Please do keep in mind that somewhere around 40% of Americans think Obama is a radical leftist

[Douglas Carpenter]

Last edited Tue Jul 9, 2013, 06:18 PM - Edit history (2)

I am highly critical of the NSA surveillance program. I am highly critical of many things about the Obama Administration. I don't think he meets the definition of a progressive or even a liberal. But that would be true of almost every major contender for the Democratic Party nomination for President in the last few decades.

But those of us on the progressive wing of the Democratic Party should keep in mind that in spite of all of this where the political culture of America is these days. We are not like a European country where you have the pro-business conservatives on the right - the pro-labor socialist on the left and the liberals in the middle. I sure wish we did. But that is simply not the reality of American political culture and I don't think it ever really was - except perhaps perhaps for a few brief moments in all of our history. We live in a country where the left in any real sense barely exist outside of academic or counterculture elite circles. So let us continue trying to push the country in the progressive direction.

So let's also keep in mind the reality of American politic and what the real alternative is to today's Democratic Party. Speak out as much as is necessary - but let's not forget how close to half of America's politically engaged population thinks.

I saw this on the Facebook Page for my hometown in Western PA. I wish I could say this is just a few right-wing nuts -- but in fact thinking like this dominates close to half of America these days....


Pennsylvania, one of the first 13 colonies, should take care of traditions and not be intimidated by Commies!

[The Magistrate]

1. Home Truths, Sir

[Zen Democrat]

2. They think he's a socialist.

[think]

4. Kind of tough to have a discussion when it starts out "Obama is a socialist"

I've tried and they aren't fun.

[Skraxx]

6. Or How About "Obama is A Fascist!"

Two sides of the same coin, and impossible to converse.

[think]

21. What percentage of America thinks that?

[Skraxx]

22. Not A Very Large Perecentage, In Fact, It's Probably Infinitesimally Small

And they have practically no influence whatsoever. But they seem to congregate on Democratic message boards and scream very loudly and proflifically about it.

[think]

26. I don't doubt some do call Obama such things but to focus on them

would be a bit paranoid....

[Skraxx]

28. Who's Focusing On Them? Just An Observation

Some people call him Socialist, some call him fascist, both groups are completey outside the scope of relevance and constructive discussion, just an interesting phenomenon and observation.

[HooptieWagon]

31. Some of the BOG think hes a progressive.

Evidence that low-information voters belong to both parties.

[Skittles]

49. no, they think he is PERFECT

there's a difference

[1StrongBlackMan]

58. No ...

and speaking for myself only, I don't think he is perfect ... far from what I would consider perfect; but nor do I think he deserves the drubbing that many outside of BOG issue.

[Skittles]

59. thank you for speaking for yourself only

[1StrongBlackMan]

60. I find it all I can accurately do ...

as opposed to my trying to say what other people think.

[leftstreet]

36. Then...40% of people don't know what a socialist is n/t

[cali]

3. this is a really good tempering op- if you know what I mean

I'm so angry about the TPP and the TTIP and The President pushing these horrendous deals that I needed that reminder.

[Demo_Chris]

5. This 40% is the fix news talk radio crowd who also actually believe he is Lucifer returned .nt

[temporary311]

7. It's a shame they're wrong.

[olddots]

11. welcome and you are correct .

n.t.

[Enrique]

8. the people are actually progressive, it's the Congress that's right-wing

take single-payer for example, it has wide support among the citizenry, in some polls it has majority support. But in Congress, it's not even on the table.

The attitude in this OP is a big mistake imho. All these politicians making "centrist" compromises is bad enough, now we want progressives to compromise our own progressivism because of some imagined conservatism in the public? If that's not what you're saying it's sound like it and I've heard it before. We should leave the triangulating to the professionals, like Rahm, and keep being progressives.

[liberal_at_heart]

10. Congress is right wing because they have been bought by the 1%. They no longer represent us.

[liberal_at_heart]

9. Obama and all other democrats lost me with Race to the Top.

I will not vote for someone who rather than fully fund public education would rather hand it over to billionaires.

[NuclearDem]

12. God, how I wish we had a socialist/radical leftist in the White House...

[liberal_at_heart]

15. Me too. We need them in Congress too.

[HooptieWagon]

33. +1000

[YoungDemCA]

13. Bullshit

No way that it's that high.

And anyway, it's beside the point. Junk food, bad music, and American Idol are popular too. I guess we should serve more of that, because hey, "the people want it."

[Starry Messenger]

14. It's true, it's just frustrating.

I get into this argument with other leftists off DU. One guy assured me his community was ready for "revolution"! and damn elections anyway. Not a single county in his state went for Obama. Yeah, they're ready all right they won't even vote for a middle of the road Democratic nominee.

There's a school of thought that if people were given a "real leftist" to vote for all of the non-voters would then come out in droves. I don't know, I get the line of thinking behind that, but I wonder when you get things like 2010. It seems hard to even get people to vote to sustain the little we did/do have.

My ramble.

[YoungDemCA]

19. Part of it has to do with the political culture of different countries/states/regions/etc...

Some questions to keep in mind:

-Is there much of an organized labor presence?

-Is there a history of racial or ethnic strife?

-How participatory is the electoral process?

-How entrenched in power are local elites?

And so on and so forth.

[Starry Messenger]

23. Yes, and capitalist development has had an uneven process of development in different regions.

That also affects the political developments.

Having nearly half the country be right-to-work doesn't help either, imo. It's a self-perpetuating race to the bottom, that also negatively affects a population's political acumen when organized labor isn't strong in the state.

[YoungDemCA]

30. Yep, right-to-work is a big hurdle....

Part of the insidiousness of right-to-work, in addition to making unionizing so difficult, is that, in regions of the country with a long history of racial and ethnic strife, working people of different "races" are put into direct or indirect competition with each other for lower-wage jobs.

Having racial minorities and/or (often illegal/undocumented) immigrants to use as insurance against the potential agitations of white workers for so long has been a godsend to local elites in many regions of the country. You can't talk about class in America without also, inevitably, talking about race-or gender, for that matter.

[Starry Messenger]

39. Correct.

It's not an impossible task to reverse, but will take a lot of slow patient work in many areas to turn that around. I probably won't live to see socialism in my lifetime, but a country with all union states would be a sea change for the US in itself.

Race and gender issues are def. part of class oppression in the US. Same with LGBT issues.

[Bluenorthwest]

35. In 2010 Oregon had the largest midterm turnout since at least the 80's

Senators Wyden and Merkley, my rep is DeFazio. Not that the word 'leftist' is applicable in the US but these guys are sure not Blue Dogs or Centrists and we get turn out. Low turn out happens in the 'we run Blue Dogs' areas. Just how it is.
And it is not just candidates, it is also about the issues on the table.

[LWolf]

16. Somewhere around 40% of Americans are idiots.

To put it more softly:

1. The don't know what a "leftist" is, let alone a "radical leftist."

2. They depend on others to think for them; to figure things out and spoon feed them propaganda to live by. They've been conditioned to be passive recipients of "information."

3. They trust those who tell them what they want to hear.

[progressoid]

17. When I hear that he's a "socialist" or a "radical",

I just say, "I wish".

End of discussion.

[Hydra]

18. You're right, an astonishing number of people think he's a lefty

But that just proves how little those people are paying attention- and even how little our party is paying attention.

We just keep drifting rightward, while people like me are mocked for thinking capitalism is a bad system.

Who would have thought the world would turn into a bunch of Reagan lovers in so short a time?

[YoungDemCA]

20. Some of those people are paying attention....

...but they're paying attention to liars and scam artists in the corporate mass media.

Many Republican voters aren't under-informed, they're misinformed. Maybe both, actually. But those things are different.

[liberal_at_heart]

24. Hydra is addressing both parties, not just republican voters.

[Maximumnegro]

25. We are not drifting rightward. That's ridiculous.

Why does it always have to be so reductionist. When you have medical marijuana in many states, LEGAL in two states, gay marriage and lgbt right FINALLY being accepted nationally and legally, ACA (no its not single payer but COME ON), et cetc. that is NOT rightward drift. It is far more complicated than that. The country is moving left socially but not fiscally and as the OP stated that is considering just how conservative much of the country remains.

Just like dems on DU there is a smaller but VERY vocal and powerful minority that is doing everything it can to dictate and dominate the discourse of the country. And that is because the country IS lurching leftward. They know it and will do anything to stop it.

[liberal_at_heart]

27. we will not let centrist democrats ignore economic justice anymore.

[truebluegreen]

46. Social issues we are going to the left.

Economic issues not so much, including in the Democratic Party.

[Hydra]

67. The President is fighting us on Cannabis

And he was fighting the LBGTs until someone finally talked some sense into him.

The ACA is the Gingrich/Nixon plan. If we liked it so well, why didn't we vote for it it way back when?

Every issue you could list, the pressure from the top has been to the right. We've applied our own pressure against that and gotten some gains, like DOMA being declared unconstitutional.

We are completely drifting rightward. 20 years ago, do you think we'd be talking about why the President has a right to spy on all of us? Has the right to kill people without a trial? Has the right to negotiate treaties in complete secrecy? Where austerity is the bee's knees?

We're living in Republican wet dream world. It scares me...a lot! It scares me more that people on our side are supporting it and pushing the policies!

[Bluenorthwest]

29. Two things,first you should support such assertions. Where is the evidence of this 40% figure

that agrees with 'he is a radical leftist'? Second, more than 40% vote against any President, about 30% is far right dyed in the wool crazed. So what? Why should it matter? Did it matter to Bush that the large numbers of the opposition wanted and still want him to 'go to the Hauge'? People were furious that 'impeachment is off the table' for Bush. Just saying. They impeached Clinton. Did either one of them mutter about how unpopular they were with the other side as if that was reason to behave differently?
Just saying it is a choice he makes to give a shit what a percentage of the right wing thinks. No one has to make such choices.
Now, where is a link to the poll you speak of where they used terms like 'radical leftist' to Americans. Can't wait to see it, sure it exists, you'd make stuff up!

[Douglas Carpenter]

38. in 2010 55% described him as a socialist - up from 40% in 2008

http://www.salon.com/2010/07/09/obama_socialist_poll/

I'm sure there is more recent data - and I'm sure finding it would be easy enough. But anyone who didn't already know this - is not not facing the world of reality. I wish it were not so - but even in orthodox Marxism there is the fundamental principle that we must always speak the truth and act on it - no matter how bitter it may be. Facing the reality of American body politic does indeed contain a lot of very bitter truths that I wish were not so.

I voted my conscience only once in my life and that was on my 18th birthday on November 7, 1972. I hope someday I can vote my conscience again -

[Bluenorthwest]

41. You said 'radical leftist'. You disappoint me.

I wanted to see a poll that spoke to Americans with the terminology you claimed, but that was made up. Your OP was enhanced, there is no poll that says what you claim. I don't care for that sort of thing much. To make stuff up and then shout about 'reality' is just arrogant. Climb down from the pulpit, Father Doug.
I knew you had no such poll, because no one in the States says shit like 'radical leftist'. Your posts don't mesh well for me DC, and I do not trust you are what you present. Sorry.

[Douglas Carpenter]

43. well - I think it's best to live in the world of reality - even if the reality is not what one wants

[limpyhobbler]

32. That 40% might be sort of unreachable. It's worse when Democrats do it.

That 40% you mention might be sort of unreachable. They are a problem to be sure.

But in a sense it doesn't matter what they do because they are going to oppose any progressive changes, no matter what. As a result, I really don't care so much about them.

I'm much more worried about the other half of the country. Those are people who identify as Democrats or liberals. Yet they defend basically the same corporate economic policies as the so-called conservative Republicans. Some of them don't realize what they are supporting because the media tends to zoom in and exaggerate small differences between the two parties, or between "liberals" and "conservatives".

It's bad when Republicans do it. But when Democrats do it, it is worse. Because most of the liberals go along.

For example when Democrats close or privatize public schools. Or when they support corporate driven global trade deals. Or when they approve drilling permits for extreme & controversial energy projects like fracking. Or increase coal and gas exports. Or when they try to cut Social Security benefits. When they increase weapons exports to record highs. Or collect our phone and email records. Enough said.

It's worse when Democrats do it. It doesn't matter as much what conservatives do. It's a much bigger problem that Democrats are supporting the neoliberal agenda, the corporate agenda. Because it effectively means that our viewpoint has no serious representation in the political process. Even though I think that if you look at opinion polls I think you'll find many of our ideas are pretty popular.

We certainly deserve at least some representation. Now that the Dems have completely gone over to the other side we are locked out of the political process.

I'm not saying the answer is just to blame Democrats. Instead we should build workers' power and organize community power to have influence. So we can pressure the government and companies, and especially the Democrats, to make them do what we want.

---------

PS. I don't disagree with your OP. I agree but am just saying another way of looking at it. The right wing or conservative half of the country is a real factor and it is important to be realistic about them, and consider that they do have a lot of power. But the response to their insanity should never be to become more like them. The Democrats' politicians often avoid supporting progressive issues because they don't want to be targeted by corporate money in the election campaigns. And/or they want to get some of that money themselves. That's a big problem because it leaves us without much political representation.

[leftstreet]

34. WHERE are you the getting 40% figure?

[Bluenorthwest]

37. That's my question. He has not answered it. I just want to see a US poll that uses the term

'radical leftist' at all.

[leftstreet]

40. Yeah I can't imagine a poll using that term

[Bluenorthwest]

42. Of course not.

Doug's riffing.

[Motown_Johnny]

44. and 46% believe in Creationism

What's your point?



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/05/americans-believe-in-creationism_n_1571127.html


^snip^

46% Americans Believe In Creationism According To Latest Gallup Poll



?8




OK, fine.. a Gallup poll and a Huff po link. Even so.......

[truebluegreen]

45. 40% of America thinks the earth is a few thousand years old,

the Founders were Conservatives, the polls in the last election were skewed and voter fraud is a huge problem, and climate change is a hoax. We are never going to get those votes.

The Democratic Party should be pushing real lefty solutions and showing that they work in the states that they control, and not just roll over for the neoliberal stance that is the corporatist wing of the Democratic Party. As you said, the Liberals are the safety valve, the middle. We need a left wing. The RWNJ are going to call us names regardless, but the younger generation doesn't fear "socialism", they think it sounds a lot better than what we have now.

[Douglas Carpenter]

48. I agree 100%

[DCBob]

47. No doubt this country is severly divided.

I am frustrated and disappointed that Obama was not able to better unite this country. I thought he might be able to do that.. but RW media and big money and big corp made sure that did not happen. There are still 3+ years left but Im not too optimistic.

[Oakenshield]

50. *snort* Radical leftist?

Yeah, I wish. He's another middle of the road Democrat. Practically Republican on some issues.

[Scootaloo]

51. Well, I don't know what percentage of the nation agrees with me...

but I WISH the dude was a radical leftist.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

52. Pure propaganda. 40% of the American public cannot be that daffy.

[Skittles]

62. I am guessing you do not live in Texas

[AnotherMcIntosh]

65. Good guess.

[1-Old-Man]

53. I seriously doubt that very many of them could tell you why they believe that tripe

I suppose many of them could give you their definition of what constitutes a radical as well as a liberal and it might make some sense, but if you were to ask them why they consider President Obama to be both they simply couldn't do it. Ask them for facts and you'll see they have none - just a belief. That can only come from one place, the modern entertainment/news/opninion/communicaitons network. It is FOX News and the History Channel, its every crappy movie that relies on sex and violence to bring in revnue, its the churches that preach hate disguised as social propriety, and it is a nation of poorly educated sheep that put up with it.

And their lives are shit and they can't figure out why and the complex tells them its the black guy and so sure, he's a Radical Liberal and that's why little Johnny has been arrested 5 times and there hasn't been a raise in three years and the bills, sweet Jesus, the bills. Its got to be someone's fault.

[Douglas Carpenter]

73. I'm sure you're right - very, very few could explain why they think that way

In many cases it is simply what they think everyone knows. One of my coworkers just yesterday said that Obama had to be a Muslim because he was raised in Indonesia and in Indonesia it is against the law to be any religion except Muslim. Of course none of that is true. But he just thought this is common knowledge. To many people it is common knowledge that the President is a Marxist. Of course this is all crazy. But in many circles it is still common knowledge.

[Phlem]

54. that is to fucked up to not be true.

I live with that 40% Republican exceptionalism.

It's a wonder why I haven't cracked my skull.



-p

[ErikJ]

56. Yet they accuse him of taking more from Wall Street than mcCain/Romney did

which is true, for McCain anyway. But Wall Street IS pure capitalism. Why would the pure capitalists give him so much money if he was an anti-capitalist commy?

[a2liberal]

57. It's all in the labeling

when surveyed on actual policies, not labels, the people consistently support progressive policies.

The problem comes when a.) non-progressive policies (like mandatory purchase of corporate health insurance from the companies people hate, other corporate welfare, spying on citizens, etc.) get labeled as liberal/progressive, and b.) scary labels like "death panels" etc. are applied and nobody actively refutes them

[markpkessinger]

61. As I said yesterday to a friend on Facebook . . .

. . . who had posted something about Rand Paul introducing a bill that would effectively outlaw abortion: angry as I am with the President and most elected Demcrats about the corporatist economic policies, the use of drones (ensuring a ready supply of people who have it in for the U.S/ for decades to come, and the burgeoning security state, it is stuff like this (i.e., Rand Paul's bill) that, for the time being at least, keeps me in the Democratic fold. God knows if the GOP were in power, we'd have just as bad or worse on all of those fronts, plus the racist, misogynistic and homophobic social policy of the GOP to boot.

That said, it does not mean I am prepared to give this President carte blanche in the areas I believe he has gotten it terribly, terribly wrong.

[Douglas Carpenter]

63. that sums up how I look at it to the T

Sometimes I am attacked for being anti-Obama. Sometimes I am attacked for being pro-Obama. The truth is I am somewhere between an unreconstructed McGovern Democrat and a left-wing Social Democrat. But since we only rarely have the option of voting for that point of view without increasing the likelihood of electing REAL right-wing crazies - I will support the most electable candidates who are the most progressive. When that is not available I will support the most electable candidates who are the least reactionary. I just don't know what alternative there is except to approach it that way. I can continue to speak out for progressive ideal and against the surveillance state and against the drone program and any other reactionary polices regardless who is in office or what they are labeled as.

[markpkessinger]

64. Exactly . . .

. . . I have had folks who have tried to convince me to go the third party route, but so far, I have yet to see any third party option that is remotely viable electorally speaking. So, in the words of Martin Luther, "Hier stehe ich. Ich kann nicht anders. Gott helfe mir."

[Douglas Carpenter]

66. oh that Martin Luther

Here I stand. I can do no other. God Help me! -

[Bonobo]

68. Actually that's the real danger because...

It represents how this false perception (on both sides) can only lead to a shift further to the right.

By falsely presenting or perceiving, as the case may be, Obama on the left of the equation, we have reset the spectrum so that what used to be center is now considered left, thereby moving the whole thing to the right.

Clinton did essentially the same thing and now it is worse.

Now, "planning" to pull out of a war after more than a decade -while escalating drone attacks across the globe-is considered an "anti-war" achievement!

[Douglas Carpenter]

69. yeah I know.. it is depressing

I can't imagine singing folk songs about minimizing the growth in the income gap or perhaps ... "All we are saying is give drones a chance"

[steve2470]

70. Poll: 55% of Likely Voters Think Obama Is a Socialist (from 2010)

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/07/poll-55-of-likely-voters-think-obama-is-a-socialist/59463/

From 2010. Bad polling, I have no clue. It could well be much lower now.

eta: Anyone who thinks President Obama is a socialist has no idea what a socialist really is.

[steve2470]

71. June 2013 results from Pew

http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/19/obama-job-approval-holds-steady-economic-views-improve/

[TheKentuckian]

72. Why waste a moment's thought on that utterly unreachable block?

The alternative to today's captured Democratic party is tomorrow's put in place by relentless weeding of our garden.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

74. Most leftists strongly disagree with that assessment.

He's a self-confessed centrist.