing like the Casey Anthony case.

[uponit7771]

44. Unnn, the PA really came out during the rebuttal to defense montion to dismiss...

....after hearing that I thought Z was guilty as sin. The defense put up a laughable case and then the APA tore them a new one.

IINM the PA has a rebutal to defense to make after defense rest

[avebury]

50. Agreed! nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

61. You can consistently argue that Zimmerman acted both recklessly and with a depraved heart

Reckless being a standard for manslaughter, depraved heart/callous disregard for human life being the standard for 2nd Degree murder.

It's not as though the state is arguing that Zimmerman methodically and premeditatively planned out to intentionally kill Trayvon that evening, but in the alternative, he was just reckless.

2nd Degree and Manslaughter have closely related standards.

[Pennycat]

72. Beyond a reasonable doubt?

For M2, not even close. That ship has sailed. For manslaughter? Still weak. Had they focused on manslaughter culpability, they might have a presented a stronger case.

[uponit7771]

79. ...Z's actions of following someone with a loaded gun weren't illegal but against NWP procedures and

...against the wishes of the 911 caller.

Had he done what he signed up to do and what he was advised to do there wouldn't be someone dead.

Man is open and shut IMHO

[Voice for Peace]

111. reasonable doubt is not the same as a vague doubt

and the jury has to be instructed about what
it means.

the prosecution has a solid case, my opinion.
I didn't think so when the trial started but I
do now.

[uponit7771]

76. Reckless seems spot on, even Z defenders see going against advice from the NWP and 911 as stupid...

...and go towards the legality of what he was doing vs the thoughtfulness of Z's actions.

[avebury]

41. Gee do you think that the Judge is getting a tad bit

annoyed with the Defense team?

[Ninga]

42. A video reenactment is nothing more than a hypothetical, and is hugely

different than one specialized expert in the filed of ballistics demonstrating with visual aids how events could have happened....and be subjected to vigorous cross examination....

This is crap.

[darkangel218]

55. Nevermind, it was in regard to another witness

Edited because I was a silly goose.

[avebury]

58. I think that it has something to do with some Doctor that

is going to testify. I don't know who the guy is.

[darkangel218]

62. Yup, i heard after i posted.

I need to " chill out ", like someone told me in another thread. This is stressful

[avebury]

56. It seems to me that a lot of these witness/evidence issues

should have been resolved before the court case even started. At what point will the jury get annoyed at the Defense for their games?

[chelsea0011]

59. Defense brings out Martin's shirt and puts display right in front of victim's family

[HeroInAHalfShell]

60. I noticed that as well..

[GreenStormCloud]

63. Already been done by the prosecution. N/T

[chelsea0011]

65. But this is the defense doing it. They could have put it anywhere reasonable in the

courtroom. The prosecution would never had been allowed to place that shirt behind the defense table, I bet.

[hack89]

68. What is wrong with that?

the trial is all about the guilt or innocence of Zimmerman, not the sensibilities of Trayvon's family.

[chelsea0011]

82. Maybe they could lean it against Zimmerman's table since sensibilities don't matter

[hack89]

90. Where is it relative to the jury? nt

[Stuckinthebush]

98. Good point

I think many of us are too emotionally connected to the issue to step back and see that this is about whether Z is going to be convicted or not. I'd want my lawyer to do all that was necessary to do that.

[premium]

69. So?

The prosecution are the ones that brought it out first, put it on display in full view of the Martin family, why didn't you say something then?
This isn't anything unusual, happens in courtrooms across the country every day with trials not as prominent as this one.

[uponit7771]

64. QUESTION: Does the PA have rebuttal to defense after defense rest? thx in advance

[madaboutharry]

66. Yes.

[uponit7771]

71. thx! If the PA performs like they did during the defense request for dismissal I think views will...

...change a bit about overcharging etc.

Whoever that guy was he layed out some decent facts

[Pennycat]

91. But limited in scope

[premium]

74. Yes, and the defense gets to cross those rebuttal witness'. nt.

[darkangel218]

70. This doctor speaks funny. almost creepy

[premium]

77. Really? Why?

Because he's a defense witness?
Sounds like he's speaking quite clearly and normally.

[darkangel218]

78. No. he sounds like a mad doctor.

He's giving off a bad vibe.

[premium]

85. How?

Sounds like a mad doctor? Your bias is really showing through.
And before you accuse me of being a Zimmerman supporter, I've been consistent in saying that, IMO, Zimmerman is guilty of Manslaughter.

[darkangel218]

94. Im not accusing you of anything. This guy is creepy and thats all.

Why you care how I feel about someone? Do I tell you how to think?

[pintobean]

100. If no one should care

there's no point in posting it.

[premium]

106. You're probably in the minority,

this Dr. is a renowned Dr. in pathology, he wrote the book on pathology, doesn't seem creepy at all, but he is very knowledgeable on autopsies.

[darkangel218]

114. Hes a paid witness charging $400 per hour.

I don't care how much he charges, I just find him creepy.

[GreenStormCloud]

93. No. It is simply that you hate him because he is a defense witness. N/T

[darkangel218]

96. LMAO!! oh really??

Is that why I said that Trayvon' s friend wasn't a good witness?? Cuz I'm so biased? Lol you're hilarious.

[GreenStormCloud]

99. You have labeled the doctor's accent as "creepy".

Yes, you are biased and obviously so.

[darkangel218]

101. Im not biased based on the fact that hes a defense witness.

So I find his accent creepy, get over it.

Jeez!

[GreenStormCloud]

107. You can't see your own bias.

"Creepy", "mad doctor" and "bad vibes" are hostile terms. And he has not given one word of testimony yet.

[darkangel218]

109. And you cant accept others opinions.

Therefore you are bias too.

[GreenStormCloud]

115. I try to base my opinions on facts. N/T

[darkangel218]

117. So far you were wrong several times. You assume alot for someone claiming

They base their opinion on facts.

[uppityperson]

156. ++++++++++++

[GreenStormCloud]

167. Have you noticed that Dr. Di Maio has said the same things I have?

I maintained that TM had 10 to 15 seconds of full consciousness after being shot, due to oxygenated blood already in the brain. And he gives an example of a man who was shot in the heart at point-blank range, yet ran for 75 feet. TM was not instantly incapacitated, just as I said.

[noiretextatique]

262. neither you or the doctor know that for sure.

i don't care how much he gets paid an hour.

[GreenStormCloud]

269. Since he is a world famous forensic pathologist, I will believe him. N/T

[noiretextatique]

278. he is a paid consultant

for the defense. i am sure he is qualified, but i am also sure he is working for the defense.

[GreenStormCloud]

281. Being a paid consultant does NOT mean he is lying.

He is sworn to tell the truth, and is the world's formost expert.

[Voice for Peace]

180. let's all try to get along

there are more urgent battles

[premium]

184. Hear, hear

Voice for Peace.
BTW, love your screen name.

[madaboutharry]

83. He has a New York accent.

He sounds like he comes from Queens. I think there are a lot of folks in Florida who speak just like him.

[cpwm17]

144. You shouldn't be on a jury

You're thinking irrationally.

[darkangel218]

199. So you have never thought that someone sounded creepy? never ever in your life?

Lmao!!!

[cpwm17]

233. Your comment is totally irrelevant to the case

There are a number of such comments about this case by several people here that show similar poor thinking skills.

[darkangel218]

242. The one displaying poor thinking skills is you.

This is a freaking discussion board, not a court room. People comment on trivial things. Are you new here?

[cpwm17]

257. Insulting comments on people's looks is poor form

We all should grow out of such bad habits.

[darkangel218]

258. Oh really, do you mind copying and pasting where i insulted the pathologist's looks??

Im waiting.

[darkangel218]

270. And speaking about growing out of bad habits

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3207828


cpwm17
144. You shouldn't be on a jury
You're thinking irrationally.

Umm, yah . You've got some growing to do.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

73. I thought I just heard on HLN that the Judge agreed to have the records that show TM had THC in his

system will be introduced. does anyone know if this is true?

[darkangel218]

75. Yup its true. nt

[uponit7771]

84. Yes, the defense has to make the case that there's chance MJ makes one aggresive...

...I don't see how the pass the smell test on this.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

104. makes me eat food and watch tv..

[KurtNYC]

119. they could say that it can make one paranoid -- isn't that true?

Aside: THC stays in the system for weeks so the level in the bloodstream would be key to determining how recently he smoked.

[uponit7771]

139. Not in most cases

[bettyellen]

153. paranoid only in that you might avoid doing things or become withdrawn

you'd just be extra careful say, around the edge of subway platforms or talking to your parents, LOL.

[Shrek]

217. Not sure why they did that

Since they never bothered to ask the doctor about it.

Seems like they wasted the court's time, unless there's some other witness that will testify about it.

[GreenStormCloud]

81. Dr. DiMaio, forensic pathologist, on the stand down.

Listing his credentials.

[darkangel218]

86. Ny accent mixed with TX accent makes him creepy.

[uponit7771]

87. how is he supposed to help the defense? thx in advance

[GreenStormCloud]

95. I have no idea. N/T

[avebury]

113. Man if I were on the Jury I would have already

started tuning this guy out. It seems that the Defense feels liket there is nothing that is not worth dragging out. I wonder who is picking up the tab for this witness. He doesn't matter going on and on as it only drives his fee up.

[katmondoo]

125. The same people who are suppling Zimmerman with his color coordinated outfits

[premium]

92. So far, pretty good credentials. nt.

[pintobean]

121. Dr. Shiping Bao testified that he consulted Di Maio's book(s)

during his trial prep.

[Ninga]

88. ...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz... This blah blah sleep inducing. n/t

[madaboutharry]

97. From the Phil Spector trial.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/item_SbgUhyipkL2D9ULVQzyUaJ

[GreenStormCloud]

103. No relevance to the Zimmerman trial. Start you own thread, please. N/T

[madaboutharry]

110. He is a typical defense witness and a "hired gun."

Very relevant. Please don't insult people for participating in the discussion.

[GreenStormCloud]

120. That he testified in another trial has no relevance to this trial.

If he had never testified in a trial you would then accuse him of not really being an expert in his field. How much he charges has not relevance in the trial. Genuine experts aren't cheap.

[darkangel218]

112. You remind me of that clip from Seinfeld

No soup for you, Next!!

[darkangel218]

105. Oh shit!!!

Expensive " witness" isn't he

[avebury]

118. From @bobkealing:

bob kealing ‏@bobkealing 2m Aye!“@MikeSchneiderAP: All in favor of time limits on qualifying witnesses as courtroom experts, raise your hands!”

[Spazito]

123. LOL, hand raised here and I bet if the jury could, they, too, would...

raise both hands on that question. I tune out after the first 10 minutes, whether it is a defense or State witness, of the tedious listing of 'credentials'.

[uponit7771]

140. +1

[avebury]

124. From @bobkealing

bob kealing ‏@bobkealing 3m VDM: muzzle was 2-4 inches from skin. I just caught a glimpse of close up 8x10 of chest wound

The gun was still pretty close to Trayvon's skin.

[Jim__]

128. I think the issue here is that Trayvon's shirt was not against his skin.

The implication they want to draw is that Trayvon was on top, leaning down.

[avebury]

130. 2 - 4 inches is still pretty darn close to me.

I only think that the distance factor really works for the defense is if it was significantly further away from Trayvon then that.

[Jim__]

134. I expect that the prosecution will strongly challenge this guy's claims.

I think this will be a key point.

[Voice for Peace]

191. ++ looking forward to the cross examination

they can raise equally possible scenarios --
like Z might have been holding T's shirt to prevent
him from getting away.

[bettyellen]

131. Or GZ was pulling at his shirt- I thought the holes were lower on the shirt than his body-

as if it had been pulled? I guess we will find out if that is true.

[Jim__]

137. I really expect the prosecution to challenge this guy's claims.

[premium]

141. Good luck with that,

this Dr. is the top of the field of pathology. I predict that they'll try to rattle this man and it'll backfire on them, as has been happening with most of the other witness'.

[Voice for Peace]

197. the prosecution just has to get the doctor to validate other possible interpretations

which shouldn't be hard.

[GreenStormCloud]

143. They will have a very hard time of it.

Dr. Di Maio is a world-class expert on forensic pathology. He has written the textbooks that other experts use.

[GreenStormCloud]

132. Yes.

And I he will talk about how long TM lived, Z's injuries, and other stuff.

[KurtNYC]

146. He likely was on top.

Zim pulls or goes for his gun and TM punches him and pushes him down, tries to keep Zim from shooting him, screams for help, loses the struggle -- Blam!

[Jim__]

149. Does the prosecution accept that? I haven't been listening to the whole trial.

If Trayvon being on top doesn't contradict their case, then a lot of what this guy is saying doesn't really hurt them.

[KurtNYC]

181. I am unclear on what the prosecution believes the positions were

Prosecution has fought the idea that Zim was hit in the face 20+ times and that his head was pounded on a concrete sidewalk 30 times and he certainly doesn't have the injuries for those numbers.

If TM is on top and yelling as loud as he can for "help!" then he is still the one in fear. If someone is about to shoot him, as in this case, he had good reason to be in fear regardless of what the position of their bodies is.

[Voice for Peace]

204. it really doesn't contradict their case at all.

It's perfectly reasonable that Trayvon might have
been on top and fighting for his life.

Zimmerman's disadvantage in the fight is that
he couldn't fight with his fists AND keep one
hand on his gun. (my speculation)

The prosecution's case is very simple and
straightforward, and for the most part based
on established fact and a reasonable interpretation
of circumstantial evidence.

I think part of why the PA in general is
not aggressively cross-examining, is that
little of the defense witness testimony throws
reasonable doubt into the foundation of the charges.
my opinion.

Also -- perhaps the PA is making extra
effort not to waste the court's time, as the
judge gets highly annoyed when that happens.

[GreenStormCloud]

127. They are taking a lot of time to establish that Dr. Di Maio as a world-class expert. N/T

[avebury]

136. Good or bad for Defense?

bob kealing ‏@bobkealing 7m Close up image of actual wound being shown on overhead screen, tattooing pattern. Jurors looking at it. Zimmerman, Tracy Martin looking away

bob kealing ‏@bobkealing 5m Juror B-29 resting head on right hand; does that often.

bob kealing ‏@bobkealing 2m Zimmerman did not look at large image of bullet wound to his immediate left on the screen.

[premium]

147. Don't know yet,

but, IMHO, this is going to be bad for the prosecution, they can't challenge his credentials, this man literally wrote the book on modern pathology, the states ME witness said he consulted the Dr's book while doing Trayvon's autopsy, and according to some of the tweets, the jury is listening and watching very closely.

[avebury]

152. If Trayvon died as quickly at this witness says he did,

then it makes sense that the shot would have caused a yelling Trayvon to shut up.

He is saying that Trayvon might have had movement for a few seconds but he did not state it as an absolute fact.

[SaveAmerica]

232. "You say Trayvon Martin could have lived up to XXX minutes after he was shot...

is it possible that he died in a shorter amount of time than that? Is it possible that he died within seconds of the shot?"

He's got credentials but he wasn't there to see what happened and just because other cases are out there of someone being shot and moving several feet is not conclusive to what happened to Trayvon Martin. I get that they want to establish that it is possible that someone can live for XX amount of time after a shot, but it is also possible to show he could have died in less amount of time than that.

[Shrek]

138. Jurors seem captivated

Rene Stutzman@renestutzman

Jurors seem captivated by di Maio, defense gunshot expert.

[avebury]

148. Doesn't the Doctor's testimony better

support that Trayvon would have been the one yelling for help?

[uponit7771]

159. Looking at the facts yes...it was brought up yesterday that GZ was wearing a waste holster meaning

...the gun was on his butt cheek and not visible to TM, not only that but GZ was wearing a long tshirt and a jacket.

GZ said he didn't think he shot TM and the bullet went wide .. if so GZ would still be shooting and the screams would not have stopped.

The "...that doesn't suond like me..." wasn't a passive statemetn, i was in response to Serion challenging GZ's account of being smothered....Serino said he couldn't tell GZ was being smothered.

[avebury]

162. In addition, this witness absolutley does not support

Zimmerman's claim that Trayvon pounded his head into the concrete numerous times.

Edit to add:

Based upon this guy's testimony, Zimmerman's head should have been demolished.

[uponit7771]

171. RIGHT! I've had a concusion in football, not a mark on my scalp but if I had NO helmet

...I think I would've been dead or something close.

Z's head was supposedly hit against concrete way harder than my head fell against grass with a helmet

[bettyellen]

249. I think "that doesn't sound like me" was a preemptive dodge in case they could prove it wasn't him

[Ninga]

150. Establishing Zimmerman's claim of Trayvon being able to still say "you got me"...which means what???

Moving his arms???????

[katmondoo]

155. This testimony is gross

I am feeling more and more sorrow over this young man's death. This witness is making his last moments a horror.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

163. Psychologically, the expert's testimony might be a little counterproductive

Explaining the horrors of being shot to death can't be all that pleasant to imagine, and could certainly evoke sympathy for Trayvon.

[uponit7771]

157. Is ANYONE going to ask about the lack of DNA on TM hands after slamming GZ's bloody head?

[GreenStormCloud]

170. That is the prosecution's job. N/T

[uponit7771]

161. What is the likely hood someone would have a point blank shot to the heart during even a mild ...

...concussion?

[Lurks Often]

165. Doubt Zimmerman was aiming for the heart,

given the circumstances, Zimmerman almost certainly drew the gun and fired as soon as the gun was pointed in Martin's direction.

[uponit7771]

168. ...that would be a pretty lucky shot vs firing in TM's ribs or even stomach...he'd have to bring the

...gun up also...

Zimmerman's accounts have too many favorable probabilities in it...

[jbond56]

169. Can you scream help with a mild concussion or "stunned"?

[premium]

175. Yes, and I know this from personal experience. nt.

[jbond56]

177. Was your speech slured?

[premium]

179. No, not really,

I had an AK-47 round hit me in my helmet in Vietnam, it knocked me ass over teakettle, stunned the hell out of me, but I was still able to yell for our medic clearly.

[jbond56]

187. Dang

I was guessing football injury,that is much worse. Last question. Do you think if you were screaming at the time of impact and stunned, would you have continued screaming? or paused a second (or longer) then continued?

Glad you survived!

[premium]

200. I can only speak for myself, and this was over 40 years ago,

but when I was hit, it took me a few seconds to get my shit together and call for the medic. I actually got very lucky, if it had been a straight on hit, I wouldn't be here not, but because it was a glancing blow, it only stunned it.
I still have that helmet and you can see the dent it made dead center of my forehead.

[Voice for Peace]

213. you must have felt confused about whether you had just died or not

? (I would have)

[premium]

220. I was wondering what the hell had just hit me,

but pure adrenaline is an amazing drug, it let's you do things that you otherwise couldn't do, and when someone is shooting at you, the body released lots of adrenaline into the bloodstream.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

176. An excellent question.

Crossing my fingers that the state brings that up on cross.

[GreenStormCloud]

210. Yes. I was in an car accident. Mild concussion.

I was still able to think, stand, and speak, but was a bit dizzy.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

218. Screaming for help and at the same time, going for your gun? A concussion and bloodied nose?

IMPOSSIBLE!!!!

But that's what Zimmerman and Cheerleading Squad want us to believe, as if we're fucking stupid.

[GreenStormCloud]

225. Can't talk and walk at the same time?

I know that he has me on ignore, but others read these posts.

So this poster thinks that you can't talk and use your hands at the same time. You scream with your mouth, and use your hands to draw a gun.

Dr. DiMaio has already testified about the injuries. Perhaps this poster will list his credentials to counter Dr. DiMaio's.

[premium]

230. You and I both know that it's actually a normal thing,

cops do it all the time, I did it during combat ops, people in fights do it all the time.
That posters assertions that it's impossible is just ridiculous.

[Yo_Mama]

238. Oh, yes

Which is quite fortunate for many victims.

If Zimmerman had shown any more severe symptoms, they would have taken him to the hospital, not the police station. I've known several guys who have sustained mild concussions, and except for the momentary "ponk" effect, all of them were mobile and speaking. Two were briefly woozy, but none of the three were knocked out.

Adrenalin is a very strong stimulant and will offset some of the impact anyway. With a very severe head injury it might make it worse (higher BP increasing internal swelling/bleeding).

Come to think of it, I had a non-mild concussion myself, and although I was briefly unconscious, it was very short, and I was up, thinking, moving and talking almost immediately. I could not have been out more than 15 seconds.

It was in a car accident, and I broke my hand and and a pretty serious head laceration with a lot of bleeding, but I got myself out of the car with severe damage and a crumpled door with one hand working only.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

265. O.K., but if I'm trying to prove that I acted out of self defense, I would want to have some

corroborating proof, and that proof for me would be to get some x-rays done and have some form of medical attention.

Zimmerman said that his head was slammed in the concrete at least 25 times. Yes, adrenaline is a powerful stimulant. If that is the case, Zimmerman should be incapacitated or dead if we are to believe his story that his life was in danger.

I don't believe that it was. And I feel confident that reasonable and FAIR-MINDED people would have doubts or at least question why there weren't more severe injuries for someone who claimed to be in life-threatening danger.

[Lurks Often]

207. Dr. Di Maio seems to disagree n/t

[Tommy_Carcetti]

172. How would injuries on the front of GZ's head be indicative of his head being bashed into concrete?

That wouldn't make physical sense unless Zimmerman was face down or being upside down vertical to the ground.

I no get.

[GreenStormCloud]

194. Blow delivered to front, driving head into what is behind it.

Basic physics.

[avebury]

173. I would like to know if this witness looked

at anything else except photographs.

[katmondoo]

174. This Defense expert reminds me of Henry Lee who always testifies for the Defense

He is always described in glowing terms but will always be favorable for the dense. OJ trial was one of Henry Lee's best to help free a double murderer

[Shrek]

182. "Definite evidence of six impacts"

to Zimmerman's head.

[Pennycat]

185. This guy is destroying the ME the state called

Cross is going to be interesting

[dkf]

188. State's ME referred to Defense ME's book.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

195. Drew Peterson and Phil Spector Thank Dr. DiMaio for his exculpatory testimony

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.175752!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/alg-court-spector-jpg.jpg

[DemocratSinceBirth]

196. Other

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.175752!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/alg-court-spector-jpg.jpg

[uponit7771]

214. Is Dr. DiMaio the Dr that was on the stand? I thought it was some other last name

[GreenStormCloud]

215. Totally irrelevant to this trial.

You are trying to discredit Dr. DiMaio, but his credentials are too solid. You are making a fool of yourself.

[dkf]

216. They prefer Dr. Bao.

[darkangel218]

219. Quit calling other posters names.

You're going on ignore.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

221. Point is, the guy is falliable.

He might have a long list of credentials, but that doesn't always mean his testimony is a slam dunk and the jury will automatically believe him.

[premium]

224. This testimony is devasting to the states case

and certain elements here don't like it, so their reduced to name calling.
I still think that Zimmerman is guilty to the lesser included charge of Manslaughter, but, IMO, the state's case is falling apart faster than a cheap pair of shoes.

[darkangel218]

228. The OP is the one doing it. lol!!!

[premium]

237. So he's the only one doing it?

You already did when you called the DR. creepy.
BTW, when I said name calling, I was referring to the name calling of the DR., not other members.

[darkangel218]

245. So its Okay to call our own DUers names, as the OP is doing, because some posters commented

On the trial pathologist??

Thanks for the laughs!!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

267. Not as foolish as testifying that Lana Clarkson

Not as foolish as testifying that Lana Clarkson went to Phil Spector 's Beverly Hills' lair to shoot herself in the mouth.

[wdkellysr]

222. WHAT IF TRAYVON MARTIN WAS SHOT IN THE ARM AND DID NOT DIE?

I am sitting here watching this trial and can not believe all the hypothetical being introduced into this trial.

What if Trayvon Martin was not killed, but only wounded? Would we seriously be considering this is a self defense case?

[Pennycat]

226. I wish we were

Cos TM would be alive

[hedgehog]

235. I think it entirely possible that Trayvon MArtin would have been on trial for attacking Zimmerman!

[JustAnotherGen]

243. Agreed

And it would have happened very quietly and he would have been sent to a private prison. There's no way they would have taken a young, black, male teenagers word over the son of an influential caucasian judge.

[GreenStormCloud]

248. Z's father was not and is not a judge.

That is a myth that is being spread around on DU. And you just promoted him to "influential judge". Z's father was a magistrate which is a minor court official in Virginia.

[JustAnotherGen]

253. Fair Enough

But the situation was a hypothetical. I.E. Him getting shot in the arm.

Okay - let me show you how America really works - through the eyes of black Americans.

You can discount me and say it's not true all you want but we have OUR truth and I will not allow it to be defined by white Americans. No more - our reality is only to be defined by us - Capice?

Scenario:
A young black teenager from a wealthy and influential family gets shot IN THE ARM by a 30 year old NON black male in a low paying job and the NON black guy says it was self defense.

Here's how it goes: Young black teenagers gets sent to a 'private for profit' prison very quietly and gets put onto a path of slavery by any other name.

- End of Scenario -
We KNOW how America works. Just don't lie to me and tell me that you actually believe that a young black male would EVER be believed over a 30 year old NON black male.

It's not how America works. So don't tell yourself that lie. You are a liberal and progressive and I really sincerely hope you aren't falling for the IndieTeaPublican lies they've told you about black folks all of your lives.


When you realize and ACKNOWLEDGE that some of us know this scenario as OUR VERY real reality of America (example - my father's oldest brother was lynched in 1941 in northern AL) - then it becomes clear that its' just the way America is.

We can no more help being the ugly cesspool of bigotry and hatred that we are than British can help being proper.

[GreenStormCloud]

282. None of that has anything to do with the fact the Z's father is/was NOT a judge. N/T

[JustAnotherGen]

286. True

But I responded to the scenario.

And you know what I wrote about America is true. You know it. As a liberal and/or progressive you know that it's true.

[GreenStormCloud]

287. My objection was to calling his father a judge, and nothing more.

I see a lot of folks post stuff that just isn't true.

[premium]

251. Zimmerman's father was never a judge,

he was a Magistrate in VA, which is a low level court position.

[Yo_Mama]

239. Zimmerman would be a hell of a lot happier now,

and so would everybody else, esp. Martin's parents.

If only...

[bettyellen]

252. George knew you get in more trouble for pulling a weapon on someone when it's not needed than you do

if they die and can't testify against you.

[avebury]

223. I would like to hear the Defense's ME witness explain

the lack of Zimmerman's DNA on Trayvon.

[Shrek]

227. Maybe the prosecution can bring it up

But I'm not sure.

Can they cross him on that if the defense didn't mention it during direct examination?

[GreenStormCloud]

229. I would like for that question to be asked too.

But that is the prosecution's job.

[GreenStormCloud]

236. STARTING NEW THREAD FOR THE AFTERNOON SESSION.

This thread is getting long and takes too long to load. The many subthreads are making it all the longer. See the new thread for new comments that aren't part of a subthread.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

231. And I would like to hear why--if Zimmerman's head was bashed at least six times--

...why he refused medical attention. Is there a doctor who examined Zimmerman who can corroborate that he indeed had some kind of concussion? A broken nose? Anything that would make me believe that his life was in danger? Because I simply can't believe that a man with a gun was screaming for help because he was fearful of his life, but suddenly stopped screaming after shots were fired. It makes no logical sense. Even given Zimmerman the full benefit of the doubt, nothing is adding up for me. Nothing makes sense.

[uponit7771]

240. I expect that part to be ripped by the PA...Zimmerman is either the luckiest guy in the world that

....night or he's lying his bunns off

[uppityperson]

255. Yup. Eom

[GreenStormCloud]

244. STARTING NEW THREAD FOR THE AFTERNOON SESSION.

This thread is getting long and takes too long to load. The many subthreads are making it all the longer. See the new thread for new comments that aren't part of a subthread.

[frylock]

266. link?

[avebury]

250. I really hope that the PA who handled the

Prosecutions rebuttal on the DA's to have a summary judgement of acquittal handles the cross. I really like that guy. He is very calm, thorough and phrases all of his questions so that he is easily understood and his line of reasoning followed.

[darkangel218]

260. The prosecution is hammering this paid defense witness!!!

Bwahahahahahaha!!!!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

261. I am truthfully and honestly trying to make sense of this case...

They can talk about Zimmerman being beaten all they want. Once Zimmerman provoked Trayvon, it was actually Trayvon's right to defend himself. So yes, we can all agree that this witness helps the defense. However, there's still no proof that Zimmerman feared for his life and/or his injuries were life threatening.

I had to step back and give Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt for a minute. What would any reasonable, logical person do after having shot someone in self defense? Any reasonable, logical person would consider getting a medical examination so that at the very least, the police will have record that medical attention was sought after having one's head bashed in cement. The police would want that evidence to prove that one's life was in danger, right?

To further prove that one's life was in imminent danger, one would demand that a valid police report was taken and that any witnesses who called 911 or saw anything would be brought to the police station and questioned on the spot! Any reasonable person would make sure that someone saw or heard something, not just that person's friend, but someone who is objective and who could corroborate the story without prejudice.

So, after stepping outside of myself and considering the entire range of possibilities, I had to come away with the following conclusions:

There is so much about Zimmerman's behavior after this event took place that doesn't make the slightest bit of logical sense.

There's so much about the Sanford Police Department's behavior following the shooting that doesn't make the slightest bit of logical sense.

There is so much about this entire case that simply doesn't make logical sense, even when Zimmerman is given the FULL benefit of the doubt. None of the varying accounts make sense. Nothing adds up.

[noiretextatique]

264. i agree with you: his story just doesn't add up

and notice all the pro-zimmerman posters here pretending to be "neutral?'" amazingly, this so-called neutral ones keep claiming the prosecution should have charged him with manslaughter, and they keep claiming up is down, basically. i don't understand how anyone can defend this proven liar. zimmerman has been relying on racism to "prove" his case from the night of this murder. and his defense team is continuing that strategy

[darkangel218]

273. Yup.

Its ridiculous.

[noiretextatique]

280. what's even more ridiculous

are the people who keep whining about zimmerman receiving a fair trial after he executed martin. they are so transparent.

[Pennycat]

271. Two common misconceptions

1) Short of Zimmerman causing TM fear of death or GBH, or an actual assault TM had no right to touch GM.
2) Zimmerman does not have to prove he feared for his life/GBH, but the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not in fear.

[noiretextatique]

279. self-defense?

are you claiming TM had no right to SHG after being stalked and confronted by an armed gunman?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

268. So, let's see....

Bernie: If I put my hands over his face, wouldn't I have blood on my hands? *silence in the court room*
But TM didn't! So GZ was lying about having his nose and mouth covered.

Dr: Blood

-------

So George is fine! Every single solitary medical person said George was FINE!!!! HE WAS NOT CRITICALLY INJURED AT ALL!!!!! THE DEFENSE CAN'T CHANGE THAT FACT!!! THIS MURDERING ASSHOLE WAS AND IS STILL HEALTHY!!!!

[darkangel218]

274. +1000

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

275. Bernie made a good analogy...

If Trayvon was on top and pulling away, Zimmerman could've still hit him with that shot!

GEORGE ZIMMERMAN SHOULD'VE NEVER GOTTEN HIS ASS OUT OF THAT CAR!!

CASE CLOSED!!!!

ALSO, the forensics doesn't show any Zimmerman DNA on Trayvon EXCEPT FOR ONE DROP OF BLOOD ON HIS UNDERSHIRT!!

Bernie did a good job also when he asked: You are bleeding from your nose and someone is covering your mouth; wouldn't there be DNA left on you?!??!?!

[darkangel218]

276. Pro zimmies are desperate. They know zimmy is guilty but keep hopping he'll get aquitted

I find the same group in the gungeon.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

277. Aw, yes. Here we have the "I have a black friend, therefore I can't be racist" witness...

The defense is truly grasping. Truly!!